Other Stall

[alexwolf]

It's also worth mentioning that Gliscor can't have Poison Heal with Defog, as Defog is a 4th gen TM / tutor move (Fire Red / Leaf Green) and Poison Heal is a 5th gen DW ability. This means that you have to go with Leftovers, which leaves Gliscor vulnerable to status and makes his lack of bulk even more obvious. I would never use Defog Gliscor on a stall team.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Gliscor falls in an odd range which it a decent wall, but not a phenomenal one. I know, for example, that Gliscor is sometimes just barely is unable to stop something like Dragonite from sweeping if barring down on it and sweeping the team, while something like Hippowdon can stop it without a doubt, the defensive edge matters.

Gliscor is still a solid Pokemon though, the resistances and immunities from the flying type are critical and allow it to combat Pokemon Hippowdon couldn't, along with utility moves like Taunt. There is a reason Gliscor was OU een before it got Poison Heal.

Overall, its a decent wall IMO, but not on the same level as Hippowdon.

 

[Dragontamer]

Gliscor falls in an odd range which it a decent wall, but not a phenomenal one. I know, for example, that Gliscor is sometimes just barely is unable to stop something like Dragonite from sweeping if barring down on it and sweeping the team, while something like Hippowdon can stop it without a doubt, the defensive edge matters.

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its tankier than Celebi, so that's saying something. Not a lot of things are as tanky as Hippowdon (who is damn near Lugia in terms of physical walling potential), but Gliscor is still a solid wall... especially since it heals 12.5% each turn instead of 6.25%. That bit of extra healing adds up to a lot of sponging.

--------------------

Anyway, speaking of "stall", what about Mega Tyranitar ?? Sets stealth rocks, sets up sandstorm, it will be like GSC TSS strategies of old, except TTar doesn't need to run Sandstorm.

Lets look at some calcs, right?

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 211-250 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Physically, Mega-TTar has more bulk than Hippowdon. (although Hippowdon will have leftovers and slack-off). In Special Defense, Mega-TTar has much much more, even outside the sand.

252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 297-351 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO

I'm theorymoning here, but I think Mega-TTar is going to be the premier mega for Stall Teams. Sandstorm is ever so important source of passive damage and Rock-pokemon Sp. Defense, TTar has easy access to Stealth Rocks.

TTar also has access to Roar / Dragon Tail and Stealth Rocks. So it can most certainly shuffle enemies around. You'll probably want someone with actual recovery to do that job however... but you're still looking at a `mon with 164 Attack and 700 BST. Surely it can do _something_ in stall, right?

Remember: TSS was a strategy before Sand Stream even existed. Sand Stream may be nerfed now, but it ought to be possible to run a stall-game using only normal Sandstorm as an attack. Granted, wallbreakers weren't as strong back then, and rapid spin didn't exist... but the theory is still sound IMO.

Having both Hippowdon and Mega-TTar as Sandstream users will help out sand-stall teams greatly.

 

[alexwolf]

Defensive MEvos without recovery don't have any place in stall teams. Leftovers easily makes up for the lower special bulk when games last long, and Tyranitar is not a physical wall anyway, so using him to check physical threats shouldn't be your concern. SpD Tyranitar with Stealth Rock and Lefties or Choice Scarf Tyranitar are much better choices for stall teams, unless your team utilizes heavy Wish support.

 

[Hidious]

Why is there such an obsession with filling your team with a mega evolution? It's one thing to build your team around an awesome setup sweeper like mega lucario. It's quite another thing when you just throw one in there because you think you have to. Only a few of the mega evolutions are that good anyway, even fewer of them great for stall. If something is better for your team, use it.

 

[Dragontamer]

Erm, 700 BST sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I understand that the lack of leftovers is an issue (in three turns, Leftovers makes up the HP and then some on the Sp. Def side, and something like ~4 turns on the Physical Side), but the universal upage in stats... from attack to even speed, probably is useful to someone.

Especially on a pokemon with 100 base HP, massive increases to Defense and Sp. Defense (on top of the Sp. Def boost due to Sandstorm)... it basically makes TTar the ultimate tank.

