STAB STABmons [Mamoswine yOINKED]

In The Hills

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Some sets to start because why not
:ss/slurpuff:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Facade / Moonlight / Sticky Web


This set is actually pretty nice in the current metagame. Setting up can be a pain, but once you have set up you outpace everything unboosted, and since scarfers are pretty rare cuz everyone is using Dragapult instead (and most dont even outspeed Unburden'd Slurpuff anyway), you mostly only have to worry about priority. Slurpuff is best used late game when the opponents team is worn down a bit so Slurpuff can get the KOs it needs.

It doesn't particularly like the addition of Terrakion and Keldeo because they can both revenge it if it gets hit too hard setting up, and it doesn't exactly have world class bulk. Other issues include the existence of Corviknight and Strength Sap in general meaning that anything with the move it doesn't OHKO just sits there and wins.

:ss/darmanitan:
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide


I talk about this more down below. This set is broken. You play it by clicking V-Create ~90% of the time, keeping rocks off the field so you can pivot in over and over, and laugh as you 2hko bulky resists. Other coverage is an option I guess, but the only thing I can think of that you'd want is Superpower and that doesn't gain anything over V-Create + EQ. You don't really click your coverage other than U-Turn anyway.

Good support is excellent hazard removal, good pivoting, and Sticky Webs. The first one is pretty mandatory, the second you definitely want but can get away without, and the third is just a nice addition that Darmanitan abuses well. Rotom-W is annoying for this set but if you U-Turn on it and keep rocks up it can't switch in again. Rotom-H is also annoying but you can just Rock Slide it.

...
I've seen some other lit sets the past couple weeks but they're not mine and the people who used them might still want to use them in the open so I'll hold off on posting anything here.


And now meta commentary
:ss/dragapult: Dragapult
I think the time has come to look at Dragapult. It is far too hard to switch into for a Pokemon with such absurdly high Speed. It is splashable on nearly every team, making not preparing for it an impossibility, yet preparing for it bends the structure of teams to a huge degree thanks to its flexibility, amazing dual STAB, and the fact that the very few things that actually outspeed it don't want to eat its hits.

Type: Null and SpD Grimmsnarl are the only two true counters I've seen come up with, neither of which is much good otherwise IMO (Grimmsnarl isn't bad but you'd definitely want another set). Tyranitar is a decent check but far too weak to U-Turn, especially from Band, as well as being vulnerable to being outplayed around Sucker Punch. Otherwise you usually have to run multiple checks or lose.

Pult finds a ton of opportunities to come in, whether as a revenge killer, being pivoted in, or abusing its good defensive typing (s/o :giratina:).

Overall: Pult warps the metagame way too much at the teambuilding level. Every team MUST be prepared for Dragapult, and to do so it must either run one of two very specific things or run multiple rather specific checks. I won't say much more because I know others feel more strongly about this than I, but I think it's time we started the process.
I don't necessarily still agree with all of this. I know that while I still usually run Choice Dragapult, other people have begun to migrate to other sets such as Dragon Dance in addition. This makes relying on Choice lock to check Dragapult not an option. Also Espeed immunity isn't really that relevant any more :X Sucker Punch is, in my experience, the most common priority. This is largely because Dragapult is so common, but also because we have good Dark types like Obstagoon, who only partially take their viability from Dragapult's dominance. Either way it hurts Pult to some degree.



Sylveon is certainly one of the best checks to Dragapult, and a counter to Specs (not with that spread though, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery), but it is, by definition, not a counter to every set, as you yourself showed with your Band calc. I certainly did not forget Sylveon's existence, but I don't believe it's enough to keep Dragapult from being broken.

I will say that I don't think this is necessarily an easy ban. I think a suspect would be a better way forward than a QB for Dragapult in particular.
:ss/victini: V-Create
:darmanitan::cinderace:

V-Create is proving to be a problematic move. It is extremely spammable in this metagame with Toxapex being fairly uncommon, the lack of Pursuit making Tyranitar incapable of punishing the defense drops, and most of the other resists being too frail to reliably take the V-Creates or coverage of the two primary abusers.

Most of the primary Dragon-types can't switch into Darmanitan even once
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-347 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-299 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 264-312 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

note that these are all Jolly: Adamant is absolutely an option and confirms many of these KOs that are chances or require rocks now.

Other Fire resists usually die to coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 374-442 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 279-328 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (oh no u need Adamant... or just U-Turn on it once)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 209-246 (51.7 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Much of the counterplay to Darmanitan comes from outspeeding it and guess what! Cinderace is absurdly fast, while still being very difficult to tank hits from.

Rotom-Wash stands out to me as the single thing keeping V-Create in check. With Strength Sap it is capable of surviving the 2hko from both Darmanitan and Cinderace (although respectively Band Rock Slide and High Jump Kick can give you issues if you predict wrong). Obligatory plug for OM Analyses project here and specifically the Rotom-W analysis here :D.

Any team without Rotom-W, Rain, or the ability to keep enough momentum to keep Darmanitan and Cinderace off the field are likely going to lose a mon or be heavily chipped every time they get brought in. Given that they aren't hard to bring in multiple times per match from my experience (pivoting, on Sylveon, on various mons they outspeed) it can be very difficult to keep your team intact with one on the opposing team.

Now the million dollar question... why V-Create and not Darmanitan + Cinderace?
While these two are by far the best and most broken abusers of the move, and Darmanitan's arrival is what I feel has pushed it over the edge, other Pokemon are also capable of abusing the move.
:arcanine::incineroar::centiskorch:
No Flareon because it kinda sucks with no Espeed, use Arcanine

Arcanine, Incineroar, and Centiskorch are all underexplored in the current metagame, largely because the big two physical Fires are much better and easier to use.

Centiskorch has seen use as a Webs setter. I used it on several teams in DIB meta because I'm a degenerate. Webs is still pretty good, and other good setters aren't that abundant. V-Create enables it to hit pretty hard for a utility Pokemon that runs Heavy Duty Boots, but I've found it to be non-teambreaking in general.

Incineroar's speed is low and its Attack is significantly worse than Darmanitan's, but it makes up for that to some degree with access to Sucker Punch. The ability to revenge kill Dragapult (and Gengar) is always nice, and U-Turn + Intimidate is a good combo even if its bulk is only passable. Dark is a good typing in this metagame, even with no Pursuit. Incin also gets a ton of coverage due to being GF's favorite cat wrestler thing, and can run any of EQ, CC, Thunder Punch, or even Outrage if you're desperate to hit Dragon-types. Obviously you can't hit everything at once, but it's obscene levels of coverage mean Pokemon like Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Tyranitar can't be overly confident switching into an unscouted Incineroar.

Arcanine I haven't seen, used, or theorymonned besides thinking it might be the next Flareon with different moves. Might be cool though. CC decimates Rock types and Hydreigon, Espeed is Espeed, STAB V-Create is STAB V-Create.

Overall: I find singlehandedly breaking two mons and pushing at least three more shitmons (sorry skorch) into potential usability is worthy of it being the move rather than the mons.

EDIT: After some discussion about V-Create In The Hills pointed out that Darmanitan still gets Pyro Ball, and still smashes through pretty much everything with it, without lowering Speed or defenses. The lack of recoil compared to Flare Blitz is a huge boon for Darmanitan and lets it spam the move without much fear.

