STAB Explosion (Lickilicky Discussion)

Well, with Choice Band you can't Defense Curl first to set up Rollout. Besides, one could do a far more practical CB set without Rollout.

[EDIT] Dang, beaten by Burn Jack and PM.

If Boa's calculations for Rollout are accurate, than I certainly could see myself using that set.

Off topic, but I believe Golem could do that much better as he gets STAB Rollout and Defense Curl. He can also Explode, but it does not reach the Big Bang like proportion of Lickilicky. Just a thought here...
 
Well, with Choice Band you can't Defense Curl first to set up Rollout. Besides, one could do a far more practical CB set without Rollout.

[EDIT] Dang, beaten by Burn Jack and PM.

If Boa's calculations for Rollout are accurate, than I certainly could see myself using that set.

Off topic, but I believe Golem could do that much better as he gets STAB Rollout and Defense Curl. He can also Explode, but it does not reach the Big Bang like proportion of Lickilicky. Just a thought here...

Lickilicky can last longer though, due to his Normal typing (and better Special Defense), and Rollout requires a few turns to get powerful.
 
I find it funny alot of people overlook this fact but Lickilicky is one of the bulkiest things in the entire game. Its because of this I find it highly dissapointing nobody even notices or even bothers to suggest building into its defenses abit. Lickilicky's defenses are actually superior to even Garchomp and Dragonite.

I can guess some will be laughing but most are de-sensitized to their absolutely bulky defenses due to the prominent 4x weaknesses they share.

For example a neutral Lickilicky can easily reach 250 defense and 404HP with only a small helping of EV's. Whats significant about that you ask?

An extreme of adamant, 252 atk Garchomp STAB EQ does less than 50% maximum on Lickilicky with that spread. Thats some serious bulkiness to be taking brutal assaults like that and shrug them straight off.

Another interesting fact is that if you go for an absolute extreme spread of 252HP/252+Def Lickilicky's defenses are exactly the same as maxhp/def Skarmory. They'll both take the exact same damage from a max adamant T-Tar Stone Edge.

Looking at the defense tiers list

Lickilicky: 118.66 118.66 123.90 123.90
Skarmory : 119.17 113.03 124.25 119.39

They are close alright, only .3 tiers off when they have a 255/255 spread, and only .5 tiers off with the 0/0 spread... with LickyLicky's better SpDef to boot.

Not the "exact same damage", but damn close alright. The difference however is Roost and a huge amount of resistances and two immunities. 4x grass and bug, immune to earthquake and poison, 2x normal, flying, dark, psychic, ghost and the list just goes on and on.

I mean, I can point out that T-Tar has _better_ defenses than Skarmory

Tyranitar : 119.37 118.52 124.43 123.75

But similarly, other circumstances clearly make Skarm the better physical wall.

More interestingly is Lickilicky's ability to learn both Amnesia and Curse as possible buffs.

Just some random observations, but Lickilicky actually has the ability to be both a physical or a special sponge. In fact probably more of a special sponge since it at least has no weakness and one immunity on that side.

Aura Sphere and Focus Blast :-p Remember the special/physical split.

And as for the special sponge thing, I'd think Snorelax outclasses him here.

Lickilicky: 118.66 118.66 123.90 123.90
Snorlax : 117.99 122.53 123.67 127.16

Snorelax is 4 tiers higher than Lickilicky when it comes to special attacks, and also learns Curse and amnesia. With higher attack, similar defenses and a significantly higher SpDef... Snorelax appears to outclass Lickilicky in the sponge department. I don't think we need to talk about Blissey when it comes to special sponges.

For physical tank, Miltank clearly outclasses Lickilicky.

Miltank : 118.64 115.13 123.83 121.13

Virtually the same physical defense in both 0/0 and 255/255 +nature spreads, while learning "Milk Drink" and having 100 base speed... along with Curse if you need it.

Lickilicky's advantage however, is the fact that it can do both physical and special at the same time, and then explode afterwards. Thats where this discussion should probably focus on. He is not a specialist like Skarm, Miltank or Snorelax. He is a jack-of-all trades, master of Explosion.
 
by the way

u could make it brave with no EVs, hold a black steel orb, gyro ball speedy things with 150 pwr (not that return would do less) and if you encounter a ghost, well, hurl the orb for a 130 (135?) base SE hit...and explode next turn...not many things can pull a gyro ball-hurl-explosion combo lol

...do not take this too seriously

posted on november, 28th, 2006 :D

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302944&postcount=30
 
Lickilicky's advantage however, is the fact that it can do both physical and special at the same time, and then explode afterwards. Thats where this discussion should probably focus on. He is not a specialist like Skarm, Miltank or Snorelax. He is a jack-of-all trades, master of Explosion.

