STAB STABmons

Funbot28

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Hello, I am here just to make a quick announcement regarding quickbans that I think no one is surprised to see coming:


Quickban #1: Dynamax

Similar to almost every other singles tier, the Dynamax mechanic has completely flipped the metagame on it's head and STABmons is no exception to this rule. Abusers such as Dragapult, Rotom-H, Kommo, and Gyarados become extremely potent with the doubling in bulk and the power + benefit of max moves. Defensive counterplay to these threats is limited and niche when considering the fact that defensive pokemon cannot abuse Dynamaxing as promisingly as the abundance of setup sweepers that can. With that being sad, the STABmons council has decided to implement the Dynamax clause effective immediately.

:ss/Darmanitan-Galar:
Quickban #2: Darminatan-Galarian


One of the best offensive wallbreakers in the tier when combined with Choice Band and Gorilla Tactics, Darmanitan-G lacks any true defensive counters in conjunction with amazing coverage. Oftentimes, many teams require to handle Darmanitan via offensive measures (either faster threats or priority in Extreme Speed), however Darmanitan can usually circumvent the former via utilizing a Choice Scarf set which is also extremely viable or priority of it's own in Ice Shard which does an incredible amount of damage despite the low BP. With all this in mind, Darmanitan restricts teambuilding too much and has been decided to been quickbanned in order to promote more flexible teambuilding.

I want to apologize for not announcing these votes sooner as my life was a bit hectic irl and never had the proper chance to announce them. The council is taking into account the playerbase's opinions and will address things more swiftly.

With that being said, expect more votes soon regarding other problematic issues such as Extreme Speed, Dragapult, and Dracovish.

Tagging The Immortal to implement. Thanks!
 

drampa's grandpa

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is a Forum Moderator
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With Dynamax, Moody, and Darmanitan gone I though I'd post a little preliminary viability ranking that a couple of us were working on.

Please note that this is not a finished viability ranking The meta is still in flux, new threats are still arising, and we just banned two incredibly oppressive things.
TOP

:darmanitan-galar:
Darmanitan-Galar (rest in pieces you will be missed by me and probably nobody else borked af tho)

HIGH

:ditto:
Ditto
:dragapult:
Dragapult
:ferrothorn:
Ferrothorn
:obstagoon:
Obstagoon
:rotom-wash:
Rotom-Wash
:sylveon:
Sylveon

MIDDLE

:bewear:
Bewear
:corsola-galar:
Corsola-Galar
:corviknight:
Corviknight
:diggersby:
Diggersby
:dracozolt:
Dracozolt
:excadrill:
Excadrill
:gengar:
Gengar
:gyarados:
Gyarados
:hippowdon:
Hippowdon
:indeedee:Indeedee
:mandibuzz:
Mandibuzz
:rotom-heat:
Rotom-Heat
:tyranitar:

LOW / NICHE
:araquanid:
Araquanid
:barraskewda:
Barraskewda
:bronzong:
Bronzong
:chandelure: Chandelure
:cinderace:Cinderace
:drednaw:
Drednaw
:durant:
Durant
:flareon:
Flareon
:gastrodon:Gastrodon
:grimmsnarl:
Grimmsnarl
:hatterene:
Hatterene
:hydreigon:
Hydreigon
:inteleon:
Inteleon
:kommo-o:
Kommo-o
:mimikyu:
Mimikyu
:pelipper:
Pelipper
:rotom-mow:Rotom-Mow
:toxapex:Toxapex
:toxtricity:
Toxtricity

UNVIABLE

:magearna:
chazm
:meloetta:



I haven't seen but should be good so use them pls

:snorlax:
Snorlax
:type-null:
Type: Null
:haxorus:
Haxorus
:hawlucha:
Hawlucha

Feedback I've considered implementing is the raising of pretty much every espeeder. I like how they stack up against each other right now but compared to the other Pokemon I think there are arguments for at least some of them rising.

I'm sure there's stuff missing. It happens. I missed some really obvious stuff in my first draft.

This was originally built for the metagame which included dynamaxing and Darmanitan. I don't think them leaving significantly change viability in the way say, an Espeed ban would, but it may affect some mons on this list.

Within ranks everything is alphabetical and if it isn't it's cuz I'm bad not a viability comment.

thanks to In The Hills and Chazm (still unviable tho) for helping me with this

edit: shoutout me for forgetting dracovish even after hills reminded me :dracovish: I'd say mid off the top of my head but could go high ig. It's worse here than OU thanks to some of its resists getting Strength Sap or other reliable recovery although the dance sets are nice. I'll respond to the other stuff when I get a chance.
 
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Thoughts on the preliminary WR:
Obstagoon High->Middle, Bewear UR -> Middle, Diggersby Middle -> Low, Snorlax UR-> Middle:,
Obstagoon is a pretty good user of Extrem Speed with its ability Gut but face competiton in this role with other Normal Type, mainly Bewear, Diggersby and Snorlax, each of them having a specificity. While Obstagoon have Guts end the Dark Type and so an acces to Sucker Pumch which allows it to smash Dragapult and others ghost type, Bewear's ability fluffy is extremely valuable, mainly in this Physicaly Oriented meta, and Fighting type is also very usefull with CC and No Retreat. Diggersby is a very good Espeed Band user and Stab Eq is always nice to have. Finally, Snorlax is the best BellySpeed user, even if it can't use anymore its Gmax to heal itself. I personnaly think that Diggersby is a bit less good than the others, because it's less bulky.

Hawlucha UR->High : Hawlucha is incredibly hard to wall with a seed set with Acrobatics No Retreat Drain Punch Taunt, and it helped me to reach #1 in the ladder. It can also be used with Mold Breaker to make mimikyu not a safe RK, considering that its speed is already pretty good whithout Unburden boost, and its STABs aren't well resisted by the Metagame. So overall Hawlucha is a very good pick in this meta, and the fact that Ditto is top tier also helps it. So I think that High is deserved.

Cinderace UR -> Low/Mid : Best V Create User, can destroy Tyranitar, can deal with hazards and have U-Turn. Not much more to say. My bad Cin is already in the VR

Chandelure: UR -> Low, Salazzle: UR -> Low: The 2 best users of Eruption in the tier, one with a great Speed Tier and the other one which destroy Mimikyu. They're both decent, but suffer from several weaknesses (mainly hazards) which make them for me Low Tier.

Tyranitar : UR -> Middle : As highlighted by Atha, Band Tyranitar has no SI. Even if Ttar has lost lots of interesting mooves, it stays a threat that shouldn't be underestimated.

Excadrill: Low -> High: I have no idea why Exca is Low Tier. If one of (if not the ) best offensive SR setter in the tier, mainly thanks to Mold Breaker. The only SI is Corviknght, which is not a Staple and can be easily played around. Moreover, Sand Rush in combination with Ttar can male Exca an excellent cleaner, even if it's easier to check. Exca has also acces to Bullet punch, which allows it not to be passive against faster threats like mimikyu or dragapult, for example.

Might add others later
 
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Quick question.

I have making a Zweilous set since I noticed that it now has access to False Surrender.
Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- False Surrender
- Dragon Darts
- Dragon Dance
- Obstruct
With Hustle, Zweilous effectively has 152 Atk and with Eviolite, it has 72/114/114 bulk
Only problems being it's lack luster speed and typing being weak to Fairy (and since home isn't here, no Steel moves at all and only Belch for Poison moves).
What would be good teammates for Zweilous? Preferably the fairy killer.
 

Remember Victini and its extremely broken move? That move wasn't removed in Gen 8. We also have a good candidate for abusing V-Create: Cinderace.

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze (Or Libero, when that's released)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt/Sucker Punch
- U-turn

While its coverage may appear lacking, it really isn't. The combination of V-Create, High Jump Kick, and Zen Headbutt is resisted by only 11 Pokemon, all but one of which were removed in Gen 8. The one that wasn't removed? Darmanitan-Zen. Which is currently unobtainable. Speaking of Darmanitan, in order for Darmanitan-Zen to be in the game, there needs to be Darmanitan. So when it's released...



Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- U-turn

...It'll certainly be a threat. Also...

Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- U-turn

...Did I mention that it can learn Icicle Crash? With that, it has the same insane coverage that Darmanitan-Galar has, but with Fire STAB. Luckily, it doesn't have Gorilla Tactics, so it probably won't be as broken, but it'll certainly be something to watch out for when (or if) it comes.
 

Kris

broken bricks
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Remember Victini and its extremely broken move? That move wasn't removed in Gen 8. We also have a good candidate for abusing V-Create: Cinderace.

Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze (Or Libero, when that's released)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt/Sucker Punch
- U-turn

While its coverage may appear lacking, it really isn't. The combination of V-Create, High Jump Kick, and Zen Headbutt is resisted by only 11 Pokemon, all but one of which were removed in Gen 8. The one that wasn't removed? Darmanitan-Zen. Which is currently unobtainable. Speaking of Darmanitan, in order for Darmanitan-Zen to be in the game, there needs to be Darmanitan. So when it's released...



Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- U-turn

...It'll certainly be a threat. Also...

Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- U-turn

...Did I mention that it can learn Icicle Crash? With that, it has the same insane coverage that Darmanitan-Galar has, but with Fire STAB. Luckily, it doesn't have Gorilla Tactics, so it probably won't be as broken, but it'll certainly be something to watch out for when (or if) it comes.
That isn't how Galar Pokemon formes work. Darmanitan can't get Ice-type moves (or psychic type ones) and Darmanitan-G can't get any ice, fire, psychic moves because The Zen formes are battle only forme changes, and galar formes are the same as alola formes in that there's no way to change Darmanitan into a Darmanitan-G out of battle or vice versa. So Darmanitan can only get Fire-type moves.
 
That isn't how Galar Pokemon formes work. Darmanitan can't get Ice-type moves (or psychic type ones) and Darmanitan-G can't get any ice, fire, psychic moves because The Zen formes are battle only forme changes, and galar formes are the same as alola formes in that there's no way to change Darmanitan into a Darmanitan-G out of battle or vice versa. So Darmanitan can only get Fire-type moves.
Ok, it appears that this was an error in PS. I saw Ice moves in normal Darmanitan's moveset for some reason, so I thought that GF might have added ice moves to its movepool for some reason. I apologize for the error.
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
After playing the metagame for a couple weeks I've noticed a couple things that have been causing consistent problems with balance

:ss/obstagoon:
Extreme Speed!

I have mixed feelings about Extreme Speed right now. I think the meta is clearly unbalanced. What I'm not sure of is whether Extreme Speed or Obstagoon is at the heart of the issue.

Extreme Speed is an incredible tool. We've seen what it can do generation after generation metagame after metagame. It's the best revenge killing tool, a powerful sweeping tool, and enables Pokemon to become a wallbreaking package through both its role condensing and its encouragement of maximum power. This generation we lost Landorus-Therian, Celesteela, and Slowbro-Mega along with Beak Blast while most abusers are either still here or easily replaceable and we, in fact, gained our newest and best abuser, DubwoolObstagoon, who I'll discuss in a moment. Every argument for the ban that existed last generation is still here, and the abusers have only gotten more powerful in comparison to the metagame overall.

However

In the meta as we play it right now, Obstagoon stands out as far and away the best abuser of this move. Because of its power level (basically as strong as Diggersby before Diggers' item boost), Speed tier, and above all its incredible typing which enables it to prey on the omnipresent Ghost types of the tier Obstagoon has cemented itself as a Pokemon that is nearly impossible to switch into, can sweep easily with one boost, has set variety, and fits easily on teams while providing valuable support. It's S rank for a reason and very much belongs there.

So the question I want to ask: Is Extreme Speed broken without Obstagoon? Which abusers break it?
Overall I think Extreme Speed is probably the issue but I think we shouldn't have this conversation without bringing up Obstagoon as well.

I don't particularly care whether goon is broken without Espeed, we can cross that bridge another day presuming we ban Espeed.

:ss/dragapult:
Dragapult has cemented itself as the primary choice for a huge number of roles, even this early in the metagame.
Answering Dragpult reliably is difficult for any team. Gonna do this with bullets instead of the text wall I had initially because it looks nicer and there's less fluff.
  • Resists or is immune to many forms of priority, Extreme Speed being BY FAR the most important
  • Outspeeds the unboosted tier besides a Ninjask and Accelgor, which are only semi-viable and only as leads.
    • The above two points make revenge killing Dragapult difficult.
  • Dual STABs have very good coverage.
  • Can run either physical or special sets, which have largely different sets of walls, making playing against it a guessing game until the set is revealed.
  • Has access to U-Turn to maintain momentum and get chip damage, which it uses very well due to its Speed forcing an absurd number of switches.
On the other hand Dragapult does have some weaknesses that make counterplay possible
  • Both STAB attacks have immunities
  • Most frequently runs Choice items, which can leave it vulnerable
    • The above two points combine to make Dragapult have a difficult time cleaning teams without using one of its less common sweeper sets. A Normal type + a Fairy type can frequently provide sufficient counterplay with minimal prediction.
  • Attacking stats are fairly low. If faced with a bulky mon not weak to one of its STABs there is a high chance it will be walled. This is not an enormous problem as Dragapult is not primarily a wallbreaker, however it can upset momentum versus balanced teams.
Overall: Dragapult has essentially replaced scarfers on my teams. It's absurdly fast, strong enough, and unpredictable as to which side of the spectrum it hits on. If Corviknight wasn't in the metagame I think it would already be quickbanned, but as it is I think we should be discussing whether we want to keep it or not. If Extreme Speed gets banned its Speed controlling capabilities will likely become even more important due to the loss of the most important revenge killing tool, although I wouldn't rely on non-scarf Dragapult to outspeed boosted stuff (it's not THAT fast; stuff like +1 Haxorus still outpaces you :)

:ss/melmetal::ss/excadrill:
Double Iron Bash

This move is just as uncompetitive as it is in any other OM where it's freely available, if not moreso. It turns countering Excadrill into a hellish "can I avoid the ~50% flinch" game which neither player has any particular control over. I've seen people calling for the move to be left in until Jirachi releases but I think a move which turns any matchup with a slower Pokemon into a coinflip (at best a chance of ~25% chance to lose instantly; nothing lives the 3hko from +2 Moldy Excadrill).

This may not be the most broken thing in the metagame right now, but it's incredibly uncompetitive. I see no downside to banning it and I don't think we need to discuss it that much. There's no easy Prankster on defensive Pokemon here, and no simple workaround to avoid being flinched that you can run.

Rotom: Mold Breaker EQ beats Heat and Wash (and Frost obv), Double Iron Bash flinches and KOs the rest (again including Frost obviously).
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Fan: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Corviknight: +2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 140-166 (35 - 41.6%) -- approx. 84.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Two flinches (26.01% chance) * 84.4% chance to be 3hko'd = ~22% chance of mon deleted turn three
This doesn't take into account:
Possibility of three flinches (13% chance)
Crit chance (you're hitting six times over these turns so ~22.5% chance for one or more crit if my math is right)
and most importantly...
what Corv does back
If Corviknight gets a chance to move it has to use that turn to either Roost, attack, or use Iron Defense. Unless Corv is Body Press its attacks are resisted and not doing much. Iron Defense is pretty bad, and leaves you vulnerable to more flinches because you haven't healed. Roost buys you more time but you haven't actually done anything to Excadrill except potentially cause some Life Orb damage. And note the calc above: no LO. Excadrill doesn't need Life Orb to 3hko Corviknight. It can even run Protective Pads for Rocky Helmet / Iron Barbs / King's Shield.