I had more but then i clicked one of the links at the top of my browser and lost them. C'est la vie.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Rotom-Wash: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. Bulletproof Kommo-o: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 182-215 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


So, what I now have to ask: Is Darmanitan the issue, or is V-Create? Is Cinderace problematic enough to constitute a problem on its own without Darmanitan? Would banning V-Create solve the issues Darmanitan is causing?

Overall I think this is still pretty early and I don't want to rush a ban because I haven't actually seen many people abusing the big red ape, and I think Cinderace is still more popular.

Please give us feedback :) The council wants to know what the community thinks
Gonna throw out my agreement with drampa on Dragapult, though I’m slightly more on the fence. I think that Specs is certainly a manageable set stop running specs it sucks, while Band is where I find issue. When you pair having to prep for both of these at the same time, Dragapult is very hard to manage. Top that off with how easy it is to capitalize on limited counterplay with U-Turn to gain momentum, I think the metagame would be better off with Dragapult gone.

Now onto the main part of my post, Darmanitan vs V-Create. While V-Create very well may be an issue, I think that right now it’s much more pressing to focus on Darmanitan, who is a key user of V-Create. Darmanitan is unique in that even though it has V-Create, its other Fire STAB, Pyro Ball, is almost just as threatening, and in some very relevant cases is even better. Sheer Force boosted Pyro Ball has 156 base power before STAB bonus vs V-Create’s 180 BP, and the small drop in power is quickly made up for by the fact that Pyro Ball doesn’t lower Darmanitan’s Speed. This allows Darm to break through checks and without the risk of being outsped the second turn, and reduces the threat of revenge killers. These are some freedoms other V-Create users don’t have. Darmanitan also has better coverage that other V-Create users don’t have with Earthquake and Rock Slide that can break some would-be checks like Tyranitar and defensive Gyarados

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 415-490 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 350-412 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs alone should be more than enough to show that Darm’s breaking capabilities are a step above the average V-Create user. While I can’t say for sure whether V-Create is broken without Darmanitan (leaning towards probably but that’s a bridge we can cross later), I can say for sure that Darmanitan is broken whether we ban V-Create or not.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Quickban Update #5:

:ss/Darmanitan:
Darmanitan has been quickbanned

Thanks to it's access to a recoiless equivalent to Flare Blitz in Pyro Ball (albeit having slightly less accuracy), Darmanitan has been ravishing the tier with both it's Choice Scarf and Choice Band sets. Sheer Force + it's incredible Attack stat enables enables it to 2HKO nearly every switchin in the tier when backed up with a Choice Band, where weather conditions such as Sun further enhance it's wallbreaking capabilities. Access to the incredibly powerful V-Create also enables it to punish more sturdier switchins as well, where foes who are able to tank 2 Pyro Balls usually fail to stomach the boosted power of STAB boosted V-Create. Darmanitan does still suffer from the same issues it's Galarian form faced, mainly due to it's fragility thanks to it's poor bulk and SR weak typing. Also, certain checks such as Bulletroof Physdef Kommo-o do exist and can usually stop Darmanitan from spamming it's STAB and force it to pivot out.

However, Darmanitan still remains to be an incredibly potent threat that provides too much wallbreaking support to a tier with an abundance of already hard hitting threats such as Dragapult, Terrakion, Obstagoon, and Melmetal. We have decided to address Darmanitan first instead of V-Create as the council believed that it is the most potent and potentially sole broken abuser of the move, however we will keep a close eye on other threats who still can use the move to great success such as Cinderace and Centiskorch and will assess if the move itself needs to be looked at down the line. Regardless, the council unanimously agrees that Darmanitan would still be broken even without the presence of V-Create, thus making this an easy decision for us to make.

Here are some calcs / replays of it's power:
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 186-219 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 379-447 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 171-201 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 236 HP / 40 Def Rotom-Heat: 123-144 (41 - 48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(can still use Rock Slide if it predicts correctly)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1065873699
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1070761567
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1070767859

Keep a look out for more updates as the metagame progresses. Have Fun playing!

Kris
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
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Thought I'd post some explanation about some of my votes as to rankings on the recent STABmons viability ranking update. I'm not going to promise to do everything or to write essays about everything, but I thought I should share my reasoning for at least the top couple ranks.

Ranks are sorted by how I voted, not by how the eventual vote went.
:dragapult: Final Result: S
Dragapult is the most dominant offensive threat in the metagame bar none. It's incredibly difficult to switch into, especially if its set hasn't been scouted, provides nearly unparalleled speed control, and has a typing that's awesome both offensively and defensively. There's just nothing that can compare to how easy it is to slap Dragapult on a team and how overall threatening it is to face. Dragapult changes the face of the metagame and every bit deserves its S rank, and I don't think anyone who's played much disagrees at this point.

:kingdra: Final Result: Unranked
I put this here as a joke because I forgot it didn't exist and Hills lol'd at me.

:inthehillssucks: Final Result: In The Hills sucks
In The Hills sucks (yes these two were on my rankings)
:corviknight: Final Result: S
I was the only holdout from ranking Corv in S. While it's certainly a splashable and potent defensive Pokemon, I don't think it can stand up to Dragapult in terms of how effective it is. Pult stands head and shoulders over everything else as far as I'm concerned and I wanted the rankings to reflect that.

:obstagoon: Final Result: A+
Obstagoon is one of the "broken" wallbreakers in the metagame right now. It's absurdly hard to switch into, and while without Extreme Speed it isn't the same cleaner it used to be Sucker Punch allows it to play revenge killer for the meta's OP ghosts (cough Pult cough) while still breaking everything in half with Facade. Its Normal typing is really useful as a soft-counter / check for Dragapult too, especially when paired with Sylveon, another amazing mon. tl;dr hits hard af and is super difficult to counter, Sucker Punch gives it nice utility.

:sylveon: Final Result: A+
I was initially going to place Sylveon at A rather than A+. I feel that its bulk can be a little on the low side for what it often wants to do. Not to say its not an excellent utility and support Pokemon, but I was finding it just a little worse than I wanted out of an A+ mon. However I started using Specs briefly, and faced Life Orb (I'm not recommending btw), and the extra power is really nice in the current metagame, overwhelming Pokemon like Corviknight and even Toxapex (useless mon smh) which try to counter it usually. Sylveon also provides all the insane utility it always does: status support, cleric support, Spin support, normaltypeshavewaytoomanymoves support, and because of Pixilate it's just... so irreplaceable. I still feel that Sylveon sometimes requires more skill to use than something like Chansey which can just sit in front of attacks forever could, but it definitely deserves the A+ for its flexibility, lack of passivity, and the utility that it brings to nearly every team.

:terrakion: Final Result: A+
Broke mon hit hard. Priority make broke mon better sweeper. Terrakion is a known quantity and honestly the main thing that changed this gen is that Diamond Storm hax >>>>>>>> Stone Edge hax. Hardwalls are few on the ground given that Terrak can OHKO Corv after rocks at +2, and faster threats are often not terribly difficult to chip into Accelerock / Mach Punch range. Everyone else agreed and I think this isn't a controversial one overall.

