You're using Defense Curl first.cookie said:You might as well use Choice Band.
You're using Defense Curl first.cookie said:You might as well use Choice Band.
Well, with Choice Band you can't Defense Curl first to set up Rollout. Besides, one could do a far more practical CB set without Rollout.
[EDIT] Dang, beaten by Burn Jack and PM.
If Boa's calculations for Rollout are accurate, than I certainly could see myself using that set.
Off topic, but I believe Golem could do that much better as he gets STAB Rollout and Defense Curl. He can also Explode, but it does not reach the Big Bang like proportion of Lickilicky. Just a thought here...
I find it funny alot of people overlook this fact but Lickilicky is one of the bulkiest things in the entire game. Its because of this I find it highly dissapointing nobody even notices or even bothers to suggest building into its defenses abit. Lickilicky's defenses are actually superior to even Garchomp and Dragonite.
I can guess some will be laughing but most are de-sensitized to their absolutely bulky defenses due to the prominent 4x weaknesses they share.
For example a neutral Lickilicky can easily reach 250 defense and 404HP with only a small helping of EV's. Whats significant about that you ask?
An extreme of adamant, 252 atk Garchomp STAB EQ does less than 50% maximum on Lickilicky with that spread. Thats some serious bulkiness to be taking brutal assaults like that and shrug them straight off.
Another interesting fact is that if you go for an absolute extreme spread of 252HP/252+Def Lickilicky's defenses are exactly the same as maxhp/def Skarmory. They'll both take the exact same damage from a max adamant T-Tar Stone Edge.
More interestingly is Lickilicky's ability to learn both Amnesia and Curse as possible buffs.
Just some random observations, but Lickilicky actually has the ability to be both a physical or a special sponge. In fact probably more of a special sponge since it at least has no weakness and one immunity on that side.
u could make it brave with no EVs, hold a black steel orb, gyro ball speedy things with 150 pwr (not that return would do less) and if you encounter a ghost, well, hurl the orb for a 130 (135?) base SE hit...and explode next turn...not many things can pull a gyro ball-hurl-explosion combo lol
...do not take this too seriously
by the way
posted on november, 28th, 2006 :D
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302944&postcount=30
Lickilicky's advantage however, is the fact that it can do both physical and special at the same time, and then explode afterwards. Thats where this discussion should probably focus on. He is not a specialist like Skarm, Miltank or Snorelax. He is a jack-of-all trades, master of Explosion.
Lickilicky can last longer though, due to his Normal typing (and better Special Defense), and Rollout requires a few turns to get powerful.
To further add onto that jack of all trades comment. His special attack is only 5 base lower than his attack.
Boa, I like your Rollout set, too, but I'm not sure it does quite as much damage as all that. Fury Cutter doubles in power with every hit, but I don't think Rollout does. I think (but I could be wrong) that the normal power succession of Rollout is 30, 60, 90, 120, 150. With Defense Curl, I imagine it moves up to 60, 90, 120, 150, 150 or 60, 120, 150, 150, 150. I put 150 as the cap here because even though I don't know the actual Base Power cap, I'm pretty sure one exists.
Also, we should test to make sure that Metronome considers each round of Rollout to be a new attack. It's possible that it only 'activates' each time the move is selected. I'd guess that each hit counts for a new boost, but I'm honestly not certain.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21870[NAME]
Rollout
[SHORT DESC]
Doubles in power with each hit. Repeats for 5 turns.
[LONG DESC]
Doubles in power with each consecutive hit. Locks the user into it for 5 turns. If the user selects Rollout after this 5th turn, it returns to base power for the next turn.
Please, please, PLEASE read the descriptions of the sets. Rollout's power is doubled when it is preceded by Defense Curl, and this is impossible with a choice band, making rollout much weaker when using a choice band.Why use Metronome with Rollout when you can't switch attacks anyway? You might as well use Choice Band.
[NAME]
Defense Curl
[SHORT DESC]
Raises Def one stage.
[LONG DESC]
Raises user's Defense one stage. Doubles the power of Rollout and Ice Ball for as long as the user is in the battle.
That's bullshit. Snorlax's Physical defence isn't near Lickilicky's, and his spdef isn't too much higher (though it is significant). Snorlax has higher attack, but abysmal SpAtk, and even lower speed than Licki, while getting some extra HP.Snorelax is 4 tiers higher than Lickilicky when it comes to special attacks, and also learns Curse and amnesia. With higher attack, similar defenses and a significantly higher SpDef... Snorelax appears to outclass Lickilicky in the sponge department. I don't think we need to talk about Blissey when it comes to special sponges.
That's the kind of stuff I like to hear, people are liking these sets! :DBack on topic, I like the Me First/paralisis set for reasons Dragontamer posted. It kinda makes the most of Lickilicky's virtues. I'm stealing it.
Admittedly, Golem's typing and Sdef hinder it a lot (Sdef can be sort of fixed with Sandstorm, but x4 weakness to Grass and Water is not sexy at all). However, I does not take too much to start dealing some damage. After Defense Curl, Rollout starts as a 90 BP move thanks to STAB, and it only gets stronger. That's just two turns needed to wreck havoc on your opponent, provided all possible counters are taken care of and Rollout does not miss. However, to be hopelessly locked on a move with shacky acc. makes Rollout sets a gimick for all eternity.