Ferrothorn:
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 120-142 (34 - 40.3%) -- approx. 34.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Ferrothorn can technically eat this pretty reliably from full health with Leftovers / no LO
a) any chip kills it
b) Ferrothorn can't stop Excadrill from just Swords Dancing again, because SD outpaces Strength Sap drops.
c) LO will just drop it

Let's just get rid of the cancer pls

Let me know if there's anything I should expand upon, make more concise, or include more meta examples / calcs / replays when I get myself together enough for them. I feel like I got a bit rambly here which I tend to do lol.
:blobwizard: :ss/drampa::ss/sobble:
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Sorry for the double post but nobody else gonna post :3

I thought I'd drop some sets because the thread doesn't have that many yet

:ss/flareon:
Flareon @ Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots / A memory of your choice
Ability: Flash Fire / Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD OR 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Slack Off / Multi-Attack

Flareon is a capable Espeeder, wallbreaker, tank, and sweeper right now. It's not the best at any of those roles but it does do a lot with one teamslot. V-Create is absurdly powerful always, and Flareon makes good use of that with STAB and decent Attack (and occasionally an ability boost). Extreme Speed is the meta-warping move that it is, the best revenge killing tool and an obscenely good cleaner. It comes in on several notable defensive threats (Corviknight, Sylveon, Toxapex, Ferrothorn) and poses an immediate offensive threat to the opposing team.

When playing with Flareon you should only Swords Dance to break passive mons. It's too slow to sweep through teams most games I play with it, as Extreme Speed resists are mandatory and Flareon is slow and very physical frail even before you drop your defense with V-Create. Swords Dance can also be used against passive mons to catch offensive switchins and Espeed them... essentially only setup on bulky mons. You can abuse your nice special bulk and burn immunity against Pokemon like Toxapex to set up and nuke.

Multi Attack versus Slack Off comes down to coverage versus longevity. No single type will hit everything you'd want to, although I think ground comes closest (lol Solrock and Lunatone still resisting). 224 Speed Evs are for outspeeding Adamant Tyranitar, and are mostly useful if you run a Fighting Memory.
252+ Atk Flareon Multi-Attack (Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 532-628 (131.6 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Flareon Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't particularly like running that though because
252+ Atk Tyranitar Accelerock vs. 32 HP / 4 Def Flareon: 222-264 (79.5 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
even non-Band Tyranitar does a TON to Flareon with Accelerock, which most of them carry. I'm willing to listen to other Speed spreads btw.
Another option is hitting 209 speed for 0 speed Rotom-A.
Slack Off versus Recover comes down to whether you have style or not. So use Slack Off. :blobthumbsup:

I've tried running bulkier sets. I ran Rapid Spin once for instance. They don't really work because Flareon just isn't a wall, it doesn't have the stats. It pretty direly needs V-Create and Extreme Speed to be useful, and the remaining two slots don't give it a ton of flexibility.

:ss/rhyperior:
Rhyperior @ Metronome / Weakness Policy
Ability: Solid Rock / Reckless
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Accelerock
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge / Head Smash

Rhyperior is a really cool mon! It hits really hard with any of its attacks and has killer dual STAB coverage. Solid Rock makes its weaknesses not as awful as they seem. Pokemon that like to switch into physical attackers, such as Bewear, risk setting off Weakness Policy and dying to Earthquake.

+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 193-228 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- not a KO
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 328-387 (78 - 92.1%) -- not a KO
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 364-429 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to 1HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 151-178 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- not a KO

I chose a bunch of physical threats because it can, in general, SD to +2 against physical threats or simply tank a single hit and smack back. Its SpD is much sketchier of course but can't have everything. The Speed EVs creep Corviknight. If you're confident in your ability to outplay them and catch the Roost with an EQ this may be unnecessary.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Accelerock
- Spikes

Here's the Choice Band set. Band is a better revenge killer, and arguably a better overall set. Head Smash is a nuke
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Rhyperior Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 357-420 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 144-171 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Spikes allow you to get Hippowdon into range of an Earthquake 2hko if you can keep them up, along with wearing down everything on the opponents team. Other coverage tends to be unnecessary due to your STABs excellent neutral coverage and power.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 183-216 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery


:ss/tyranitar:
Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Head Smash / Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Rock Tomb / (don't run these im just joking cuz i dont like the options>) Rollout / Rock Throw

Despite the loss of pursuit I find Tyranitar still very good. This ChopleTar is the main utility set I've been using. It Speed creeps 0 speed Rotom-A, tanks Focus Blast from Gengar, and revenges both Dragapult and Gengar fairly reliably with Sucker Punch, all while setting Stealth Rock and being generally strong and tanky.

I don't like the Rock move options. I miss Diamond Storm. :/. I'm sure there's some EV spread that would make Rock Tomb ideal but idk what it is.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 229-270 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 390-458 (148.8 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 326-386 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And here, just to slap it in the thread, is a standard BandTar.

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 204 Spe OR 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Accelerock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Head Smash / Stone Edge

Not gonna say much here. It's BandTar. It does what BandTar does, except no Pursuit this generation.

:ss/cinderace:
Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt

This thing is actually absurdly good. Fast, strong V-Create just melts opponents, even resists. It loves the lack of Pursuit, it loves the relative lack of Flash Fire mons (Heatran), and it has the movepool to back up what V-Create can't just get rid of. You don't even need to predict their Tyranitar / other Rock type because you can just pivot off of most of them.

It does hate Chandelure, but nobody is running that. It also hates Extreme Speed, and everybody is running that, but you should be heavily prepared for Espeed either way.

IMO there isn't really another set for this mon. You can squeeze Gunk Shot or Sucker Punch on if you want. Mostly you want to spam V-Create.


Other mons I haven't seen much that deserve more use...
:ss/dugtrio: Dugtrio! With Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull, and Pursuit gone this is really the only trapper in the metagame that doesn't take a turn to set up. And it's good at it.
:ss/hydreigon: Hydreigon is a nice Nasty Plot user or scarfer. It's strong, has good coverage, and has good bulk for an offensive mon. I'm not a huge fan of its other sets (Clangorous Soul or Dragon Dance) but I've seen them.

tl;dr
here are the sets if u can't be bothered to read any of that
Tyranitar (Chople, Band)
Cinderace (Band)
Rhyperior (Band, SD)
Flareon (SD)

Hydreigon (Scarf, Nasty Plot)
Dugtrio (Sash, Band)
 
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I got some sets...

Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Psychic Fangs

Hits with an extremely powerful Double Iron Bash, paired with Life Orb and Sheer Force, Boosted by Dragon Dance and STAB.
A similar set could be run with Rock Head and Head Smash.


Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Trick/Energy Ball

Basically a better version of Scarflosion, with 3 immunities, Trick, 145 base special attack, etc.


Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch

Huge Power Extreme Speed. Add some extra Swords Dance boosts, and this thing's ready to go and wreck stuff up.

Next off,

Barbaracle @ White Herb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Accelerock
- Crabhammer
- Poison Jab/Cross Chop

Since Fishious Rend got banned, Barbaracle lost some of its glory. But it still has the capability to sweep teams with its Tough Claws boosted STABs.


Hydreigon @ Throat Spray
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Clangorous Soul
- Power Trip
- Dragon Darts
- Flash Cannon
You could run a similar set with substitute, although it would run short of coverage.

THAT'S ALL FOLKS!
 

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
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Quickban Update #3:
:ss/Obstagoon: :ss/Snorlax: :ss/Braviary: :ss/Diggersby:
Ok so after analyzing the metagame post Dynamax and Darmanitan-G, Extreme Speed has been a point of contention that a lot of STABmons players have brought up and is not hard to see why. The move offers Normal-type sweepers, mainly being Obstagoon, Braviary, Snorlax, and Diggersby, the ability to completely sweep through offensive teams lacking Ghost-types such as Dragapult, Gengar, and Mimikyu. This combined with their access to Swords Dance and own respective STAB / coverage options to break through their respective checks has warped the meta extremely in their favor and makes it extremely hard to build especially with the meta already being filled to the brim with offensive threats besides the Espeed abusers. With this in mind, the STABmons council has voted to quickban Extreme Speed on any non-native learner in order to have a less centralized metagame before the STABmons open advances any further.