To further add onto that jack of all trades comment. His special attack is only 5 base lower than his attack.
 
Lickilicky can last longer though, due to his Normal typing (and better Special Defense), and Rollout requires a few turns to get powerful.

Admittedly, Golem's typing and Sdef hinder it a lot (Sdef can be sort of fixed with Sandstorm, but x4 weakness to Grass and Water is not sexy at all). However, I does not take too much to start dealing some damage. After Defense Curl, Rollout starts as a 90 BP move thanks to STAB, and it only gets stronger. That's just two turns needed to wreck havoc on your opponent, provided all possible counters are taken care of and Rollout does not miss. However, to be hopelessly locked on a move with shacky acc. makes Rollout sets a gimick for all eternity.

Back on topic, I like the Me First/paralisis set for reasons Dragontamer posted. It kinda makes the most of Lickilicky's virtues. I'm stealing it.
 
Never said you could, but it at least means if you go physical mixed you can still give Skarmory or Tangela whats coming to them with a Fire Blast to save your Explosion for something more dangerous.
 
Boa, I like your Rollout set, too, but I'm not sure it does quite as much damage as all that. Fury Cutter doubles in power with every hit, but I don't think Rollout does. I think (but I could be wrong) that the normal power succession of Rollout is 30, 60, 90, 120, 150. With Defense Curl, I imagine it moves up to 60, 90, 120, 150, 150 or 60, 120, 150, 150, 150. I put 150 as the cap here because even though I don't know the actual Base Power cap, I'm pretty sure one exists.

Also, we should test to make sure that Metronome considers each round of Rollout to be a new attack. It's possible that it only 'activates' each time the move is selected. I'd guess that each hit counts for a new boost, but I'm honestly not certain.
[NAME]
Rollout
[SHORT DESC]
Doubles in power with each hit. Repeats for 5 turns.
[LONG DESC]
Doubles in power with each consecutive hit. Locks the user into it for 5 turns. If the user selects Rollout after this 5th turn, it returns to base power for the next turn.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21870

Why use Metronome with Rollout when you can't switch attacks anyway? You might as well use Choice Band.
Please, please, PLEASE read the descriptions of the sets. Rollout's power is doubled when it is preceded by Defense Curl, and this is impossible with a choice band, making rollout much weaker when using a choice band.
[NAME]
Defense Curl
[SHORT DESC]
Raises Def one stage.
[LONG DESC]
Raises user's Defense one stage. Doubles the power of Rollout and Ice Ball for as long as the user is in the battle.

Snorelax is 4 tiers higher than Lickilicky when it comes to special attacks, and also learns Curse and amnesia. With higher attack, similar defenses and a significantly higher SpDef... Snorelax appears to outclass Lickilicky in the sponge department. I don't think we need to talk about Blissey when it comes to special sponges.
That's bullshit. Snorlax's Physical defence isn't near Lickilicky's, and his spdef isn't too much higher (though it is significant). Snorlax has higher attack, but abysmal SpAtk, and even lower speed than Licki, while getting some extra HP.
Snorlax is like Lickilicky, but with stats skewed one way or another and lowered speed. Lickilicky is like an averaged-out Snorlax.

Back on topic, I like the Me First/paralisis set for reasons Dragontamer posted. It kinda makes the most of Lickilicky's virtues. I'm stealing it.
That's the kind of stuff I like to hear, people are liking these sets! :D

Golem: Yes, Golem makes a good STAB DC-Rollout, just like Walrein makes a good STAB DC-Ice Ball (which is arguably better). The problem is that neither of them have great defenses or much staying power, with major weaknesses to the most common attacks like Fighting and Grass.
 
Admittedly, Golem's typing and Sdef hinder it a lot (Sdef can be sort of fixed with Sandstorm, but x4 weakness to Grass and Water is not sexy at all). However, I does not take too much to start dealing some damage. After Defense Curl, Rollout starts as a 90 BP move thanks to STAB, and it only gets stronger. That's just two turns needed to wreck havoc on your opponent, provided all possible counters are taken care of and Rollout does not miss. However, to be hopelessly locked on a move with shacky acc. makes Rollout sets a gimick for all eternity.

