Other Stall

[Ajwf]

Because issues I generally run special Arc. As for Zard, please find me something that works well and then tell me about how weak it is. ZardX has nothing that switches in well. There is, to be honest, one true CharizardX counter and that's Gyarados(-m). Any way I put this, I have to play around it. Generally, I can expect DD roost to not have EQ, so non-issue. DD+3, I'll check down with arc, take the hit and check again with Blastoise who can take the hit and head for a KO. Ugly, yes, but I do have potential to pick it off by sub Chesnaught or drawing a recoil bomb vs Skarm and foddering chansey instead. Also where are you getting no defense? The calcs look more like this if you actually paid attention:

-1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 134-158 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 200-236 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

88 SpA Arcanine Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 154-182 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
88 SpA Arcanine Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 154-182 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

While how it fares vs Bisharp is irrelevant (Chesnaught+Skarm w/o defog+Blastoise-m w/aura sphere), here's the more realistic calcs.

88 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 284-336 (101.7 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 16 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 136-161 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Way more accurate as my spread is to outspeed jolly bisharp.

Lando w/knock off is easy. It does roughly 20% max to Blastoise.

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 64-75 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO

So yeah, not too worried as Blastoise becomes my go-to as soon as I figure I can draw a decent attack to get in on.

Edit: For opposing stall, I've only played the one non-standard far earlier. Basically sub chesnaught forces multiple turns of free rage. Burn support + chesnaught pressuring chansey will wear down opponent mega venus fast, and Scizor takes a role as a pivot and does have knock off. I only have taunt on skarm, but that makes three mons Chansey dislikes. I'll have to look deeper but I never try countering stall when I make teams since I feel I can beat stall on sheer set knowledge and a bit of obvious prediction (based off trends long into the game).

 

[jbtc10]

Scald is better than Water Pulse AJ. Without it, you can enjoy giving Azumaril and Chesnaut a free switch in every time... Water Pulse still isn't good enough to use because it's the same as using Surf over Scald, except with a 20% confusion chance. The confusion is nice, but nowhere near as devastating (or frequent) as a burn, which completely cripples both Azu (most importantly), Chesnaut and any other physical attackers, and the residual damage is also much appreciated against things like Keldeo and Rotom. Good to see you finally giving a spinner a try as well, I've been trying to get you to do that for ages now, and MB is easily the best one.

Also, do you think it's that important for Arcanine to be able to outspeed Jolly Bisharp? Most are Adamant, and you've already got other good counters to him (Mega Blastoise is great for that, takes little from KO and Iron Head and KO's with AS). I think the biggest selling point of Arcanine is being arguably the best counter to Mega Mawile (Moltress hates rocks too much), and even in that match-up you still need all the bulk you can get in case they carry Focus Punch which they often do.

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 16 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 171-202 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously this means that after rocks, even a slight amount of prior damage on Arc (roughly 15% is all that's needed) could cause him to bite the dust to Sub-Punch, and he can't outpace the damage from Focus Punch consistently with Morning Sun even if he still has Lefties (which he won't always because Knock Off is a bitch).

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 171-202 (46 - 54.4%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is what the Calc looks like if you instead only invest to outspeed Adamant Bisharp (only 56 EV's required for that, instead of basically needing to sell your soul). So yeah, it handles Mawile a ton better which in my opinion should be the main focus of any Arcanine right now.

 

[kirant]

Scald is better than Water Pulse AJ. Without it, you can enjoy giving Azumaril and Chesnaut a free switch in every time... Water Pulse still isn't good enough to use because it's the same as using Surf over Scald, except with a 20% confusion chance. The confusion is nice, but nowhere near as devastating (or frequent) as a burn, which completely cripples both Azu (most importantly), Chesnaut and any other physical attackers, and the residual damage is also much appreciated against things like Keldeo and Rotom.

Scald is probably Stall's favourite water attack as a whole. 30% translates to approximately 50/50 odds over 2 attacks of causing burn (hence so many players complaining that Scald is an instant burn). Water Pulse, while really nice with Mega Launcher, is 36% chance of activating over the same attack number. And burn in my books almost always beats out confusion because of the attack reduction for so many key physical attackers. This opens up more checking and countering options down the road should they not find a way to remove it.

 

[Clair]

There is, to be honest, one true CharizardX counter and that's Gyarados(-m).