We had discussed Obstagoon potentially being the main source of the issue as it is obviously the main abuser of the move with the most efficiency of sweeping, however we ultimately decided that the move as a whole pushed way too many Normal physical breakers off the edge when combined with Swords Dance support, thus leading us to focus our attention to the move instead.

We will continue discussing other potential issues brought up such as Dragapult and Bolt Beak (especially when home drops) but for now this was the most pressing issue.

Tagging The Immortal or Kris thanks!
 

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator

Quickban Update #4: Home Edition

Following Pokemon Home Release, many new radical changes and additions have been added to the tier with the influx of new mythical and legendary pokemon. Most of the legendaries that have returned however pose a significant threat to the metagame with there above average stats and movepools that get further enhanced thanks to the metagame's mechanic. As a result the council has decided to quickban the following:
  • :Mewtwo: Mewtwo
  • :Reshiram: Reshiram
  • :Zekrom: Zekrom
  • :Kyurem-White: Kyurem-W
  • :Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-B
  • :Solgaleo: Solgaleo
  • :Lunala: Lunala
  • :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: Necrozma-DM
  • :Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: Necrozma-DW
  • :Marshadow: Marshadow
With these bans in mind, the metagame will still be shaken up quite a bit with the remaining additions, most notably being threats like Terrakion, Jirachi, Zeraora, Keldeo, and Cobalion all returning.

The council will be addressing the fate of certain moves like Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak shortly, so stay tuned.

Tagging Kris or The Immortal thanks!

Edit: Also forgot to mention but Betathunder and W0rd will no longer be on the STABmons council, we thank them for their contributions.
 
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Quickban Update #4: Home Edition

Following Pokemon Home Release, many new radical changes and additions have been added to the tier with the influx of new mythical and legendary pokemon. Most of the legendaries that have returned however pose a significant threat to the metagame with there above average stats and movepools that get further enhanced thanks to the metagame's mechanic. As a result the council has decided to quickban the following:
  • :Mewtwo: Mewtwo
  • :Reshiram: Reshiram
  • :Zekrom: Zekrom
  • :Kyurem-White: Kyurem-W
  • :Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-B
  • :Solgaleo: Solgaleo
  • :Lunala: Lunala
  • :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: Necrozma-DM
  • :Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: Necrozma-DW
  • :Marshadow: Marshadow
With these bans in mind, the metagame will still be shaken up quite a bit with the remaining additions, most notably being threats like Terrakion, Jirachi, Zeraora, Keldeo, and Cobalion all returning. Could moves such as Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak be pushed over the edge with more viable abusers? Are there new (or previously existing) threats that still deserve attention for a possible ban? Discuss! The council will be making a follow-up update after gauging community input.

Tagging Kris or The Immortal thanks!
oh no whatever shall i do with kyurem white banned from stabmons all my teams are dead im quitting mons

Jirachi looks to be the best abuser of Double Iron Bash, although Cobalion also looks to be good with it. Jirachi just has Serene Grace, so Webs teams with Jirachi as the crux might become insane.

Melmetal itself also seems interesting with Bullet Punch. Can't do much else, maybe a gimmicky Autotomize set.

On the less interesting (but still interesting) side, Mew got Soft-Boiled and Roost back so it's more fun to use.
 
Quickban Update #4.5
After some discussion, the council has decided to quickban both Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak! Due to some communication errors between the council we didn’t include these bans in today’s earlier post, much apologies on our behalf.

That being said, the introduction of Home has definitely pushed these moves over the edge. While Double Iron Bash was already a huge discussion point over recent months due to Excadrill’s abuse of the move, Jirachi and Cobalion’s introduction makes it clear that Double Iron Bash is extremely uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame.

Bolt Beak’s ban was something that did require some more discussion, as there is only one “prominent” user in Zeraora, but the problem clearly stems from the move Bolt Beak itself. On top of that, there are plenty of fringe Bolt Beak users, such as Shift Gear Toxtricity, as well as Togedemaru and Pikachu that show that this 170BP move is the true issue.

Sorry again for this slight delay and miscommunication with the community, it was not our intention to keep these things unbanned any longer than they should be.

Tagging The Immortal
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Yay DIB ban :D

New mons!
:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion lost Diamond Storm this generation which sucks, but it also lost some of its better checks and counters. No more Landorus-Therian or Mega Slowbro means Terrak goes ham(x4) on basically the entire metagame not named Doublade or Aegislash.

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Rock STAB that's worse than Diamond Storm

Life Orb very definitely seems to be the item of choice thanks to this calc
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 352-417 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Band and Scarf are probably good as well
Terrakion @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Head Smash / Rock Blast / Rock Throw / Punk Rock
- Earthquake

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Blade: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 154-182 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:ss/keldeo:
My little pony will do exactly what it did last gen with 1) no Steam Eruption and 2) no competition from Ash-Greninja.
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Water Shuriken
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind / Air Slash

Pex will likely become more common to help deal with this thing, as not much else really does. Dragapult can check it well and eat any one hit but fails to OHKO back and is not a switchin.

:ss/grapploct:
I didn't mention Octolock. I don't think it's going to be the best set for any of these mons. Viable? Sure, probably. But in trying to craft sets with Octolock I have come to the conclusion that it's very demanding of moveslots. You want Octolock (of course), Protect or a Protect clone to stall for Octolock turns, and STAB moves. That leaves no room for recovery, Taunt, or Sub, which in turn leaves the Octolock user vulnerable a lot of the time. However it can be useful for doing stuff like taking a counter (say Pex for Keld) and turning it into a deadmon. But that tends to work best on passive switchins, which aren't very common or that great in STABmons.

Overall I think the new abusers of Octolock (aka The Swords of Justice) will be better off with other sets. Swords Dance for Terrakion, choice items for Keldeo (maybe CM), not being used for Virizion, and some weird Body Press set for Cobalion. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.

:ss/melmetal:
Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Double Iron Bash
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower

Melmetal set!
It's EV'd to outpace 0 speed Hippowdon so you can 2hko it with Double Iron Bash before they can Slack Off / EQ you. Thunder Punch gibs Corviknight, Gyarados, and some other Water types. Superpower... I think it usually KOs Rotom-A after SR and lefties but the calc is broken with regards to Superpower's percentages
252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This set hits p damn hard. With your priority you can revenge kill some potent offensive threats from varying HPs

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 177-208 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Obstagoon: 138-163 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 153-180 (47 - 55.3%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO

and smack around bulky mons
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 242-286 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Corv can Roost, but it comes out with chip damage, meaning it cannot counter repeatedly.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you're EV'd to outspeed)

Melmetal is strong and bulky and has priority! Give it a try.
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Sorry for the double post but...
:ss/melmetal:
Although Melmetal has been banned from Overused we are NOT banning it in STABmons at this time. The council has discussed Melmetal and we feel that there is more couterplay which can be explored in STABmons than exists in OU, and that we would like to see how Melmetal fits into the metagame for a bit longer.

As STABmons does not directly follow the Overused banlist OU bans do not apply by default.

Feel free to discuss whether or not you believe Melmetal should be suspected or banned in the thread :drampa:
 
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Melmetal’s main job is to do tons of physical damage while tanking tons of hits, not much else.
Melmetal in regular OU would always need to be burned, but after being burned, it would be pretty useless for anything other than soaking up hits.

Tricky part was burning it in the first place, which there weren’t that many options, and attempting to burn Melmetal would severally cripple your own since so little things had reliable recovery.

Only Max Physical Bulk Gastrodon could face up against Melmetal’s coverage reliably, try burning it, and could recover afterwards.

But in STABmons, you have so many more ways to burn Pokemon and reliable recovery is more abundant.
And hey, maybe in the future, Beak Blast and Sacred Fire may be released too.
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Some sets to start because why not
:ss/slurpuff:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Facade / Moonlight / Sticky Web


This set is actually pretty nice in the current metagame. Setting up can be a pain, but once you have set up you outpace everything unboosted, and since scarfers are pretty rare cuz everyone is using Dragapult instead (and most dont even outspeed Unburden'd Slurpuff anyway), you mostly only have to worry about priority. Slurpuff is best used late game when the opponents team is worn down a bit so Slurpuff can get the KOs it needs.