Leftovers TTar doesn't stall anyway. Leftovers is not enough: TTar is going down in three or less turns against most bulky waters. (one turn for the switch, two turns for the KO). You have a point about Scarf TTar being useful, but not because its a "Stall" pokemon, but because it gives surprise kills vs most faster pokemon.

Similarly, Mega-Tar is less of a "stall" pokemon, and more of a "tank" pokemon who has attributes beneficial to your typical stall team. But 165 Atk will surely blast a hole in your opponent's... more so than 134 Base Atk. It doesn't have the strength of CB or Life Orb, but Life Orb has NO purpose on a Stall team, and Choice Band doesn't give you the maneuverability most Stall teams need either.

Hell, Mega-Tyranitar with 0+ investment into Attack has basically the same attack as Scarf 252+ Tyranitar (400 vs 403), and much much better defenses to boot... and 252 more EVs to spend elsewhere.

Anyway, without reliable recovery, TTar isn't lasting long anyway. Your primary stall will be the Hippo or Skarm due to Slack Off / Roost (and better defensive typing to boot). I'd think that maybe Smooth Rock would be better on TTar, for ensuring a longer Sandstorm... but with Leftovers, he's pretty much 3HKOed by everyone anyway... even at max defenses. (at least... everyone who is willing to stay in on TTar 3HKOs him). You might as well have TTar move forward with higher attack, defense, sp. defense, and speed, so that is limited life-span can be used to ensure maximum amounts of damage to the opponent.

Scarf, sure, it does that job. But Tanky Mega-TTar does a different job, one that is worth noting IMO. And since Stall is all about living a few more turns, seeing Mega-TTar live for one or two more turns longer than Scarf TTar might be useful.

After all, the massive increase to physical defense will matter in many matchups. Case in point: Mega-Tar can 1v1 Life Orb Scizors (without Superpower) and come out on top. (252+ Life Orb Bullet Punch 3HKOs vs 252/252 defenses while 0+ EV Stone Edge 2HKOs 252/0 Scizor). After the Transform, Scizor is slower than Mega-Tar to boot.

 

[Pan.]

I couldn't resist to try out Claydol in the Pokebank OU.

It fits pretty well in my Stall-Tean because it has an immunity to Spikes and Sticky Web and takes 6 % from SR.

It doesnt tank hits like other Stall-machines but if you need a reliable spinner - Claydol deserves a shot

 

[alexwolf]

Erm, 700 BST sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I understand that the lack of leftovers is an issue (in three turns, Leftovers makes up the HP and then some on the Sp. Def side, and something like ~4 turns on the Physical Side), but the universal upage in stats... from attack to even speed, probably is useful to someone.

Especially on a pokemon with 100 base HP, massive increases to Defense and Sp. Defense (on top of the Sp. Def boost due to Sandstorm)... it basically makes TTar the ultimate tank.

Leftovers TTar doesn't stall anyway. Leftovers is not enough: TTar is going down in three or less turns against most bulky waters. (one turn for the switch, two turns for the KO). You have a point about Scarf TTar being useful, but not because its a "Stall" pokemon, but because it gives surprise kills vs most faster pokemon.

Similarly, Mega-Tar is less of a "stall" pokemon, and more of a "tank" pokemon who has attributes beneficial to your typical stall team. But 165 Atk will surely blast a hole in your opponent's... more so than 134 Base Atk. It doesn't have the strength of CB or Life Orb, but Life Orb has NO purpose on a Stall team, and Choice Band doesn't give you the maneuverability most Stall teams need either.

Hell, Mega-Tyranitar with 0+ investment into Attack has basically the same attack as Scarf 252+ Tyranitar (400 vs 403), and much much better defenses to boot... and 252 more EVs to spend elsewhere.

Anyway, without reliable recovery, TTar isn't lasting long anyway. Your primary stall will be the Hippo or Skarm due to Slack Off / Roost (and better defensive typing to boot). I'd think that maybe Smooth Rock would be better on TTar, for ensuring a longer Sandstorm... but with Leftovers, he's pretty much 3HKOed by everyone anyway... even at max defenses. (at least... everyone who is willing to stay in on TTar 3HKOs him). You might as well have TTar move forward with higher attack, defense, sp. defense, and speed, so that is limited life-span can be used to ensure maximum amounts of damage to the opponent.