Back on topic, I like the Me First/paralisis set for reasons Dragontamer posted. It kinda makes the most of Lickilicky's virtues. I'm stealing it.

On the subject of Rollout, how do you think the Zoom Lens would help? 20% more accuracy makes Rollout's accuracy above 100%, Wide Lens makes it 99%.

With only 3 types who resist (Fighting, ground, Steel), and the fact that after they switch in the "counter" the attack doubles in strength (effectively removing any chance of a "true" resist aside from Lucario or Steelix)... I think the virtue of Rollout is being missed here.

Rock is arguably the best kind of attack type to be locked into.
 
Foresty, I don't think that many people are overlooking Lickitung's bulkiness. When I train one, though, I'm likely to max HP and leave the defenses alone, maximizing my return on my EVs. Unless Explosion is my only damaging move, I'd rather spend the other half of my EVs on either Attack, Sp Attack, or both, depending on the build.

On the subject of Rollout, how do you think the Zoom Lens would help? 20% more accuracy makes Rollout's accuracy above 100%, Wide Lens makes it 99%.

With only 3 types who resist (Fighting, ground, Steel), and the fact that after they switch in the "counter" the attack doubles in strength (effectively removing any chance of a "true" resist aside from Lucario or Steelix)... I think the virtue of Rollout is being missed here.

Rock is arguably the best kind of attack type to be locked into.

Well, I think I'd prefer Dragon-type, all things being equal, but you're right about Rock not being awful. :-D As far as item goes, I'd definitely put Wide Lens on any Pokemon with Rollout. Zoom Lens probably isn't necessary unless your opponent is raising evasiveness or has BrightPowder, etc. There are times where you'll be going before the opponent, so I'd prefer Wide Lens overall.
 
On the subject of Rollout, how do you think the Zoom Lens would help? 20% more accuracy makes Rollout's accuracy above 100%, Wide Lens makes it 99%.

With only 3 types who resist (Fighting, ground, Steel), and the fact that after they switch in the "counter" the attack doubles in strength (effectively removing any chance of a "true" resist aside from Lucario or Steelix)... I think the virtue of Rollout is being missed here.

Rock is arguably the best kind of attack type to be locked into.

Y'know... simply because of the accuracy increase, I'd choose Zoom Lens/Wide Lens as the item of choice on any given Rollout/Ice Ball set. They already hit hard as is to need Metronome, don't you think?
 
That's bullshit. Snorlax's Physical defence isn't near Lickilicky's, and his spdef isn't too much higher (though it is significant). Snorlax has higher attack, but abysmal SpAtk, and even lower speed than Licki, while getting some extra HP.
Snorlax is like Lickilicky, but with stats skewed one way or another and lowered speed. Lickilicky is like an averaged-out Snorlax.

First off, you are the first person to challenge the validity of my Defense Charts. So I do believe this argument has great importance to me :-) Not saying you're wrong or anything, I just recently made these defense tier charts... I'm just stating how things are comming from my perspective.

My tier charts combine both HP and defense into a single score. Because of Snorelax's huge HP, its physical defenses are not that much lower than Lickilicky's, and its special defenses are significantly higher. 4 tiers is a lot. That is approximately the effect of a defense curl, or the removal of someone's choice specs.

So lets see, my numbers again are:

Lickilicky: 118.66 118.66 123.90 123.90
Snorlax : 117.99 122.53 123.67 127.16

So that puts Lickilicky .67 tiers higher than Snorelax in Defense in 0/0 EVs, and Snorelax 3.93 tiers higher in Sp. Defense. I estimate a difference of about 5% damage in defense, and about 40% difference in Special Damage.

So for Defense, here is a LickiLicky Rollout on the two guys, and then a Porygon-Z Tri-Attack. We are comparing a 0/0 spread with neutral nature.

http://pokemon.marriland.com/damage.php was used for damage calculation

PorygonZ:
405 Atk (255 + Modest). 80 BP + STAB for Tri-Attack

Lickilicky:
361 HP
269 Atk (255 EVs in Atk). 60 BP for a Rollout after Defense Curl
223 Def
223 Sp. Def

(LickiLicky Rollout) That attack will do between 53 and 63 damage!
Or... 14.6% to 17.45% damage.

(PorygonZ TriAttack) That attack will do between 158 and 186 damage!
Or... 43% to 51% damage.