It doesn't particularly like the addition of Terrakion and Keldeo because they can both revenge it if it gets hit too hard setting up, and it doesn't exactly have world class bulk. Other issues include the existence of Corviknight and Strength Sap in general meaning that anything with the move it doesn't OHKO just sits there and wins.

:ss/darmanitan:
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide


I talk about this more down below. This set is broken. You play it by clicking V-Create ~90% of the time, keeping rocks off the field so you can pivot in over and over, and laugh as you 2hko bulky resists. Other coverage is an option I guess, but the only thing I can think of that you'd want is Superpower and that doesn't gain anything over V-Create + EQ. You don't really click your coverage other than U-Turn anyway.

Good support is excellent hazard removal, good pivoting, and Sticky Webs. The first one is pretty mandatory, the second you definitely want but can get away without, and the third is just a nice addition that Darmanitan abuses well. Rotom-W is annoying for this set but if you U-Turn on it and keep rocks up it can't switch in again. Rotom-H is also annoying but you can just Rock Slide it.

...
I've seen some other lit sets the past couple weeks but they're not mine and the people who used them might still want to use them in the open so I'll hold off on posting anything here.


And now meta commentary
:ss/dragapult: Dragapult
I think the time has come to look at Dragapult. It is far too hard to switch into for a Pokemon with such absurdly high Speed. It is splashable on nearly every team, making not preparing for it an impossibility, yet preparing for it bends the structure of teams to a huge degree thanks to its flexibility, amazing dual STAB, and the fact that the very few things that actually outspeed it don't want to eat its hits.

Type: Null and SpD Grimmsnarl are the only two true counters I've seen come up with, neither of which is much good otherwise IMO (Grimmsnarl isn't bad but you'd definitely want another set). Tyranitar is a decent check but far too weak to U-Turn, especially from Band, as well as being vulnerable to being outplayed around Sucker Punch. Otherwise you usually have to run multiple checks or lose.

Pult finds a ton of opportunities to come in, whether as a revenge killer, being pivoted in, or abusing its good defensive typing (s/o :giratina:).

Overall: Pult warps the metagame way too much at the teambuilding level. Every team MUST be prepared for Dragapult, and to do so it must either run one of two very specific things or run multiple rather specific checks. I won't say much more because I know others feel more strongly about this than I, but I think it's time we started the process.
Dragapult has cemented itself as the primary choice for a huge number of roles, even this early in the metagame.
Answering Dragpult reliably is difficult for any team. Gonna do this with bullets instead of the text wall I had initially because it looks nicer and there's less fluff.
  • Resists or is immune to many forms of priority, Extreme Speed being BY FAR the most important
  • Outspeeds the unboosted tier besides a Ninjask and Accelgor, which are only semi-viable and only as leads.
    • The above two points make revenge killing Dragapult difficult.
  • Dual STABs have very good coverage.
  • Can run either physical or special sets, which have largely different sets of walls, making playing against it a guessing game until the set is revealed.
  • Has access to U-Turn to maintain momentum and get chip damage, which it uses very well due to its Speed forcing an absurd number of switches.
On the other hand Dragapult does have some weaknesses that make counterplay possible
  • Both STAB attacks have immunities
  • Most frequently runs Choice items, which can leave it vulnerable
    • The above two points combine to make Dragapult have a difficult time cleaning teams without using one of its less common sweeper sets. A Normal type + a Fairy type can frequently provide sufficient counterplay with minimal prediction.
  • Attacking stats are fairly low. If faced with a bulky mon not weak to one of its STABs there is a high chance it will be walled. This is not an enormous problem as Dragapult is not primarily a wallbreaker, however it can upset momentum versus balanced teams.
Overall: Dragapult has essentially replaced scarfers on my teams. It's absurdly fast, strong enough, and unpredictable as to which side of the spectrum it hits on. If Corviknight wasn't in the metagame I think it would already be quickbanned, but as it is I think we should be discussing whether we want to keep it or not. If Extreme Speed gets banned its Speed controlling capabilities will likely become even more important due to the loss of the most important revenge killing tool, although I wouldn't rely on non-scarf Dragapult to outspeed boosted stuff (it's not THAT fast; stuff like +1 Haxorus still outpaces you :)
I don't necessarily still agree with all of this. I know that while I still usually run Choice Dragapult, other people have begun to migrate to other sets such as Dragon Dance in addition. This makes relying on Choice lock to check Dragapult not an option. Also Espeed immunity isn't really that relevant any more :X Sucker Punch is, in my experience, the most common priority. This is largely because Dragapult is so common, but also because we have good Dark types like Obstagoon, who only partially take their viability from Dragapult's dominance. Either way it hurts Pult to some degree.


I think you forgot its primary check, which is full def Sylveon. It can tank any move and ohko back. Steel Wing is pretty bad. It's 2hkoed by banded Spectral Thief, but bearly (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ), so you're able to pivot around quite easily. I think Dragapult isn't too unhealthy fo the metagame. V-Create is a far more concerning problem.
Sylveon is certainly one of the best checks to Dragapult, and a counter to Specs (not with that spread though, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery), but it is, by definition, not a counter to every set, as you yourself showed with your Band calc. I certainly did not forget Sylveon's existence, but I don't believe it's enough to keep Dragapult from being broken.

I will say that I don't think this is necessarily an easy ban. I think a suspect would be a better way forward than a QB for Dragapult in particular.
:ss/victini: V-Create
:darmanitan::cinderace:

V-Create is proving to be a problematic move. It is extremely spammable in this metagame with Toxapex being fairly uncommon, the lack of Pursuit making Tyranitar incapable of punishing the defense drops, and most of the other resists being too frail to reliably take the V-Creates or coverage of the two primary abusers.

Most of the primary Dragon-types can't switch into Darmanitan even once
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-347 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-299 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 264-312 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

note that these are all Jolly: Adamant is absolutely an option and confirms many of these KOs that are chances or require rocks now.

Other Fire resists usually die to coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 374-442 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 279-328 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (oh no u need Adamant... or just U-Turn on it once)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 209-246 (51.7 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Much of the counterplay to Darmanitan comes from outspeeding it and guess what! Cinderace is absurdly fast, while still being very difficult to tank hits from.

Rotom-Wash stands out to me as the single thing keeping V-Create in check. With Strength Sap it is capable of surviving the 2hko from both Darmanitan and Cinderace (although respectively Band Rock Slide and High Jump Kick can give you issues if you predict wrong). Obligatory plug for OM Analyses project here and specifically the Rotom-W analysis here :D.

Any team without Rotom-W, Rain, or the ability to keep enough momentum to keep Darmanitan and Cinderace off the field are likely going to lose a mon or be heavily chipped every time they get brought in. Given that they aren't hard to bring in multiple times per match from my experience (pivoting, on Sylveon, on various mons they outspeed) it can be very difficult to keep your team intact with one on the opposing team.

Now the million dollar question... why V-Create and not Darmanitan + Cinderace?
While these two are by far the best and most broken abusers of the move, and Darmanitan's arrival is what I feel has pushed it over the edge, other Pokemon are also capable of abusing the move.
:arcanine::incineroar::centiskorch:
No Flareon because it kinda sucks with no Espeed, use Arcanine

Arcanine, Incineroar, and Centiskorch are all underexplored in the current metagame, largely because the big two physical Fires are much better and easier to use.

Centiskorch has seen use as a Webs setter. I used it on several teams in DIB meta because I'm a degenerate. Webs is still pretty good, and other good setters aren't that abundant. V-Create enables it to hit pretty hard for a utility Pokemon that runs Heavy Duty Boots, but I've found it to be non-teambreaking in general.

