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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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My main point is that you can take their defense raising boosts in order to better take their stored powers or whatever later. And it is quite likely your offenses will have been boosted too, seeing as baton pass teams sort of need to do that as well.
I too like using ditto to mess with BP teams, if you bust a sub then you can get ditto in, copy the boosts, and pass to your own thing. Stall plus ditto is a current mini project of mine.
I only have these two replays with Aerodactyl. In the first one he takes a pinsir Return pretty harshly because he hasn't mega'd yet, but he later does his job and pulls off something crucial in the end. In the second replay I played pretty badly and underestimated the strength of CB tyranitar, and Aerodactly finally ended up falling to Latios instead of killing Charizard like he's supposed to. It starts to look pretty bad in the end, but...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102244671
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102545936
I'll try to gather a few replays of aero tanking pinsir, char, and talonflame
Edit: I want to see more replays of hyper offense with the like of charizard, thundurus, latios, etc
I only have these two replays with Aerodactyl. In the first one he takes a pinsir Return pretty harshly because he hasn't mega'd yet, but he later does his job and pulls off something crucial in the end. In the second replay I played pretty badly and underestimated the strength of CB tyranitar, and Aerodactly finally ended up falling to Latios instead of killing Charizard like he's supposed to. It starts to look pretty bad in the end, but...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102244671
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102545936
I'll try to gather a few replays of aero tanking pinsir, char, and talonflame
Edit: I want to see more replays of hyper offense with the like of charizard, thundurus, latios, etc
What are the different threats Gyarados and Mega Blastoise can clean up? They seem to fill similar roles in terms of being your water stall piece with access to a non-standard phaze.
I find the bulkiness of Gyarados is highly underestimated (and opponents almost always read it as a Dragon Dancer) because of Intimidate...which also gives it some nice space as a pivot if you want since Intimidate forces your opponent to move in order to clean up (I've kind of jokingly called the hits you get on an Espeon type Pokemon with Dragon Tailthe most satisfying 30-50% damage I deal). On the other hand, MegaDos is a great damage dealer and that 20% Confusion, much like Waterfall's 20% Flinch, is much higher as you get pot shots in with them (~50% odds if you're getting 3 through at various points in the game)...but with Water Pulse you don't need to go first to make it happen.
Curious about your read on a purely physical defensive Sylveon (Bold, but same EVs as the Sylveon you described above) as well. I use one right now since it basically tears apart Conkeldurr but I'm curious if I should switch over to Calm since the bump in Sp. Defence is higher than what the Bold nature gives.
I question dumped because I've noticed shreds of my team have, through iterative work, seemingly converged on similar points as the stall sets you've derived. My current team (I almost rarely ever play my serious teams anymore) ended up being Ferrothorn/Heatran/Gyarados/Gliscor/Sylveon/Skarmory. As long as I'm aware of what I'm doing (I have a horrible tendency of doing stupid things like "Leave Ferrothorn in front of a Mega Garchomp") it tends to answer most things not named BD Azumarill...which if I fixed (Mega Venusaur) would leave the Kyurem-B hole wide open unless I successfully predict an Outrage...assuming the one I face packs one.
(On the topic of Gliscor, does anyone recommend I swap that out for a Hippowdon-like Pokemon? I intended the team to be low maintenance and utilize Sylveon as more of a stabilizing force so Toxic Heal is very useful as I'm not concerned about its Status...but Gliscor is much less capable of team synergy since it basically prevents Heal Bells from Sylveon to remove Burns without screwing it over...so I've been using Toxic on it instead. And, well, Rotom-Ws launching Will-o-Wisps on Ferrothorn/Sylveon slowly grinds on your sanity since you can never catch one in time with those to bring it down)
Cool, never knew that was you, 56. I unknowingly played a couple of games against you last night, including one really good one that went for just over 100 turns, which coincidentally also showed how valuable Ditto can be for Stall, even when playing against opposing stall teams. One subtle advantage of Ditto against Stall in the really long games is that it actually lets you win any PP war if hazards are up, by simply switching in and out and transforming into an opponents Pokemon that has a recovery move, since you get a free and brand new supply of PP each time, while theirs whittles away.
Ditto is also hands down the best and most universal back-up plan for dealing with set-up sweepers that have gotten out of hand, and merely having Ditto on your team both deters setting up, and also allows you to be more reckless with your hazard setting, since you don't have to worry about being set up on as you can simply litter the field with hazards, then steal their sweeper and sweep right back at them. The scouting aspect is also invaluable, giving you the information you need to know about how to best counter certain threats that can run a multitude of coverage moves.
Edit: Found that Replay; http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102835949
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This is the only part of your post I have anything to contribute on. I think Rotom-W is more troublesome than some give it credit for. Plenty of teams are willing to sacrifice something to stop volt-turn with rotom/landorus/scizor/talonflame/thundurus/zapdos/etc but for stall it isn't always so easy to just trash something to get your counter in for free. Rotom-W is by far the number one suspect, because it would be obvious to simply use a ground type to stop volt switch. However, his other STAB prevents most ground types from being viable switch ins. Pokemon with Volt Absorb or Motor Drive or Lightningrod generally don't appreciate the hydro pump either (or burns). You can't even trap the thing with Gothielle because it can Volt Switch out.
A simple Deoxys + Bisharp + Volturn + Offense can be a maddening battle for stall, with stacked hazards and possibly no chance to get the defog in (depending on your team's situation with Bisharp, oh my god it's hard to get Dark resist on the team). Nothing will be fast enough to catch the offensive pokemon in time and trying to switch your counters in wears everything down.
A full stop to Rotom-W is something I seriously want on all of my teams. I don't always fit it in when I'm throwing teams together, but it pays off enormously when I do because such pokemon can also generally take care of Thundurus, Zapdos, Raikou, and some water types on top of that.
Lanturn: Questionable, but I was able to put it to good use. Resists rotom's stabs, absorbs electric moves. Resists talonflames stabs as well. Also resists ice, and double resists steel. One big problem is if you run heal bell, you're running a cleric that is slow, no recovery, weak to EQ and solar beam, offensively weak, and only reasonably bulky. The HP stat can help make up for the defenses but wallbreakers can find their way through you. There's decent support options such as toxic, thunder wave, scald, discharge, rest, volt switch, rain dance, ice beam, icy wind, and soak. It's really only a pseudocleric though and its heal bell can't always be relied on.
