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STABmons Viability Rankings Thread v3 ✿

Eevee General said:
Is Landorus-T still S-rank worthy?
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I wanted to post about it before, but I thought the general consensus was that it should stay, so I didn't bother. Anyways I feel he has the same problems in STABmons as he does in OU. This is that he really must commit to a set to be truly threatening even though he can potentially do many things and be super versatile. Defensive sets often lack the proper amount of power to be truly threatening, while Offensive sets can be very easy to take down. And he can't run and be everything at once. Also mentioned previously is that he struggles against a large majority of the metas top threats and can often be deadweight against certain matchups in my testing. I think a drop to A+ is quite suitable.
 
Bumping....

First, Hoopa-U was banned so lets get rid of that. Here are some other noms:

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Landorus-T S -> A+: So this was mentioned before and I would like to reiterate and stress it once more. Landorus-T to me faces the same problems in STABmons as it does in OU, in which it tries to compress to many roles in one slot. Although it can do this to an extent, you simply cannot cover all the threats you want to and threaten the majority of walls at the same time. Bulky SR sets are usually stopped by fat mons and offensive sets cannot check power physical attackers such as Mega Charizard-X and Terrakion all that efficiently. Its a great mon when it gets to do what it was intended for, but the lack of consistency does not place it as a S-Rank mon imo.

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Mega Diancie A -> A+: This mon is super scary and is definitely above all the other A-Rank mons right now. Physically orientated mixed sets are extremely efficient (ie: Diamond Storm, Play Rough, Earth Power/HP Fire, Protect) and lets Mega Diancie check many top threats in Mega Zard-Y, Tornadus-T, Kyureum-B, and Latios. The lack of speed prematurely and its weakness to Bullet Punch does hinder it slightly, but overall Mega Diancie is a great offensive threat that is especially good since its not weak to FakeSpeed.

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Clefable A -> A-: So I have been trying to use Clefable and it hasn't really been offering that much. CM Unaware sets don't really wall much stuff since everything has powerful moves now compared to OU, and its lack of solid bulk really hinders it from effectively walling setup sweepers. The transition to a more offensive metagame just does not really help Clef in the longrun, as it cannot keep up with certain threats (for Ex: Lando can now 2HKO defensive Clef with Precicpice Blades and Dragon Ascent, Thundurus can wall out Clef with Oblivion Wing, Serperior can put Clef to sleep, etc..). Its a great mon, but can sometimes lack on certain areas at time.

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Starmie B+ to A-: I love Starmie as an offensive spinner as it can beat out most hazard setters and can remain an offensive threat with its high base speed and decent Special attack. Water/Psychic is great typing in conjunction with its moderate bulk as well, which gives it many opportunities to get a spin off. The use of Scrappy spinners and Pursuit does overshadow it a bit, but it still can outlast these shortcomings most of the time (at least with my testing), and can definitely be brought up to the A rankings because of this.

I will shut up now and let others discuss :)
 
yes, yes, no, undecided

you hit the points with mega diancie / landorus-t and i agree, so yeah

clefable is still a cute mon :( cm unaware is awful don't use that. use a magic guard set. i just run soft-boiled/thunderwave/moonblast/[fire blast/coverage] and it does wonders :3. it's seriously not a bad mon and it shouldn't be in a-.

i've not used starmie much, but it does seem interesting. i don't know so much about a- though since i've not actually seen it used effectively but i 100% understand the merit behind it. maybe i'll build a team with it :o

okay, also removed hoopa-u
 
starmie is really good, psycho boost is ridiculously strong and steam eruption is avail tomorrow which is another amazing tool for starmie. yes youre pursuit weak but its not like any pursuits are switching in on steam eruptions happily and at worse starmie can run reflect type (though generally it's meh). scrappy spinners are only useful for sab and gengar, and starmie obliterates gengar while sableye is both less common now and gets 2 shotted easily by steam eruption anyways (even without a burn). starmie has bolt beam as well if u wanna cover stuff like gyara better. not only that, but steam eruption will probably make other waters more viable and common, and starmie checks most (including the most relevant keldeo) well. it's a great mon, deserves a raise :3c
 
starmie is a mon that I have a strong feeling towards.