This statement just isn't true at all. There are quite a few solid counters to Char-X, and a couple of them are much better at the job than Gyarados. Then you have a whole bunch of checks which can be used in conjunction to reliably handle it. Let's just run through a list of the best and most common answers to Zard:

Gyarados: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 240-283 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Dragon Claw would do 40.7-48%, which is just about enough to 2HKO after SR and two turns of Lefties. In return, uninvested Gyarados doesn't even get a guaranteed 3HKO with Waterfall. Even 252+ M-Gyarados needs SR to OHKO Char-X with Earthquake, and that's assuming it isn't the more common bulky set. The biggest consideration in this matchup, however, is Gyara's SR weakness, which just makes it untenable imo as a team's only Char-X counter.

Quagsire: 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Quagsire is the most common Char-X counter on stall, because most of them run Dragon Claw, but even then you are liable to be 2HKO'd with residual damage. Risking losing your counter to an Outrage is also pretty horrible. On top of that, Quag has zero offensive presence, and is forced to Recover to be able to switch into Zard next time, giving the opponent a free switch. In general, though, it's a solid answer to Zard as long as it isn't allowed to switch in regularly - and it's worth noting that it can handle the rare SD or BD Zard, which destroy all other defensive checks.

Alomomola: +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Alomo looks good at first glance, but a tiny bit of leftover residual damage will see it being 2HKO'd with +1 Dragon Claw or unboosted Outrage. In return, the best it can do is Toxic and then stall with Protect and switches into a Fairy/Steel. ***Slowbro is in pretty much the same boat, but is usually 2HKO'd by +1 Dragon Claw, in return for access to Thunder Wave and being able to knock ~40% off offensive Zard with a STAB.

Swampert: +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 331-391 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Swampert's actually a pretty good mon in this meta, with its Water typing giving it a major niche over Hippowdon, it's just typically outclassed by Quag. It makes a pretty good check to Zard too, being able to OHKO offensive variants with Earthquake and SR. Vulnerability to being 2HKO'd, and subsequent pressure on the rest of the team to keep it healthy, means it needs to be paired with another Zard check though.

Rhyperior: +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 171-202 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. To my mind the most underrated defensive mon in the meta right now, being a solid counter to both Zard and M-Pinsir, although teambuilding around it can be difficult. Solid Rock means Dragon Claw actually outdamages Earthquake against it, and doesn't come close to a 2HKO at +1. Rhyperior OHKO's offensive variants with either EQ or Stone Edge, and always OHKO's defensive variants after SR. On top of this, it has a base 140 attack stat and QuakeEdge coverage, along with SR, letting it do a lot with the free turns it generates. ***You can also use Eviolite Rhydon, which has a fair bit more physical bulk. However, the lack of Solid Rock and lack of Lefties make it generally inferior.

M-Tyranitar: +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. In return of course Stone Edge OHKO's. M-Tar is similar to Rhyperior, although it's a worse counter to Zard thanks to its vulnerability to residual damage and slightly worse physical defense. If you have a free Mega slot and also need M-Tar's special defense and Pursuit-trapping, it's a good choice, although on full stall it needs a backup Zard check. ***There are a few similar options like Regirock, but they're generally inferior and not worth mentioning.

Lando-T: -1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I tend not to like Lando as a primary Zard-X counter. Zard typically comes in against Fire-weaks, meaning it can wear Lando down with Flare Blitz with no prediction needed. Lando also tends to take a bit of residual damage, and lacks recovery, but its still a strong answer to Zard. EQ will OHKO all Zard after SR, and it also has U-turn / Knock Off / SR to keep momentum. Hippowdon / Gliscor are similar, but both are potentially 2HKO'd switching into Flare Blitz, and both have weaker EQ's, making them backup checks at best.

Overall, I would rank the top defensive counters to Zard as follows:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

Of these, only Rhyperior should be considered a perfect counter to DD Zard-X, since it can never be 2HKO'd at +1 by Dragon Claw / Earthquake, and is difficult to wear down. On full stall, e.g. a team without sufficient offensive pressure, all other Zard-X counters/checks (with the possible exception of Quagsire) should be supplemented with another or a revenge killer.