:rotom-heat: Final Result: A
Another one where I was the only person to rank this here, everyone else putting it in A alongside Rotom-W. I find Rotom-H more effective overall in the current metagame than Rotom-W, and while that alone isn't enough to put a rank between them, I think it's justified. Rotom-H is the most reliable / effective counter to several good mons, notably including Sylveon and Corviknight. It's never passive thanks to its absurd movepool, which also grants it all the utility it could want, and the only things really holding it back are average stats and horrific 4mss. Still Heatom has proven itself to be an easy gluemon that can be tailored to most teams. Try Specs btw it's lit.
:rotom-wash: Final Result: A
Rotom-Wash has a lot of the same things going for it as Rotom-Heat, which I ranked in A+. However I find the lack of a Fairy resist, the lack of an Electric resist, and the Grass weakness to be major flaws which aren't made up for by much. The Water resist looks nice on paper but
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 166-196 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
you don't reliably switch into the stuff I really want my fat water resist to. Other than that it's pretty much similar to Heatom; super big movepool, barely enough stats, nice typing. The one thing I really like about Rotom-Wash over Rotom-Heat is that STAB Water moves threaten fire types, such as...

:cinderace: Final Result: A
Cinderace is super threatening offensively. It's not quite on the level of Terrakion or Obstagoon. Counters do exist, and it really really wants super solid hazard removal support. But most Pokemon don't want to tank a V-Create to the face, and Cinderace has the Speed to pull it off.

:kommo-o: Final Result: A
Kommo-o has been a rising star for awhile. It's sort of hard to describe briefly, but Kommo-o can do several very different sets well. It's among the best rocks setters, one of the best Rotom answers, threatening and unpredictable thanks to its different sets, and just overall a flexible threat capable of pulling its weight on many teams and scaring people at team preview. The main three sets I was considering were Iron Defense, Octolock, and Clangorous Soul. Octolock lets Kommo-O scare its would-be checks and counters like Sylveon, forcing them to double around if they think you might have it or trap them unexpectedly if they don't anticipate it. Iron Defense lets Kommo-o check a large portion of the physical metagame, including stuff like Cinderace which is hugely threatening otherwise. Overall: Kommo-o is a great mon. It has its weaknesses, mainly no recovery and literal type weaknesses which can be preyed upon, which prevent it being ranked higher, but it's a very effective mon in the current metagame.

:ferrothorn: Final Result: A
Ferrothorn is, as always, a cornerstone defensive mon and hazard setter. Strength Sap is a great move. Other than that it performs a lot like it does in OU. It's too passive to go in A+ but its typing and bulk are extremely useful for walling some potent Pokemon such as Dracovish. This vote was unanimous.
:aegislash: Final Result: A-
Aegislash is really nice in the current metagame. Terrakion has become really common and Aegislash has proven to be probably the best Pokemon that could be called a counter (although not the most reliable counter). Its Band set is particularly effective, being difficult to switch into and being an effective revenge killer, notably hitting Dragapult hard. Aegislash can come in pretty easily which is nice, and if played well has super-high stats effectively. Unfortunately Aegi is prone to getting worn down, and its low Speed, while a blessing for Stance Change, means it has to tank hits before it attacks unless it clicks priority.

:excadrill: Final Result: A-
Our final unanimous vote of the evening, Excadrill is in the A ranks because it's super hard to switch into thanks to its excellent dual STABs, Mold Breaker ignoring primarily Rotom's levitate but also other abilities, and its ability to boost its speed, and isn't higher because it's walled to death by Corviknight, and Hippowdon to an extent, while several other prominent Pokemon can deal with it more actively and prevent it from setting up. I'm just glad Double Iron Bash is gone.

:clefable: Final Result: B+
Clefable is a tricky mon to rank. It's an excellent Stealth Rock setter and a good check to Kommo-o and Dragapult along with the various other Fairy-weak mons which are ranked highly. Fairy/Fire is excellent coverage, and Clefable has a broad movepool to pick its moves from if you don't want Rocks. However competition from Sylveon is always there, and Clefable just isn't nearly as good here as OU thanks to everything hitting harder. I'm nowhere near confident I was right and am satisfied with B+.

:celebi: Final Result: B+
ITH and Funbot gave me shit for this because I don't run Corviknight enough. Celebi has basically no reliable switchins thanks to Apple Acid and has amazing longevity with Strength Sap. Something like Ferrothorn is just setup bait. Even Pressure Corviknight just gets Strength Sapped and Nasty Plotted on >_>. While its average speed can come up short it can always switch out and come back in again. B+ is underselling its balancebreaking utility I M O.
:zeraora: My Rank: B+ Final Rank: A

This ranking was changed last minute.
We had a big discussion in the council chat about Zeraora. I acknowledge it's a powerful offensive threat, but such things are no strangers to STABmons. Despite its incredible speed I don't see it as equivalent to the Pokemon in the A ranks. It brings next to no defensive utility, has no recovery besides memey Electrify and as such is vulnerable to chip damage (including Life Orb) putting it in range of common priority, and is just overall and effective but not incredible threat. I respectfully acknowledge that the others disagree, and that's why we voted.


I'm not going any lower tonight. I hope I was clear about my thoughts, and didn't veer too much into the realm of "this is what this mon does!"
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like me to clarify on, and I'll slap it in the Other category.

Anyway I'm glad we finally got the ranks up and we really, genuinely want y'alls feedback.

drampa:drampa:
 

drampa's grandpa

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QUICKBAN UPDATE #6

:ss/heliolisk::ss/zeraora:
Electrify has been Quickbanned on non-native learners

Following input from some community members and discussion among the council, we have determined that Electrify is an unhealthy and uncompetitive element in the STABmons metagame.

Electrify's ability to nullify attacks from anything slower combined with passive damage such as Toxic made matches one-sided and prediction reliant, and the primary abuser, Zeraora, outspeeds the viable unboosted metagame, making outpacing it unrealistic without priority in a metagame with few common scarfers.

We discussed Zeraora and whether it was the source of the problem thanks to its excellent Speed tier. However the existence of other abusers, most notably Dracozolt, made us decide that Electrify was the source of the problem and the best choice for a ban.

This ban will NOT effect the current week of OMGS.

Replays:
Chiori Mikami v Morytha

Please let me know if you have any good replays of Electrify, unfortunately I don't have many right now

Tagging The Immortal and Kris
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis the defending Other Metas Circuit Champion
I'll refrain from commenting on stuff outside of the higher ranks because frankly I don't care enough or have the time to try most of them out, but I have a few suggestions on the higher ranks.

:Terrakion: -> A

Okay look I know this is broken and annoying to prep for but I've played a good amount of post-home and this has barely popped up for me. It's not exactly the easiest breaker to fit on teams in my experience despite trying a few times and I just dont think it fits into standard structures very well, which isn't great because the standard structures offer access to some of the best good mons in any tier I've played. Speaking of the so-called "good mons", the top 4 of Pult Sylv Corv and Goon feel more like S and S- ranks than S and A+ ranks because of how consistent and versatile they are, but S- ranks are kinda stupid so I won't make any nom of the sort. I'm mostly making this nom because I don't see Terrak really fitting in with the other insanely good A+ rank mons - it feels like more of an unhealthy threat than an absolute top threat.