in terms of offensive power, both Psystrike and Psycho Boost are huge boosts to it. While people laugh at Analytic, switching into an Analytic Psycho Boost is rather hard to do if you're not a Dark-type (most don't appreciate an Analytic Origin Pulse) or Chansey (which you can run Psystrike over Psycho Boost over if you are particularly weak to Chansey). Origin Pulse is a slight boost, as it gives more accuracy to your Hydro Pump. You also have the option of running Steam Eruption instead for that burn chance and best accuracy on power STABs. It also has a wide movepool of coverage and support moves. You can run Lunar Dance on the offensive set, giving a lot of viabilty. Funnily, you can steal Latias's set, replacing Draco Meteor with Psycho Boost and Psyshock with any coverage move or Water STAB.

A new set that is possible in STABmons but not so much in OU is the idea of a Choice Specs set. Choice Spec Psycho Boosts and even Water Spouts are going to put dents into a lot of things, while it now gets Trick as an option. It would function a lot like the LO set, and is probably mostly outclassed by that set, but Trick makes Choice Specs at least sort of viable in my eyes, as the extra damage boost is appreciated.

We also have bulky support Starmie, which doesn't get much outside of Lunar Dance and some more gimmicky shit like Skill Swap or something. It is still a nice spinner for teams that have things that are weak to rocks like Zard-Y or Volcarona. It also dances around Starmie's Pursuit weakness sort of with Reflect Type. Since nothing really changed for the set, there really isn't much to talk about.

Finally, you can now run a Calm Mind set, which I think could be very potent due to Starmie's excellent speed. Scald pairs really well with Calm Mind due to its chance to burn, and you have Recovery and a wide range of moves to choose from. One notable move that pairs well with Calm Mind is Stored Power, which Starmie now has access too. Again, you can steal another one of Latias's set - this time, you can steal M-Lati's Mega CM set. Of course, I think the better set is CM / Recover / Scald / Stored Power, but hey w/e

The point I'm getting across is Starmie is super versatile, and fits really well in A- despite its short comings.
 
I was thinking of nomming Keldeo in S, but I wasn't too sure on others opinions on it. But basically it is an amazing mon that has several good qualities and is a real dominant threat in the current meta. I think my analyses of it covers most of the reasons why it should be considered a top tier :)

For Volcanion, I have been testing it out a bit and I think its a solid A rank mon. It hits uber hard with Steam Eruption and Blue Flare and can dismantle many balance builds in the meta. Its just that its Speed is really in such an offensive metagame and can kinda be exploited at times. I think A rank would fit it just right because of this, if not A+ (but I think thats kinda stretching it).

Speaking of analyses, can we link all the completed ones to the appropriate mons to act as a better resource for new players? I think it would help out a lot.

P.S Can we move the mons I suggested last time bar Clef, as I think everyone kinda agreed :)
 
okyy gonna do a revamp soon™. wanna get other's opinions.


but, small thing,

rotom-h: a -> a+. i truly feel that rotom-h is a very defining pokemon right now. being able to check kyurem-b, thundurus, mega scizor, and non-stone edge landorus-t in one team slot is something that no other pokemon can claim. its typing and levitate gives it one of the greatest defensive typings in stabmons, and the role compression it provides is crazy. volcanion isn't really annoying for rotom-h, it just means volcanion needs to predict even more. volt switch is a ca$h move and i honestly feel rotom-h is a step above the rest of a rank. it's reached a point where i think "hmm my team needs a thundurus check... rotom-h." proof: http://i.imgur.com/ezjFVVI.png. lol
 
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I don't think Rotom-H deserves A+.

Sure it beats Kyurem-B and Thundurus really nicely, but it can't beat Earth Power variants of the former and this can also happen:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 312-368 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These situations may not be exceedingly common, but its inability to deal with a reasonable and non-gimmicky coverage option of these two Pokemon is pretty detrimental. I guess specially defensive is a set, but that detracts from its physical bulk noticeably. Also it really struggles versus strong special wallbreakers such as Porygon-Z which often force it out. This brings another drawback in Stealth Rock weakness to the spotlight, and its recovery is limited to Pain Split. Honestly I feel that the threats that it beats are balanced out by the many that hit it really hard such as Latios, Keldeo, Porygon-Z, Terrakion, Azu (which can BD or SD to threaten it with Water Shuriken), Mega Diancie, Manaphy, Aerodactyl, Mega Blastoise... and the list goes on. Electric / Fire just has too many exploitable weaknesses I feel

and well
252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 150-177 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-H: 165-195 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

even Sludge Bomb / Wave 2HKOes

So yeah I don't think that Rotom-H is really any better than the Pokemon in A Rank, such as the exceedingly initially threatening Mega Diancie or Mega Charizard X which has virtually zero switch-ins.
 
