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Starmie (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] (GP 2/2)

Sir said:
They're not even close to the same set.
  1. one focuses on supporting the team, while the other focuses on sweeping and hitting hard
  2. the life orb set has just enough power to revenge kill things like Dragonite and Haxorus, while the other set doesnt have enough power
  3. That's about it haha
Click to expand...
Have you considered that bulky Rapid Spin Starmie isn't as viable as it was last gen? Due to the heavy abundance of bulky Scizor and water resists in OU, Starmie needs all the power it can get. Many Pokemon, such as Haxorus and Rotom-W, would love to switch into a weak Starmie, using it as easy momentum fodder. Nowadays, Starmie needs the extra power, if it's to keep up with an offensive team. That being said, it's not as if running Life Orb on the Rapid Spin set is counterproductive, let alone underwhelming. You're asking to create a set, on which, literally one move is being replaced; and said move only possesses the ability to prolong Starmie's life. The reason behind why LO + 3 attacks is so good is because of Starmie's speed, power, and coverage. The Rapid Spin set is more than capable of ripping through more frail and offensive teams, with or without the use of a Life Orb.
 
I agree with Chillarmy - it's pretty silly to make a separate set for LO + 3 Atks, b/c the Rapid Spin set is essentially LO + 3 Atks, lol. Also, Starmie is almost always used for its offensive Rapid Spin support (78% of the Starmie used in December used Rapid Spin, according to Innocent Criminal's metagame analysis), so LO 3 Atks + Recover is merely an offensive mon that lost one major utility.

I would not mention LO 3 Atks + Recover in the Rapid Spin set, since Rapid Spin is indispensable. It is more appropriate in Other Options instead.

Chillarmy - Do the extra HP EVs really come in handy? I've always used 112 HP / 180 Def / 216 Spd on my bulkier Starmie sets. The extra Defense gives Starmie a much easier time switching in against physical attacks, particularly Terrakion's Close Combat and Gliscor's Earthquake. In addition, Starmie can, while switching out, now survive Choice Band Scizor's Pursuit, and laughs at specially defensive Tyranitar's Pursuit. As a bonus, 289 HP is a Leftovers number, which is always. There aren't many notable KOs that Starmie evades with the extra investment into HP, anyway. Weak Scalds, Surfs, and other resisted special attacks are normally accompanied by an attack that will surely beat Starmie (Shadow Ball, Hidden Power, Thunderbolt, or Toxic + Protect; also, let's not forget about Gastrodon and how he lost the fucks he could've given about Starmie in Gen V!).
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of that spread, since it can't even check Tornadus, and again, I'd rather speed-tie other Starmies so it has a chance of taking them on when necessary. Starmie also has low HP and decent Defense / Special Defense - this type of defensive Pokemon usually benefit more by maxing HP before either defenses. If you actually do calcs, max HP Starmie takes physical hits just as well as your set. Your Starmie, however, doesn't take special hits too well (max HP Starmie can comfortably survive a LO TBolt from opposing Starmie for instance). I'll stick with Super Mario Bro's spread.
 
In lieu with the idea of Sunny Day Heatran:
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/heatran

*paraphrasing the paragraph below to suit Starmie and taken from the site*

"Considering the existence, not to mention the popularity, of Drizzle Politoed in OU, the use of Rain Dance Starmie requires some explanation. The actual purpose of this set is to not set up sun for Water-reliant Pokemon (a role Politoed is superior in), but rather reverse the momentum of the match against opposing weather teams and conventional Starmie counters. To explain how this works, consider this: the sight of Politoed usually prompts many opponents into keeping their own Tyranitar, Hippowdon, or Ninetales alive, often leading to time-consuming weather wars. Rain Dance Starmie, however, tends to avoid these types of situations. Without the threat of Politoed, the opponent has little incentive to maintain their automatic weather inducer, and thus, after these Pokemon have been weakened or eliminated, Starmie can instantly turn the battle around in its favor by summoning sun. All things considered, this Starmie is best used on a weatherless team, where it can disguise itself as one of its other sets and fire off powerful Hydro Pumps, with and without rain."