 

[jbtc10]

Mandibuzz can also act as a DD Char-X check/counter.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 199-235 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dragon Claw won't be 2HKO'ing Mandi most of the time, so it has to use Flare Blitz, which after recoil, lets Mandibuzz kill it with Foul Play:

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 300-354 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 234-276 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if rocks are up on your side, Mandi can still take the +1 Flare Blitz most of the time as long as you were at full health when you switched in, since you'll be at 81.25% when Zard tries to attack. Foul Play also actually does more damage than non-invested EQ's from bulky ground types like Quaggy and Swampert. It's not the most reliable way of dealing with it, but I'd still rather use Mandibuzz for the role over something like Swampert because Mandi is way better overall and unlike Lando and Gyara, it has reliable recovery so it can maintain it's own HP throughout the game to ensure it can answer to Zard-X later when it needs to.

 

[Ajwf]

This statement just isn't true at all. There are quite a few solid counters to Char-X, and a couple of them are much better at the job than Gyarados. Then you have a whole bunch of checks which can be used in conjunction to reliably handle it. Let's just run through a list of the best and most common answers to Zard:

So you're basically telling me all of them (because EQ does 2hko Rhyperior) are 2hko'd. All of them are outsped as well, so this signals to me that they're all checks (counters can take any set and wall + beat the poke). The lando calc was unfair when you look at the Gyara calc (Gyara gets a -1 if Lando does) and Gyara countering Zard HAS to run EQ. The inconsistent use of Dragon Claw vs Outrage causes it to appear like Alomomola can be 3hko'd when by outrage it is easily 2hkod. Swampert almost dies (though I do run him as a check on my other team, but he's also spdef so not taking Outrage).

The fact that you only mentioned Slowbro means you forgot his movepool. Slowbro comes with access to foul play so he, as a check, is the best one to have. The issue is, you have to let Zard set up and fodder something off for Bro to work.

In BCS for Gyara (Dclaw and attack off the bat, generally happens when coming in against something like Chesnaught that does have EQ)

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 106-126 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

If bulky, I need rocks. If not, I can 2hko. Of course, often enough this is also a mega Gyarados so I can decide to mega if needed... The non-megas are always resttalk, so it can be a gamble.

0 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 160-190 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Regardless, ZardX to me is the mon needing suspected the most, more so than Landorus. By now, Landorus counters are kinda easy. You get a flying type with good Spdef or a psychic with levitate. Balloon Aegislash, if you're good at maintaining the balloon, can check it. But with Zard... As can be seen, we just don't have a bonafide answer. In play, I generally just rely on my understanding that Zardx is a fucking threat, get rocks up as fast as possible and then make sure I have something in that isn't my general check/counter but can deal some damage if it comes in.

 

[Clair]

So you're basically telling me all of them (because EQ does 2hko Rhyperior) are 2hko'd.

252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 109-129 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

You were saying?

Re Lando vs Gyara; Lando will often switch into Flare Blitz, because it's Char-X's best way to wear it down. Again Gyarados, the Char-X user knows he can DD and come out on top, which is why the calc I used was most relevant. They're both Intimidate-abusing physical walls, that doesn't mean they face the same situations in gameplay.

Even with Earthquake, Gyara still only just survives vs Char-X - and this is assuming it starts with max HP, and that Char-X doesn't carry Outrage. If its switched into SR, it's done. If it's taken any prior damage, it's done. I stand by what I said earlier. It's very shaky, and so far from being the "one true Char-X counter" that it's hilarious.

 

[Ajwf]

+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 214-253 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Weren't we giving it a free DD? Yeah, Rhyperior can win this... But the issue becomes that Rhyperior doesn't win much else. It can take Mega Pinsir (Kinda sorta) and Zardx but then you have a pokemon with one of the worst defensive typings in the game, 4x weak to water, 4x weak to grass, 2x weak to ground. It isn't that it
its absolutely not practical, the weaknesses make it hard to justify and cover.

If Gyara needs to rest on incoming, that's fine. It can still work resttalk on that. My mega sets are a bit different but assuming that I hadn't mega Evolved and he made the generally accepted "Correct play" to ddance

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Mega Gyarados: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 192-228 (64.4 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 doesn't matter :/

 

[Agent Gibbs]