I think I was the first big proponent of Rotom-H but I agree with Bacon here (puke).

The heat is on for Rotom to check all the threats you listed because in order to do so it must invest in mixed bulk or it must dedicate its investment to one defensive stat, leaving it more vulnerable to the other threats it wants to check. Take for instance the physically defensive set which grills big attackers such as Kyurem-B, Mega Scizor, and Landorus. But what if the opponent also carries Thundurus? Well, if the keen Thundurus player Nasty Plots to apply pressure, Rotom is cooked:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The best it can do back is Thunderbolt for a 2HKO, except I don't know if it carries double Electric. (I'm guessing no.) Otherwise Lava Plume does 43% max, which 2HKOs after LO, assuming the savvy Thundurus player doesn't Oblivion Wing instead (an 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery on its own). Pain Split must be wary of Taunt but is probably safe as the Thundurus player will be spamming damage once it gets its NP up.

Don't get me wrong, Rotom-H is hot and carries a ton of resistances. Besides the 3 S mons and Scizor that unfixable mentioned that Rotom checks there's also Heatran, Magnezone, Talonflame, Zard Y, Serperior (Goggles for the ultimate counter), Klefki, and Ferrothorn, plus any (rare) non-Mold Breaker Excadrill and to a lesser extent Garchomp (needs HP Ice to be immediately threatening) and Zard X (can't hurt it without Pain Split or Nuzzle).

Its downside is actually its main draw: it checks too much, and thus is worn down by a lot if you rely on it for all these top meta threats, especially once Rocks are in play. You should rely on it to cook a small meal, not the entire Thanksgiving feast.

Tl;dr - It's an ace defensively, but not an ace plus because it's overwhelmed by all the things it wants to cover.
 
So rip Kyreum-B and Porygon-Z I guess...
Also this:
I was thinking of nomming Keldeo in S, but I wasn't too sure on others opinions on it. But basically it is an amazing mon that has several good qualities and is a real dominant threat in the current meta. I think my analyses of it covers most of the reasons why it should be considered a top tier :)
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What is the verdict? Also agree with Rotom-H staying in A
 
I wanted to nominate Swellow for D Rank. Swellow works as a surprise mid-late game cleaner, allowing it to come in on status moves, ground moves, and Ghost moves, so it can finish off foes weakened by earlier battles.

Swellow @ Toxic/Flame Orb
12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
Ability Guts

Fake Out/Swords Dance
Extreme Speed
Dragon Ascent
Facade

Fake Out to activate Guts, and use Facade on any non-priority user, otherwise use Exteme Speed. Dragon Ascent works to hit Ghost types and a few slower foes weak to flying like Sceptile before it Mega Evolves.

The reason to use this over Lopunny is the Facade and Flying coverage in regards to the moves base power. In comparison, Lopunny can out speed it by going Jolly, but even at Adamant, a Jolly Swellow still has higher Attack thanks to Guts boosting it. Facade, after the status orb of your choice activates, is even stronger than Lopunny's Hi Jump Kick. And unlike Ursaring, it can rely on its 210 base power move, where as Ursaring relies on Extreme Speed to not be outsped.

Swellow is also immune to other status, Spikes, and Sticky Web which is something Lopunny cannot claim.

The reason I suggest Swellow at all: it combines what Ursaring and Talonflame do: provide powerful priority STAB, and basically doesn't require the Mega slot that M-Lopunny or its special offensive equivalent M-Pidgeot does.

It does have to consider its ever dwindling HP, and weakness to SR, which is why I considered it D-Rank. Hit as much as you can before it goes down, hopefully surprising a few enemies enough with its power to take 1-2 down with it. Also, you can support Swellow with Rapid Spin support.
 