:Rotom-Wash: -> A-

I don't feel like Rotoms are all that great in the tier rn but Wash is definitely worse than Heat. While it has versatility in its moveslots (as well as 4MSS) I find it's pretty inflexible to build and play with due to the poor stats making it bleh in a lot of scenarios. There isn't really any good way to EV any of its sets, defensive always sacrifices investment on one side of the spectrum while also being pretty weak whenever it tries to use the likes of Freeze-Dry. Offensive sets just don't make sense to build with most of the time, its bulk ends up being surprisingly poor, speed is lacking, and so is its initial damage. For the most part the major offensive threats can just kinda bypass Rotoms which is annoying, and it tends to lack staying power in the face of whatever breaker comes out next so sometimes you just lose momentum which isnt great in the tier's current state. As Drampa pointed out in the other thread, Washtom's typing is worse than Heattom's against the meta and is more exploitable as a result, so I think it should drop to A-

:Aegislash: -> A

This is one of the better breakers and has a neat niche in being one of the better Terrak/Celebi switchins in the meta, while also avoiding getting smacked by Kommo-o which is a priority for teams running Defensive Sylv to find counterplay against. Both choiced variants are fine but I think the best variant of Aegi is Spell Tag mixed, which both allows you to dodge LO recoil for extra longevity against the aforementioned Terrak/Celebi, and sometimes allows you to bluff Choice items. I think this is a lot more logical to fit on teams than most of the offensive threats above it because it's always helping your team check things even when it's not being successful as a breaker. Looking at the competition from Exca and Ditto this is an easy rise for me.

:Tyranitar: -> A-

I don't know what to say about this being in B. Don't run Band I guess? This was confusing for me to see because the utility set when running Head Smash is still actually a really good breaker, that also compresses Rocks, prio support, and a big Ghost resist which is in short supply (worth noting that Goon gives it significant competition in this regard). Switches into stuff like Heat pretty consistently and will generally get into the game somewhere. Recommend running Heal Bell Sylv with this as it allows you to be a bit more aggressive at points where you might catch status, considering Heat runs Toxic it's good to reset that. Don't run Band because you lose out on compression and longevity, plus some common matchups like Kommo-O will just stay the same anyway (hitting it with Knock Off is really good even if you're not breaking through it) so you don't necessarily want to be treating it as one of your main breaking methods when it's versatile enough to fit in more roles.

:Arcanine: -> B-
:Incineroar: -> B-

They have V-create and both have their own perks defensively, this is enough to put them above the rest of C rank imo.


I'll stop here to avoid commenting on things I feel less strongly about, but if you want to question stuff on Discord I might be able to give clearer reasoning.
 

drampa's grandpa

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I don't have a position on this for now. It's definitely less splashable than the other Pokemon in A+/S, but it's incredibly effective on a variety of builds at tearing down walls and checking goon.

I can buy it. Rotom has issues with its typing not currently being particularly useful, and most times I find I want Rotom-Heat instead, which actually checks Zeraora, Celebi, and Sylveon while not losing many matchups.

Absolutely agree with this one. Aegislash has been showing itself to be more and more effective to me, between countering Sylveon, revenging chipped Dragapult, and just generally hitting hard with good offensive STAB while having many opportunities to come in. Has become a staple of my teams in a meta where not many Pokemon are practically getting used.

Haven't used this that much recently. When I do, I find that it is fairly difficult to stop it getting worn down given that a number of the things it wants to check either just smack it really hard (goon) or can super-effectively U-Turn on it as it comes in (Pult). This isn't to say Ttar is bad, but its limited in the builds it can fit on because it needs to be able to be brought in effectively and the team has to be able to limit the times you need to do that. I feel B+ may be a better place for this than A-.

Head Smash and Sucker Punch are incredible offensive utility.

:Arcanine: -> B-
:Incineroar: -> B-
Arcanine sounds memey af, but my experience with it is lacking. Because you know, nobody uses it.
Incineroar is OK, but IMO C+ is more fitting than B- when you compare it to the Pokemon in the ranks. I can't see putting it alongside Ludicolo, Rhyperior, or Haxorus, and think it fits better down lower with Gourgeist-Super wtf why is that in C+ raise this thing with like Mew and Corsola-G.

My own thoughts...
:gourgeist-super: Gourgeist-Super C+ -> B
Gourgeist is super useful in the current metagame as a a defensive Pokemon that can wall a bunch of the offensive behemoths of the tier, notably Zeraora, Terrakion, Dracovish, and Kommo-o. Spectral Thief prevents mons from setting up on it while Grass STAB lets it threaten choiced Terrakion and other mons out. Strength Sap for recovery and one of Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, and Leech Seed in the last slot finish out the sets. It's a good mon in the current metagame because it has a nice matchup versus some very big threats that can be difficult to cover defensively otherwise. I have personally found the complete lack of hazard game and the tendency to be very susceptible to dying after minimal chip problems, but it's definitely a neat mon you should try out.

:kommo-o: Kommo-o A -> A+ One of the tiers definitive mons. Awesome fatmon, bulky attacker, and rocker. Being a rocker that beats Sylveon is so incredible right now, and it has the flexibility it run a ton of other sets from ddance to csoul to specs to bdrum (i hate that set btw it sucks talk about never being able to set up because you're waiting for pult to die). It's super easy to slot on teams, somewhat unpredictable, and never deadweight.

:dragapult: Dragapult S -> Ban pretty pls ive talked about this in the main thread
 

PA

how long do I have to wait
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This seemed dead so i thought i'd bring up some discussion on this mon maybe a sus :blobwizard: :obstagoon:

This Dark / Normal Pokemon behemoth is a threat due to its ability to 2HKO a majority of the metagame bar rocky helmet Corviknight and Phy Def Sylveon and even then don't appreciate switching into +2 Knock Off and Facade for the latter. It is also very easy to set up on Pokemon like Celebi and Aegislash. In addition to this, its ability to handle band Dragapult via Sucker leaves it to be over the edge and it can wreak h. You require to at least have a fighting-type like Terrakion or Keldeo to handle it or Fast Pokemon that don't just die to Sucker Punch but then you can just run the suitable checks and once gone can put work however I could be wrong so I'd like your thoughts :].
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Samples updated again just in time for OMPL! We will be using this tournament to see how the metagame fairs at a high caliber stage but the council has been having their radar on threats like Dragapult and Obtsagoon but we want some more community feedback. Discuss!
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Small announcement but both xavgb and MultiAmmiratore have joined the STABmons council!

We acknowledge that many ppl have been raising concern upon Dragapult's place in the metagame and are asking for some action against it. The council is currently discussing the best possible form of addressing this given the current OMPL tournament that is going underway so please be a bit more patient! We encourage more discussion on the matter within the thread as community feedback always makes assessing the best possible solution much easier :blobthumbsup: .
 

In The Hills

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887.png
The STABmons council has decided to suspect Dragapult! Dragapult has been an versatile threat in the STABmons metagame for a long time now, and overcentralizes the metagame by forcing teams to run multiple checks for it due to physical and special sets each having a largely different set of checks. A good post describing why Dragapult is being suspected can be found here.