Incineroar's speed is low and its Attack is significantly worse than Darmanitan's, but it makes up for that to some degree with access to Sucker Punch. The ability to revenge kill Dragapult (and Gengar) is always nice, and U-Turn + Intimidate is a good combo even if its bulk is only passable. Dark is a good typing in this metagame, even with no Pursuit. Incin also gets a ton of coverage due to being GF's favorite cat wrestler thing, and can run any of EQ, CC, Thunder Punch, or even Outrage if you're desperate to hit Dragon-types. Obviously you can't hit everything at once, but it's obscene levels of coverage mean Pokemon like Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Tyranitar can't be overly confident switching into an unscouted Incineroar.

Arcanine I haven't seen, used, or theorymonned besides thinking it might be the next Flareon with different moves. Might be cool though. CC decimates Rock types and Hydreigon, Espeed is Espeed, STAB V-Create is STAB V-Create.

Overall: I find singlehandedly breaking two mons and pushing at least three more shitmons (sorry skorch) into potential usability is worthy of it being the move rather than the mons.

EDIT: After some discussion about V-Create In The Hills pointed out that Darmanitan still gets Pyro Ball, and still smashes through pretty much everything with it, without lowering Speed or defenses. The lack of recoil compared to Flare Blitz is a huge boon for Darmanitan and lets it spam the move without much fear.

I had more but then i clicked one of the links at the top of my browser and lost them. C'est la vie.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Rotom-Wash: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. Bulletproof Kommo-o: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 182-215 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


So, what I now have to ask: Is Darmanitan the issue, or is V-Create? Is Cinderace problematic enough to constitute a problem on its own without Darmanitan? Would banning V-Create solve the issues Darmanitan is causing?

Overall I think this is still pretty early and I don't want to rush a ban because I haven't actually seen many people abusing the big red ape, and I think Cinderace is still more popular.

Please give us feedback :) The council wants to know what the community thinks
 
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Type: Null and SpD Grimmsnarl are the only two true counters I've seen come up with
I think you forgot its primary check, which is full def Sylveon. It can tank any move and ohko back. Steel Wing is pretty bad. It's 2hkoed by banded Spectral Thief, but bearly (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ), so you're able to pivot around quite easily. I think Dragapult isn't too unhealthy fo the metagame. V-Create is a far more concerning problem.
 

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam / Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
or
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 21 Spe
- Moongeist Beam / Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
I once tried this and it seems decent, i guess... The first set has speed investment to outspeed Corviknight in order to avoid getting PP Stalled by Roost + Pressure as much as possible. If its not your problem, then used the second spread, which allow Aegislash to take a hit in its Shield forme while outspeeding Hippowdon. The Defense investments also always prevents Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball or Anchor Shot from breaking its Sub in its Blade Forme.

Going to dump the teams I used in open.
:rotom-heat::tyranitar::dragapult::excadrill::sylveon::seismitoad: Used in R1:G1
:aegislash::dragapult::sylveon::seismitoad::corviknight::tyranitar: Used in R1:G2
(Pre-Home is outdated, used the one below)
:corviknight::sylveon::aegislash::seismitoad::dragapult::rotom-heat: Used in R2:G1
:pelipper::ludicolo::keldeo::dracovish::ferrothorn::sylveon: Used in R2:G2
:terrakion::gengar::dragapult::sylveon::seismitoad::corviknight: Used in R2:G3
Now my playtime on STAB is limited to mostly tours because the ladder is dead everytime i wanted to...
 
Some sets to start because why not
:ss/slurpuff:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Facade / Moonlight / Sticky Web


This set is actually pretty nice in the current metagame. Setting up can be a pain, but once you have set up you outpace everything unboosted, and since scarfers are pretty rare cuz everyone is using Dragapult instead (and most dont even outspeed Unburden'd Slurpuff anyway), you mostly only have to worry about priority. Slurpuff is best used late game when the opponents team is worn down a bit so Slurpuff can get the KOs it needs.

It doesn't particularly like the addition of Terrakion and Keldeo because they can both revenge it if it gets hit too hard setting up, and it doesn't exactly have world class bulk. Other issues include the existence of Corviknight and Strength Sap in general meaning that anything with the move it doesn't OHKO just sits there and wins.

:ss/darmanitan:
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide


I talk about this more down below. This set is broken. You play it by clicking V-Create ~90% of the time, keeping rocks off the field so you can pivot in over and over, and laugh as you 2hko bulky resists. Other coverage is an option I guess, but the only thing I can think of that you'd want is Superpower and that doesn't gain anything over V-Create + EQ. You don't really click your coverage other than U-Turn anyway.

Good support is excellent hazard removal, good pivoting, and Sticky Webs. The first one is pretty mandatory, the second you definitely want but can get away without, and the third is just a nice addition that Darmanitan abuses well. Rotom-W is annoying for this set but if you U-Turn on it and keep rocks up it can't switch in again. Rotom-H is also annoying but you can just Rock Slide it.

...
I've seen some other lit sets the past couple weeks but they're not mine and the people who used them might still want to use them in the open so I'll hold off on posting anything here.


And now meta commentary
:ss/dragapult: Dragapult
I think the time has come to look at Dragapult. It is far too hard to switch into for a Pokemon with such absurdly high Speed. It is splashable on nearly every team, making not preparing for it an impossibility, yet preparing for it bends the structure of teams to a huge degree thanks to its flexibility, amazing dual STAB, and the fact that the very few things that actually outspeed it don't want to eat its hits.

Type: Null and SpD Grimmsnarl are the only two true counters I've seen come up with, neither of which is much good otherwise IMO (Grimmsnarl isn't bad but you'd definitely want another set). Tyranitar is a decent check but far too weak to U-Turn, especially from Band, as well as being vulnerable to being outplayed around Sucker Punch. Otherwise you usually have to run multiple checks or lose.

Pult finds a ton of opportunities to come in, whether as a revenge killer, being pivoted in, or abusing its good defensive typing (s/o :giratina:).

Overall: Pult warps the metagame way too much at the teambuilding level. Every team MUST be prepared for Dragapult, and to do so it must either run one of two very specific things or run multiple rather specific checks. I won't say much more because I know others feel more strongly about this than I, but I think it's time we started the process.
I don't necessarily still agree with all of this. I know that while I still usually run Choice Dragapult, other people have begun to migrate to other sets such as Dragon Dance in addition. This makes relying on Choice lock to check Dragapult not an option. Also Espeed immunity isn't really that relevant any more :X Sucker Punch is, in my experience, the most common priority. This is largely because Dragapult is so common, but also because we have good Dark types like Obstagoon, who only partially take their viability from Dragapult's dominance. Either way it hurts Pult to some degree.



Sylveon is certainly one of the best checks to Dragapult, and a counter to Specs (not with that spread though, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery), but it is, by definition, not a counter to every set, as you yourself showed with your Band calc. I certainly did not forget Sylveon's existence, but I don't believe it's enough to keep Dragapult from being broken.

I will say that I don't think this is necessarily an easy ban. I think a suspect would be a better way forward than a QB for Dragapult in particular.
:ss/victini: V-Create
:darmanitan::cinderace:

V-Create is proving to be a problematic move. It is extremely spammable in this metagame with Toxapex being fairly uncommon, the lack of Pursuit making Tyranitar incapable of punishing the defense drops, and most of the other resists being too frail to reliably take the V-Creates or coverage of the two primary abusers.

Most of the primary Dragon-types can't switch into Darmanitan even once
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-347 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-299 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 264-312 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 192-226 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

note that these are all Jolly: Adamant is absolutely an option and confirms many of these KOs that are chances or require rocks now.

Other Fire resists usually die to coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 374-442 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 279-328 (86.3 - 101.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (oh no u need Adamant... or just U-Turn on it once)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 209-246 (51.7 - 60.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Much of the counterplay to Darmanitan comes from outspeeding it and guess what! Cinderace is absurdly fast, while still being very difficult to tank hits from.

Rotom-Wash stands out to me as the single thing keeping V-Create in check. With Strength Sap it is capable of surviving the 2hko from both Darmanitan and Cinderace (although respectively Band Rock Slide and High Jump Kick can give you issues if you predict wrong). Obligatory plug for OM Analyses project here and specifically the Rotom-W analysis here :D.