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I honestly don't think it should be ranked at all. Lopunny, while it may not hit as hard, has its main niche in Scrappy + a much better STAB combination. Plus, I don't really find the two comparable at all since Swellow is a Guts user and is on a timer from the moment it comes in, whereas lopunny is a fast attacker/setup sweeper with SD. I mean, if we're talking about guts users Ursaring directly outclasses it despite being slower (since it has priority fakeout/extreme speed to beat faster pokemon). This is because it has a much higher attack stat than swellow, access to close combat to hit steel types (which wall swellow), as well as access to eq.
 
You said it, a timer, which is something Ursaring has as well, and arguably even worse than Swellow because Steel types and Rock types will only take major damage from its Close Combat. Rock and Steel types are still typically faster than Ursaring, such as Lucario, Kabutops, Tyranitar, and some are not even weak to Close Combat such as Jirachi, Metagross, Skarmary, and Aegislash.

Further, most naturally have a high attack stat, meaning Ursaring will likely not get to hit them with Close Combat before taking the fall from their STAB attacks. Even if Ursaring is Jolly, while Tyranitar is Adamant, and thus giving Ursaring the Speed advantage, Tyranitar/M-Tyranitar gains Sucker Punch and can hit it before Close Combat, also add in the damage from Sandstream, and basically can KO it, especially because Ursaring will be affected by Toxic or Burn orb damage already.

So Close Combat is less of a factor. Lopunny also uses up a Mega Slot, and when it comes to Ghosts, Swellow's Dragon Ascent allows it to hit them for 180 base power off of higher Attack, which more than makes up for Lopunny's slightly higher Hi Jump Kick at 195 base power.

Gengar also takes more from a Guts Swellow Dragon Ascent than from a Lopunny's Return, and as a Poison type, we all know it resists Lopunny's stronger Fighting STAB. Plus, can't foes use Protect on Hi Jump Kick to force recoil?

The biggest reason for Swellow over Ursaring, is letting it KO with Facade. Since it is naturally fast it won't have to rely on Extreme Speed to hit hard and first. The lower attack compared to Ursaring is made up by using Facade, which is almost double the base power of Extreme Speed.

Keep in mind with Swellow's typing it can use Swords Dance, or Copy Cat, or even Me First as rock and some steel types are notorious for using Ground or Fighting attacks for coverage, so Swellow switching in on Earthquake Metagross will be in for an Earthquake themselves.
 
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Lopunny has excellent neutral coverage, hitting everything for at least neutral (fuck u shedinja) and hits those steels/rocks that resist normal pretty hard with stab HJK. Ursaring has those immensely strong FakeSpeeds (Adamant Ursaring hits as hard as Jolly itemless -ate M-Ray) and also has Fire Punch/CC for the steels/rocks that resist normal.

Swellow is hardwalled by like every steel/rock type and it only really has one set so it's an easy predict for oppponents.
 
Shuckle: Unranked --> C+ rank. Shuckle can set up both rocks and webs, then heal with Heal order and can provide many other support moves like toxic, infestation, twave, etc.
 
Cucumber God said:
Shuckle: Unranked --> C+ rank. Shuckle can set up both rocks and webs, then heal with Heal order and can provide many other support moves like toxic, infestation, twave, etc.
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why would i use this over say... scolipede? scolipede does this same thing but has offensive presence to boot. shuckle doesn't learn thunder wave either mind you. do you have any replays of this working? it seems so passive and easy to set up on i just couldn't see myself using shuckle on a serious team.

if you're interested in learning more about stabmons, feel free to pm me on showdown or head over to the om room and surely someone one there can help! :)
 
wishes said:
why would i use this over say... scolipede? scolipede does this same thing but has offensive presence to boot. shuckle doesn't learn thunder wave either mind you. do you have any replays of this working? it seems so passive and easy to set up on i just couldn't see myself using shuckle on a serious team.

if you're interested in learning more about stabmons, feel free to pm me on showdown or head over to the om room and surely someone one there can help! :)
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because shuckle has encore, and stealth rocks. and while scoli is better as a HO lead, sticky webs is more "bulky offense" then HO, which means they prefer shucks reliability with bulk and encore over scolis speed and power so it can set the hazards and give the teams switchin opportunities/free setup consistantly through the match. taunt is a thing, but shucks main item is mental herb regardless.
 
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