Snorelax:
461 HP
166 Def
256 Sp. Def
(LickiLicky Rollout) That attack will do between 71 and 84 damage!
Or... 15.4% to 18.2% damage

(PorygonZ TriAttack) That attack will do between 138 and 162 damage!
Or... 30% to 35% damage.

(14.68 * 1.05) == 15.4% damage. Well what do you know? My estimation that Snorelax will take 5% more % damage was correct :-p

Now for Tri-Attack... I estimated LickiLicky taking 40% more % damage. (30% * 1.40) == 42% damage. Lickilicky takes 43% minimum. So I'm also correct here :-p

Again, Snorelax is a significantly better special wall, and not that much worse of a physical wall... at least according to Marriland's damage calculator and my Tier list.

EDIT: If you are going to do one with Garchomp Earthquake or something like that, I'd be interested in the results also. :-)
 
Well, I think I'd prefer Dragon-type, all things being equal, but you're right about Rock not being awful. :-D As far as item goes, I'd definitely put Wide Lens on any Pokemon with Rollout. Zoom Lens probably isn't necessary unless your opponent is raising evasiveness or has BrightPowder, etc. There are times where you'll be going before the opponent, so I'd prefer Wide Lens overall.

Rock == super effective on 4 types. Dragon == only on 1 :-p

With the LickiLicky set, we're looking at a base 50 Speed. Zoom Lens cover that 1% that may screw you over (hell... the .4% miss rate of swift in RBY screwed me over... in Mewtwo vs Mewtwo battles (Swift is the only way to break through Amnesia back then)).

I guess it is a preference thing. Then again... I have double-hit on my Ambipom right now so who am I to complain about that 1%? :-p
 
Foresty, I don't think that many people are overlooking Lickitung's bulkiness. When I train one, though, I'm likely to max HP and leave the defenses alone, maximizing my return on my EVs. Unless Explosion is my only damaging move, I'd rather spend the other half of my EVs on either Attack, Sp Attack, or both, depending on the build.

Thats something that irks me though is the whole maxing HP and leaving defenses alone since for one thing your not actually optimizing defenses. Lickilicky doesn't actually have a need for absolutely maxing out HP it doesn't make a good use of its even stats.

Just to make my point.

You say you maxed HP and left your defense alone right.

You get attacked by that 394 attack STAB EQ which does 45-52% damage on you with your 424HP and 226 defense. 252HP/0Def.

However you can remove that 96 EV's (24 points) from HP into defense to give 250def and 400HP. That same attack now only does 43-50%.
 
That's all true, I suppose. I was simply saying that you make it sound like Snorlax outclasses Lickilicky in every way, while that couldn't be much further from reality.

Your numbers are nice. I guess on my Rollout set I might drop explosion for Amnesia, giving Lickilicky *amazing* spdef, far better def than Snorlax (thanks to the mandatory Defense curl, or even 2-3 if I feel they're needed and I'm not risking anything). This is of course because the Rollout set is in need of major survivability, which includes not only type coverage in the form of my 120bp filler but good defenses; And as much as I hate to say it, denying Licki that 2x spdef when he needs it is just cruel.
 
A thought on the Rollout set:

Say someone uses Haze while using DC Rollout, does that halve Rollout's power or is Rollout permanently doubled just by using DC?

Now, although Amnesia is very helpful, it would now take 3 turns to get Rollout going, and 4-5 to start dealing significant damage. It just takes to much to set up, and it's not like you have any means to recover lost damage while setting up, nor will you have any chance to do so when using Rollout.
 
That's all true, I suppose. I was simply saying that you make it sound like Snorlax outclasses Lickilicky in every way, while that couldn't be much further from reality.

Your numbers are nice. I guess on my Rollout set I might drop explosion for Amnesia, giving Lickilicky *amazing* spdef, far better def than Snorlax (thanks to the mandatory Defense curl, or even 2-3 if I feel they're needed and I'm not risking anything). This is of course because the Rollout set is in need of major survivability, which includes not only type coverage in the form of my 120bp filler but good defenses; And as much as I hate to say it, denying Licki that 2x spdef when he needs it is just cruel.

Regardless, Lickilicky's threat of explosion is so big that it will still serve to your advantage.

Oh, and I didn't want to make Snorelax appear better, Lickilicky is a totally different pokemon. I was just pointing out that Lickilicky's niche as a "Special Sponge" is non-existent. Lickilicky needs to focus on his strengths, and not on the strengths of Snorelax and Blissey. And arguably, Snorelax's place as a sponge is now gone as choice specs arrive in this generation :-/
 
A thought on the Rollout set:

Say someone uses Haze while using DC Rollout, does that halve Rollout's power or is Rollout permanently doubled just by using DC?

