Metagame STABmons

EV

:3
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Uh some things I want to point out
  • Alakazam-Mega can use Psycho Boost for dealing with things such as Lando and Zygarde better and could probably be slashed over Shadow Ball or CM
  • I dont see the point on having a Z-ToT Mimikyu set. Its stupid weak and its walled by very popular things like pex/lando/ferro/celesteela etc. If anything slash ToT in the SD with Shadow Sneak
  • I suggest removing Stored Power on the Z-ToT Blacephalon set and add dbond instead. I dont think stored power hits anything that dual stab doesnt already, unless im missing something. DBond lets u take out TTar and its quite good paired with things like PZ/Pidgeot/Mega Latias
  • Ive been using Autotomize Celesteela for quite a while and I think Oblivion Wing should be the main flying stab on the special set since its more reliable and gives recovery for annoying things like FakeSpeed.
  • I dont get why theres so much Magearna sets. physical shift gear just seem bad because it loses to a lot of popular mons (landot, pex, ferro, tran steela etc) and id just use autotomize mawile or something instead. Also cm moonlight doesnt seem that good either (loses to most mons that shift gear loses to). special sg should have a mention tho
  • Volcarona is using extrasensory even tho it has psychic
  • Regular gyarados can should use roost on the substitute set, and the attack should be drill peck/liquidation
  • Latios should have a Scarf set, probably over Garchomp. Ive been using it for a while with Psystrike/Core Enforcer/Trick or Defog/Lunar Dance.
  • Tapu Bulu SD set should slash Spore with Play Rough
  • Ursaring doesnt need 2 sets, just make it a single one and slash fake out with SD
  • Mega Latias should have a set, either CM Stored Power or CM 2 attacks roost.
Put this guy on council.
 

wishes

uwu
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  • Alakazam-Mega can use Psycho Boost for dealing with things such as Lando and Zygarde better and could probably be slashed over Shadow Ball or CM
slashed
  • I dont see the point on having a Z-ToT Mimikyu set. Its stupid weak and its walled by very popular things like pex/lando/ferro/celesteela etc. If anything slash ToT in the SD with Shadow Sneak
i think the set is unique simply because you have disguise to guarantee it. i do see where you're coming from, though. i'm going to leave it for now, but if anyone else agrees with removing it just let me know and i'll gladly remove it.
  • I suggest removing Stored Power on the Z-ToT Blacephalon set and add dbond instead. I dont think stored power hits anything that dual stab doesnt already, unless im missing something. DBond lets u take out TTar and its quite good paired with things like PZ/Pidgeot/Mega Latias
stored power ohkoes toxapex before it can haze you and ohkoes venusaur-mega (thick fat means blue flare doesn't) before it can spore you. both of those make it pretty useful in my opinion. slashing dbond is a good idea though, added!
  • Ive been using Autotomize Celesteela for quite a while and I think Oblivion Wing should be the main flying stab on the special set since its more reliable and gives recovery for annoying things like FakeSpeed.
agree
  • I dont get why theres so much Magearna sets. physical shift gear just seem bad because it loses to a lot of popular mons (landot, pex, ferro, tran steela etc) and id just use autotomize mawile or something instead. Also cm moonlight doesnt seem that good either (loses to most mons that shift gear loses to). special sg should have a mention tho
idk i didn't make those lol, i think only otr, special shift gear, and vest sets should be there. i'm making those the only sets.
  • Volcarona is using extrasensory even tho it has psychic
fixed!
  • Regular gyarados can should use roost on the substitute set, and the attack should be drill peck/liquidation
changed to liquidation, disagree w/ drill peck. u have roost and leftovers so brave bird is better imo. like:

+1 164 Atk Gyarados Drill Peck vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 278-330 (76.5 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 164 Atk Gyarados Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 120-142 (34 - 40.3%) -- 41.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (2hko w/ brave bird)
+1 164 Atk Gyarados Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 380-450 (87.9 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 164 Atk Gyarados Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 288-342 (71.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

all of these are guaranteed with brave bird and you can heal back the damage you lose. i'd rather that than be put to sleep and crippled, stopping the sweep you've built up. drill peck should be slashed, but brave bird should come first. dragon ascent is also bad (in case anyone wanted to argue that) imo because the def drops make setting up harder and like brave bird just makes more sense... up for debate i guess.
  • Latios should have a Scarf set, probably over Garchomp. Ive been using it for a while with Psystrike/Core Enforcer/Trick or Defog/Lunar Dance.
agree, not over garchomp tho, both can exist. i like trick/draco/psystrike/[lunar dance/defog/thunder]. core enforce is cool, but the raw power of draco when revenge killing makes it more likable. thunder hits celest which is cool in case it's offense (can't trick z crystals) and is just good coverage in general. added.
  • Tapu Bulu SD set should slash Spore with Play Rough
added!
  • Ursaring doesnt need 2 sets, just make it a single one and slash fake out with SD
if it were my way, we'd remove ursaring period! fixed. (i didn't remove it btw, just merged sets)
  • Mega Latias should have a set, either CM Stored Power or CM 2 attacks roost.
if you give me the set i'll add it, since i don't know the evs specifically and i have never used it myself, but i trust u enough as a player to add it so if you could just gimme that i'll add it (and use it)!

thanks for the helpful suggestions!

  • That Hurricane + Thunder Zapdos set is just bad, even under rain. And anyway, Thundurus-Therian does the job better. Thundurus-Therian also lacks sets.
offensive zapdos is cool in my opinion. i fixed the set to be agilidos though. the niche it has over thundurus is surprise factor but it's definitely worse. i could remove it depending on what ppl think, i like heat wave as coverage to hit steels w/o relying on focus blast too. also haven't used thundurus-t much, so if you could provide a set that would rock! but yeah, i fixed up the hurricane + thunder, don't use that...
  • Those Nidoking sets doesn't seem to have niches, nor look good. The second one doesn't even get anything from STABmons.
not getting anything from stabmons doesn't make them bad by any means, though that set should be removed. coil set should stay, it's nidoking's only niche imo.
  • Bullet Punch could be mentionned on Mawile-Mega, as it gives it a more reliable priority than Sucker Punch. Talking about that, Mawile-Mega's non-SD set doesn't seem really good to me.
agreed! fixed.
  • I don't think the Quiver Dance Araquanid set is needed. Even at +1 it's still slow... Tail Glow + Water Shuriken does the job much better.
i didn't even know this was there... removed. merged with other set.

thank you for the suggestions!