A Rain Dance Starmie should be mentioned as a separate set because it serves a different purpose than support or choice sets:

QC Approvals: PK Gaming

121.png

Starmie

[SET]
name: Rain Dance Starmie
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Recover/ Rapid Spin/ Ice Beam
move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump/ Scald
move 4: Thunder / Psychic/ Thunder-wave
item: Life Orb
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe


Why this deserves to be on-site

  • http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/starmie --> ctrl-f --> "rain dance" --> phrase not found
  • Starmie's great speed and movepool makes it an awesome support mon for weatherless offensive teams, much the same as Deoxys; the on-site sets don't capitalize on this as much as they could.
  • Could make a good secondary rain inducer for Drizzle teams.
  • Comes in late-game to clear a path for Cloyster/Dnite/Volc, etc. by washing away sand, sun (aka +2 spe revenge killers), hail and hazards
  • Speed and resistance to common priority means almost any free turn is a complete clearing of the field.
  • Life Orb + Rain + Thunder means easy 2HKOs on Jellicent, your most common switch-in when your opponent wants to spinblock.
  • http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454642

Additional comments

  • Standard EV spread, Timid of course because speed is always Starmie's highest priority, really no point in any alternate EV spreads
  • Surf vs. Hydro Pump is the standard accuracy/power conundrum; obligatory mention of Scald
  • Thunder is for smacking bulky waters around, but you can also use Thunder Wave to cripple fast switchins
  • Life Orb because this set's priority is not in sticking around, its in clearing a path and providing a free switch-in (and smacking stuff around if prudent)
  • Type-resist berries are options, but you really want LO's power (see calcs below)
  • Change the last two moves according to your needs; Starmie can run TWave or Recover on a mono-attacking set, or Ice Beam (BoltBeam) or Psychic (dual STAB) for alternate coverage

Teammates & Counters

  • Not much can switch in if rain is up, and Starmie's speed often means it'll cleave hp off even water-resists; however, some pokes still wall it even with Hydro Pump and Thunder.
  • Blissey, Chansey, Celebi, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn are your safest bets if you want to wall; none are 2HKO'd or mind a TWave. On the other hand, none are blocking Rain Dance or Rapid Spin (Starmie can't touch Gastro, and Ferro pseudo-blocks)
  • Bulkier grass types can tank a hit and OHKO back
  • Virizion (giga drain), Latias and bulky Nite can recover off damage, but greatly fear TWave
  • Jolteon and Shadow Ball Zam outspeed and OHKO if they don't switch in on a rain-boosted Surf/Hydro Pump
  • Scarfed pokes, especially physically-based ones, usually don't have trouble revenging Starmie
  • Don't ask what your teammates can do for Starmie, ask what it can do for them; any set-up sweeper will appreciate the free turn that comes with Starmie getting revenged by a scarfer, as well as the lack of passive damage switching in and during play (focus sash is cool again!)
  • Sash Cloyster stands out as the ideal partner: weak to SR, an awesome setup move that kills all its special bulk (and therefore wont tank a special hit without a sash), and can even get a power boost out of rain

Calcs (Don't underestimate Rain + LO):

Hydro Pump:
Tyranitar (OU Specially Defensive [Sand Stream]): 50.49 - 59.9% (2HKO after SR) (clean OHKO in rain)
Ninetales (OU Specially Defensive [Drought]): 48.57 - 58.28% (2HKO after SR) (clean OHKO in rain)
Scizor (OU Choice Band): 111.37 - 131.19% (clean OHKO) (Surf OHKOs after SR)
Rotom-W (OU Defensive): 55.76 - 65.79% (clean 2HKO)
Jirachi (OU Specially Defensive): 57.42 - 67.82% (clean 2HKO) (surf has a good chance of 2HKO)
Breloom (OU Bulk Up): 50.93 - 60% (good chance of 2HKO after SR and Poison Heal)
Dragonite (OU Offensive Dragon Dance): 48.91 - 57.58% (2HKO after SR)
Latios (OU Choice): 48.34 - 56.95% (2HKO after SR)​
Thunder:
Jellicent (OU Utility Counter): 67.49 - 79.9% (clean 2HKO)
Tentacruel (OU Toxic Spikes): 67.03 - 79.12% (clean 2HKO)
Rotom-W (OU Choice): 55.37 - 65.28% (clean 2HKO)
Politoed (OU Choice Specs): 87.85 - 104.04% (OHKO after SR)


Logs proving how the set will work:


Battle between X5Dragon - DW and [TBA]WazupGurl started!