Any team without Rotom-W, Rain, or the ability to keep enough momentum to keep Darmanitan and Cinderace off the field are likely going to lose a mon or be heavily chipped every time they get brought in. Given that they aren't hard to bring in multiple times per match from my experience (pivoting, on Sylveon, on various mons they outspeed) it can be very difficult to keep your team intact with one on the opposing team.

Now the million dollar question... why V-Create and not Darmanitan + Cinderace?
While these two are by far the best and most broken abusers of the move, and Darmanitan's arrival is what I feel has pushed it over the edge, other Pokemon are also capable of abusing the move.
:arcanine::incineroar::centiskorch:
No Flareon because it kinda sucks with no Espeed, use Arcanine

Arcanine, Incineroar, and Centiskorch are all underexplored in the current metagame, largely because the big two physical Fires are much better and easier to use.

Centiskorch has seen use as a Webs setter. I used it on several teams in DIB meta because I'm a degenerate. Webs is still pretty good, and other good setters aren't that abundant. V-Create enables it to hit pretty hard for a utility Pokemon that runs Heavy Duty Boots, but I've found it to be non-teambreaking in general.

Incineroar's speed is low and its Attack is significantly worse than Darmanitan's, but it makes up for that to some degree with access to Sucker Punch. The ability to revenge kill Dragapult (and Gengar) is always nice, and U-Turn + Intimidate is a good combo even if its bulk is only passable. Dark is a good typing in this metagame, even with no Pursuit. Incin also gets a ton of coverage due to being GF's favorite cat wrestler thing, and can run any of EQ, CC, Thunder Punch, or even Outrage if you're desperate to hit Dragon-types. Obviously you can't hit everything at once, but it's obscene levels of coverage mean Pokemon like Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Tyranitar can't be overly confident switching into an unscouted Incineroar.

Arcanine I haven't seen, used, or theorymonned besides thinking it might be the next Flareon with different moves. Might be cool though. CC decimates Rock types and Hydreigon, Espeed is Espeed, STAB V-Create is STAB V-Create.

Overall: I find singlehandedly breaking two mons and pushing at least three more shitmons (sorry skorch) into potential usability is worthy of it being the move rather than the mons.

EDIT: After some discussion about V-Create In The Hills pointed out that Darmanitan still gets Pyro Ball, and still smashes through pretty much everything with it, without lowering Speed or defenses. The lack of recoil compared to Flare Blitz is a huge boon for Darmanitan and lets it spam the move without much fear.

I had more but then i clicked one of the links at the top of my browser and lost them. C'est la vie.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Rotom-Wash: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. Bulletproof Kommo-o: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 182-215 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


So, what I now have to ask: Is Darmanitan the issue, or is V-Create? Is Cinderace problematic enough to constitute a problem on its own without Darmanitan? Would banning V-Create solve the issues Darmanitan is causing?

Overall I think this is still pretty early and I don't want to rush a ban because I haven't actually seen many people abusing the big red ape, and I think Cinderace is still more popular.

Please give us feedback :) The council wants to know what the community thinks
Gonna throw out my agreement with drampa on Dragapult, though I’m slightly more on the fence. I think that Specs is certainly a manageable set stop running specs it sucks, while Band is where I find issue. When you pair having to prep for both of these at the same time, Dragapult is very hard to manage. Top that off with how easy it is to capitalize on limited counterplay with U-Turn to gain momentum, I think the metagame would be better off with Dragapult gone.

Now onto the main part of my post, Darmanitan vs V-Create. While V-Create very well may be an issue, I think that right now it’s much more pressing to focus on Darmanitan, who is a key user of V-Create. Darmanitan is unique in that even though it has V-Create, its other Fire STAB, Pyro Ball, is almost just as threatening, and in some very relevant cases is even better. Sheer Force boosted Pyro Ball has 156 base power before STAB bonus vs V-Create’s 180 BP, and the small drop in power is quickly made up for by the fact that Pyro Ball doesn’t lower Darmanitan’s Speed. This allows Darm to break through checks and without the risk of being outsped the second turn, and reduces the threat of revenge killers. These are some freedoms other V-Create users don’t have. Darmanitan also has better coverage that other V-Create users don’t have with Earthquake and Rock Slide that can break some would-be checks like Tyranitar and defensive Gyarados

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 415-490 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 280-330 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 350-412 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs alone should be more than enough to show that Darm’s breaking capabilities are a step above the average V-Create user. While I can’t say for sure whether V-Create is broken without Darmanitan (leaning towards probably but that’s a bridge we can cross later), I can say for sure that Darmanitan is broken whether we ban V-Create or not.
 

Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
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Quickban Update #5:

:ss/Darmanitan:
Darmanitan has been quickbanned

Thanks to it's access to a recoiless equivalent to Flare Blitz in Pyro Ball (albeit having slightly less accuracy), Darmanitan has been ravishing the tier with both it's Choice Scarf and Choice Band sets. Sheer Force + it's incredible Attack stat enables enables it to 2HKO nearly every switchin in the tier when backed up with a Choice Band, where weather conditions such as Sun further enhance it's wallbreaking capabilities. Access to the incredibly powerful V-Create also enables it to punish more sturdier switchins as well, where foes who are able to tank 2 Pyro Balls usually fail to stomach the boosted power of STAB boosted V-Create. Darmanitan does still suffer from the same issues it's Galarian form faced, mainly due to it's fragility thanks to it's poor bulk and SR weak typing. Also, certain checks such as Bulletroof Physdef Kommo-o do exist and can usually stop Darmanitan from spamming it's STAB and force it to pivot out.

However, Darmanitan still remains to be an incredibly potent threat that provides too much wallbreaking support to a tier with an abundance of already hard hitting threats such as Dragapult, Terrakion, Obstagoon, and Melmetal. We have decided to address Darmanitan first instead of V-Create as the council believed that it is the most potent and potentially sole broken abuser of the move, however we will keep a close eye on other threats who still can use the move to great success such as Cinderace and Centiskorch and will assess if the move itself needs to be looked at down the line. Regardless, the council unanimously agrees that Darmanitan would still be broken even without the presence of V-Create, thus making this an easy decision for us to make.

Here are some calcs / replays of it's power:
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 186-219 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 379-447 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 171-201 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 236 HP / 40 Def Rotom-Heat: 123-144 (41 - 48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(can still use Rock Slide if it predicts correctly)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1065873699
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1070761567
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1070767859

Keep a look out for more updates as the metagame progresses. Have Fun playing!

Kris
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Thought I'd post some explanation about some of my votes as to rankings on the recent STABmons viability ranking update. I'm not going to promise to do everything or to write essays about everything, but I thought I should share my reasoning for at least the top couple ranks.

Ranks are sorted by how I voted, not by how the eventual vote went.
:dragapult: Final Result: S
Dragapult is the most dominant offensive threat in the metagame bar none. It's incredibly difficult to switch into, especially if its set hasn't been scouted, provides nearly unparalleled speed control, and has a typing that's awesome both offensively and defensively. There's just nothing that can compare to how easy it is to slap Dragapult on a team and how overall threatening it is to face. Dragapult changes the face of the metagame and every bit deserves its S rank, and I don't think anyone who's played much disagrees at this point.

:kingdra: Final Result: Unranked
I put this here as a joke because I forgot it didn't exist and Hills lol'd at me.

:inthehillssucks: Final Result: In The Hills sucks
In The Hills sucks (yes these two were on my rankings)
:corviknight: Final Result: S
I was the only holdout from ranking Corv in S. While it's certainly a splashable and potent defensive Pokemon, I don't think it can stand up to Dragapult in terms of how effective it is. Pult stands head and shoulders over everything else as far as I'm concerned and I wanted the rankings to reflect that.