Seismitoad: This thing is actually pretty cool. Rotom-W is stealth rock fodder. It doesn't like the burns of course, but you can legitimately go special with scald, grass knot, earth power, hidden power, or endeavor. None of these actually do anything to rotom, but you can use knock off, toxic, infestation, substitute, and/or rest to punish it. 105/75/75 defense is enough to be bulky on one side but even with full defensive investment Adamant CB talonflame still just slightly 2HKOs which is really goddamn stupid.
Gastrodon: We should all be familiar with this guy. Tons of support options, reliable recovery, and a great offensive movepool with nice base 92 stalling SpAtk. He and Seismitoad suffer a similar problem however, and that's lack of physical resistances. Things like close combat, secret sword, brave bird, earthquake, play rough, and return will do a number on you. Bulking up on the defensive side to protect against that will expose the low base SpDef. Gastrodon has another problem. He's not really doing anything to directly help his team. He's just sitting there in front walling what he's supposed to wall, but gastro won't be able to do anything against their switch in. He can't pass a wish, heal bell, control hazards, or anything like that. He just clings on with recover and tries to scald/toxic things.
These three pokemon crap on rotom-W and thundurus and plenty of other things, but lose to CB talonflame, lose to Charizard, and lose to specs keldeo. Something that water types just should not do unless there's a really good reason to have them on your team.
Any other ground types up to the task?
Zygarde: A truly interesting pokemon with better bulk, making him a better rotom switch in than garchomp or flygon.
108 HP / 121 Def / 95 SpDef
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (22.3 - 26.13%) (you could set up a sub)
0 SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (32.61 - 39.32%) (holy crap lol)
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (30.45 - 35.97%) -- 2.93% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (44.12 - 52.75%) -- 24.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (59.95 - 70.98%)
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (80.57 - 94.96%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (wow!)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (47 - 55.63%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (disappointing...)
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (35.49 - 41.96%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (thank thundurus for this)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (47.72 - 56.35%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (also disappointing...)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (71.46 - 84.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (this is nice at least)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (39.08 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (the difference is astounding)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (41.72 - 49.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (this is huge)
252 SpA Choice Scarf Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (43.16 - 51.79%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (this is huge too)
252 SpA Choice Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (32.37 - 38.12%) -- 55.22% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (fifty fifty)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (58.99 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I fucking hate this pokemon)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (39.08 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (ok)
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (77.93 - 92.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (check!)
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (41 - 48.44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Charizard-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in sun: (30.69 - 36.21%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (that's more like it)
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in sun: (28.05 - 33.09%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (even better!)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus-I Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (41.24 - 48.68%) (I like this)
0 SpA Life Orb Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (42.44 - 51.07%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I like this too)
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (50.83 - 60.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Ouch...)
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (46.04 - 54.43%) -- 62.89% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Hmm...)
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (30.21 - 35.49%) -- 0.63% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (:D)
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (34.53 - 40.52%)
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (28.29 - 33.33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (56.11 - 66.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (23.74 - 28.05%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock (LOL)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 129-152 (30.93 - 36.45%) -- 5.81% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (meh)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (36.69 - 43.88%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (34.53 - 40.52%) -- 99.51% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (26.13 - 30.93%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (22.3 - 26.13%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (73.62 - 87.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (wtf)
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (42.92 - 50.83%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (21.82 - 25.89%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock (lol)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (90.16 - 106.47%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (45.08 - 53.71%) -- 40.63% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (jesus christ it's not even likely to 2hko)
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (59.47 - 70.02%)
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (29.49 - 34.77%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (48.92 - 57.55%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (at least there's a chance!)
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (77.69 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I'm not sure how that works)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (73.38 - 86.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (54.91 - 64.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (87.29 - 103.11%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (feeling lucky?)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (82.25 - 97.12%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk MegaPinsir Aerialate Return vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (49.16 - 58.27%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (only Protect could save you)
+2 252 Atk MegaPinsir Aerialate vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (81.29 - 95.92%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (again I don't understand this)
+2 252 Atk MegaPinsir Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (41.24 - 48.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 MegaPinsir Aerialate Quick Attack vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (32.37 - 38.12%) -- 55.22% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Extremespeed bluffing)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (99.04 - 116.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (76.25 - 89.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (punish the leftovers!)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (88 - 103.59%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (58.03 - 67.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (35.97 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (finally a nice calc again)
4 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (54.67 - 64.74%) --> (27.81 - 33.09%) -- possible 2hko after Stealth Rock (not sure how to calc this)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (23.5 - 27.81%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock (coil up or toxic!)
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (42.44 - 50.59%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (:D)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (36.69 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (65.22 - 76.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (mother of god)
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (79.13 - 93.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (81.05 - 95.44%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Goodra Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (50.83 - 60.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (69.06 - 81.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (35.97 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (48.92 - 57.55%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (79.61 - 94%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Greninja Protean Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (89.2 - 106.47%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (eh, some sets don't use LO)
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (37.41 - 45.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (I don't know what SpA EVs are used)
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (43.88 - 51.79%) -- 14.84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (33.81 - 39.8%) -- 95.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
176 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (32.37 - 38.12%) -- 55.22% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (an assault vest set?)
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (33.81 - 39.8%) -- 95.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
STAB Ice Beams, LO Ice Beams, Specs Ice Beams, and Certain Band/Specs/LO Outrages/Meteors are just about the only thing that can OHKO him
252+ SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: (22.54 - 26.85%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock -- You can sub up on the hax togekiss!
Alright, clearly this guy will have his opportunities. These are the top threats in the meta and it's not like he has to try to tank all of this stuff on his own, I just listed these out to show the serious things he can survive, and the things that are slightly too much for him. I mean half the time he can switch into a harmless rotom or charizard or something. All of the above calcs included Leftovers, so I'm not sure what'll happen if you want to give him Sitrus berry so he can handle Pinsir and Specs Pump Keldeo. In a way, Sitrus is equal with 4 turns of leftovers so it might not be all bad. Anyway, how about we get some steels and water types to help him out, and let Zygarde do his own stally thing?