Tier: Dream World OU
Mode: Singles
Variation: +12, -20
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Your team: Breloom / Volcarona / Dragonite / Chandelure / Scizor / Starmie
Opponent's team: Genesect / Keldeo / Tyranitar / Breloom / Excadrill / Chandelure

X5Dragon - DW sent out Volcarona!
[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Tyranitar!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!

Start of turn 1!
Volcarona used Quiver Dance!
Volcarona's Sp. Att. rose!
Volcarona's Sp. Def. rose!
Volcarona's Speed rose!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around X5Dragon - DW's team!

The sandstorm rages!
Volcarona is buffeted by the sandstorm!
HiddeN is watching the battle.
APimpNamedSlickback is watching the battle.

Start of turn 2!
Volcarona used Bug Buzz!
It's super effective!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar lost 68% of its health!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar used Payback!
Volcarona lost 205 HP! (65% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
Volcarona is buffeted by the sandstorm!
HiddeN stopped watching the battle.

Start of turn 3!
Volcarona used Bug Buzz!
It's super effective!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar lost 31% of its health!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Tyranitar fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
Volcarona is buffeted by the sandstorm!
[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Excadrill!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill is floating on a balloon!

Start of turn 4!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill used Frustration!
Volcarona lost 50 HP! (16% of its health)
Volcarona fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
X5Dragon - DW sent out Breloom!
Pointed stones dug into Breloom!

Start of turn 5!
[TBA]WazupGurl called Excadrill back!
[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Chandelure!

Breloom used Mach Punch!
It had no effect!

The sandstorm rages!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Breloom is buffeted by the sandstorm!
APimpNamedSlickback stopped watching the battle.

Start of turn 6!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure used Psychic!
It's super effective!
Breloom lost 230 HP! (87% of its health)
Breloom fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure is buffeted by the sandstorm!
X5Dragon - DW sent out Starmie!
Pointed stones dug into Starmie!

Start of turn 7!
[TBA]WazupGurl called Chandelure back!
[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Keldeo!

Starmie used Rain Dance!
It started to rain!

Rain continues to fall!

Start of turn 8!
Starmie used Rapid Spin!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo lost 5% of its health!
Starmie blew away Stealth Rock!
Starmie is hurt by its Life Orb!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo used Surf!
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 153 HP! (58% of its health)

Rain continues to fall!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 9!
Starmie used Psychic!
It's super effective!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo lost 100% of its health!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Keldeo fainted!
Starmie is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!
HiddeN is watching the battle.
[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Breloom!

Odf is watching the battle.

Start of turn 10!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom used Mach Punch!
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 25 HP! (9% of its health)
Starmie fainted!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom is hurt by its Life Orb!

Rain continues to fall!
X5Dragon - DW sent out Nobolite! (Dragonite)

Start of turn 11!
Nobolite used Dragon Dance!
Nobolite's Attack rose!
Nobolite's Speed rose!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom used Spore!
Nobolite fell asleep!
Nobolite ate its Lum Berry!
Nobolite's status cleared!

The rain stopped!

Start of turn 12!
Nobolite used Outrage!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom lost 90% of its health!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Breloom fainted!

[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Genesect!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect's Download activates!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect's Attack rose!

Start of turn 13!
Nobolite used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
[TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect lost 67% of its health!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect used Ice Beam!
It's super effective!
Nobolite lost 216 HP! (66% of its health)

Start of turn 14!
Nobolite used Outrage!
It's not very effective...
[TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect lost 32% of its health!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Genesect fainted!
Nobolite calmed down!
Nobolite became confused!

[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Excadrill!

[TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill is floating on a balloon!

Start of turn 15!
Nobolite is confused!
Nobolite used Fire Punch!
It's super effective!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill lost 100% of its health!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Excadrill fainted!

[TBA]WazupGurl sent out Chandelure!

Start of turn 16!
Nobolite is confused!
Nobolite used Outrage!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure lost 87% of its health!
[TBA]WazupGurl's Chandelure fainted!