Put this guy on council.
-

thank you all for the helpful suggestions! and thanks drampa's grandpa for helping me keep it more updated (don't capitalize my name though!!!). will update whenever you guys want, it's a community resource i think is valuable enough to continuously updated. if you're suggesting adding a new set, please post the set since i may not know the set off hand. for example, ggggd's latias-mega set. i'm not sure exactly what that runs and don't want to post a bad set.

anyways, it's updated again: http://pokepast.es/bae24b8abac17290
 
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I don't really play/know this meta too much but I want to point out a few things that could be implemented on the sample sets.
1. Link the updated version in the first post lol
2. It sounds logical to slash Roost as an option after Fake Out on the SD Altaria set.
3. Also seems like Heal Order should be an option on TG Araquanid.
4. This is a small change but maybe slash Ghostium Z and T-o-T on Gengar's Purify set? Ghostium Z should have a niche for if you aren't going to use it for the set up.
5. Don't know how sash Gren fairs here at all but I believe it is the most common set set for Protean in OU atm, so this one is more of a question than a request really.
6. Maybe add the Z-Move and/or Taunt options on CM Keldeo
7. With the Spore in this meta I would imagine Safety Goggles should have some slashes such as mons like Celesteela and other grass answers. I have used goggles several times in the past and it has been very useful.
8. Psychic probably should be an option on TG +RD Manaphy.
EDIT: Forgot the most important thing: Add either slashes or another set for Roost + 3 Attacks Zard X
 
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Clefable was a Normal type prior to Generation 6, right? So, theoretically, if you imported a Gen 5 or earlier Clefable into SM, it could theoretically learn at least some new Normal moves in the old games, and then be imported into the new games with those moves intact. Right?
 
Malamar @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpA
Brave Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Power Trip
- Sucker Punch
THE FUN. JUST MADNESS.
 
Malamar @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpA
Brave Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Power Trip
- Sucker Punch
THE FUN. JUST MADNESS.
Agreed. While not the best set in the world, Psycho Boost Malamr is fucking flames, and that's all that matters. I still wanna try Z-Happy Hour with this boy.
 

wishes

uwu
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Malamar is a gimmick at best. It's got a unique niche, but it's simply not good in my opinion. Hoopa-U can do a similar Power Trip set but simply better. Malamar has two advantages in: Psycho Boost, ignoring Landorus-T's Intimidate and profiting from it. But that doesn't really matter when you consider the following:

8 SpA Malamar Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- 41.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 8 SpA Malamar Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 195-229 (51 - 59.9%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 8 SpA Malamar Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 259-306 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile...

+1 8 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 301-355 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Psycho Boost does steamroll, but in what realistic scenario are you afforded the opportunity to use it? Malamar is far too slow, and far too weak. Compared to Hoopa-U, I just feel that it's pointless to run Malamar for Contrary. If you're running Z-Happy Hour (Z-Trick-or-Treat in Hoopa-U's case, which also makes its Power Trip super effective against opponents keep in mind!), then I feel it's simply outclassed. The other set just doesn't seem very good.

I've tried different ways to make Power Trip work, but the best I've been able to is definitely Muk-A, with Coil / Recycle / Power Trip / Poison Jab with Gluttony and an Iapapa Berry. This set takes advantage of Muk-A's naturally high bulk, cool defensive typing, and unique recovery, along with the inability to be Poisoned, to make it a wrecking ball late game. Also doesn't waste a Z-Move either...

So, overall, I just don't feel that Malamar is viable or should be used besides gimmicks and memes.
 
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Well... Malamar can take hits, unlike Hoopa-U and gets Superpower. The problem of speed is solved by Sucker Punch too. Just a Superpower + Sucker Punch can take down a lot. Fyi, Power Trip is better than Stored Power

I have another one now, it can heal for free.
FREE HEALING (Thundurus-Therian) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electrify
- Defog
- Volt Switch
- Oblivion Wing
It can really stall them if they don't have stat raising moves and aren't fast.
 
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wishes

uwu
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Power Trip and Stored Power are the same thing but help hit on both spectrums and are both STABs, one is not better than the other. Sucker Punch isn't always reliable, and in a metagame where Extreme Speed is super common, good luck getting to use it super often. It's pretty weak coming from Malamar as well. Hoopa-U actually has naturally higher special bulk than Malamar as well, not that it matters that much considering Hoopa-U is meant to sweep late game, not take heavy hits. Regardless, Malamar is pretty irrelevant and Hoopa-U isn't common anyways, so it doesn't really matter.

That Thundurus-T set is cool and all, but why would you run it when you could just run Roost? Or Nasty Plot + Oblivion Wing, which heal plenty coming from such a powerful attacker. Thundurus-T is actually pretty sweet in the current metagame for its ability to take on Thundurus-I, a huge threat, and actually do something in return. Take advantage of that in my opinion, since that will get you the best use out of Thundurus-T by far!
 

wishes

uwu
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Betathunder Funbot28 Official Fissure ihhca EV

Hey guys, tagging you all since I was hoping to receive an update from the council as to when Blacephalon will be getting banned / suspected? Numerous people I've talked to have shared similar concerns to myself: that it's simply too powerful, versatile, and unhealthy to be kept in the tier. Sorry if you guys are like debating and whatnot and I'm bugging you guys, but I just was hoping for a transparent response from the council.

Thanks. :)
Hey, with STABmons Open coming up, could this please be addressed? I still believe that Blacephalon is a restriction on teambuilding and is simply too good. Share thoughts.
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
I played this meta a bit and I think there's some things that needs to be suspected.

  • Lopunnite is kinda hard to prepare for in this meta. It's difficult to revenge once it sets up, considering its priority STAB - At best, you could try something like Scarf dactyl, Lucario or Scarf Landorus, but defensive Landorus gets Ice Punched (on the switch) and takes around 50, meaning it has to recover if it wants to come in again. Lopunny-Mega also has access to Encore, a ridiculously potent move that allows it a free setup turn to do whatever you want while burning through the PP of a foe's move such as Shore Up or Defog. I'll admit that once Encore is revealed though, it causes mind games of if the foe is going to switch out or not, but if you manage your risks properly this shouldn't be much of an issue. I wouldn't mind seeing this thing not suspected, though, but a well played Mega Lopunny can really turn the tides in a player's favor easier than a lot of other mons.
  • Blacephalon is stupid. Period. More people should be running Substitute on their Blacephalons, or they should be running Choice Band V-Create since Tyranitar can't take two too well and it's one of the most common switch-ins to Blacephalon. Jolly is basically mandatory on most Tyranitars so you can reliably trap and KO if it V-Creates you on the switch-in. Never mind that this is only one mon needing to use a set that limits what it can do in the game, there are hardly any other reliable answers. Heatran has a shitton of switchins and probably takes 30-40 from Moongeist, while having no recovery. Chansey gets beaten by the aforementioned Choice Band V-Create. Greninja formes revenge it fine but they can't switch in meaning you have to sack something. You can try switching in your Landorus and get beat by Specs/LO Blue Flare. This Pokemon is stupid and should go.
  • Rotom is stupid. I'm unsure what else to say - Access to Spore, recovery, amazing coverage that threatens most Pokemon in the meta and nice bulk drastically change it from the threat that it is in OU. While it's still not on the level as things like Blacephalon, Spore is a dumb move when you consider the coverage it attains from STABmons that threatens Celesteela and other relevant Goggles users. I don't know what other STAB players think about this Pokemon, but I'd like to see at least some discussion on it. It's not that I don't prep for it because I've had teams w/ Chansey and stuff, it's just a dumb Pokemon period when played well. I wish more people would use this Pokemon.
unrelated note, diggersby might actually lowkey be stupid
 