:obstagoon: Final Result: A+
Obstagoon is one of the "broken" wallbreakers in the metagame right now. It's absurdly hard to switch into, and while without Extreme Speed it isn't the same cleaner it used to be Sucker Punch allows it to play revenge killer for the meta's OP ghosts (cough Pult cough) while still breaking everything in half with Facade. Its Normal typing is really useful as a soft-counter / check for Dragapult too, especially when paired with Sylveon, another amazing mon. tl;dr hits hard af and is super difficult to counter, Sucker Punch gives it nice utility.

:sylveon: Final Result: A+
I was initially going to place Sylveon at A rather than A+. I feel that its bulk can be a little on the low side for what it often wants to do. Not to say its not an excellent utility and support Pokemon, but I was finding it just a little worse than I wanted out of an A+ mon. However I started using Specs briefly, and faced Life Orb (I'm not recommending btw), and the extra power is really nice in the current metagame, overwhelming Pokemon like Corviknight and even Toxapex (useless mon smh) which try to counter it usually. Sylveon also provides all the insane utility it always does: status support, cleric support, Spin support, normaltypeshavewaytoomanymoves support, and because of Pixilate it's just... so irreplaceable. I still feel that Sylveon sometimes requires more skill to use than something like Chansey which can just sit in front of attacks forever could, but it definitely deserves the A+ for its flexibility, lack of passivity, and the utility that it brings to nearly every team.

:terrakion: Final Result: A+
Broke mon hit hard. Priority make broke mon better sweeper. Terrakion is a known quantity and honestly the main thing that changed this gen is that Diamond Storm hax >>>>>>>> Stone Edge hax. Hardwalls are few on the ground given that Terrak can OHKO Corv after rocks at +2, and faster threats are often not terribly difficult to chip into Accelerock / Mach Punch range. Everyone else agreed and I think this isn't a controversial one overall.

:rotom-heat: Final Result: A
Another one where I was the only person to rank this here, everyone else putting it in A alongside Rotom-W. I find Rotom-H more effective overall in the current metagame than Rotom-W, and while that alone isn't enough to put a rank between them, I think it's justified. Rotom-H is the most reliable / effective counter to several good mons, notably including Sylveon and Corviknight. It's never passive thanks to its absurd movepool, which also grants it all the utility it could want, and the only things really holding it back are average stats and horrific 4mss. Still Heatom has proven itself to be an easy gluemon that can be tailored to most teams. Try Specs btw it's lit.
:rotom-wash: Final Result: A
Rotom-Wash has a lot of the same things going for it as Rotom-Heat, which I ranked in A+. However I find the lack of a Fairy resist, the lack of an Electric resist, and the Grass weakness to be major flaws which aren't made up for by much. The Water resist looks nice on paper but
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 166-196 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
you don't reliably switch into the stuff I really want my fat water resist to. Other than that it's pretty much similar to Heatom; super big movepool, barely enough stats, nice typing. The one thing I really like about Rotom-Wash over Rotom-Heat is that STAB Water moves threaten fire types, such as...

:cinderace: Final Result: A
Cinderace is super threatening offensively. It's not quite on the level of Terrakion or Obstagoon. Counters do exist, and it really really wants super solid hazard removal support. But most Pokemon don't want to tank a V-Create to the face, and Cinderace has the Speed to pull it off.

:kommo-o: Final Result: A
Kommo-o has been a rising star for awhile. It's sort of hard to describe briefly, but Kommo-o can do several very different sets well. It's among the best rocks setters, one of the best Rotom answers, threatening and unpredictable thanks to its different sets, and just overall a flexible threat capable of pulling its weight on many teams and scaring people at team preview. The main three sets I was considering were Iron Defense, Octolock, and Clangorous Soul. Octolock lets Kommo-O scare its would-be checks and counters like Sylveon, forcing them to double around if they think you might have it or trap them unexpectedly if they don't anticipate it. Iron Defense lets Kommo-o check a large portion of the physical metagame, including stuff like Cinderace which is hugely threatening otherwise. Overall: Kommo-o is a great mon. It has its weaknesses, mainly no recovery and literal type weaknesses which can be preyed upon, which prevent it being ranked higher, but it's a very effective mon in the current metagame.

:ferrothorn: Final Result: A
Ferrothorn is, as always, a cornerstone defensive mon and hazard setter. Strength Sap is a great move. Other than that it performs a lot like it does in OU. It's too passive to go in A+ but its typing and bulk are extremely useful for walling some potent Pokemon such as Dracovish. This vote was unanimous.
:aegislash: Final Result: A-
Aegislash is really nice in the current metagame. Terrakion has become really common and Aegislash has proven to be probably the best Pokemon that could be called a counter (although not the most reliable counter). Its Band set is particularly effective, being difficult to switch into and being an effective revenge killer, notably hitting Dragapult hard. Aegislash can come in pretty easily which is nice, and if played well has super-high stats effectively. Unfortunately Aegi is prone to getting worn down, and its low Speed, while a blessing for Stance Change, means it has to tank hits before it attacks unless it clicks priority.

:excadrill: Final Result: A-
Our final unanimous vote of the evening, Excadrill is in the A ranks because it's super hard to switch into thanks to its excellent dual STABs, Mold Breaker ignoring primarily Rotom's levitate but also other abilities, and its ability to boost its speed, and isn't higher because it's walled to death by Corviknight, and Hippowdon to an extent, while several other prominent Pokemon can deal with it more actively and prevent it from setting up. I'm just glad Double Iron Bash is gone.

:clefable: Final Result: B+
Clefable is a tricky mon to rank. It's an excellent Stealth Rock setter and a good check to Kommo-o and Dragapult along with the various other Fairy-weak mons which are ranked highly. Fairy/Fire is excellent coverage, and Clefable has a broad movepool to pick its moves from if you don't want Rocks. However competition from Sylveon is always there, and Clefable just isn't nearly as good here as OU thanks to everything hitting harder. I'm nowhere near confident I was right and am satisfied with B+.

:celebi: Final Result: B+
ITH and Funbot gave me shit for this because I don't run Corviknight enough. Celebi has basically no reliable switchins thanks to Apple Acid and has amazing longevity with Strength Sap. Something like Ferrothorn is just setup bait. Even Pressure Corviknight just gets Strength Sapped and Nasty Plotted on >_>. While its average speed can come up short it can always switch out and come back in again. B+ is underselling its balancebreaking utility I M O.
:zeraora: My Rank: B+ Final Rank: A

This ranking was changed last minute.
We had a big discussion in the council chat about Zeraora. I acknowledge it's a powerful offensive threat, but such things are no strangers to STABmons. Despite its incredible speed I don't see it as equivalent to the Pokemon in the A ranks. It brings next to no defensive utility, has no recovery besides memey Electrify and as such is vulnerable to chip damage (including Life Orb) putting it in range of common priority, and is just overall and effective but not incredible threat. I respectfully acknowledge that the others disagree, and that's why we voted.


I'm not going any lower tonight. I hope I was clear about my thoughts, and didn't veer too much into the realm of "this is what this mon does!"
Let me know if there's anything else you'd like me to clarify on, and I'll slap it in the Other category.

Anyway I'm glad we finally got the ranks up and we really, genuinely want y'alls feedback.

drampa:drampa:
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
QUICKBAN UPDATE #6

:ss/heliolisk::ss/zeraora:
Electrify has been Quickbanned on non-native learners

Following input from some community members and discussion among the council, we have determined that Electrify is an unhealthy and uncompetitive element in the STABmons metagame.

Electrify's ability to nullify attacks from anything slower combined with passive damage such as Toxic made matches one-sided and prediction reliant, and the primary abuser, Zeraora, outspeeds the viable unboosted metagame, making outpacing it unrealistic without priority in a metagame with few common scarfers.

We discussed Zeraora and whether it was the source of the problem thanks to its excellent Speed tier. However the existence of other abusers, most notably Dracozolt, made us decide that Electrify was the source of the problem and the best choice for a ban.

This ban will NOT effect the current week of OMGS.

Replays:
Chiori Mikami v Morytha

Please let me know if you have any good replays of Electrify, unfortunately I don't have many right now

Tagging The Immortal and Kris
 

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