No offense or anything, but that Arcanine set looks terrible, lol. It doesn't even beat Charizard X for the most part. Outrage and Earthquake variants just tank the Dragon Pulse and 2HKO. Even Dragon Claw variants have a 52.3% chance to 2HKO, so that's still a tossup. Bulky DD sets with Roost are rarely ever 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse, so they can actually set up on Arcanine provided you don't get lucky with critical hits and high damage rolls. Even specially defensive sets win 1-on-1 since they can force you to burn through Morning Sun PP in order to stay alive, while Charizard takes less damage and has more PP with Roost. If you really want a Charizard X check, why don't you just use something like Heatran or Quagsire? Heatran still loses to Earthquake variants, but at least it has a shot at beating Outrage versions by stalling for Leftovers recovery with Protect and maybe even forcing Charizard into confusion if it rolled a 2 turn Outrage. It also easily survives 2 Dragon Claws, so it beats those variants without having to go for a coinflip. Quagsire still loses to Outrage variants, but they're pretty uncommon, and it curbstomps other variants. Heck, if you're so confident about physically defensive Gyarados, then run that.

I also think you're underestimating physically defensive Rhyperior. Yeah, it has a ton of weaknesses and is pretty niche, but it checks a ton of physical attackers on its own. For example, it can switch directly into Swords Dance Aegislash, Swords Dance Bisharp, Dragon Dance Charizard X, Dragon Dance Dragonite, Swords Dance Garchomp (depending on the item), non-Adamant + LO Mamoswine, Swords Dance Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Defiant Thundurus, and Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar and either win 1-on-1 or at least do a ton of damage and weaken them so that something else can pick them off. It can also take unboosted super effective STAB attacks from Pokemon such as Excadrill, Landorus-T, and Terrakion before KOing back.

Honestly, there are several other things that you could use that could handle Mega Charizard X without having to resort to such a gimmicky Arcanine set that can't even consistently beat the biggest threat you want it to beat. Is there any other real reason that you're using Arcanine instead of any other check to Charizard X?

 

[Clair]

I had a couple of paragraphs here, but Gibbs stole everything I was going to say and made it sound better :(

 

[Ajwf]

Yeah, fire type coverage.

Obviously I'm not done with that team (I think I mentioned it was 4 days old) but I'm out of space for waters, can't afford to add serious weaknesses to Keldeo and am a tad stuck with fighting types having no resists on that team. I could go back towards 180 hp (Speed investment is high) if Bisharp is as much as a nonfactor as I believe it to be.

And to be honest, flat out losing to EQ variants is the last thing I want. Quagsire might work due to two initial grass resists (Scizor/Ches) but then you're down that fire coverage.

I was checking on Volcanion to see if it would do better... Air balloon might, but if you come in on DD, seems to be no dice as well..

 

[Tactical]

After a bit of calculation, I think Slowbro is actually the most effective Charizard X counter one can come by. A combination of sufficient bulk, Thunder Wave, and Regenerator gives SlowBro more mileage to not only counter CharX, but retain its ability to counter its designated target even after coming into the field of battle multiple times.

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Disable
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off

Would be the general set I would suggest as the most pragmatic Charizard X counter.

Slowbro is sufficiently durable to be able to survive common attacks a Charizard X set could throw at it, even under the consideration of stealth rock. Even if your opponent is completely expecting the set they have a margin of error of .0025% health they have to roll for on two separate damage rolls, plus paralysis chance, to remove Slowbro before he renders them harmless. Obviously things tip more in your favor if you can manage to keep rocks off the field, and become much worse with rocks and two or more layers of spikes up.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) 85.8 - 99.35% hp with stealth rock.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%)
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 121-143 (30.7 - 36.2%) 85.85% - 100.25% after stealth rocks and one turn of leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) Always 2hko (unfortunate, but if they swing blind with an outrage out of the gate you can just swap out with 74.35% - 65.65% health left into your designated steel or fairy type)

After these initial turns you trade their blow with a Thunder Wave then follow it with a Disable to remove their stab attack of choice. From that point forward Charizard X is rendered relatively helpless and is greatly crippled by paralysis for the remainder of the match, save Heal Bell support, and Slowbro can slackoff at its leisure.

This should be what the usual first interactions between Slowbro and CharX look like. Thankfully, unlike most other CharX counters that wear down completely after their first or second check against the black dragon, access to Regenerator allows for Slowbro to be in acceptable ranges of health to perform his counter role after multiple switch-ins. Given the majority of possible combat scenarios Slowbro should consistently be leaving combat with Charizard X at 87% health at absolute lowest after performing a successful Thunder Wave.