drampa's grandpa

Whatcha doin'?
is a Pre-Contributor
I played this meta a bit and I think there's some things that needs to be suspected.

  • Lopunnite is kinda hard to prepare for in this meta. It's difficult to revenge once it sets up, considering its priority STAB - At best, you could try something like Scarf dactyl, Lucario or Scarf Landorus, but defensive Landorus gets Ice Punched (on the switch) and takes around 50, meaning it has to recover if it wants to come in again. Lopunny-Mega also has access to Encore, a ridiculously potent move that allows it a free setup turn to do whatever you want while burning through the PP of a foe's move such as Shore Up or Defog. I'll admit that once Encore is revealed though, it causes mind games of if the foe is going to switch out or not, but if you manage your risks properly this shouldn't be much of an issue. I wouldn't mind seeing this thing not suspected, though, but a well played Mega Lopunny can really turn the tides in a player's favor easier than a lot of other mons.
  • Blacephalon is stupid. Period. More people should be running Substitute on their Blacephalons, or they should be running Choice Band V-Create since Tyranitar can't take two too well and it's one of the most common switch-ins to Blacephalon. Jolly is basically mandatory on most Tyranitars so you can reliably trap and KO if it V-Creates you on the switch-in. Never mind that this is only one mon needing to use a set that limits what it can do in the game, there are hardly any other reliable answers. Heatran has a shitton of switchins and probably takes 30-40 from Moongeist, while having no recovery. Chansey gets beaten by the aforementioned Choice Band V-Create. Greninja formes revenge it fine but they can't switch in meaning you have to sack something. You can try switching in your Landorus and get beat by Specs/LO Blue Flare. This Pokemon is stupid and should go.
  • Rotom is stupid. I'm unsure what else to say - Access to Spore, recovery, amazing coverage that threatens most Pokemon in the meta and nice bulk drastically change it from the threat that it is in OU. While it's still not on the level as things like Blacephalon, Spore is a dumb move when you consider the coverage it attains from STABmons that threatens Celesteela and other relevant Goggles users. I don't know what other STAB players think about this Pokemon, but I'd like to see at least some discussion on it. It's not that I don't prep for it because I've had teams w/ Chansey and stuff, it's just a dumb Pokemon period when played well. I wish more people would use this Pokemon.
unrelated note, diggersby might actually lowkey be stupid
While Rotom is quite good it has several good defensive counters most notably Mega Venusaur, which doesn't even fear Trick, unlike Chansey. And can take all hits from bulky sets and fears nothing short of 252+ Aeroblast (very uncommon). Spore is imo something that is overall more worth discussion, but lack of truly overpowering abusers makes it imo not banworthy.

Blacephalon is stupid and should be banned. It has a ton of good sets, ~0 reliable switch-ins, is difficult to revenge, and puts a ridiculous amount of offensive pressure on the opp. Should have been banned months ago.

Mega Lop is certainly very good but is checked and forced out by almost all varients of Lando-T, one of the best and most common pokemon in the meta, highly vulnerable to contact status / damage, and a lot of the mons it beats it relies on prediction to do so without crippling itself.
 

GL Volkner

reclaim your crown
is a Tiering Contributor
While Rotom is quite good it has several good defensive counters most notably Mega Venusaur, which doesn't even fear Trick, unlike Chansey. And can take all hits from bulky sets and fears nothing short of 252+ Aeroblast (very uncommon). Spore is imo something that is overall more worth discussion, but lack of truly overpowering abusers makes it imo not banworthy.

Blacephalon is stupid and should be banned. It has a ton of good sets, ~0 reliable switch-ins, is difficult to revenge, and puts a ridiculous amount of offensive pressure on the opp. Should have been banned months ago.

Mega Lop is certainly very good but is checked and forced out by almost all varients of Lando-T, one of the best and most common pokemon in the meta, highly vulnerable to contact status / damage, and a lot of the mons it beats it relies on prediction to do so without crippling itself.
First of all I wanted to thank you for replying to my post, as I thought this would fall on deaf ears and no discussion would be produced.

I feel like a flaw with a lot of discussion that I've seen so far, not just in here but in other OMs, people talk about one Pokemon as a reason to keep something in the tier. However, I feel like the flaw with this logic is that placing the weight of checking one mon that otherwise has no checks on another Pokemon, such as Rotom being checked by Mega Venusaur, is that it restricts the teams you will see at team preview. I wouldn't be opposed to discussing Spore for a suspect or a potential ban, but the notion that one Pokemon checking another is enough to keep said Pokemon in check is kind of ridiculous, in my opinion. Even then, Aeroblast doesn't even sound too bad - If that's Rotom's only reliable check (or "reliable") then there's nothing wrong with luring it. And then... What? It's true that Rotom's checks and counters are unique to each set that is run and that it won't ever be able to beat everything, but the amount of sets that you have to consider when trying to switch into Rotom are just dumb and no player should accurately predict this 8/10 times, forget 10/10 times.