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Def
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Coil/Sleep Talk/Earthquake
- Coil/Sleep Talk/Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Def
Careful Nature
- Rest/Protect
- Toxic/Glare/Haze
- Toxic/Glare/Haze
- Dragon Tail
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Def
Careful Nature
- Toxic/Glare
- Dragon Tail
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
The first set is incredibly tempting to run something like the crocune, but beware of fairies if you choose not to run earthquake. Zygarde is one of those pokemon that can actually get away with resting without necessarily using sleep talk, remember that. Also remember that sleep talk fails 33% of the time anyway and is only useful during the two turns of rest.
The second set tries to be a good teammate by increasing it's own longevity while also messing with opponent pokemon. Rest is mentioned again because it's the only chance at recovery. Remember, there are plenty of pokemon you can freely rest against, like bulky Rotom-W, Skarmory, Charizard-Y, Chansey, bulky Aegislash, Gengar, and Gliscor.
The third set aims to retain the bulky dragon tail while also having a direct answer for fire/flying and bug/flying types and bug/fire. A status move of your choice.
To be honest basically any logical combination of Rest, Protect, Sleep Talk, Toxic, Coil, Glare, Haze, Dragon Tail, Earthquake, Substitute, Bind, and Rock Slide would be a good stall mon.
Firstly, I will completely agree on Bisharp with VoltTurn being extremely maddening. In particular Bisharp.
I will have to try this set sometime. It reads a lot like the defensive Gyarados set. I've noticed that Dragon Tail tends to end up fairly well against all non-Fairies. It would be a good win condition without Sleep Talk if you can clear the room of all the 2HKO threats...but I'm concerned how many of those exist. I mean, Ice is a common attacking type. It is worth a test either way though. I might report back with results later.
Might want to use a hide tag around those calcs for Zygarde. Lanturn also beats TF.
Has Rotom-w typing, remember? Doesn't do too bad vs Keldeo w/specs, although lanturn's downfall has always been the lack of recovery.
kirant It's rather hard to say what Blastoise hits that Gyara doesn't because Gyara, with EQ and Ice fang, has perfect neutral coverage but for one pokemon [Surskit]. However, Blastoise-mega will clear out Skarmory better, as well as Jellicent and ghosts in general. Dark/Water attacks are pretty good, but he'll miss out on some random stuff like Keldeo and Virzion. If just standard Gyara, Blastoise wins in coverage easily because Dtail/Waterfall loses to Azumarill, Empoleon, ferrothorn and multiple other pokemon.
For the natures, I'm just optimizing EVs. It doesn't make a huge difference as far as I can tell, it just depends on what you use Sylveon to take. I use Sylveon as a mixed wall so it really just gave a little more overall defense and I didn't see me losing any crucial KOs.
Doesn't ferrothorn solve Kyub as well as BD azumarill? Sylveon can take on Kyurem, so I don't see an issue with Venu OR ferrothorn. As for the issue with Gliscor, I run one on my switch/Uturn stall team, and you just have to get it in clean again... don't worry about heal belling, use it at will. Personally, Spdef gliscor with roost is the best aegi counter in the game.
By the way, with the analysis on P2/Sylveon: Any feedback from them? Any interest for me to post on other lesser-used pokemon or discuss roles? I was hoping they'd generate discussion on the topics themselves, and while it does revitalize the thread a bit, the topic goes all over the place (not bad at all, just wasn't the initial intention). If you're interested in those types of post, any pokemon/strategy/parts of stall you'd like to cover/see me cover (Sure, I'd like to see someone else write a few of these, think of it as archiving findings).
0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 186-222 (62.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 107-126 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 207-244 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 168-200 (52 - 61.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 107-126 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 207-244 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 168-200 (52 - 61.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Has Rotom-w typing, remember? Doesn't do too bad vs Keldeo w/specs, although lanturn's downfall has always been the lack of recovery.
kirant It's rather hard to say what Blastoise hits that Gyara doesn't because Gyara, with EQ and Ice fang, has perfect neutral coverage but for one pokemon [Surskit]. However, Blastoise-mega will clear out Skarmory better, as well as Jellicent and ghosts in general. Dark/Water attacks are pretty good, but he'll miss out on some random stuff like Keldeo and Virzion. If just standard Gyara, Blastoise wins in coverage easily because Dtail/Waterfall loses to Azumarill, Empoleon, ferrothorn and multiple other pokemon.
For the natures, I'm just optimizing EVs. It doesn't make a huge difference as far as I can tell, it just depends on what you use Sylveon to take. I use Sylveon as a mixed wall so it really just gave a little more overall defense and I didn't see me losing any crucial KOs.
Doesn't ferrothorn solve Kyub as well as BD azumarill? Sylveon can take on Kyurem, so I don't see an issue with Venu OR ferrothorn. As for the issue with Gliscor, I run one on my switch/Uturn stall team, and you just have to get it in clean again... don't worry about heal belling, use it at will. Personally, Spdef gliscor with roost is the best aegi counter in the game.
By the way, with the analysis on P2/Sylveon: Any feedback from them? Any interest for me to post on other lesser-used pokemon or discuss roles? I was hoping they'd generate discussion on the topics themselves, and while it does revitalize the thread a bit, the topic goes all over the place (not bad at all, just wasn't the initial intention). If you're interested in those types of post, any pokemon/strategy/parts of stall you'd like to cover/see me cover (Sure, I'd like to see someone else write a few of these, think of it as archiving findings).
That stance against Keldeo might make it hard to work with though. I'm imagining you'd still want a harder counter against it.
I meant as RestTalkers with equal coverage (Waterfall/DTail vs Water Pulse/DTail). Statistically Gyarados I've found is a much more suitable answer to Charizards as it doesn't exactly fear MegaZard X and can force MegaZard Y out if need be while Mega Blastoise has huge problems with either (
I use it in the same fashion. It's a pretty effective threat since so many Pokemon rely on that sub and so many Dragons which rely on their STAB to muscle through.
The killer set I've hated is Belly Drum/Superpower/Aqua Jet/Play Rough. Superpower rips through Ferrothorn/Heatran and as you've noted in your current team, Skarm is only a partial solution.