Scarf, sure, it does that job. But Tanky Mega-TTar does a different job, one that is worth noting IMO. And since Stall is all about living a few more turns, seeing Mega-TTar live for one or two more turns longer than Scarf TTar might be useful.

After all, the massive increase to physical defense will matter in many matchups. Case in point: Mega-Tar can 1v1 Life Orb Scizors (without Superpower) and come out on top. (252+ Life Orb Bullet Punch 3HKOs vs 252/252 defenses while 0+ EV Stone Edge 2HKOs 252/0 Scizor). After the Transform, Scizor is slower than Mega-Tar to boot.

Tank or wall, it's the same thing when you are taking hits for more than 3 turns, which is what happens most of the time when you are using stall teams. Tyranitar is actually pretty hard to kill for a slew of special attackers, such as Latios, Latias, Heatran, Togekiss, Goodra, Clefable, Starmie, Venusaur, Magnezone, and more, meaning that it can indeed take a lot of turns for your opponent to take it down, especially if you are using it correctly, meaning by bringing him on special attackers that he can wall, not ones that can 2HKO him.

Also, the point of Scarf Tyranitar is to be faster than Pokemon such as Baton Pass Celebi, Gengar, and Life Orb Starmie, to trap and kill/damage them before they can 2HKO back or switch out, something that Mega Tyranitar can't do.

Just use Leftovers Tyranitar in stall and you will see that it's miles ahead of Mega Tyranitar, it's really a practice thing, theory can be deceiving a lot of times.

 

[Ajwf]

Actually, having used both, I completely disagree with alexwolf (how do you even tag names... I can't ever seem to do that). Mega tyranitar has some awesome defenses, and still has access to the full recovery rest. As stall team is going to regardless have access heal bell, finding a fairy to work with tyranitar is not particularly challenging. 100 HP means that Sylveon and armoatisse (who is awesome because no taunting) and even exeuggtor can all wish pass and give about 50% health.

The most crucial part to mega tyranitar is his ability to function as a phazer and/or a rock setter. He functions like air balloon heatran in gen 5, but with more fire power and great defenses.

 

[Alejandro36]

Speaking about megas, what about mega venusaur? It only has psychic and flying weakness, and the users of those moves usually get walled by bliss/skarm anyway. It provides immunity to spore and can also sleep powder, synthesis, leech seed, toxic, giga drain, sludgebomb, EQ, among other things.

 

[alexwolf]

Actually, having used both, I completely disagree with alexwolf (how do you even tag names... I can't ever seem to do that). Mega tyranitar has some awesome defenses, and still has access to the full recovery rest. As stall team is going to regardless have access heal bell, finding a fairy to work with tyranitar is not particularly challenging. 100 HP means that Sylveon and armoatisse (who is awesome because no taunting) and even exeuggtor can all wish pass and give about 50% health.

The most crucial part to mega tyranitar is his ability to function as a phazer and/or a rock setter. He functions like air balloon heatran in gen 5, but with more fire power and great defenses.

Oh yeah, forgot about Rest, this is true. I meant that Lefties Ttar > Mega Ttar if your Ttar isn't running Rest and if your team lacks Wish basically, but if you have one of those two then Mega Ttar works just fine.

 

[NotSoClutch]

How usable is something like vaporeon, gastrodon, or the unaware blue blob in stall this Gen? I want to try and build a stall team and I thought a bulky water type similar to these guys might be a good place to start.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

How usable is something like vaporeon, gastrodon, or the unaware blue blob in stall this Gen? I want to try and build a stall team and I thought a bulky water type similar to these guys might be a good place to start.

Quagsire used to be good when Shadow Ball wasn't a thing yet on Aegislash, but I've backed out on using it anymore. It just struggles with special hits and even powerful physical hits. Gastrodon can't really hurt Rotom-W. It will just burn you and switch out, not worrying about status itself thanks to ChestoRest. That said there's no reason to use it over something like Chansey, which walls anything special and more (aside from like special Mega Lucario), while providing much better team support with Wish, Heal Bell, Natural Cure etc. Vaporeon is eh. Always has been really.