In addition, let's say that Mega Venusaur was a guaranteed check. The consequences of that are:
  • You've taken up your Mega Slot. This means you aren't running Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard Y or other Megas, you can decide which ones you would miss out on running.
  • You've probably locked yourself into balance or stall. Mega Venusaur is just too much of a momentum drain for offensive teams for it to belong on there, so already you're deciding your playstyle just so you can check a Pokemon that can easily lure in one of its checks with no opportunity cost.
  • You're draining momentum from yourself. I can't mention how important this is but by God it's so easy to use a few double switches in this metagame and trap whatever you want using your checks. You can send in your Rotom and double to something that threatens Venusaur - Let's say Slowbro. From there, teams will either hard Celesteela or Chansey which can easily be taken advantage of, with Magnezone being a very good threat in STABmons and Chansey being easily taken advantage of by I don't even know how many Pokemon in this tier don't mind it coming in.
  • You've traded ALL of this for something that has no opportunity cost when you run it. This is by and large the most important argument I feel. You're trading your Mega slot in exchange for the ability to conditionally check a Pokemon provided a player hasn't considered the fact that its two reliable answers can be beaten by a Trick Specs set with Flying coverage. You've locked yourself into balance or stall because Mega Venusaur sucks momentum from offense harder than Chloe sucks at not losing to Palkia. You still need to check Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard Y, Blacephalon, Thundurus, Diggersby... All in the rest of your team. And yeah, that's fine. It's not that difficult to check the top couple of sets for each Pokemon. But when you consider these threats plus Rotom, all teams either look like double bunny balance or full on stall with a mix of other, less successful team archetypes in there. The thing is that it starts to get bland and matchups start to look the same and in a metagame where team preview looks more or less the same every couple of games, it's much more likely for a bad player to beat a good player simply because they've seen the matchup before and know their plays.
Don't get me wrong, STABmons is fun. I love STABmons and it's amazing! But honestly what do you have to not lose by running Rotom? In addition, Mega Lopunny and Diggersby are insane right now - They have their checks (actually lol @ the concept of Diggers checks at all since Celesteela dies to +2 Fire Punch haha fun...) but their "checks" are dunked by common coverage moves like Ice Punch or nice status moves like Encore and force an unreasonable amount of prediction from a player even for something so one dimensional. The concept that Landorus-Therian should be mandatory on every team so you don't lose to Lopunny is also ridiculous - If a Pokemon is warping the metagame that much, it's unhealthy. And right now in my honest opinion, the metagame looks like a Rock Paper Scissors between Mega Lopunny Diggersby balance, Mega Lopunny Diggersby balance cts, and teams that have good matchup against those teams.

I'm not bashing on STABmons but this metagame's state is in my eyes unreasonable - You're basically mandating the use of Landorus-Therian in order to have a chance against the metagame but a healthy metagame is one where diversity is possible and the entire weight of the tier is not on one Pokemon. I'm not saying Landorus-Therian is broken either, I just think the metagame is broken around it if it mandates the use of a Pokemon. I'd really like to see what a metagame without Landorus-Therian looks like not because I think it needs a ban but I want to see just how rampant things are without it, and then maybe we can take a look at those threats and enjoy a much healthier metagame.
 

EV

:3
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Super Moderator


Yo.

As most of you know, I left STABmons in the hands of the council a while back for a few reasons (none of which are important for you to know). Since then I haven't touched a game of USUM, but it's been pretty obvious for a long time that the metagame has a lot of problems that aren't being addressed properly. I've been hesitant to do anything - again, haven't been playing. However, with the Open now started, and the format growing dangerously unplayable, I've been asked nicely to step in and clean up shop.

I've been in contact with base lord Betathunder . We will be reforming leadership together as co-leaders. A new council will come . . . eventually.

"But, EV, you beautiful fool," you cry from the back row, "you just admitted that you haven't been playing!"

True, and I really don't plan to start again, so consider my role here as solely administrative to help keep the ball rolling, so to speak. Think those old On the Radar posts. That said, some things are just easy to spot, and I've been practically shouting since USUM that Blacephalon was going to be broken.

Now, as for our first order of business:

Blacephalon is banned. Regarding the Open, it's my understanding that the ban takes place for Round 2. Betanubber and I will discuss some other things. Notably, I've begun to see the argument for a Mega Lop and PZ suspect. Remember, STABmons suspects are different. We open it to community feedback for a period of time and then hold a council vote. We'll iron out the details later when we get there.

Tagging The Immortal so he knows it's done.

Byeee!
 

drampa's grandpa

Whatcha doin'?
is a Pre-Contributor


Yo.

As most of you know, I left STABmons in the hands of the council a while back for a few reasons (none of which are important for you to know). Since then I haven't touched a game of USUM, but it's been pretty obvious for a long time that the metagame has a lot of problems that aren't being addressed properly. I've been hesitant to do anything - again, haven't been playing. However, with the Open now started, and the format growing dangerously unplayable, I've been asked nicely to step in and clean up shop.

I've been in contact with base lord Betathunder . We will be reforming leadership together as co-leaders. A new council will come . . . eventually.

"But, EV, you beautiful fool," you cry from the back row, "you just admitted that you haven't been playing!"

True, and I really don't plan to start again, so consider my role here as solely administrative to help keep the ball rolling, so to speak. Think those old On the Radar posts. That said, some things are just easy to spot, and I've been practically shouting since USUM that Blacephalon was going to be broken.

Now, as for our first order of business:

Blacephalon is banned. Regarding the Open, it's my understanding that the ban takes place for Round 2. Betanubber and I will discuss some other things. Notably, I've begun to see the argument for a Mega Lop and PZ suspect. Remember, STABmons suspects are different. We open it to community feedback for a period of time and then hold a council vote. We'll iron out the details later when we get there.

Tagging The Immortal so he knows it's done.

Byeee!
Finally
Glad to see some activity from the council :)

If we're going to be seriously discussing Lopunny-Mega and PZ as suspect candidates I might as well throw in my 2 cents.


Lop:
Lopunny is certainly a top tier Pokemon, distinguished by access to Scrappy + a nearly unapproachable speed tier (there are three pokemon that outspeed it that are both viable and legal, Mega Sceptile, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Beedrill, and none are really exactly A tier threats). I get where the arguments for it being broken come from; besides access to SD + Scrappy Espeed its checks have to be able to deal with its coverage. While this is also true for stuff like Ursaring and hell basically every normal type, Lopunny is able to use its insane speed tier to smack things twice as they try to switch in, which eases prediction considerably and turns many would-be counters into checks and checks into dead meat.

Where I feel Lop falls short is on raw power and bulk and its reliance on contact moves; its stats besides speed aren't that impressive especially when you consider it's itemless. Many Some offensive pokemon live +2 Espeed and can KO back. It frequently gets burned by Beak Blast before it can sweep, and while it may take down a mon in the process it is not nearly as difficult to revenge a burned Lopunny. It has to choose between Ice Punch, Encore, and ig Fake Out in its last slot, and giving up either of the first two cuts down on its potency considerably.

I think Mega Lop is a good candidate for a suspect and I look forward to reading other people's arguments on it. I could be swayed either way.