Huh. So it can. Dunno why I never bothered to check that (especially since it has literal immunity to the most treatening attack). I'll need to test out Mega Venusaur then (I always fear that set up phase though...if they predict a switch to Venusaur the weaknesses can be pretty crippling).
Personally, I thought it was quite good. I'm a fan of picking up little calculations here and there (since I mostly theory-mon out my team as oppose to play it)...for example, I wasn't acutely aware of exactly how dangerous Mega Sylveon is against Mega Heracross (a real concern to the previously mentioned team's core).
Also a huge fan of Virtual Duck/Porygon 2 even before Evolite came into existence. I've always been tempted to make a second team when I get the chance and it always felt it needed more recognition. Not the biggest fan of Discharge since it starts messing with your own ability to burn or Toxic but I guess I shouldn't take so much of a nickle and dime approach to damage either.
But yeah...key takeaway is that I might not reply much but reading any amount of calculation running is a great way to keep me interested. I run a stupid number of tests so seeing that someone else puts that much thought into construction is always nice. Personally, if you have any aces or unknown Pokemon you'd like to discuss, post away. I'll do some investigation myself and, while waiting to test out another team, might end up putting something down myself (since going off road tends to be the direction I've headed more and more...building standardized teams gets pretty boring pretty quick...though looking at my team, I'm pretty sure that counts as standardized)
Ajwf
Those are very nice write-ups. Imo the reason why there's no discussion being held is that you've already covered most of the stuff that needs to be talked about.
One thing I might add is if you're using Sylveon more as a defensive pivot rather than a cleric, Yawn is always a nice option over Protect.
Those are very nice write-ups. Imo the reason why there's no discussion being held is that you've already covered most of the stuff that needs to be talked about.
One thing I might add is if you're using Sylveon more as a defensive pivot rather than a cleric, Yawn is always a nice option over Protect.
I have a battle here I'm rather proud of against a standard hyper offense team, I think it's a great replay and while there was just a little hax, it adds to the suspense somewhat. There's a certain pokemon here whose hax has cost me plenty of battles. I think it goes to show that plenty of stall teams out there, including mine, can seem to be pretty strong but they fall apart at the seams when one key player gets unexpectedly knocked out. My team is working fairly well, thanks to the sylveon input we had from Aj, but there's issues with it that become apparent against HO teams, mainly a general weakness to mawile, thundurus, and landorus. I need to change a few things and standardize the team a little bit.
Included in the team are standard skarmory, standard sylveon, support mew, support whimsicott, tank zygarde, and anti-meta aerodactyl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-103418239
I've noticed that my teams are starting to stray away from the basics of stall, and involving more "wild card" or even "gimmick" sets, just to give me more possibilities and chances against the fast paced meta. I have two speedy pokemon on my team, aero and whimsicott, who aren't really that bulky unless they're coming in on resists or immunities. However, they provide me some much-needed utility, a bag of tricks if you will, and I think it's very viable to involve non-standard strategies into an otherwise vanilla stall team.
Included in the team are standard skarmory, standard sylveon, support mew, support whimsicott, tank zygarde, and anti-meta aerodactyl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-103418239
I've noticed that my teams are starting to stray away from the basics of stall, and involving more "wild card" or even "gimmick" sets, just to give me more possibilities and chances against the fast paced meta. I have two speedy pokemon on my team, aero and whimsicott, who aren't really that bulky unless they're coming in on resists or immunities. However, they provide me some much-needed utility, a bag of tricks if you will, and I think it's very viable to involve non-standard strategies into an otherwise vanilla stall team.
This is the only part of your post I have anything to contribute on. I think Rotom-W is more troublesome than some give it credit for. Plenty of teams are willing to sacrifice something to stop volt-turn with rotom/landorus/scizor/talonflame/thundurus/zapdos/etc but for stall it isn't always so easy to just trash something to get your counter in for free. Rotom-W is by far the number one suspect, because it would be obvious to simply use a ground type to stop volt switch. However, his other STAB prevents most ground types from being viable switch ins. Pokemon with Volt Absorb or Motor Drive or Lightningrod generally don't appreciate the hydro pump either (or burns). You can't even trap the thing with Gothielle because it can Volt Switch out.
A simple Deoxys + Bisharp + Volturn + Offense can be a maddening battle for stall, with stacked hazards and possibly no chance to get the defog in (depending on your team's situation with Bisharp, oh my god it's hard to get Dark resist on the team). Nothing will be fast enough to catch the offensive pokemon in time and trying to switch your counters in wears everything down.
A full stop to Rotom-W is something I seriously want on all of my teams. I don't always fit it in when I'm throwing teams together, but it pays off enormously when I do because such pokemon can also generally take care of Thundurus, Zapdos, Raikou, and some water types on top of that.
Lanturn: Questionable, but I was able to put it to good use. Resists rotom's stabs, absorbs electric moves. Resists talonflames stabs as well. Also resists ice, and double resists steel. One big problem is if you run heal bell, you're running a cleric that is slow, no recovery, weak to EQ and solar beam, offensively weak, and only reasonably bulky. The HP stat can help make up for the defenses but wallbreakers can find their way through you. There's decent support options such as toxic, thunder wave, scald, discharge, rest, volt switch, rain dance, ice beam, icy wind, and soak. It's really only a pseudocleric though and its heal bell can't always be relied on.
Seismitoad: This thing is actually pretty cool. Rotom-W is stealth rock fodder. It doesn't like the burns of course, but you can legitimately go special with scald, grass knot, earth power, hidden power, or endeavor. None of these actually do anything to rotom, but you can use knock off, toxic, infestation, substitute, and/or rest to punish it. 105/75/75 defense is enough to be bulky on one side but even with full defensive investment Adamant CB talonflame still just slightly 2HKOs which is really goddamn stupid.
Gastrodon: We should all be familiar with this guy. Tons of support options, reliable recovery, and a great offensive movepool with nice base 92 stalling SpAtk. He and Seismitoad suffer a similar problem however, and that's lack of physical resistances. Things like close combat, secret sword, brave bird, earthquake, play rough, and return will do a number on you. Bulking up on the defensive side to protect against that will expose the low base SpDef. Gastrodon has another problem. He's not really doing anything to directly help his team. He's just sitting there in front walling what he's supposed to wall, but gastro won't be able to do anything against their switch in. He can't pass a wish, heal bell, control hazards, or anything like that. He just clings on with recover and tries to scald/toxic things.