Now, although Amnesia is very helpful, it would now take 3 turns to get Rollout going, and 4-5 to start dealing significant damage. It just takes to much to set up, and it's not like you have any means to recover lost damage while setting up, nor will you have any chance to do so when using Rollout.
Amnesia is mostly there as an afterthought, in case the foe is setting up or switching or what-have-you.

Haze shouldn't affect it as it's not a stat-up; Just like the speed boost from Unburden or the boost from choice items or life orb can't be passed, hazed, or psychup'd, because it's not a "stage" boost.
 
Regardless, Lickilicky's threat of explosion is so big that it will still serve to your advantage.

Oh, and I didn't want to make Snorelax appear better, Lickilicky is a totally different pokemon. I was just pointing out that Lickilicky's niche as a "Special Sponge" is non-existent. Lickilicky needs to focus on his strengths, and not on the strengths of Snorelax and Blissey. And arguably, Snorelax's place as a sponge is now gone as choice specs arrive in this generation :-/

Snorlax still gets Thick Fat, though, so it can switch in on a Flamethrower/Ice Beam/whatever. A Rest/Sleep Talk set could be the new standard, along with some Special Defense EVs. Could it possibly be used as a Choice Specs Heatran counter, though?

As for Lickilicky, I tried a Special Sponge variety on my first team, and it didn't work well (since I didn't give it Amnesia).

Perhaps this set could work for sheer walling ability (probably stupid, but what the heck)?

Lickilicky
Sassy/Relaxed
EVs uncertain
Leftovers

Curse
Amnesia
Gyro Ball/Power Whip
Explosion

You would only use this once phazers (read: Skarmory) are dead.
 
Boa, I did some tests and you're right about Rollout. It does double in power with every hit and Defense Curl straight-up doubles the power of each hit, including the last one. Sorry for being alarmist!

Rock == super effective on 4 types. Dragon == only on 1 :-p

With the LickiLicky set, we're looking at a base 50 Speed. Zoom Lens cover that 1% that may screw you over (hell... the .4% miss rate of swift in RBY screwed me over... in Mewtwo vs Mewtwo battles (Swift is the only way to break through Amnesia back then)).

I guess it is a preference thing. Then again... I have double-hit on my Ambipom right now so who am I to complain about that 1%? :-p

When I'm using an attack that I can't switch out of, I'm more worried about resistances to it than weaknesses to it, which is why I mentioned Dragon.

I know what you mean about the 1% chance. It's a chance I'd be willing to take, though. I have Wide Lens/Heat Wave on my Ninetales, and that's only missed twice out of who knows how many uses.

Thats something that irks me though is the whole maxing HP and leaving defenses alone since for one thing your not actually optimizing defenses. Lickilicky doesn't actually have a need for absolutely maxing out HP it doesn't make a good use of its even stats.

Just to make my point.

You say you maxed HP and left your defense alone right.

You get attacked by that 394 attack STAB EQ which does 45-52% damage on you with your 424HP and 226 defense. 252HP/0Def.

However you can remove that 96 EV's (24 points) from HP into defense to give 250def and 400HP. That same attack now only does 43-50%.

Foresty, I'm sorry this irks you, but if you want to maximize Lickilicky's total defensive capability, you need to max out HP in order to get it as close as possible to 2x its defenses. If you're just trying to optimize one defense over the other, than yeah, you want HP and that defense stat to be equal, so you'll pump the defense stat. You may want to make Lickilicky a physical wall or a special wall, but my style when the base defenses are equal is to optimize total defense. In this case, that means maxing HP.

So, you can optimize physical defenses, like you did above, but you're leaving yourself open to special attacks.
 
Foresty, I'm sorry this irks you, but if you want to maximize Lickilicky's total defensive capability, you need to max out HP in order to get it as close as possible to 2x its defenses. If you're just trying to optimize one defense over the other, than yeah, you want HP and that defense stat to be equal, so you'll pump the defense stat. You may want to make Lickilicky a physical wall or a special wall, but my style when the base defenses are equal is to optimize total defense. In this case, that means maxing HP.

So, you can optimize physical defenses, like you did above, but you're leaving yourself open to special attacks.
I wanted to say that to him, but couldn't find the proper words. Thank you.
 
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