X5Dragon - DW won the battle!
X5Dragon - DW: gg
[TBA]WazupGurl: GOOD FUCKING GAME

-------------


​
 
Okey doke. 3 Attacks + LO goes in the OO, then. And I'm not too sure about bulkier spreads, since Starmie just wants to hit hard to revenge kill and spin. Of course, if you have Volcarona, Dragonite, and other SR weak Mons on the same team, you could go with bulk for reliability. A mention would suffice, right?
 
Super Mario Bro said:
Scarfmie is good, guys. Spamming fast rain Surfs is just great late game against weakened offensive teams, and it resists most priority moves. Unlike Choice specs, it can also function as a SUPER fast revenge killer.

It's also good against stall teams, since it can cripple Blissey or *insert annoying wall here* with Trick to make breaking their core much easier. It's just a good toolbox Pokemon and at least deserves a slash with Choice Specs on a "Choice" set...or a new analysis; whatever QC decides to do.
Click to expand...
Just posting to say that this is not an advantage of this set over the Specs set, since the Specs set can do the same.

Also, about the LO set with Recover and 3 attacks. They are different enough, so each of them should have it's separate analysis.

First of all, not all teams want Rapid Spin support, and Starmie is an excellent revenge killer and hard hitter in rain. So many teams would use Starmie not for it's spin support, but for it's ability to cover a wide array of threats, recover lost health and clean late game, which the Rapid Spin set cannot do due to lack of either coverage, or Recover. Honestly i cannot understand why you want to put such a great set to OO, when there are many other sets that are much worse and didn't deserve a main set.

So 3 attacks Starmie + Recover is not main set material but Specs Jelliecnt and Band Ferrothorn are?
 
He was not saying that that was the advantage it had; rather, he was listing the utility of ScarfMie. ScarfMie is a revenge-killer in the strictest sense, while SpecsMie is meant to be a powerhouse, and if worst comes to worst, a revenge-killer. However, revenge-killing is where ScarfMie stands out, while hitting hard is what Specs does.
 
MaestroXXVI said:
Avatar makes the post lol
Btw, how would that work? Is my thread in limbo until this is accepted? Can i ask to merge them?
Click to expand...

No, your thread and this one are entirely separate, since there are two different authors involved. Furthermore, everything here has (more or less) been QC approved before in the past and your set is an entirely new one. So your thread is very much still active. You could ask to merge the threads if you wanted to, but that would mean that you hand over the rights to write the analysis to the OP.

If the revamp is finished first, then it will go on-site, and be followed by your new set when it is finished. However, if your set is finished first, then your thread is moved to uploaded analyses but the set description is simply added to this thread, so that they are all uploaded together (and thus prevent the risk of the set being accidentally overwritten).
 
harsha2014 said:
He was not saying that that was the advantage it had; rather, he was listing the utility of ScarfMie. ScarfMie is a revenge-killer in the strictest sense, while SpecsMie is meant to be a powerhouse, and if worst comes to worst, a revenge-killer. However, revenge-killing is where ScarfMie stands out, while hitting hard is what Specs does.
Click to expand...
Yes but when trying to justify a set's use, you should list it's advantages over similar sets. So what ScarfMie has over SpecsMie, is revenge killing potential and a bit better cleaning potential right?
 
harsha2014 said:
Okey doke. 3 Attacks + LO goes in the OO, then. And I'm not too sure about bulkier spreads, since Starmie just wants to hit hard to revenge kill and spin. Of course, if you have Volcarona, Dragonite, and other SR weak Mons on the same team, you could go with bulk for reliability. A mention would suffice, right?
Click to expand...

Yea, bulky sets relinquishes its ability to effectively dispose Ghost-types in exchange for more dependable bulk to Rapid Spin more often and check Fighting or Fire-types. Starmie still manages to 2HKO LO Gengar with Surf or Lefties Gengar after Rocks, so it can still deal with the #1 spin blocker if it wants to (most people use Scald on defensive Starmie, though).

EDIT - Although there are various defensive EV spreads with less HP and more SpA investment, 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe is as defensive as it gets, so I'll reference it. Perhaps mention that one may reduce the HP investment for more SpA if they desire.
 