These three pokemon crap on rotom-W and thundurus and plenty of other things, but lose to CB talonflame, lose to Charizard, and lose to specs keldeo. Something that water types just should not do unless there's a really good reason to have them on your team.
Any other ground types up to the task?
Zygarde: A truly interesting pokemon with better bulk, making him a better rotom switch in than garchomp or flygon.
108 HP / 121 Def / 95 SpDef
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (22.3 - 26.13%) (you could set up a sub)
0 SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (32.61 - 39.32%) (holy crap lol)
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (30.45 - 35.97%) -- 2.93% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (44.12 - 52.75%) -- 24.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (59.95 - 70.98%)
252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (80.57 - 94.96%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (wow!)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (47 - 55.63%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (disappointing...)
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (35.49 - 41.96%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (thank thundurus for this)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (47.72 - 56.35%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (also disappointing...)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (71.46 - 84.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (this is nice at least)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (39.08 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (the difference is astounding)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (41.72 - 49.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (this is huge)
252 SpA Choice Scarf Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (43.16 - 51.79%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (this is huge too)
252 SpA Choice Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (32.37 - 38.12%) -- 55.22% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (fifty fifty)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (58.99 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I fucking hate this pokemon)
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (39.08 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (ok)
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (77.93 - 92.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (check!)
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (41 - 48.44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Charizard-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in sun: (30.69 - 36.21%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (that's more like it)
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in sun: (28.05 - 33.09%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (even better!)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus-I Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (41.24 - 48.68%) (I like this)
0 SpA Life Orb Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (42.44 - 51.07%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I like this too)
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (50.83 - 60.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Ouch...)
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (46.04 - 54.43%) -- 62.89% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Hmm...)
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (30.21 - 35.49%) -- 0.63% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (:D)
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (34.53 - 40.52%)
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (28.29 - 33.33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (56.11 - 66.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (23.74 - 28.05%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock (LOL)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 129-152 (30.93 - 36.45%) -- 5.81% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (meh)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (36.69 - 43.88%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (34.53 - 40.52%) -- 99.51% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (26.13 - 30.93%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (22.3 - 26.13%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (73.62 - 87.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (wtf)
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (42.92 - 50.83%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (21.82 - 25.89%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock (lol)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (90.16 - 106.47%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (45.08 - 53.71%) -- 40.63% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (jesus christ it's not even likely to 2hko)
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (59.47 - 70.02%)
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (29.49 - 34.77%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (48.92 - 57.55%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (at least there's a chance!)
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (77.69 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I'm not sure how that works)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (73.38 - 86.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (54.91 - 64.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (87.29 - 103.11%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (feeling lucky?)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde in rain: (82.25 - 97.12%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk MegaPinsir Aerialate Return vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (49.16 - 58.27%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (only Protect could save you)
+2 252 Atk MegaPinsir Aerialate vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (81.29 - 95.92%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (again I don't understand this)
+2 252 Atk MegaPinsir Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (41.24 - 48.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 MegaPinsir Aerialate Quick Attack vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (32.37 - 38.12%) -- 55.22% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Extremespeed bluffing)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (99.04 - 116.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (76.25 - 89.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (punish the leftovers!)
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (88 - 103.59%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (58.03 - 67.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (35.97 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (finally a nice calc again)
4 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (54.67 - 64.74%) --> (27.81 - 33.09%) -- possible 2hko after Stealth Rock (not sure how to calc this)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (23.5 - 27.81%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock (coil up or toxic!)
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (42.44 - 50.59%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (:D)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (36.69 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tyranitar Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Zygarde: (65.22 - 76.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (mother of god)
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (79.13 - 93.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (81.05 - 95.44%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Goodra Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (50.83 - 60.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (69.06 - 81.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (35.97 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (48.92 - 57.55%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (79.61 - 94%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Greninja Protean Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (89.2 - 106.47%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (eh, some sets don't use LO)
0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (37.41 - 45.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (I don't know what SpA EVs are used)
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (43.88 - 51.79%) -- 14.84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (33.81 - 39.8%) -- 95.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
176 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (32.37 - 38.12%) -- 55.22% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (an assault vest set?)
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Zygarde: (33.81 - 39.8%) -- 95.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
STAB Ice Beams, LO Ice Beams, Specs Ice Beams, and Certain Band/Specs/LO Outrages/Meteors are just about the only thing that can OHKO him
252+ SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: (22.54 - 26.85%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock -- You can sub up on the hax togekiss!
Alright, clearly this guy will have his opportunities. These are the top threats in the meta and it's not like he has to try to tank all of this stuff on his own, I just listed these out to show the serious things he can survive, and the things that are slightly too much for him. I mean half the time he can switch into a harmless rotom or charizard or something. All of the above calcs included Leftovers, so I'm not sure what'll happen if you want to give him Sitrus berry so he can handle Pinsir and Specs Pump Keldeo. In a way, Sitrus is equal with 4 turns of leftovers so it might not be all bad. Anyway, how about we get some steels and water types to help him out, and let Zygarde do his own stally thing?
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Def
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Coil/Sleep Talk/Earthquake
- Coil/Sleep Talk/Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Def
Careful Nature
- Rest/Protect
- Toxic/Glare/Haze
- Toxic/Glare/Haze
- Dragon Tail
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SDef / 16 Def
Careful Nature
- Toxic/Glare
- Dragon Tail
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
The first set is incredibly tempting to run something like the crocune, but beware of fairies if you choose not to run earthquake. Zygarde is one of those pokemon that can actually get away with resting without necessarily using sleep talk, remember that. Also remember that sleep talk fails 33% of the time anyway and is only useful during the two turns of rest.
The second set tries to be a good teammate by increasing it's own longevity while also messing with opponent pokemon. Rest is mentioned again because it's the only chance at recovery. Remember, there are plenty of pokemon you can freely rest against, like bulky Rotom-W, Skarmory, Charizard-Y, Chansey, bulky Aegislash, Gengar, and Gliscor.