This will be a different suspect process than normal aimed at getting results faster and incorporating more voters, a luxury we don't have with a ladder suspect while other OMs are running suspects.

The suspect process:
To maximize the amount of votes we get for this suspect, council members and people who have played STABmons games in OMPL VIII will already be able to vote in this suspect. They will be able to participate in suspect tours as well, but cannot earn an extra vote.
Additionally, we will be running 4 suspect tours over the course of the week, where the winner of each tour will be able to vote in the suspect, while in tours with 8 or more participants both the winner and runner-up will be able to vote. This is to ensure those who do not have the requirements yet have opportunity to get reqs. The tours will be scheduled for:
Sunday, May 3rd @ 7:00PM GMT (3:00PM GMT -4)
Monday, May 4th @ 7:00PM GMT (3:00PM GMT -4)
Wednesday, May 6th @ 7:00PM GMT (3:00PM GMT -4)
The STABmons Daily Thurdsday, May 7th @ 10:00PM GMT (6:00PM GMT -4)

The voting process:

The voting process will take place during the week of 5/4-5/10, and the vote will take place in a blind suspect thread that will be posted at a later date with more information. The deadline to vote is 5/10 where votes will then be counted and results posted.
 
Last edited:

vivalospride

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Aloha, stab kinda sucks but for reasons that differ from other oms, or at least that's my not-very-educated-on-oms opinion. While other oms feel straight up cluttered with possibilities, stabmons in my minimal amount of experience has so far felt pretty constricted and like it's a tier consistent of about 12 mons w/o too much room to shift away from the standard or creativity in general.

This meta at this current point in time is probably the perfect example of when a mon is just too centralizing, pult is not impossible to check or have answers to and is not outright broken but the fact of the matter is that this meta is pretty much entirely defined by that mon. When I was slotted into stab in ompl, my good friend Andyboy told me "90% of stab is just scouting the opponent's dragapult set, basically whether it's special or physical"... I took this with a grain of salt bc that sounds like a common thing people say about tiers that's usually at least slightly exaggerated but he was pretty spot on.

You're basically forced to use two slots for opposing dragapults alone, and the options are somewhat limited. This leads to pretty much every team having a combination of either Corviknight + Sylveon or Ferrothorn + Sylveon... or whatever. Which frequently leads to the same defensive and offensive frameworks being recycled over and over again by each of the like 3 people that play stabmons bc adding one mon leads to another and there's only so many routes to take while building when one of two or three cores is absolutely mandatory on every generally solid build.

I'm not talking about my ass here either, on the few occasions I've tried taking the building into my own hands this ompl I've ended up with an almost identical 6 as stresh about 3 times w/o even seeing his 6 beforehand. In-game when facing the pult, before you're able to confidently scout out the set it feels like every play is a risk and there's rarely a safe play around it. I don't think in-practice that is enough to make it "broken" but the mon is absolutely centralizing as fuck and the longer we wait to get rid of it the more the tier will shape around it, which is not a good thing, look at Scizor in gen7uu, it's the same shit.

Anyways I'd like to announce that I was searching for a stabmons game on the ladder while writing this whole post and I only found one just now.
 

drampa's grandpa

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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-stabmons-suspect-voting-1-dragapult.3663960/#post-8460301

Dragapult is banned from STABmons via suspect!

Discuss the current metagame post Dragapult ban! This will shake things up quite a bit so I except a lot of development to come until DLCs drop.

also yay In The Hills can stop bitching
Yay!

Dragapult being banned will be a huge change for the metagame. It discouraged a ton of offensive Pokemon thanks to its combined revenge killing and wallbreaking capabilities.

:ss/sylveon:
This is sort of a weird place to start, but I'm going there.
Sylveon has gradually been running more and more offensive sets, and I think that's going to take off now. One of the major reasons (although far from the only one) SpD or Mixed Defensive Sylveon was so useful was it was one of the best Special Pult checks in the tier, and could go toe to toe with pretty much any set that didn't boost way out of range. Offensive sets had much less leeway to do this, and just rolled over to stuff like Band. But now! We're going to see Specs Sylveon and other offensively inclined sets much more. Sylveon is extremely difficult to wall, requiring SpD Corviknight, and I personally would like to see it suspected. It essentially requires SpD Corviknight to wall, as even bulky titans like Snorlax keel over, and no, Heattom isn't completely reliable as it has a chance to be 2hko'd by Specs Boomburst.

:ss/keldeo::ss/terrakion::ss/kommo-o::ss/cobalion:
Fighting types in general are going to get better. It will be much harder to offensively punish them, every one of them can set up more freely thanks to the lack of the best Spectral Thief abuser, and... yeh basically they can spam attacks much more freely. This one isn't that complicated, honestly.
Kommo-O is a Sword of Justice right? What's 'Virizion'? Isn't that a cell phone company?

:ss/aegislash::ss/gengar::ss/chandelure:
Other offensive ghosts both lost a potent threat to them and their main source of competition. I expect to see much more of all of these three. Gengar in particular is an incredible threat to many teams when played well and can run several sets effectively.

:ss/dracovish:
Vish may be broken now, similarly to Sylveon. Dragapult was a HUGE thorn in its side, as even at +1 Speed Vish was outpaced, meaning that neither Scarf nor Dragon Dance were safe, even behind a Sub. Band and Dragon Dance Vish are both great sets that are incredibly difficult to wall without bringing a Water immunity. I will be keeping an eye on Vish.

:ss/chandelure::ss/gyarados::ss/gengar::ss/kyurem::ss/togekiss::ss/ditto:...etc.
Choice Scarfers... Scarvers? Which is it. I should know that by now. Anyway.
The primary source of speed control in the metagame is gone. Choice Scarf as a whole will likely become a more common sight. This wasn't my thought first but I don't remember who I stole it from so no credit.

:ss/zeraora:
For very similar reasons to Choice Scarf, I expect Zeraora to become more common. It's always been the fastest viable offensive Pokemon but now it stands head and shoulders above the crowd. Zeraora is super hard to find a reliable counter for without resorting to niche picks, and I can see it replacing Pult's role in the metagame decently well, although the lack of Spectral Thief means it wont ever be quite the same :).

:ss/obstagoon:
This thing got worse. Sucker Punch is no longer the vital revenge killing tool it was, the Ghost immunity is suddenly way less important, and Fighting types just got way better. It's still going to be good by virtue of murdering everything, so we'll see if this effective nerf will be enough to take it out of 'big four' status. Well big three now.

These are obviously just my thought in brief, and I've mentioned them a lot over recent days. How much of this actually comes to pass we'll have to see, but there's no doubt this is an incredibly significant meta shake-up.
 
Ight now that Pult is no longer there, free Gengar. I mean ghost types gather a considerable advantage in this generation, especially in OMs and I'm going to show you once again that a ghost type, Gengar is coming, if I may say "centralize" the current metagame, I don't mean to make a suspect or anything but just to give my personal opinion on him with his more than effective double type.



Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb

Gengar @ Life Orb/ Expert Belt/ Metronome
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast

Gengar @ Choice Scarf/Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast


:Corviknight: Corviknight - W

---

:Obstagoon: Obstagoon - L
:Sylveon: Sylveon - W
:Terrakion: Terrakion - W

---

:Cinderace: Cinderace - L in general but I can win the situation if I'm on a sub
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn - W (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 374-441 (106.2 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
:kommo-o: Kommo-o - W
:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat - W (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 292-344 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO)
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash - W
:Zeraora: Zeraora - L

---

:Aegislash: Aegislash - W
:Ditto: Ditto - :mehowth:
:Excadrill: Excadrill - W

---

:Celebi: Celebi - W
:Clefable: Clefable - W
:Dracovish: Dracovish - W
:Gengar: Gengar - Depends on speedtie
:Gyarados: Gyarados - W
:hippowdon: Hippowdon - W
:Keldeo: Keldeo - W
:Kyurem: Kyurem - W
:Melmetal: Melmetal - W
:toxapex: Toxapex - W

---

:Dracozolt: Dracozolt - W
:Dugtrio: Dugtrio - L
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl - 50/50
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon - W
:Indeedee: Indeedee - Depends if Indeedee is scarfed but W
:Jellicent: Jellicent - W
:Pelipper: Pelipper - W
:Rotom-Mow: Rotom-Mow - W
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar - L

---

:Araquanid: Araquanid - W
:Barbaracle: Babaracle - W
:Centiskorch: Centiskorch - W
:Cobalion: Cobalion - W
:Doublade: Doublade - W
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon - L
:Haxorus: Haxorus - W
:Ludicolo: Ludicolo - W
:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz - L
:Mimikyu: Mimikyu - W
:Rhyperior: Rhyperior - W

---

:Accelgor: Accelgor - W
:Barraskewda: Barraskewda - L
:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar - W
:Diggersby: Diggersby - L
:Durant: Durant - W
:Gourgeist-Super: Gourgeist-Super - W
:Jirachi: Jirachi - W
:Mew: Mew - W
:Ninjask: Ninjask - W
:Pangoro: Pangoro - L
:Reuniclus: Reuniclus - W
:Torkoal: Torkoal - W
Type: Null - W
:Weavile: Weavile - L

---

:Arcanine: Arcanine - W
:Bewear: Bewear - W
:Bisharp: Bisharp - L
:Chandelure: Chandelure - W but loses to scarf
:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt - L
:Drednaw: Drednaw - W
:Hatterene: Hatterene - W
:Incineroar: Incineroar - L (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO, depends on rolls)
:Inteleon: Inteleon - L
:Necrozma: Necrozma - W
:Ninetales-Alola: Ninetales-Alola - W
:Slurpuff: Slurpuff - W
:Toxtricity: Toxtricity - W
:Venusaur: Venusaur - W

So he manages to defeat 53 mons on a list of 68 in total, is that half lol, most of them just depend on a +2 to easily defeat the majority of the current defensive cores.
 
Ight now that Pult is no longer there, free Gengar. I mean ghost types gather a considerable advantage in this generation, especially in OMs and I'm going to show you once again that a ghost type, Gengar is coming, if I may say "centralize" the current metagame, I don't mean to make a suspect or anything but just to give my personal opinion on him with his more than effective double type.



Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb

Gengar @ Life Orb/ Expert Belt/ Metronome
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast

Gengar @ Choice Scarf/Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast


:Corviknight: Corviknight - W

---

:Obstagoon: Obstagoon - L
:Sylveon: Sylveon - W
:Terrakion: Terrakion - W

---

:Cinderace: Cinderace - L in general but I can win the situation if I'm on a sub
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn - W (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 374-441 (106.2 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
:kommo-o: Kommo-o - W
:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat - W (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 292-344 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO)
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash - W
:Zeraora: Zeraora - L

---

:Aegislash: Aegislash - W
:Ditto: Ditto - :mehowth:
:Excadrill: Excadrill - W

---

:Celebi: Celebi - W
:Clefable: Clefable - W
:Dracovish: Dracovish - W
:Gengar: Gengar - Depends on speedtie
:Gyarados: Gyarados - W
:hippowdon: Hippowdon - W
:Keldeo: Keldeo - W
:Kyurem: Kyurem - W
:Melmetal: Melmetal - W
:toxapex: Toxapex - W

---

:Dracozolt: Dracozolt - W
:Dugtrio: Dugtrio - L
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl - 50/50
:Hydreigon: Hydreigon - W
:Indeedee: Indeedee - Depends if Indeedee is scarfed but W
:Jellicent: Jellicent - W
:Pelipper: Pelipper - W
:Rotom-Mow: Rotom-Mow - W
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar - L

---

:Araquanid: Araquanid - W
:Barbaracle: Babaracle - W
:Centiskorch: Centiskorch - W
:Cobalion: Cobalion - W
:Doublade: Doublade - W
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon - L
:Haxorus: Haxorus - W
:Ludicolo: Ludicolo - W
:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz - L
:Mimikyu: Mimikyu - W
:Rhyperior: Rhyperior - W

---

:Accelgor: Accelgor - W
:Barraskewda: Barraskewda - L
:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar - W
:Diggersby: Diggersby - L
:Durant: Durant - W
:Gourgeist-Super: Gourgeist-Super - W
:Jirachi: Jirachi - W
:Mew: Mew - W
:Ninjask: Ninjask - W
:Pangoro: Pangoro - L
:Reuniclus: Reuniclus - W
:Torkoal: Torkoal - W
Type: Null - W
:Weavile: Weavile - L

---

:Arcanine: Arcanine - W
:Bewear: Bewear - W
:Bisharp: Bisharp - L
:Chandelure: Chandelure - W but loses to scarf
:Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt - L
:Drednaw: Drednaw - W
:Hatterene: Hatterene - W
:Incineroar: Incineroar - L (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO, depends on rolls)
:Inteleon: Inteleon - L
:Necrozma: Necrozma - W
:Ninetales-Alola: Ninetales-Alola - W
:Slurpuff: Slurpuff - W
:Toxtricity: Toxtricity - W
:Venusaur: Venusaur - W

So he manages to defeat 53 mons on a list of 68 in total, is that half lol, most of them just depend on a +2 to easily defeat the majority of the current defensive cores.
Can you clarify by W/L?
Obvious it’s Win/Lose for Gengar, but in what context exactly? Can you also clarify if a Pokemon could be a check, since checks are also important in consideration, not just counters.
Is it a 1v1 situation or switching in?
Also it seems like you just the Wins/Loses flip flop between radically different sets, like some Pokemon such as Araquanid would beat Gengar easily using Nasty Plot (Water Shuriken breaks Sub, Aqua Jet does 83%-98% if banded, and can only beat an Araquanid switch in with Life Orb, which recoils) but only barely loses to Specs (which still leaves Gengar with a huge chunk of health gone).

It’s also weird about how limited your selection of Pokemon were and what you selected. Like you mention Accelgor, but not something like Snorlax, Mantine, Umbreon, or Pyukumuku.

And lastly, this just assumes that winning against a lot of Pokemon means that it’s broken. Landorus-T has a history, especially in SM, where it had a set for nearly every Pokemon
 

In The Hills

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Threat Spotlight: Aegislash Edition
This is a new series I'll be starting aimed at delving deeper in on the prominent threats in the STABmons metagame and some effective ways of checking them, both offensively and defensively.