Most notably is near immunity to Stealth Rocks and Spikes damage whittling down Slowbro's health. Counters like Quagsire lose a turn and precious Recover PP to maintain themselves at the near peak levels they must be at to threaten Char X. Slowbro maintains itself for free, at no additional loss of momentum to you. Even if CharX throws out a Dragon Claw at every opportunity on Slowbro's switching in, with stealth rock damage that only comes out to 8.95 - 16.05% per iteration, giving Slowbro a free Scald, Twave, or Slack-Off on the next target that comes into play.

Lastly, while not the best thing ever for Slowbro to run generally, the combination of Thunderwave and Disable can be similarly effective against other likewise threats and are not generally wasted move slots in situations outside of directly countering Charizard X. While less useful generally, if you feel this set does not have a good enough handle for bulky roost variants you can substitute Foul Play in place of Scald for a 2hko at +1 or +2. An alteration on the above build can be substituted for more overall utility, but sacrifices its ability to counter Outrage variants to more sufficiently threaten Bulky variants and other, more general threats.

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Foul Play
- Iron Defense
- Slack Off

 

[jbtc10]

Slowbro does have some issues though; he gets 2HKO'd if they have Outrage and go for it right off the bat. You could switch into your steel if you can after the first hit, but then Bro loses his ability to counter Zard next time and will die to a +1 hit. Also, if they're running 252 speed, Slowbro actually doesn't outspeed a +1 Zard even after a T-Wave because he's just that naturally slow. In that case, you're basically sacking a poke just to get off a T-Wave, and you still have a +1 threat at full health to deal with which can probably dent pretty badly whatever comes in next. I'd still say Rhyperior is the best counter at the moment because he can avoid the Outrage 2HKO and can actually KO straight back with EQ.

 

[Tactical]

Huh, it really is that impressively slow.

Still, the base premise still functions with a shift from "absolutely impossible to die" to "statistically improbable to die" for Dragon Claw variants and a 75% success rate against Outrage sets with a small ev tweak.
EVs: 212 Def / 228 HP / 68 Spe

Alternatively the Iron Defense set works fine as is against non-Outrage variants.

Overall not as efficient as anticipated, but that's what I get for crunching numbers instead of doing live testing.

My only issue with Rhypherior is, if the Charizard X does anything not named Outrage, then Rhyperior just gets worn down and has no natural recovery.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

1. Is Char-X, Amoonguss, and Quagsire still the best stall core?
2. Best stall destroyer that actually has some use against offensive teams?

 

[Ajwf]

2. I still think is Lando. ZardX is really good but I think it can't devote itself to get offense if it goes full stall breaker.

As for one, I haven't seen it at all... It sounds pretty good outside landorus, but I think Dice made a team with AV torn-T+Amoongus so that could be an added part.


I've tested two teams recently, one is that blastoise team (made adjustments so now I just check down ZardX with trickscarf Lati... Don't laugh, it's actually an incredibly passable stall breaker). The second team is an aero-mega team. I'm still working on EV spread (Right now I barely have any defense to outpace pinsir-m base and outpace Noivern (coincidental) mega. I'm trying to get some more defense, but he has some pretty decent innate defense.

The moves are roost/ice fang (can you imagine how nice it is to instant-kill all landorus sets?)/Rock slide and Crunch. I'm considering replacing crunch for EQ or taunt to give me heatran coverage.

Having worked on the core, the main part is Amoongus/Sylveon/Quagsire/Heatran. It's a lighter core than the old SkarmBlissVenuTran but still does work. I also use latias again... For which I'm still debating whether I need roost or if sylveon is enough and healing wish is more beneficial. So far, healing wish has gotten me past a rain team with sub punch mawile.


Speaking of healing wish, I've been using it a lot recently on stall. I spoke sometime earlier about how cool it would be and it saved my ass in an OU room tournament recently (damn you Valentine for killing me in finals). I had healing wish latias and a very low health aegislash. I was facing a Heracross that lacked EQ. It had torn two mons at this point (chesnaught and skarmory took a ton of damage switching in on other occasions) and Yuttt was ghosting the fuck out of this kid.

Long story short, Latias got the check after Chesnaught died. Healing wish saved me from being swept (had chansey, aegi and Lati at that point) and Aegi punched through his two remaining mons. It's also a nice way to avoid bisharp's pursuit traps, so there's that.

 

[chive]

Yeah I usually run Healing Wish on my Latias, it's just so nice and can really turn a game around. Especially if your mon is so weak it would die to hazards and your opponent has already kinda written it off in his head, so he may play riskier with his checks/counters to it, so when it comes back in after Healing Wish, it can put it some work.