PZ: I'm a little confused as to why this would be the next suspect of all things. Sure it has some semblance of versatility and an insane power level, but if it's choiced it plays a very dangerous game with ghost types preventing it from spamming its primary STAB option easily, and Chansey can switch in all over it once it's locked into a move (gotta not get Tricked). I've never found Z-Conversion or other setup particularly overwhelming compared to the other threats in the meta and Judgment sets are imo kinda mediocre. It's good but... Awkward speed tier, low bulk, poor offensive typing (I'm ignoring move access here; obviously normal is the greatest if you include that) that prevents it from living up to its potential.

I don't really see why a suspect is necessary for PZ, but again, I'd be happy to see other people's arguments.

Finally, here's a set I just started using that I wish I had been using the entire time Blacephalon was legal... but eh wishes is fishes.

Greninja @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crabhammer / Liquidation
- Sucker Punch / Knock Off
- Pursuit
- U-turn

This thing is a decent Pursuit trapper that really, really wishes it could run five moves. Pursuit allows it to proc its Losingeverysinglepokemonleague forme (Ash forme if it wasn't clear) against Pokemon it forces out, U-Turn maintains momentum, Crabhammer allows it to do some real damage, Sucker Punch allows it to outpace other priority or scarfers and net some kills, and Knock Off screws with stuff like Chansey as well as providing it with a decently powered second stab.

Life Orb v Choice Band is up to your preference, although I know many people won't want to run Band with Sucker Punch, but it's not that bad. I personally ran band for the stronger pursuits but I think Life Orb might be overall the better option, and could also enable you to go mixed if you wish, although I'm not sure what you'd replace.
 
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I honestly think PZ needs to go first. It 100% forces you to have an answer to it in the form of 4x resists, immunities, or chansey.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 184-217 (46.2 - 54.5%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 183-216 (47.5 - 56.1%)

This isn't normal, it 2hkos these after rocks. And then there's plenty of Ttar lures around to catch them too. Of course it can trick chanseys and neuter it completely too. And how many good ghost types are there? Mimikyu which there's plenty of lando-t with beak blasts going around, gengar, which is decent, but nothing world beating, and then what? ghost types barely punish you if the prediction is made. This mon is without doubt broken and puts a vice-grip on team building
 
ok mlop and pz are mons that can be very annoying in the meta though they do have checks and counter , especially in terms of mlop (though the lack of counters for this imo further warrants reason for them being banned). However as volkner brought up further up can we seriously talk about how stupid diggersby is and how difficult it is to wall?

Seriously this rabbit is already a threat with its access to fire punch for steel/ and flying types that try to tank it (and heck some it can still overpower off its stab espeeds). It has its atk boosted by huge power to a large 422 atk stat (sitting between 140-145 base) with a jolly nature and on adamant with 463 atk (going one point over a base 160 atk stat) and can still boost further with items of its blessing in stabmons of sd. Not only this but this mon has been blessed in stabmons with a stab +2 priority with 80 bp that more then helps make up for its base 78 speed tier allowing it to nuke most things after one sd with its sky high atk that aren't resisted or immune. May I also mention the sheer lack of priority counterplay for espeed in general due to the banning of the best prio stopper that came this gen in tapu lele (I'm not asking for its unban though), the other mons with prio stopping abilities being severly mediocre in this meta, the sheer fact that two of the best ghost types that acutally outsped it were banned (silvally ghost and blacephalon) and also the fact that the other leftover ghosts in the meta are either not very good in the meta save for that specific niche of dealing with digs. I wont even mention steel types or rock types as they are either dealt digs ground stab or its usable fire punch. The vary ghosts that exist in the tier as is cant just swap into digs freely either as they can risk death from digs stabs with gengar no longer having levitate this gen and mimi actually dying to bonemerang from digs after it breaking the disguise if its at +2 with high chance without rocks and it being a surety with em.

+2 252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 462-546 (184 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now one may think that some of this can be avoided somewhat with the use of kings shield from last gen and the gift to the annoyance of many physical attackers this gen in beak blast. However something else was also released this gen that I feel pushes it over the edge. PROTECTIVE PADS


Fact of the matter is this is that this item basically further nullifies anyway to really counter diggersby anymore, at this point ur left at the mercy of its +2 espeed even if u may try to burn it, chip it with rocky helmet or try and drop its atk with kings shield , the thing can hit on with only being concerned of the dmg it may take from the aforementioned beak blast if the threat it hits lives.

Tbh its at the point that I think I'm even seeing heatran (though I feel its also potentially used as a boomburst check as well) run with air balloon to try and deal with digs but what does heatran do once its air balloon pops except die to its ground stab??

seriously I would like to hear how oterh people check or deal with this monster because I seriously feel its the worst of the 3 normal types in this meta now
 
I dont get why when i brought up diggersby it was considered ridiculous to even SUGGEST its broken but now its a actual argument and discussion, im salty

Anyways so this isnt a one liner heres my two cents on the trio of normals.
For lopunny even if its the weakest of the three, i still say lopunny is too strong for its speed (with a dumb ability) and the fact that it forces u to use a landorus or steela to check it (even if theyre good or w/e its still not an excuse to be forced to put them on every team) and putting HUGE pressure on offense by outspeeding the whole metagame

Same goes for diggersby but differently, its really good vs less ho teams. like whitephoenix above me said not even celesteela or lando are safe as it sds safely and proceed to wreck chaos when theyre slightly weakened (yea hurr durr steels that outspeed it revenge easily, but by then it wouldve already done its job by killing a mon on ur team)

Porygon z is the weirdest of the three, its a glass cannon whos not really that fast, no priority and ok typing but the hardest hitting special attacker in stabmons, im not sure abt it tho as it can be checked with webs/priority and ANY decently fast mon if specs (unlike lopunny and diggersby where u cant revenge cause of priority so u have to pack a faster steel)
So im not really sure how i feel abt it (i have not faced porygon enough i feel to make a statement abt it)
 

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sorry if this post came out a mess i sorta worked on it in bits and pieces
ok mlop and pz are mons that can be very annoying in the meta though they do have checks and counter , especially in terms of mlop (though the lack of counters for this imo further warrants reason for them being banned). However as volkner brought up further up can we seriously talk about how stupid diggersby is and how difficult it is to wall?