The third set aims to retain the bulky dragon tail while also having a direct answer for fire/flying and bug/flying types and bug/fire. A status move of your choice.
To be honest basically any logical combination of Rest, Protect, Sleep Talk, Toxic, Coil, Glare, Haze, Dragon Tail, Earthquake, Substitute, Bind, and Rock Slide would be a good stall mon.
Shaymin is a good counter to Rotom-W, and has better overall bulk and more offensive ability than Gastrodon, Lanturn and Seismitoad. Additionally, those 3 don't really appreciate taking a burn from WoW as it eats into their ability to tank repeated hits, whereas it doesn't really bother Shaymin much because of Natural Cure, so it takes nothing from both of Rotom-W's STAB's and doesn't get annoyed by its status move. Lanturn can use Heal Bell to cure itself of that, but burning a turn just to do that isn't productive. The other good part is that Shaymin can be physically defensive and still take almost nothing from any of Rotom's attacks, which means Volt-Switching into a physical attacker like the dreaded Bisharp wont be a crippling play for you. In fact, Shaymin checks Bisharp very nicely if they do that, and only has to invest 16 EV's in speed to outspeed Adamant Bisharp, which detracts next to nothing from its bulk. Also, Shyamin outright threatens to nearly KO Rotom with an uninvested Seed Flare, and anything that comes in to tank one won't like the SpD drop, which then makes it susceptible to being taken out by a coverage move like Earth Power.
Furthermore, unlike the other 3, physically defensive Shaymin handles Specs Keldeo ok too, avoiding the 2HKO from any of its moves. The hardest hitting move Keldeo has against Shaymin is HP Flying, but that's not terribly common anymore from what I've been seeing and is easy to switch into with something else like Skarmory, and Icy Wind can't 2HKO after lefties. If they do use Icy Wind, you can rest after the second one, then switch out into something that can easily stomach it and take that turn to set up.
Shaymin is self sufficient in taking care of its own HP and Status, can also use Aromatherapy to support the team, and because of its bulk and typing it can usually find an opportunity to do so. It has 2 good recovery options in Rest and Synthesis, and using Rest before switching out means that Shaymin can always come back in to counter the things it's meant for repeatedly at full health, and helps in stall wars.
Shaymin Calculations
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 62-73 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 39-47 (9.6 - 11.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Shaymin: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 10.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 97-115 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after 1 layer of Spikes)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Shaymin: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Shaymin: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 174-206 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Shaymin Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 232-276 (85.6 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
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My first thought was RestTalk Gyarados. Unless Mega Mawile has Swords Dance as well (which really limits its coverage with Sub/Swords Dance/Focus Punch as its 3 moves), it'll be a tough go for it as the best it can do is a 3HKO with Play Rough. If you come in the turn it sets ups the Sub, you should be able to break it with about 60% HP remaining and a fairly exposed Mega Mawile.
It'll be a slow win (you're only going to deal ~30% yourself), but it's a check at least.
It'll be a slow win (you're only going to deal ~30% yourself), but it's a check at least.
Mandibuzz is a good partner for Sylveon. It's all I've been playing lately:
Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Toxic
- Defog / Whirlwind
Sylveon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 236 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef / 16 Spd
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
In addition to cover each other's respective special and physical weaknesses (Sylveon takes every Ice Beam and Thunderbolt ever while Mandibuzz shrugs off Bullet Punches and Iron Heads), Sylveon keeps Mandibuzz healthy with Heal Bell so it sticks around longer and Mandibuzz's Defog keeps the field clear so Sylveon isn't worn down while it passes Wishes. It's not perfect, Tentacruel, Gliscor, Tyranitar, and Terrakion are still problems, but it's a good place to start.
And adding Mega Venusaur to the core patches that up nicely anyway.
Following the 5 stall + 1 wildcard theme, what dedicated lead shuts down deoxys-d and deoxys-s hazard leads?
I don't think Taunt is the answer, because plenty of Deoxys use Mental Herb or Magic Coat. I also don't think KOing is an answer because plenty of Deoxys use Red Card, and Deoxys-D is hard as hell to kill.
FAST scarf trick or PRANKSTER scarf trick can work, I mention fast/prankster because deoxys-s can actually taunt scarfed things with base 103 speed or less. Meaning we need base 104 speed OR prankster.
It completely takes the guesswork out of the equation. Fact is, Deoxys will be choice locked if it stays in. However, it is still allowed to get a layer of hazards up, but you can immediately switch in your spinner/defogger.
Trick and Switcheroo also have the benefit of working through Magic Coat (move) and Magic Bounce (ability).
A pokemon with Magic Bounce like Espeon, Xatu, or Absol-Mega might also be a good lead to prevent hazards, but LO Deoxys-S can KO Espeon and Xatu with Knock Off with 252 Atk EVs, and Sash Deoxys-S can survive Sucker Punch and KO Absol-Mega with Superpower.
Finally, Oblivious is an ability that prevents Taunt, but I haven't seen any viable user that can use this ability just to Trick a choice item. Slowbro would be giving up Regenerator for example.
Fast Trick/Switcheroo Users: Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie, Espeon, Mismagius, Latios, Latias, Azelf, Froslass, Swoobat, Zoroark
Prankster Trick/Switch Users: Meowstic, Murkrow, Volbeat, Klefki, Liepard, Sableye, Whimsicott
Other stall players, how are you managing Deoxys hazard leads that run Taunt(s) or Bisharp to prevent defog, and ghosts to prevent spin? I'd like to hear input from other people who might be having the same issues as I am.
I don't think Taunt is the answer, because plenty of Deoxys use Mental Herb or Magic Coat. I also don't think KOing is an answer because plenty of Deoxys use Red Card, and Deoxys-D is hard as hell to kill.
FAST scarf trick or PRANKSTER scarf trick can work, I mention fast/prankster because deoxys-s can actually taunt scarfed things with base 103 speed or less. Meaning we need base 104 speed OR prankster.
It completely takes the guesswork out of the equation. Fact is, Deoxys will be choice locked if it stays in. However, it is still allowed to get a layer of hazards up, but you can immediately switch in your spinner/defogger.