If you're gonna run stall, you really want to use the best of the best if you want to be effective. People are using overpowered pokes like Mega Kangaskhan and Lucario, so you need some sturdy walls to counter them. Mega Venusaur is an excellent pokemon, not just on stall but in general. It walls pokemon like Azumarill, Rotom-W, Greninja, Breloom, Genesect and countless others to no end. It's also a great bait mon for Scizor/Heatran with EQ and HP Fire, as well as Talonflame with Sleep Powder (neutralize that threat! Watch out for Sleep Talk though). You really have to use it to see how good it is, before I started using it I thought: "Oh yeah it's defensive Venusaur, probably UU material with perma-sun gone." I couldn't be more wrong. Mega Venusaur + Heatran is the new CeleTran in XY imo. Celebi is kinda dead anyway with Genesect back in OU :x

 

[MagicMissingno]

I just remembered, if Ferrothorn is carrying rocky helmet for physical attackers then unless something really threatening like Mega-Kang or Genesect is waiting in the wings then it doesn't mind having it's item knocked off as much.

 

[qwazz]

I couldn't resist to try out Claydol in the Pokebank OU.

It fits pretty well in my Stall-Tean because it has an immunity to Spikes and Sticky Web and takes 6 % from SR.

It doesnt tank hits like other Stall-machines but if you need a reliable spinner - Claydol deserves a shot

Try excadrill with air balloon. It resists rocks x4, and avoids all forms of spikes. Many spin blockers wouldn't want to risk going against excadrill. But claydol is basically spin blocker bait since its weak to ghost and it only has one role, as well as basically no offensive presence.

 

[Nintenb0y]

I am using a dual sand core of Physically defensive Hippo and SpD Tyranitar and it has been working wonders. I'm almost 1800 on the Poklebank OU ladder. Support cast include cleric Clefable and SpD Defog Zapdos.

 

[SansNickel]

How usable is something like vaporeon, gastrodon, or the unaware blue blob in stall this Gen? I want to try and build a stall team and I thought a bulky water type similar to these guys might be a good place to start.

Vaporeon is kinda meh without hydrarest. I actually use gastrodon with infestation to TRAP Rotom-W, since they will WoW. Now they're trapped and walled, you can proceed to toxic and recover off any burn damage. You also beat the ChestoRest set one on one, though it does take quite a while (infestation + well timed toxics mean they must rest everytime they wake up). But, that's what stall is. Scald is also amazing..
Quagsire isn't that good honestly. Things are just too powerful. I'd rather use ditto to counter setting up (though that's not really stall, it helps).

 

[kleine]

I'd rather use ditto to counter setting up (though that's not really stall, it helps).

I actually encountered Ditto when playing against a high-ranked stall team. It's pretty nice to have against offensive teams, though it's dead weight against opposing stall teams.

 

[Seiterman]

Admittedly I haven't tried full stall myself, and nobody is denying the raw bulk of Hippo, but I have a hard time seeing how a poke with only two weaknesses (one being 4x admittedly), two immunities, status immunity, passive and immediate health regeneration and a Df stat of 125 to be considered "not bulky". Not to mention being kind of fast for a wall Roosting gives you your Rock resistance and brings Ice down to x2, then of course there's Sub+Protect.

But hey, I'm not the Stall guy. I'm semi-stall and bulky offense primarily.

I don't think anyone would deny that Gliscor is bulky on the physical side, but bulk doesn't necessarily mean the best stalling potential. He can definitely fit into semi-stall and bulky offense (as I'm sure you're aware,) with the greatest of ease though. In those teams he thrives.

As others have said, Gliscor's stalling issues mainly come from his mediocre special bulk (most neutral hits leave a huge dent in him, and powerful neutral hits can take him down really fast,) and exploitable weaknesses (what respectable non-stall team doesn't run at least one ice-type or water-type move?) He does have some great traits for stall, but I don't think they make him worth using over something like Hippowdon.

 

[SansNickel]

I actually encountered Ditto when playing against a high-ranked stall team. It's pretty nice to have against offensive teams, though it's dead weight against opposing stall teams.