Aegislash is a super potent threat in the metagame because it's able to run so many terrifying threats, each that have their own separate checks. These multiple sets not only make it so that there isn't a single Aegislash check that beats all of its sets at once, but these sets can also break even its better checks with just a little chip, so keep in mind that you always have to be careful against Aegislash. With that being said, let's take a look at the sets.
4 Attacks
Aegislash @ Spell Tag
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moongeist Beam
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat

Choice Specs
Aegislash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Steel Beam
- Toxic

Choice Band
Aegislash @ Choice Band
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
4 Attacks: 4 Attacks Aegislash is probably the best Aegislash set in the meta due to its flexibility by virtue of not being Choice locked, as well as hitting targets with both physical and special attacks. Moongeist Beam is its main STAB attack, and hits ridiculously hard. Sunsteel Strike is used over a special option like Flash Cannon due to being able to 1HKO non-physically defensive Sylveon's. Close Combat is great to catch Dark and Normal types who think they can switch into Aegislash's Moongeist Beam off-guard. However, due to its lack of investment into just one side of special or physical attacks, it is slightly easier to check depending on what you use.
Defensive Checks (Click Sprites for example sets): :bewear::mandibuzz::type-null::incineroar::vaporeon::umbreon:
While this set has less soft checks than the other sets, 4 Attacks Aegi has the most solid defensive counterplay of any of these Aegislash sets. Any Ghost resist that is able to withstand Aegislash's physical attacks is able to beat this set, while Bewear and Mandibuzz are the best for the job. Thanks to Fluffy, Bewear is able to take on Aegislash's physical attacks like they're nothing, even Sunsteel isn't a solid 4HKO. Mandibuzz is another solid check due to its typing and solid defensive stats, and is able to Knock Off its Spell Tag and make Aegi's Ghost STABs much weaker. Incineroar is a bit of both a defensive check and offensive check, but can be worn down and has to watch out for Aegi's Close Combat. Type: Null is a super solid switchin, and while it can't actually do much damage back, it can cripple Aegi or any switchin with Glare. Umbreon and Vaporeon are the two shakier checks in this list, and while neither are outright 2HKOd, they can fall to just about any chip.

Choice Specs: Choice Specs Aegislash is peculiar in that it has probably the least limited counterplay due to one move: Steel Beam. Steel Beam effectively brings Aegislash's switchins to 0, at the cost for a HUGE chunk of its health. This risk-reward aspect makes Specs Aegislash a potent threat that always has a "your switchin dies lol but oh no i die too" button in the back that could turn the tide of any game at the right moment. Regardless, there are switchins to its other STABs, and those are:
Defensive Checks: :incineroar::type-null::snorlax::umbreon:
These checks listed are strongly disregarding Steel Beam for reasons mentioned above, but these 4 are very solid switchins for Aegislash's other STABs. Again Incineroar is more of an offensive check here, but is able to avoid the 2HKO from Moongeist Beam. Snorlax, Umbreon and Type: Null are all super solid switchins to Flash Cannon, though Snorlax and Umbreon are able to threaten Aegislash back. Being Choice locked is an obvious disadvantage for Aegislash here, so having any Ghost immunity and Steel resist can alleviate the damage it causes in the short run, but in the long run its difficult for teams not to get worn down by this heavy hitter without one of these solid checks. In addition, lack of priority makes Specs Aegislash the easiest of these sets to offensively check.

Choice Band: Choice Band Aegislash gains two powerful new STABs to use in STABmons in Sunsteel Strike and Spectral Thief, both of which make it a tough Pokemon to switch into. Typical switchins for Aegislash's physical moves are easily blown away by Banded Sunsteel Strike or Close Combat, while pure physical walls such as Hippowdon rejoice in the fact that this set doesn't carry Moongeist Beam.
Defensive Checks: :hippowdon::toxapex::corviknight::gyarados::ferrothorn:
Band Aegislash checks love that it's solely physical and that it's choice locked. Hippowdon Corviknight and Toxapex are some of the best blanket physical checks in the tier, and they both are able to hard stop Band Aegislash. Corviknight and Toxapex both also have optional Protect moves in King's Shield and Baneful Bunker respectively that are able to scout Aegi's set safely. While Corviknight can't do much back, it is able to U-Turn into an offensive check at the cost of potentially losing a large chunk of health. Gyarados is an odd choice to check Band Aegislash to say the least, but its typing and Intimidate make Gyarados a neat check for quite a few physical threats in the metagame so I thought it was worth mentioning. Ferrothorn is a super shaky check to Aegislash as it greatly fears Close Combat, but if Aegi is choice locked into another move it can indefinitely wall with Strength Sap.

Other Sets: Aegislash does have some other more fringe sets such as Autotomotize Weakness Policy, Swords Dance, or defensive sets with Toxic and King's Shield, but in general there counterplay is mostly the same or even far easier.

General Aegislash Counterplay: Aegislash has some flaws that makes it more manageable in an actual game than it seems on paper. The lack of recovery it has leaves it prone to chip from either hazards or Rocky Helm/Iron Barbs. Along with those forms of chip, Aegislash typically doubles as a team's offensive Sylveon check, so it's easily worn down by Sylveon's Boombursts. Offensive counterplay is pretty widespread for Aegislash due to its lower Speed tier, so if you have some form of getting your offensive checks in safely with pivoting from Corviknight or another slow pivot, Aegislash can be much more managable. The offensive checks listed below are able to both outpace max speed Aegislash, while 1HKOing its Shield forme.
Offensive Checks: :obstagoon::dracovish::rotom-heat::cinderace::arcanine::excadrill::bisharp::chandelure::weavile::mimikyu::hydreigon::dracozolt::tyranitar:
One Pokemon you may be asking why it isn't present on this list is Gengar, but the reasoning for that is Gengar is 1HKOd by Shadow Sneak from both 4 Attacks and Band Aegislash. Obstagoon is the most prevalent offensive check, and is even bulky enough to live some of Aegislash's STAB moves. Cinderace, Rotom-Heat, and Arcanine are solid offensive checks due to their Fire-typing, and are huge threats on their own. Dracovish and even Dracozolt are pretty unique as Aegislash checks as they can both 1HKO with their STAB attacks despite being neutral hits, and both are able to outspeed Aegislash even with Adamant nature. Excadrill is the only offensive Ground-type on this list, but it's a really great offensive check that can fill a bunch of other roles for offense such as Rapid Spin on Moldy sets or a fast sweeper with Sand Rush. Offensive Dark types like Tyranitar, Bisharp, Hydreigon, and Weavile (along with Incineroar and Obstagoon who have been previously mentioned) are underutilized forms of Aegislash counterplay due to the prevalence of Sylveon and Fighting-type Pokemon, but highly effective at this role. Finally, while they are especially shaky offensive checks, Ghost types such as Mimikyu and Chandelure are able to stop Aegislash in a pinch.

How you can use this threat: There's plenty of ways you can use Aegislash on your teams, but here's a couple of fun cores that can maximize its utility and breaking power.
Fairy Wish Passer+Specs Breaker
:clefable:OR:sylveon:+:Aegislash:
Aegislash's checks typically are threatened by Fairy types, and Aegislash greatly appreciates Wish passing, enough said. Sylveon has much more offensive pressure and is able to Rapid Spin, while Clefable is able to WishPass much more safely with Teleport. Aegislash is able to support these two as well as it can switch into some of their checks such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn safely, though this core struggles greatly with strong Fire types like Cinderace. Any Aegislash set pairs well with this core, but I specifically chose Specs Aegislash as it can click Steel Beam more freely if it has a Wish passer in the back.