Trick and Switcheroo also have the benefit of working through Magic Coat (move) and Magic Bounce (ability).
A pokemon with Magic Bounce like Espeon, Xatu, or Absol-Mega might also be a good lead to prevent hazards, but LO Deoxys-S can KO Espeon and Xatu with Knock Off with 252 Atk EVs, and Sash Deoxys-S can survive Sucker Punch and KO Absol-Mega with Superpower.
Finally, Oblivious is an ability that prevents Taunt, but I haven't seen any viable user that can use this ability just to Trick a choice item. Slowbro would be giving up Regenerator for example.
Fast Trick/Switcheroo Users: Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie, Espeon, Mismagius, Latios, Latias, Azelf, Froslass, Swoobat, Zoroark
Prankster Trick/Switch Users: Meowstic, Murkrow, Volbeat, Klefki, Liepard, Sableye, Whimsicott
Other stall players, how are you managing Deoxys hazard leads that run Taunt(s) or Bisharp to prevent defog, and ghosts to prevent spin? I'd like to hear input from other people who might be having the same issues as I am.
For Deo-S and D, Aegislash is a simple addition for #6 on your team which can lead against them and restrict them to 1 layer with a combination of Shadow Ball + Sneak. Even if Deo-D has Red Card, whatever gets dragged out will usually be able to kill it from that range. 1 layer isn't that big of a deal and can be spun or defogged away later, while they basically started 5-6. Counter leading Aegislash sometimes happens, especially if they have a Bisharp, but any successful stall team must have a counter or plan for taking down Bisharp anyway, so that isn't usually a big problem.
However, if you want absolutely no hazards to go down at all, Adamant Life Orb Scolipede can 1HKO Deo-D with Megahorn before he can do anything, plus it also checks and revenge kills a bunch of A and S-rank pokemon, and also has access to hazards of its own, so it's definitely not dead weight outside of countering Deo-D.
As for removing hazards, I've been using Mega Blastoise lately and he's easily the best Spinner in the game. He has excellent bulk, 1 or 2HKO's any ghost that dares to try and spinblock him with Dark Pulse, spreads burns with Scald coming off a huge base SpA stat, and has other good coverage options like (boosted) Aura Sphere and Ice Beam. Additionally, Mega Blastoise is also an excellent counter lead to Deo-D, and even Deo-S, smashing them both hard with Dark Pulse (which gets Deo-S down to 1 HP if it has a sash), and then finishing it off with a Rapid Spin.
Another interesting thing I've been mucking around with lately is Iron Defense Mandibuzz. It laughs at Bisharp, can Defog like a champ, and becomes a win condition once any special attacker that can beat it is neutralized.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-103861411
However, if you want absolutely no hazards to go down at all, Adamant Life Orb Scolipede can 1HKO Deo-D with Megahorn before he can do anything, plus it also checks and revenge kills a bunch of A and S-rank pokemon, and also has access to hazards of its own, so it's definitely not dead weight outside of countering Deo-D.
As for removing hazards, I've been using Mega Blastoise lately and he's easily the best Spinner in the game. He has excellent bulk, 1 or 2HKO's any ghost that dares to try and spinblock him with Dark Pulse, spreads burns with Scald coming off a huge base SpA stat, and has other good coverage options like (boosted) Aura Sphere and Ice Beam. Additionally, Mega Blastoise is also an excellent counter lead to Deo-D, and even Deo-S, smashing them both hard with Dark Pulse (which gets Deo-S down to 1 HP if it has a sash), and then finishing it off with a Rapid Spin.
Another interesting thing I've been mucking around with lately is Iron Defense Mandibuzz. It laughs at Bisharp, can Defog like a champ, and becomes a win condition once any special attacker that can beat it is neutralized.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-103861411
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I'm using the typical M-Venu, Skarmory, Aegislash, Quagsire, and Heatran except I'm using Sylveon because of pokebattle point limitations. My question is: should I continue using Sylveon + Heatran or should I use Chansey + Krookodile or Chansey over Sylveon and something in Aegislash's place?
Max defense Quagsire can reliably swap into a +2 bisharp. So if you bring bisharp you can handle deo-sharp reasonable well (if you can get off the defog). Unless thunderus has a grass move you can also beat physical defiant thuderus with Quagsire.
Quagsire also adds a alot of general value imo. Very good ddtar counter etc. So my suggestion is to try quag.
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While waiting on baton pass to resolve itself, I'm going to start doing some research on another project. I think right now, if you have a Charizard-Y, Bisharp, Mega DDancer, Deo-, Keldeo, and Aegi counter you've got yourself a good ground work. I'd also argue that a mega pinsir check is now fine and focusing on Bisharp/ZardY is the most important piece. Personally, I want to use again the lesser used guys and plan on using one of the elves/pixies (uxie and co) to full a niche Rocker/Lando-I counter.
One of the best counters to Charizard-Y (and a lot of other S and A ranked threats) is specially defensive Dragonite. He resists or is immune to every one of Charizard-Y's common moves: Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Solar Beam and Earthquake. He also deals with Aegislash easily, thanks to the special bulk and access to Earthquake, while also resisting Sacred Sword. It can also shrug off any of Choice Specs Keldeo's moves, except for Icy Wind, which can be tanked thanks to Multiscale (takes only about 35% because of it, then you simply switch to an Ice resist). He has access to reliable recovery in Roost, the amazing Multiscale, multiple phazing moves (including Dragon Tail which can't be Taunted, gets STAB on and deals nice damage), and also Heal Bell and Defog for team support. In short, he has one of the most extensive movepools in the game, so you can customize to your hearts content. And unlike most other walls, he has an excellent base 134 Attack stat to work with which can dent things even without investment. He doesn't necessarily have to go purely physical either, and can run things like Ice Beam to make short work of Landorus, etc.
A quick example set:
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail/Stone Edge
- Toxic/Thunder Wave
- Roost
Because of Multiscale, it basically gives Nite a turn to do whatever he likes, which could mean getting off an important Toxic or T-Wave against something you need to hit. Steels like Heatran and Aegislash can't come in to take the Toxic, lest they wish to take an EQ. Mawile won't like taking that EQ either, it does 50% minimum even after the Intimidate drop. Roost can make killing Nite extremely agonizing, doubling his defenses at full health, which makes toxic stalling easier and deadlier.