Yeah it is, but stall in general should always be prepared for opposing stall (whereas stall can't always prepare for every single offensive threat). But ditto is amazing...

 

[Yuttt]

I am using a pokemon on my stall team which I will hopefully RMT soon that is a new idea. Due (at least partially) to the nerf to SR, Fire- and Flying-types are much more common in this meta (ZardX, Talonflame, etc), and big threats to stall teams. I run Rhyperior to cover these things, as it has 115/130 physical bulk along with Solid Rock. It is one of the best answers to ZardX, Talonflame, Bisharp (as long as iron head doesn't flinch ;~;), Fire punch D-nite, and more. It also has 140 Atk, which, with it's STAB Edgequake, will do a bunch to most pokemon. SR is always nice to have as well. The first main issue are its 4x weaknesses and pitiful SpD, but that's what teammates are for. The second one is its lack of reliable recovery, forcing me to use Rest.

Speaking of which, Resttalk (rest+Sleep talk) got a huge buff this gen, as sleep was reverted to gen4 mechanics. This means your sleep counter does NOT reset every time you switch out! Now, Resttalk can be used on many things that previously had no source of reliable recovery, such as Gyarados. However, be careful with using this too much, as it uses up 2 moveslots, which can be a nuisance. (rest is also good for PP Stall >_>)

 

[shack]

Stall is rather unique in that it's really, really hard to just throw "stallers" on a team and just play with it. Like Ajwf said, it's really about the synergy.

As a basic outline, you're going to want at least 4 walls—those classic defensive Pokemon with high defensive stats and/or really good defensive typings. It's generally better to go for more specialized walls—walls that either focus on physical defense or special defense—than find mixed walls, since not a lot of threats are able to go mixed. Even so, having a single mixed wall such as Jellicent or M-Venusaur is still helpful against stuff like MixApe and MixMence. As for a database, here are the following stall pokes I've found to be good from personal experience:

Physical Walls

Hippowdon
Skarmory
Mandibuzz
Tangrowth
Slowbro
M-Aggron
M-Venusaur
Celebi
M-Scizor
Ferrothorn
Forretress
Gliscor

Special Walls

Blissey
Chansey
Slowking
Jellicent
Latias
Heatran
Cradily (in sand)
Tyranitar (in sand)

Mixed Walls

Jellicent
Mandibuzz
M-Venusaur
Slowbro w/ Assault Vest
Tangrowth w/ Assault Vest
Togekiss
Ferrothorn
Escavalier
Rhydon w/ Eviolite
Gligar w/ Eviolite

Utilities/Clerics

Forretress
Togekiss
Chansey
Blissey
Latias
Celebi
Mandibuzz
Skarmory
Golbat w/ Eviolite

Hopefully that helps somewhat. Again, it's not enough to simply "pick and choose" from this list, as a lot more than that goes into the construction of a stall team (which is, in all honesty, the hardest thing about stall imo.) But, of course, it's definitely rewarding when well done. Also, never yourself to this list. There are a lot of pokemon out there that can stall, given the right conditions.

Thanks, this is what I was looking for. I know every thing is based on your team. But I think it would help to have a list of viable pokemon that you can choose from. That way if your team needs a physical wall, you can reference the list to see what options you have. It doesn't need in depth explanations of each pokemon unless they are a wall because of a specific set or reason outside of stats like Assult Vest Goodra or Furfrou with Fur Coat and Baby Doll Eyes. I'm assuming that this is just a quick basic list since I didn't see Vaporeon, Avalugg or a few others.

Thanks, this helps and is a good start for me to reference for replacement pokemon on my team.

 

[Frisodium]

I would add gourgheist and tentacruel to that list. I run both of them in a non stall team, but they're a really great duo and I think they should be mentioned.