Seriously this rabbit is already a threat with its access to fire punch for steel/ and flying types that try to tank it (and heck some it can still overpower off its stab espeeds). It has its atk boosted by huge power to a large 422 atk stat (sitting between 140-145 base) with a jolly nature and on adamant with 463 atk (going one point over a base 160 atk stat) and can still boost further with items of its blessing in stabmons of sd.
Diggersby has never had any counters. Not in this, not in standard. The closest you get is Buzzwole and
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 315-372 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also lol Bounce. Nothing really walls Diggersby. Yet somehow its not broken and the suggestion that it is would be laughed at in OU.
Of course this isn't OU, and here Diggersby gets Espeed.
Not only this but this mon has been blessed in stabmons with a stab +2 priority with 80 bp that more then helps make up for its base 78 speed tier allowing it to nuke most things after one sd with its sky high atk that aren't resisted or immune. May I also mention the sheer lack of priority counterplay for espeed in general due to the banning of the best prio stopper that came this gen in tapu lele (I'm not asking for its unban though), the other mons with prio stopping abilities being severly mediocre in this meta, the sheer fact that two of the best ghost types that acutally outsped it were banned (silvally ghost and blacephalon) and also the fact that the other leftover ghosts in the meta are either not very good in the meta save for that specific niche of dealing with digs.
There are several ghosts that are decent in the meta, and it's not just because of Diggersby. Mimikyu is by far the best but Marowak, Sableye, and Gengar are all also good. Also there are other espeeders lmao, Diggersby isn't even the strongest.

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Gumshoos Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 221-263 (64.8 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Teddiursa Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I wont even mention steel types or rock types as they are either dealt digs ground stab or its usable fire punch. The vary ghosts that exist in the tier as is cant just swap into digs freely either as they can risk death from digs stabs with gengar no longer having levitate this gen and mimi actually dying to bonemerang from digs after it breaking the disguise if its at +2 with high chance without rocks and it being a surety with em.
You really should mention them because offensive resists are what mostly check Diggersby and Lopunny. Things that can take an Espeed, outspeed, and KO. Aerodactyl, Terrakion, Mega Tyranitar, Durant, Barbaracle, Metagross, etc. can all check Diggersby. I've used all of those (except maybe Mega TTar idr that one I usually use regular but that's outsped rip) and they've all performed decently as offensive Espeed checks.
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 462-546 (184 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now one may think that some of this can be avoided somewhat with the use of kings shield from last gen and the gift to the annoyance of many physical attackers this gen in beak blast. However something else was also released this gen that I feel pushes it over the edge. PROTECTIVE PADS


Fact of the matter is this is that this item basically further nullifies anyway to really counter diggersby anymore, at this point ur left at the mercy of its +2 espeed even if u may try to burn it, chip it with rocky helmet or try and drop its atk with kings shield , the thing can hit on with only being concerned of the dmg it may take from the aforementioned beak blast if the threat it hits lives.

Tbh its at the point that I think I'm even seeing heatran (though I feel its also potentially used as a boomburst check as well) run with air balloon to try and deal with digs but what does heatran do once its air balloon pops except die to its ground stab??

seriously I would like to hear how oterh people check or deal with this monster because I seriously feel its the worst of the 3 normal types in this meta now
First, Air Balloon Heatran has been a thing since Air Balloon came out. It's not a sign of an unhealthy meta in any way.
Second, Diggersby has a really hard time setting up v offensive teams, which are the teams which it matches up better against in this meta (it already cheeses stall p hard in standard). I tend to play against it by not giving it setup opportunities without punishing them. You should never be facing a 100% health +2 Diggersby unless you know you can afford to sack things.

I dont get why when i brought up diggersby it was considered ridiculous to even SUGGEST its broken but now its a actual argument and discussion, im salty

Anyways so this isnt a one liner heres my two cents on the trio of normals.
For lopunny even if its the weakest of the three, i still say lopunny is too strong for its speed (with a dumb ability) and the fact that it forces u to use a landorus or steela to check it (even if theyre good or w/e its still not an excuse to be forced to put them on every team) and putting HUGE pressure on offense by outspeeding the whole metagame
Lopunny is checkable in other ways, Scarf Terrakion for instance, Band Bewear after some chip, and essentially Normal resists / physically bulky pokemon that are capable of pushing past Lopunny's speed tier.
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (second is if it takes rocks pre-mega)

Then there's Buzzwole, sortofnotreally Hippowdon (has to phaze and if it can't recover on what comes in ur kinda screwed also last mon sweeps are a thing), Alomomola barely... lol i took off the fighting type and forgot to add it back on ignore that
I do agree however that its speed tier is the broken part of it, if anything. Even things like Aerodactyl, which can be made to check Diggersby* fail because it's just so damn fast. That's also what makes Encore such a deadly move on it: it works not just against walls but against many offensive mons as well.

*+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Aerodactyl: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same goes for diggersby but differently, its really good vs less ho teams. like whitephoenix above me said not even celesteela or lando are safe as it sds safely and proceed to wreck chaos when theyre slightly weakened (yea hurr durr steels that outspeed it revenge easily, but by then it wouldve already done its job by killing a mon on ur team)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 253-300 (66.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 184-217 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Landorus-therian is a reliable check to non-ice punch Diggersby. Check note: not counter. You get in safely (not on SD or Espeed, which means probably as a revenge unless you can predict a ground move) and you 2hko it while nothing they do can kill. Again, unless they're running Ice Punch in which case pdef Steela will either beat it or leave it in range of any other priority.

NOTE @ BELOW: I assumed 0 hp Diggers... because I can't find the stats that would tell me what people usually run.
OVERALL CONCLUSION: I just wasted a ton of time didn't I?
Steela will either beat Diggersby or leave it low on health reliably... unless it has Fire Punch. HOWEVER Diggersby HAS to SD as Steela switches in or it loses in all of these scenarios. But since Fire Punch is, to my knowledge, the most common Diggersby coverage move, I don't think these calcs are very relevant. Enjoy if you wish.
CONCLUSION: It's a roll (in a well-played Diggersby's favor)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-229 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 114-135 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Diggersby either Swords Dances as it switches in or is totally screwed.
Steela can recover 21.4 - 25.4% HP from OWing, so when Diggersby is at +2 it misses the 3hko with leftovers recovery, dealing ~17.05 - 29.85 damage per turn after everything while Celesteela will always 3hko.

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 290-342 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby Swords Dances twice instead of once it easily 2hko's, takes 20% from Life Orb damage and has taken two Oblivion Wings for 73.2-86.8 damage, meaning that Diggersby has a 50% chance of dying to Life Orb recoil.

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 387-456 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby SDs three times it has an 81.3% chance of surviving and killing Celesteela. It will take 73.2-86.8% damage from Oblivion Wing and 10% from Life Orb leaving it with 16.8-3.2% health. It has an 18.7% chance of dying and leaving Steela with very low health

Of course Steela could also use King's Shield on the predicted Ice Punch, but that relies on prediction.

CONCLUSION: Steela wins unless hax

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 149-176 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 114-135 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Steela can recover 21.4 - 25.4% HP from OWing, so when Diggersby is at +2 it misses the 3hko with leftovers recovery, dealing 5.75-16.55% per turn and getting 3hko'd in turn.