So Dragonite is definitely worth looking into for your stall oriented teams (well, any team really) because he can patch a lot of holes your team may have in 1 slot, and his typing and move options could be just what you need.
A quick example set:
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail/Stone Edge
- Toxic/Thunder Wave
- Roost
Because of Multiscale, it basically gives Nite a turn to do whatever he likes, which could mean getting off an important Toxic or T-Wave against something you need to hit. Steels like Heatran and Aegislash can't come in to take the Toxic, lest they wish to take an EQ. Mawile won't like taking that EQ either, it does 50% minimum even after the Intimidate drop. Roost can make killing Nite extremely agonizing, doubling his defenses at full health, which makes toxic stalling easier and deadlier.
So Dragonite is definitely worth looking into for your stall oriented teams (well, any team really) because he can patch a lot of holes your team may have in 1 slot, and his typing and move options could be just what you need.
I've been having really good results with max defensive bulk Umbreon lately. A simple set of Foul Play/Wish/Protect/Heal Bell. It's a cleric that among other things beats the majority of Aegislash, and all you need is another mon that can handle the odd Sacred Sword sets (which I think should be more common than they are currently, after SD lost its popularity people suddenly forgot about this awesome fighting type move and drop it for ... steel coverage? lol)
I'm going to try to build a team that has a different aromahealbeller, which would let Umbreon have a different support move instead of Heal Bell there.
It's very comparable to Ajwf's Sylveon set, except different things are hit hard with Foul Play vs Hyper Voice. Both have pros and cons!
Umbreon will be useless against Terrakion and Keldeo of course, quite the opposite of Sylveon. Umbreon also brings with it a terrible weakness to U-Turn, so teammates that can handle volt-turn cores are much appreciated (I lost to the same volt-turn team twice in the same night :/ )
At the same time, Umbreon clearly has better bulk overall.
STAB Foul Play really wrecks Hyper Offense. Umbreon takes like 30% from LO Deo-S superpower and ohkos in return. Things like Charizard and Excadrill and Talonflame can't really switch in at all. etc
Finally, synchronize is a really great ability to abuse. Predict or not, it will lessen the number of status thrown your way in the first place. And it's nice to be able to use that ability without using a crappy psychic pursuit bait pokemon.
And the resistances to dark/ghost/psychic are certainly extremely helpful.
It's a pick-your-poison scenario.
I think newfound sylveon's popularity has spurned people into running more Iron Heads and Poison Jabs than they would have before.
I'm going to try to build a team that has a different aromahealbeller, which would let Umbreon have a different support move instead of Heal Bell there.
It's very comparable to Ajwf's Sylveon set, except different things are hit hard with Foul Play vs Hyper Voice. Both have pros and cons!
Umbreon will be useless against Terrakion and Keldeo of course, quite the opposite of Sylveon. Umbreon also brings with it a terrible weakness to U-Turn, so teammates that can handle volt-turn cores are much appreciated (I lost to the same volt-turn team twice in the same night :/ )
At the same time, Umbreon clearly has better bulk overall.
STAB Foul Play really wrecks Hyper Offense. Umbreon takes like 30% from LO Deo-S superpower and ohkos in return. Things like Charizard and Excadrill and Talonflame can't really switch in at all. etc
Finally, synchronize is a really great ability to abuse. Predict or not, it will lessen the number of status thrown your way in the first place. And it's nice to be able to use that ability without using a crappy psychic pursuit bait pokemon.
And the resistances to dark/ghost/psychic are certainly extremely helpful.
It's a pick-your-poison scenario.
I think newfound sylveon's popularity has spurned people into running more Iron Heads and Poison Jabs than they would have before.
Excuse me for being incredibly niche, but someone was talking to me (Megastall on PS!) about making stall teams and some help, which is rather usual. Now, I kinda know his capabilities so I wouldn't suggest something like VenuTran (I suggest it as a starter kit to anyone trying to build stall because it is so intuitive) but he came up with a rather niche team... While it needed a good deal of work (Has fire and ice weaknesses), he was using a pokemon that everyone would generally scoff at to some success: Torterra.
Now, of course torterra has some niche (If not bad) stats and a sad typing, but nevertheless it wasn't terrible... in fact, I kind of liked it. He was using an AV set and I don't know what specific thread, but I'm going to theorymon a simple one.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
Talked about going vs Landorus-I and Thundy-I lacking HP Ice:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- 11.9% chance to 3HKO
If you wanted to max invest, you still can't take the 4x weakness WELL but...
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO
The original plan was to hardcounter rotom-wash and provide a decent switch for Aegislash.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torterra: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Obviously some optimization is needed, as well as a good cleric (Sylveon is a good choice to take pokemon like conkeldurr and Kyurem). It's niche, but I just wanted to show off the fact that AV+NU pokemon can mean viable choices.
Edit: The four attacks would be EQ/SeedBomb/RockSlide/Super Power, which is pretty fantastic coverage and means you also counter stuff like Tyranitar... This is mega but same difference.
0 Atk Torterra Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torterra: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Now, of course torterra has some niche (If not bad) stats and a sad typing, but nevertheless it wasn't terrible... in fact, I kind of liked it. He was using an AV set and I don't know what specific thread, but I'm going to theorymon a simple one.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO
Talked about going vs Landorus-I and Thundy-I lacking HP Ice:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- 11.9% chance to 3HKO
If you wanted to max invest, you still can't take the 4x weakness WELL but...
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO
The original plan was to hardcounter rotom-wash and provide a decent switch for Aegislash.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torterra: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Obviously some optimization is needed, as well as a good cleric (Sylveon is a good choice to take pokemon like conkeldurr and Kyurem). It's niche, but I just wanted to show off the fact that AV+NU pokemon can mean viable choices.
Edit: The four attacks would be EQ/SeedBomb/RockSlide/Super Power, which is pretty fantastic coverage and means you also counter stuff like Tyranitar... This is mega but same difference.
0 Atk Torterra Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torterra: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You can't have Hyper Voice + Heal Bell + Yawn + Wish on the same set
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