Gourgheist-Super in particular is a really powerful check to many phisical traits for different reasons, including Breelom (The only thing he can do to the undead eggplant is rock tomb), physical megalucario (once again, the best he can throw to gour are bullet punch and crunch, the first does a pity damage and the last is easily tanked), megakangaskhan lacking crunch (and even if he has, he's still able to resist enougth to will-o-wisp that monster), excadrill lacking shadow claw (wich are majority), azumarill, diggesrby, scizor, terrakion, garchomp and even gyarados, among many others. She can't be trapped, she can recover her HP with pain split, leftovers and leech seed. Is immune to returns, close combats and he can sponge earthquakes all day and nigth. Is also immune to spore, leech seed and sleep powder. Shadow force is truly useful for accumulating passive damage and recovering (and also hits quite hard to certain switch-ins, like aegislash (With the benefit that bypasses king's shield) and leaves her with something to do if she's taunted. I truly believe she's a great phisical wall designed to spread status (specially burns) and leech seeds, able to resist even super effective hits and responding with a nice burning present.

Tentacruel of course will miss the extra recovering from rain dish, but he has two other interesting abilities in liquid ooze and clear body. In the defog, and with excadrill out of his uber cage we may think that there's no room for traditional spinners, but I don't think all is over for the good old jelly-krakken. He's surprisingly fast for a bulky pokèmon, and his type combination is better than ever (thanks to the fairy type). He has a decent special attack, wich allows him to abuse scald and sludge bomb, and of course access to the nice toxic spikes. Knock-off is a nice addition, too. Also, since he uses black sludge, you'll surprised to see how many times Rotom-W has tricked me his scarf or specs only to "poison" itself with the sludge. Moreover, with its decent speed and special attack, recieving a choice item isn't as terrible as it is for many other stall mons, since you'll be able then to abuse scald more efficiently.

Tentacruel is able to tank fire and ice attacks aimed to gourgheist, as well as many shadow balls and dark pulses, and gourgheist can ignore any earthquake that otherways would kill the angry jelly fish (My team has also a hydreigon, wich is a perfect partner for tentacruel, being immune to ground and psichic attacks and resisting electric; while tentacruel covers all the hydra weaknesses bar dragon). Gourgheist would also be an amazing partner for heatran, as she resist ground and water, and is immune to fighting attacks. Sames goes for tyranitar (resists water, grass, ground and fighting, while tyranitar resists dark, fire and ghosts attacks) or the pink blobs.

Trevenant is another option, of course, but while he has more "offensive stalling power" with sitrus-curse sets, I find him more fragile and gimmicky than gourgheist.

 

[Nysyr]

I think right now for stall if you don't have at least 2 of: Mega Venu, Chans/Bliss, and Quagsire, you are doing it wrong.

Quaggy is absolutely needed to not get destroyed by Bisharp right now. Its about the only thing that can switch into a +2 attack from LO bisharp and live the second hit. Lefties will suck to lose, but its better than being swept by a knockoff bisharp. Mega Venu can kinda check bisharp if you haven't slept something.

 

[Yuttt]

I think right now for stall if you don't have at least 2 of: Mega Venu, Chans/Bliss, and Quagsire, you are doing it wrong.

Quaggy is absolutely needed to not get destroyed by Bisharp right now. Its about the only thing that can switch into a +2 attack from LO bisharp and live the second hit. Lefties will suck to lose, but its better than being swept by a knockoff bisharp. Mega Venu can kinda check bisharp if you haven't slept something.

Chansey and Blissey, I agree, are nearly mandatory for stall teams, but I think there be ways to get around that. I'm working on it.

Mega Venusaur is most definitely NOT a requirement, it is just a great pokemon that is capable of fulfilling many roles on the team.

Quagsire you say is needed because it beats Bisharp, but I think Rhyperior isn't 2HKOd by it, and can OHKO in return. Unfortunately, you can lose to an Iron Head flinch, and are susceptible to being worn down. I will only prepare for it being +2 and I'm already in, as I plan to switch in counters as soon as the pokemon is on the field, giving them only 1 free turn. Chesnaught also barely avoids the 2HKO at +2 by Iron Head by using lefties+Spiky Shield, and can OHKO in return with Hammer Arm. However, Chesnaught is prone to being worn down, with only lefties and leech seed for recovery.

Basically, those pokemon can be nice to have, but not completely mandatory. Bisharp is a huge threat to stall teams now, due to the huge buff to Kock off and dark moves in general.