Back on topic, I like the Me First/paralisis set for reasons Dragontamer posted. It kinda makes the most of Lickilicky's virtues. I'm stealing it.
On the subject of Rollout, how do you think the Zoom Lens would help? 20% more accuracy makes Rollout's accuracy above 100%, Wide Lens makes it 99%.
With only 3 types who resist (Fighting, ground, Steel), and the fact that after they switch in the "counter" the attack doubles in strength (effectively removing any chance of a "true" resist aside from Lucario or Steelix)... I think the virtue of Rollout is being missed here.
Rock is arguably the best kind of attack type to be locked into.
On the subject of Rollout, how do you think the Zoom Lens would help? 20% more accuracy makes Rollout's accuracy above 100%, Wide Lens makes it 99%.
With only 3 types who resist (Fighting, ground, Steel), and the fact that after they switch in the "counter" the attack doubles in strength (effectively removing any chance of a "true" resist aside from Lucario or Steelix)... I think the virtue of Rollout is being missed here.
Rock is arguably the best kind of attack type to be locked into.
That's bullshit. Snorlax's Physical defence isn't near Lickilicky's, and his spdef isn't too much higher (though it is significant). Snorlax has higher attack, but abysmal SpAtk, and even lower speed than Licki, while getting some extra HP.
Snorlax is like Lickilicky, but with stats skewed one way or another and lowered speed. Lickilicky is like an averaged-out Snorlax.
Well, I think I'd prefer Dragon-type, all things being equal, but you're right about Rock not being awful. :-D As far as item goes, I'd definitely put Wide Lens on any Pokemon with Rollout. Zoom Lens probably isn't necessary unless your opponent is raising evasiveness or has BrightPowder, etc. There are times where you'll be going before the opponent, so I'd prefer Wide Lens overall.
Foresty, I don't think that many people are overlooking Lickitung's bulkiness. When I train one, though, I'm likely to max HP and leave the defenses alone, maximizing my return on my EVs. Unless Explosion is my only damaging move, I'd rather spend the other half of my EVs on either Attack, Sp Attack, or both, depending on the build.
That's all true, I suppose. I was simply saying that you make it sound like Snorlax outclasses Lickilicky in every way, while that couldn't be much further from reality.
Your numbers are nice. I guess on my Rollout set I might drop explosion for Amnesia, giving Lickilicky *amazing* spdef, far better def than Snorlax (thanks to the mandatory Defense curl, or even 2-3 if I feel they're needed and I'm not risking anything). This is of course because the Rollout set is in need of major survivability, which includes not only type coverage in the form of my 120bp filler but good defenses; And as much as I hate to say it, denying Licki that 2x spdef when he needs it is just cruel.
Amnesia is mostly there as an afterthought, in case the foe is setting up or switching or what-have-you.A thought on the Rollout set:
Say someone uses Haze while using DC Rollout, does that halve Rollout's power or is Rollout permanently doubled just by using DC?
Now, although Amnesia is very helpful, it would now take 3 turns to get Rollout going, and 4-5 to start dealing significant damage. It just takes to much to set up, and it's not like you have any means to recover lost damage while setting up, nor will you have any chance to do so when using Rollout.
Regardless, Lickilicky's threat of explosion is so big that it will still serve to your advantage.
Oh, and I didn't want to make Snorelax appear better, Lickilicky is a totally different pokemon. I was just pointing out that Lickilicky's niche as a "Special Sponge" is non-existent. Lickilicky needs to focus on his strengths, and not on the strengths of Snorelax and Blissey. And arguably, Snorelax's place as a sponge is now gone as choice specs arrive in this generation :-/
Rock == super effective on 4 types. Dragon == only on 1 :-p
With the LickiLicky set, we're looking at a base 50 Speed. Zoom Lens cover that 1% that may screw you over (hell... the .4% miss rate of swift in RBY screwed me over... in Mewtwo vs Mewtwo battles (Swift is the only way to break through Amnesia back then)).
I guess it is a preference thing. Then again... I have double-hit on my Ambipom right now so who am I to complain about that 1%? :-p
Thats something that irks me though is the whole maxing HP and leaving defenses alone since for one thing your not actually optimizing defenses. Lickilicky doesn't actually have a need for absolutely maxing out HP it doesn't make a good use of its even stats.
Just to make my point.
You say you maxed HP and left your defense alone right.
You get attacked by that 394 attack STAB EQ which does 45-52% damage on you with your 424HP and 226 defense. 252HP/0Def.
However you can remove that 96 EV's (24 points) from HP into defense to give 250def and 400HP. That same attack now only does 43-50%.
I wanted to say that to him, but couldn't find the proper words. Thank you.Foresty, I'm sorry this irks you, but if you want to maximize Lickilicky's total defensive capability, you need to max out HP in order to get it as close as possible to 2x its defenses. If you're just trying to optimize one defense over the other, than yeah, you want HP and that defense stat to be equal, so you'll pump the defense stat. You may want to make Lickilicky a physical wall or a special wall, but my style when the base defenses are equal is to optimize total defense. In this case, that means maxing HP.
So, you can optimize physical defenses, like you did above, but you're leaving yourself open to special attacks.