At this level of damage Steela can Roost off the damage, but must be wary of giving Diggersby turns to set up.

+4 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 223-263 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby SD's twice it 3hkos (tiny chance to 2hko with 2 high rolls) Celesteela after OWing and Lefties, dealing 24.35 - 38.35% per turn. Celesteela wins this by Owing-ing the turn they set up and 3hkoing in total, unless hax happens and it gets 2hko'd (seriously a crit is probably more likely but I cba to calc it)

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 298-351 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 298-351 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Given that this isn't a OHKO under any circumstances and Diggersby wastes two turns in front of Steela setting up Celesteela wins with a 3HKO by Oblivion Wing.

0 Atk Celesteela Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 135-159 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-229 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power burned Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-227 (48.7 - 57%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby Swords Dances once before it attacks and gets burnt it cannot break Celesteela, which simply has to Roost and wait for passive damage to add up.

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 290-342 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby sets up to +4 before attacking it deals a good amount of damage then dies to the combination of LO recoil, Beak Blast damage, and burn.

If Diggersby sets up to +6 before attacking and survives (a pretty safe bet tbh)
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 387-456 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

It has an 81.3% chance to kill Celesteela and a 100% chance to die from LO recoil that turn.

CONCLUSION: A well-played Diggersby wins
0 Atk Celesteela Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 135-159 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 149-176 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steela can Roost this off.

+4 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 223-263 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Diggers sets up to +4 it wins unless Celesteela 2hkos.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 298-351 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Diggersby sets up to +6 Steela wins with a reliable 3hko while Diggers can't OHKO in return.

Porygon z is the weirdest of the three, its a glass cannon whos not really that fast, no priority and ok typing but the hardest hitting special attacker in stabmons, im not sure abt it tho as it can be checked with webs/priority and ANY decently fast mon if specs (unlike lopunny and diggersby where u cant revenge cause of priority so u have to pack a faster steel)
So im not really sure how i feel abt it (i have not faced porygon enough i feel to make a statement abt it)
Porygon-Z actually does run priority some of the time. The set looks something like this.
Porygon-Z @ Fist Plate / Spooky Plate / Dread Plate / Silk Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Judgment / Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball

That is, imo, far from being the potentially broken set. The only sets worthy of discussion in that regards are specs and possibly scarf. Specs on webs is frighteningly powerful, and I've started using it while trying to make up my mind about these mons. It is still very priority weak and also weak to faster mons (non-grounded ones on webs, and no there isn't anything legal that outspeeds Timid PZ after webs without some sort of boost... unless you count Ninjask in gravity ig???).

FINAL TWO THINGS

1) I don't think banning a bunch of normals is a very good idea right now until the meta has a little more time to settle. I've been seeing a number of people saying that ghosts basically don't exist in this metagame but I would like to point out that Blacephalon was just banned, which not only outclassed and / or gave major competition to the majority of the ghost types, it also murdered them. I think as the meta settles a little from that ban we might see some more ghosties come back to haunt us. Obviously this won't impact Lopunny very much, although Mimikyu is a good Lopunny check with disguise intact.

2) STABmons is, by nature, a very offensive metagame. There are things that lack switchins, and these things are not necessarily broken. Offensive checks are much more relevant to the metagame imo, and are why I feel that PZ, while deadly under the right circumstances and nearly impossible to switch into, is not necessarily broken. This also applies heavily to Diggersby.

3) I CAN COUNT a couple nominations for viability rankings
B -> B+
Bewear is a very nice espeeder, bringing bulk as its niche over others. To put its bulk into some perspective
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Fluffy Bewear: 302-356 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and Band Bewear OHKOs in return.
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Aerodactyl: 364-430 (120.9 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In a contact heavy metagame like STAB Bewear has a lot of opportunities to tank hits, which can let it either set up with SD or deal heavy damage. Bewear also just just a major offensive check in Blacephalon, which was immune to both STABs, had a pseudo-SE STAB, and resisted Ice Punch, and was just overall bad news for Bewear. But now it's gone!

UR -> B-/B
Accelgor is THE lead for Sticky Webs HO. While Ninjask is also worth considering as they both give Final Gambit/Spikes/Sticky Web, but Accelgor gives Encore, which allows it to provide momentum, set up more spikes, or prevent Defog. This is not a complicated Pokemon. I've seen Tail Glow sets, and they're bad. It pairs well with anything that appreciates webs support, like Mega Medicham, Porygon-Z, Diggersby, and Mega Charizard Y, etc. insert wallbreaker here.
 
sorry if this post came out a mess i sorta worked on it in bits and pieces

Diggersby has never had any counters. Not in this, not in standard. The closest you get is Buzzwole and
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 315-372 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also lol Bounce. Nothing really walls Diggersby. Yet somehow its not broken and the suggestion that it is would be laughed at in OU.
Of course this isn't OU, and here Diggersby gets Espeed.

There are several ghosts that are decent in the meta, and it's not just because of Diggersby. Mimikyu is by far the best but Marowak, Sableye, and Gengar are all also good. Also there are other espeeders lmao, Diggersby isn't even the strongest.

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Gumshoos Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 221-263 (64.8 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Teddiursa Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


You really should mention them because offensive resists are what mostly check Diggersby and Lopunny. Things that can take an Espeed, outspeed, and KO. Aerodactyl, Terrakion, Mega Tyranitar, Durant, Barbaracle, Metagross, etc. can all check Diggersby. I've used all of those (except maybe Mega TTar idr that one I usually use regular but that's outsped rip) and they've all performed decently as offensive Espeed checks.

First, Air Balloon Heatran has been a thing since Air Balloon came out. It's not a sign of an unhealthy meta in any way.
Second, Diggersby has a really hard time setting up v offensive teams, which are the teams which it matches up better against in this meta (it already cheeses stall p hard in standard). I tend to play against it by not giving it setup opportunities without punishing them. You should never be facing a 100% health +2 Diggersby unless you know you can afford to sack things.


Lopunny is checkable in other ways, Scarf Terrakion for instance, Band Bewear after some chip, and essentially Normal resists / physically bulky pokemon that are capable of pushing past Lopunny's speed tier.
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (second is if it takes rocks pre-mega)

Then there's Buzzwole, sortofnotreally Hippowdon (has to phaze and if it can't recover on what comes in ur kinda screwed also last mon sweeps are a thing), Alomomola barely... lol i took off the fighting type and forgot to add it back on ignore that
I do agree however that its speed tier is the broken part of it, if anything. Even things like Aerodactyl, which can be made to check Diggersby* fail because it's just so damn fast. That's also what makes Encore such a deadly move on it: it works not just against walls but against many offensive mons as well.