 

[Yuttt]

I gave up ghosting after he choked

 

[Alejandro36]

I know the Gothitelle question has been asked before, but seriously, how on earth do you deal with her when she is backed up by a volt turn core to bring her in? Typical scenarios:

You send MegaVenu on Rotom. It volt switches right into Gothitelle who kills you with psychich. Azumarill now rapes your team (ok, you are not a very good player if you risk Venu like that when the oponent has both Azumarill and Gothitelle, but still...)

You send chansey on Manetric as it volt switches into Gothitelle. Enjoy your scarfed chansey.

You send skarm as scizor u turns. Gothitelle kills it with thunderbolt and now Pinsir kills everyone.

That on top of the fact that the oponent can also bait and send her on a double switch. Thank God is not very popular becauseof how meh it does against offensive teams.

 

[Ajwf]

Pursuit trap scizor/aegi/krookodile/TTar.

Seriously, you're asking to get wrecked by a trapper turn core if you don't run those... unless you think you can make plays on it. Adding countermeasures like Sleep Powder Venu (spore amoongus) is rather helpful, as well. Ghosts/darks on team give less opportunities, and even AV TornT's uturn helps a lot.

 

[Emmy2]

I know the Gothitelle question has been asked before, but seriously, how on earth do you deal with her when she is backed up by a volt turn core to bring her in? Typical scenarios:

You send MegaVenu on Rotom. It volt switches right into Gothitelle who kills you with psychich. Azumarill now rapes your team (ok, you are not a very good player if you risk Venu like that when the oponent has both Azumarill and Gothitelle, but still...)

You send chansey on Manetric as it volt switches into Gothitelle. Enjoy your scarfed chansey.

You send skarm as scizor u turns. Gothitelle kills it with thunderbolt and now Pinsir kills everyone.

That on top of the fact that the oponent can also bait and send her on a double switch. Thank God is not very popular becauseof how meh it does against offensive teams.

Thankfully it's not very common, but it helps if you're running your own volt turn core on a stall team. Sometimes it's unavoidable losing a poke to a trapper, and usually takes a lot more prediction getting around them with a stall team than offense. Using Ditto helps a lot in the scenario you just described, where they removed your counter to a dangerous setup sweeper. Goth/Mag killed your Skarm and they have a Pinsir waiting in the background? Thankfully Pinsir is weak to his own attacks and dies to one Quick Attack after one boost or a small bit of prior damage. Also, having a volt turn core can get Ditto in with no sacs required, if you play it right.

 

[jbtc10]

Put a Shed Shell on Skarm and switch into Krook to take the T-Bolt, then Pursuit.

 

[azureleaf17]

Anyone tried Mega Gardevoir on stall?

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
ability: Trace / Synchronize (Pixilate)
IVs: 0 Atk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
nature: Bold
- Will-o-wisp
- Wish
- Protect
- Hyper Voice

This set messes with a lot of people expecting a more offensive variant, but it maintains good power because of STAB Pixilate Hyper Voice coming off base 165 Special Attack, which hits 366 when uninvested. Hyper Voice also goes through Substitute, which can be a problem for a lot of stall teams. Will-o-wisp helps with its mediocre Defense, and Wish + Protect gives recovery as well as some support (though fully invested base 68 HP still doesn't heal a lot for bulkier mons). It tanks hits surprisingly well, but the biggest problem I've found is its lack of resistances - outside of Dragon, Psychic, and Fighting, it doesn't really contribute much in terms of defensive synergy. But because these three attacking types are fairly common, it might be worth it to test this set with your team.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

Anyone tried Mega Gardevoir on stall?

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
ability: Trace / Synchronize (Pixilate)
IVs: 0 Atk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
nature: Bold
- Will-o-wisp
- Wish
- Protect
- Hyper Voice

I mean, it sounds interesting, but besides the will-o-wisp (and perhaps the greater speed) there is no reason to use it over sylveon, which just tanks hits better and has bigger wishes.

 

[Emmy2]

Wish Passing is better done with something that has more HP, especially on stall. Chansey has the best wishes, but if you need something that can also kill things, Sylveon has much better bulk and can hit decently hard for something uninvested. Mega Gardevoir with an offensive set is a decent option though, if you're one of those people who would rather have 1-2 offensive things on a stall team.