Band Terrakion+4 Attacks
:terrakion:+:aegislash:
Terrakion is a great partner for Aegislash, as almost all of Aegislash's checks are heavily threatened by Terrakion. Band Terrakion is a super threatening Pokemon in STABmons, with almost all of its checks being Ghost types or let Aegislash in for free. This core is a very potent balance breaking core, so be sure to check it out.

Hazards Seismitoad+4 Attacks Aegislash
:seismitoad:+:aegislash:
Seismitoad is a nice partner for Aegislash in that it can switch into a good portion of Aegislash's offensive checks reliably, particularly Fire-type Pokemon. In additon, it can set either Stealth Rock or Spikes, which Aegislash is able to utilize very well due to its ability to threaten both of the strongest hazard removal options in the tier, Corviknight and Sylveon.

Double Choice Sweepers
:keldeo:+:aegislash:
This core is a pretty fun one that uses double Choice users to break teams. Keldeo is a neat pair with Band Aegislash since it heavily threatens Band Aegislash checks like Hippowdon, though the pair can struggle a little with Toxapex due to Regenerator making it more difficult to wear down.

Defensive Kommo-O+Specs Aegislash
:kommo-o:+:aegislash:
Kommo-O and Aegislash make a great pair for Bulky Offense builds, and are both reliable offensive checks to Sylveon in different ways. Kommo-O may be on the downfall since the Dragapult ban, it is still a solid Stealth Rock user that stops both Aegislash's offensive and defensive Dark-type checks, while Aegislash can help scout Sylveon sets that may be able to break Kommo-O like Tri Attack.

Overall, Aegislash is a really potent threat in the STABmons metagame that is both really fun to use and frustrating to try and check, but I hope I gave some new ideas on how to manage this beast. If you have any other fun Aegislash sets you've been using or thought of a check I may have forgotten, feel free to discuss!
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
QUICKBAN UPDATE #7

:ss/dracovish:


It has been quite apparent to the council and many players who actively play STABmons on the ladder and in tournaments that Dracovish has become an absolute menace post-Dragapult ban. The fact that one of it's best revenge killers cannot securely revenge kill it even after a +1 Dragon Dance boost has left the tier struggling to find more defensive means to check it. While such checks do exist, mainly being physically defensive Ferrothorn, Seismitoad, Baneful Bunker + Haze Toxapex, and more niche stuff like Jellicent, Dracovish has completely warped teambuilding to an unhealthy and is not considered healthy by the council. Most notably, Substitute + Dragon Dance sets can help circumvent one of the most common checks in Strength Sap Ferrothorn, further enhancing the degree of unhealthy teambuilding that Dracovish employs in the builder and in practice. As a result from a unanimous vote, Dracovish will be quickbanned effective immediately

Tagging Kris and The Immortal

Expect more updates in the future! STABmons is rapidly evolving and we strive to address things as soon as possible :blobthumbsup:
 
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v-create should be banned, it's stronger than fishious rend or bolt beak and can be run on many pokemons (even on super slow pokemons) and I guess flash fire is a requirement in a team to defend against this
also can miss so when you miss a move as powerful as a z move, it's game deciding
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Gonna do some vr noms since the thread kinda dead and the metagame has drastically changed with the Pult ban and also somewhat by the Dracovish ban as well.

S -> A
Corviknight is still one of the best defensive glues / pivots in the tier, but has been dropping out of favor and popularity especially in OMPL after the metagame has progressed further. The rise of threats like Zeraora, Rotom-H, Aegislash and even stuff like Gengar has really made Corvi struggle in performing it's role as an all around blanket check to a variety of threats. Whether it chooses to run fully defensive or specially defensive investment, in can oftentimes struggle to check certain threats it wants to (ie: for instance offensive Sylveon sets 2HKOing Physdef variants after Rocks chip etc...). While a drop to A may seem drastic, I think it appropriately outlines Corviknight's place in the metagame as a solid but not meta defining defensive presence as it once was.

A+ -> S
Now this is an example of a threat that has kept on excelling every metagame shift. Sylveon is truly the defining force of STABmons right now and is so splashable and effective on what it does it's not even funny. Whether it be offensive Rapid Spin, defensive sets, Choice Specs, Calm Mind, Sub sets, etc.... Sylveon can fit and put in work for a lot of teams and really warps teambuilding to a large degree. Teams need at least 1-2 solid switchins to it's Pixilate-boosted Boombursts and the rise of coverage like Tri Attack for Soundproof Kommo-o, Toxic and Heal Bell has really made it even more difficult for checks like Rotom-H and Toxapex to appropriately wear it down. Overall, I think Sylveon's presence (especially when looking at it's usage in this current OMPL) has cemented itself enough to warrant a rise to S at this point.

A -> A+
Gonna lump this two together as there rise kinda goes hand in hand with one another given how common they are paired with eachother. Ferrothorn is at the forefront of the defensive metagame even after the Dracovish ban due to the absurd amount of utility it can bring to teams either through it's dual hazards, Knock Off, coverage moves in Anchor Shot / Grav Apple / Body Press, or generally weakening threats down via Toxic and Strength Sap. It checks so many top tier threats like Zeraora, Obstagoon, Sylveon, and up and coming ones like Dracozolt. I just think the sheer amount of options it can run and how well it does versus the majority of offensive threats warrants a rise. Similarly, Rotom-H has also seen a surge of usage due to the it's great typing that enables it to check shit like Sylv, Zeraora, Sand Rush Excadrill, and opposing Rotom-H. Toxic sets in particular have really been a metagame staple at this point as it can cripple so many of it's commons switchins and the flexibility of it's coverage moves makes facing it always a burden since your Seismitoad can just die to a Freeze Dry if it chooses to carry it. Both top tier defensive pivots imo.

A -> A-
In the contrary, Rotom-W has steadily been decreasing in usage and overall viability as it's oven forme has really been taking most of it's shine away. While offering a water resist is nice and also being able to check threats like Sand Rush + Rock Slide Excadrill better is also appreciated, Rotom-H's typing pairs better with the other defensive pivots that the Rotom formes are usually paired with. Still a good mon, but def not A worthy at this point.

A--> A
Aegi is an absolute menace rn and is definitely one of the best wallbreakers in the tier in the wake of the Dragapult ban. Choice Band, Choice Specs, and the infamous mixed Spell Tag sets all require different switchins and it can really be a hassle to deal with an Aegislash without properly scouting what set its running first. While some pokemon like Toxapex and Mandibuzz have been picking up in usage specifically to deal with the sword, it still can manage to apply a ton of pressure to the majority of teams rn especially given it's good matchup versus threats like Terrakion, Sylveon, and Kommo-o.

Ok this post is already long enough and I am tired/ lazy to extend it further so here are some further changes I would like to see and want others to discuss too:
A -> A-
B+ -> A-/A
A- -> B
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> B+
B -> B-
B- ->B
B- -> B
 

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