*+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Aerodactyl: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 253-300 (66.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 184-217 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Landorus-therian is a reliable check to non-ice punch Diggersby. Check note: not counter. You get in safely (not on SD or Espeed, which means probably as a revenge unless you can predict a ground move) and you 2hko it while nothing they do can kill. Again, unless they're running Ice Punch in which case pdef Steela will either beat it or leave it in range of any other priority.

NOTE @ BELOW: I assumed 0 hp Diggers... because I can't find the stats that would tell me what people usually run.
OVERALL CONCLUSION: I just wasted a ton of time didn't I?
Steela will either beat Diggersby or leave it low on health reliably... unless it has Fire Punch. HOWEVER Diggersby HAS to SD as Steela switches in or it loses in all of these scenarios. But since Fire Punch is, to my knowledge, the most common Diggersby coverage move, I don't think these calcs are very relevant. Enjoy if you wish.
CONCLUSION: It's a roll (in a well-played Diggersby's favor)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-229 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 114-135 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Diggersby either Swords Dances as it switches in or is totally screwed.
Steela can recover 21.4 - 25.4% HP from OWing, so when Diggersby is at +2 it misses the 3hko with leftovers recovery, dealing ~17.05 - 29.85 damage per turn after everything while Celesteela will always 3hko.

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 290-342 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby Swords Dances twice instead of once it easily 2hko's, takes 20% from Life Orb damage and has taken two Oblivion Wings for 73.2-86.8 damage, meaning that Diggersby has a 50% chance of dying to Life Orb recoil.

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 387-456 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby SDs three times it has an 81.3% chance of surviving and killing Celesteela. It will take 73.2-86.8% damage from Oblivion Wing and 10% from Life Orb leaving it with 16.8-3.2% health. It has an 18.7% chance of dying and leaving Steela with very low health

Of course Steela could also use King's Shield on the predicted Ice Punch, but that relies on prediction.

CONCLUSION: Steela wins unless hax

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 149-176 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 114-135 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Steela can recover 21.4 - 25.4% HP from OWing, so when Diggersby is at +2 it misses the 3hko with leftovers recovery, dealing 5.75-16.55% per turn and getting 3hko'd in turn.

At this level of damage Steela can Roost off the damage, but must be wary of giving Diggersby turns to set up.

+4 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 223-263 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby SD's twice it 3hkos (tiny chance to 2hko with 2 high rolls) Celesteela after OWing and Lefties, dealing 24.35 - 38.35% per turn. Celesteela wins this by Owing-ing the turn they set up and 3hkoing in total, unless hax happens and it gets 2hko'd (seriously a crit is probably more likely but I cba to calc it)

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 298-351 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 298-351 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Given that this isn't a OHKO under any circumstances and Diggersby wastes two turns in front of Steela setting up Celesteela wins with a 3HKO by Oblivion Wing.

0 Atk Celesteela Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 135-159 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-229 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power burned Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 194-227 (48.7 - 57%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby Swords Dances once before it attacks and gets burnt it cannot break Celesteela, which simply has to Roost and wait for passive damage to add up.

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 290-342 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If Diggersby sets up to +4 before attacking it deals a good amount of damage then dies to the combination of LO recoil, Beak Blast damage, and burn.

If Diggersby sets up to +6 before attacking and survives (a pretty safe bet tbh)
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 387-456 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

It has an 81.3% chance to kill Celesteela and a 100% chance to die from LO recoil that turn.

CONCLUSION: A well-played Diggersby wins
0 Atk Celesteela Beak Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 135-159 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 149-176 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steela can Roost this off.

+4 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 223-263 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Diggers sets up to +4 it wins unless Celesteela 2hkos.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 298-351 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Diggersby sets up to +6 Steela wins with a reliable 3hko while Diggers can't OHKO in return.


Porygon-Z actually does run priority some of the time. The set looks something like this.
Porygon-Z @ Fist Plate / Spooky Plate / Dread Plate / Silk Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Judgment / Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball

That is, imo, far from being the potentially broken set. The only sets worthy of discussion in that regards are specs and possibly scarf. Specs on webs is frighteningly powerful, and I've started using it while trying to make up my mind about these mons. It is still very priority weak and also weak to faster mons (non-grounded ones on webs, and no there isn't anything legal that outspeeds Timid PZ after webs without some sort of boost... unless you count Ninjask in gravity ig???).

FINAL TWO THINGS

1) I don't think banning a bunch of normals is a very good idea right now until the meta has a little more time to settle. I've been seeing a number of people saying that ghosts basically don't exist in this metagame but I would like to point out that Blacephalon was just banned, which not only outclassed and / or gave major competition to the majority of the ghost types, it also murdered them. I think as the meta settles a little from that ban we might see some more ghosties come back to haunt us. Obviously this won't impact Lopunny very much, although Mimikyu is a good Lopunny check with disguise intact.

2) STABmons is, by nature, a very offensive metagame. There are things that lack switchins, and these things are not necessarily broken. Offensive checks are much more relevant to the metagame imo, and are why I feel that PZ, while deadly under the right circumstances and nearly impossible to switch into, is not necessarily broken. This also applies heavily to Diggersby.

3) I CAN COUNT a couple nominations for viability rankings
B -> B+
Bewear is a very nice espeeder, bringing bulk as its niche over others. To put its bulk into some perspective
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Fluffy Bewear: 302-356 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and Band Bewear OHKOs in return.
252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Aerodactyl: 364-430 (120.9 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In a contact heavy metagame like STAB Bewear has a lot of opportunities to tank hits, which can let it either set up with SD or deal heavy damage. Bewear also just just a major offensive check in Blacephalon, which was immune to both STABs, had a pseudo-SE STAB, and resisted Ice Punch, and was just overall bad news for Bewear. But now it's gone!

UR -> B-/B
Accelgor is THE lead for Sticky Webs HO. While Ninjask is also worth considering as they both give Final Gambit/Spikes/Sticky Web, but Accelgor gives Encore, which allows it to provide momentum, set up more spikes, or prevent Defog. This is not a complicated Pokemon. I've seen Tail Glow sets, and they're bad. It pairs well with anything that appreciates webs support, like Mega Medicham, Porygon-Z, Diggersby, and Mega Charizard Y, etc. insert wallbreaker here.
Just a small thing I feel you should point out for your Accelgor nom is that it also gets Toxic Spikes as of USUM, giving it another niche over Ninjask.
 
For Grass types it serves as a more reliable healing option than Synthesis as it's not affected by rain or sand. The attack drop can also let the user beat physical attackers.
 
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