I agree with alexwolf and others that LO+3 Attacks should have its own set. This is not a case of MixMence, where Rash and Roost go together, as do Naive and Outrage. The two sets play substantially different. I don't think a set that basically combines them to provide more utility is a good idea at all.

Really, both of these deserve an on-site set more than Specs or Scarf, imo.
 
Hey harsha, after discussing with Pocket and AG, we have some suggestions.

Name the first set Standard and it should look like this:

[SET]
name: Standard
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Rapid Spin / Recover
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Mention Recover + Rapid Spin in AC telling you lose some coverage but can rely more on it to spin.
Mention Expert Belt in AC too since Starmie has very good coverage.

Move Psyshock / Trick to the last slot of Choice Specs.

Remove Power Gem from OO.

EDIT: QC APPROVED 1/3
 
Set looks much better now! I still think that Rapid Spin and 3 attacks + Recover deserve seperate sets, since they play differently, but you can't always get what you want...
 
Still need some minor revisions.

Overview
amazing Speed, decent SpAp
Click to expand...
  • To add on to that, mention how those 2 qualities allow Starmie to be one of the best non-choiced revenge killers out there.
Standard
breaks down Jellicent and Gengar due to Speed and coverage (needs an LO to do so)
Click to expand...
  • Be more specific - needs a LO (or Expert Belt) to 2HKO JELLICENT, Gengar is a 2HKO even with Lefties
Scald is an option for more defensive variants of this set
Click to expand...
  • Mention Super Mario Bro's 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe spread
Tyranitar, Blissey, Chansey, and stuff like that don't worry about Starmie's attacking prowess. The former KOs Starmie
Click to expand...
  • Make sure to note that LO Starmie 2HKOs Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, so it can only revenge-kill.
Choice Specs
  • Mention that Specs Psyshock is useful for an OHKO on Virizion and a 2HKO on Gastrodon
Timid for amazing Speed, but Modest to hit harder. Modest 2HKOs Blissey after SR, but Starmie can't check as many Pokemon with Modest
Click to expand...
  • Make sure to specify that PSYSHOCK 2HKOs Blissey with Modest
  • Entry hazards support is actually worth an AC mention here, since it would really hamper Chansey / Blissey / Ferrothorn's ability to wall this set
Choice Scarf

  • Beats +2 Dragonite (locked into Outrage), Modest Chlorophyll Venusaur, and +2 Cloyster to the punch and KOs them
    Click to expand...
  • Good! Include +2 Gyarados here, too.
Other Options
  • Blizzard on Hail Teams
  • Gravity to aid potentially aid Ground-type / Spike-stacking teams, with the ability to make use of its less accurate yet powerful options, such as Hydro Pump, Thunder, and Blizzard
Checks and Counters
Tyranitar is a check, but it can be KOed by Life Orb, Expert Belt, and Specs sets with Hydro Pump
Click to expand...
  • Be specific here - Tyranitar is 2HKOed by a Hydro Pump from LO / EB / Specs set
Blissey and Chansey can sponge hits except for Specs set
Click to expand...
  • Clarify this - both of them can also sponge hits from Specs set, they just fear Trick.
Scarf Tyranitar and Scizor work well as checks in rain, and CB Scizor can check outside of rain
Click to expand...
  • You forgot Jolteon
  • Just a general reminder to be very thorough, detailed (yet concise), and organized with your Counters and Check section, lest you want it re-written by the Counter project led by twash.

I'll trust that you'll make these changes: QC Approved (3/3)
 
Thanks Pocket! I'll fix these in the write-up and make sure to look at this while writing (easier than editing the skeleton I'll delete anyways). Well, here goes!
 
Sorry about the bump, but could someone look over the first set to see if I formatted it correctly? I'm not looking for a GP, I just want to know if I have the correct things in each paragraph.
 
The first set comments are fantastically written (in fact, what you've written so far is fantastic already), meaning you didn't just explain all of the moves monotonously unlike other analyses, and the format looks just right. Be sure to replace all curly apostrophes and change the statement about Grass Knot versus Gastrodon; Hidden Power Grass hits them both harder.
 
Oh, I'll fix that statement. And I will fix the apostrophes on another computer since this one insists on using the curly ones. Thanks AG!
 
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