RL is right about the value of STAB coverage on a Choice Specs user. With the power of Choice Specs, it's a viable strategy to use moves that have a STAB boost always, rather than those that have a SE boost sometimes. Pretty much everything that sets up on Psychic is also going to set up on Ice Beam, so that isn't really that relevant. Using great two-move coverage instead of three moves for coverage reduces the amount of prediction required, and makes many of your predictions safer (each move gets a wider range of enemies), meaning that you will mispredict as much, and will more reliably win more matches. Psychic at least deserves a slash on the Specs set. It could just say something like "psychic is an option if you want better STAB coverage."
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Starmie (Update)
- Thread starter whistle
- Start date
Alright, let me reiterate what Aldaron said (since you guys seem to have ignored / not understood it). You use your STAB water move to hit everything except other water or grass Pokemon. If you expect your opponent to switch to a water Pokemon, you should use Thunderbolt instead of Psychic, because you will be hitting it harder. As for grass Pokemon, the only commonly seen one other than Breloom (who is 2HKOed by a Specs STAB water attack anyways from Starmie) is Celebi, who ALSO resists Psychic. There is NO point is using Psychic, except for ridiculously obscure situations, like last Pokemon Specs Starmie vs. low HP Suicune + mid-health non-scarf Flygon. Rare obscure situations like that are NOT worth putting Psychic on the analysis.
Also, why does combination type coverage matter on a CHOICED Pokemon? You can't switch your move, so you're stuck predicting to begin with anyways. In that case, you're better off either predicting: non-water (use water attack) or water (use Thunderbolt). Ice Beam if you expect Celebi, but I personally prefer the moveset: Hydro Pump / Surf, Thunderbolt, Rapid Spin, Trick on the Specs set. Having a STAB attack for the sake of having STAB is ridiculously stupid if said attack leaves you as free fodder.
Also, I'm taken back by your (RaikouLover's) implication that Pursuit is overrated. Pursuit is arguably one of the best moves in the game and a very commonly used one at that, so scoffing at it when discussing the Specs Starmie set is a big mistake.
Anyways, I don't think there's anything else to discuss here, since we're obviously not going to ever agree on this. You can keep using Psychic on your Specs Starmie, but I will personally not agree to it being on the analysis (and judging from the other posts made by other QC members, neither will the majority of them).
Also, why does combination type coverage matter on a CHOICED Pokemon? You can't switch your move, so you're stuck predicting to begin with anyways. In that case, you're better off either predicting: non-water (use water attack) or water (use Thunderbolt). Ice Beam if you expect Celebi, but I personally prefer the moveset: Hydro Pump / Surf, Thunderbolt, Rapid Spin, Trick on the Specs set. Having a STAB attack for the sake of having STAB is ridiculously stupid if said attack leaves you as free fodder.
Also, I'm taken back by your (RaikouLover's) implication that Pursuit is overrated. Pursuit is arguably one of the best moves in the game and a very commonly used one at that, so scoffing at it when discussing the Specs Starmie set is a big mistake.
Anyways, I don't think there's anything else to discuss here, since we're obviously not going to ever agree on this. You can keep using Psychic on your Specs Starmie, but I will personally not agree to it being on the analysis (and judging from the other posts made by other QC members, neither will the majority of them).
Slashing or mentioning Psychic in AC is not going to happen. The reasons have been explained very well here, so I don't think I need to weigh in on it too.
I'm approving each set listed in the OP. But whistle, do you mind waiting a day or two for me to get back with results regarding the Reflect Support set? When Round 2 of QC finalized we were kind of unsure on whether removing this set was alright or not. Now that this update is going to take place I want to make sure that we're doing the right thing about Reflect Starmie.
I'm approving each set listed in the OP. But whistle, do you mind waiting a day or two for me to get back with results regarding the Reflect Support set? When Round 2 of QC finalized we were kind of unsure on whether removing this set was alright or not. Now that this update is going to take place I want to make sure that we're doing the right thing about Reflect Starmie.
just posting calcs on Reflect Starmie here, maybe it'll give you an idea of what the set can accomplish
252/240 Bold Leftovers Starmie +Reflect
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Crunch : 34% - 40.7%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn : 46.9% - 56.2%
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage : 48.5% - 57.4%
vs. 236 Adamant Choice Band Metagross ThunderPunch : 34.6% - 40.7%
vs. 252 Adamant Toxic Orb Breloom Seed Bomb : 35.8% - 43.2%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross Megahorn : 52.5% - 63%
In fact, on Breloom, Metagross and even Tyranitar, you can Recover off the damage before switching to something else.
I think the problem with Reflect Starmie is that most people are accustomed to just either Rapid Spinning or attacking a lot, when really, with this Starmie you shouldn't attack at all unless it is absolutely necessary (i.e. against weakened TTar or Scizor) to score a kill to something that would otherwise threaten you. This set is simply supposed to keep itself healthy with Recover, use Reflect when the opportunity arises (switching Starmie in on something it can force out, Reflect on the switch, let something else set up), and perhaps Spin entry hazards away. These priorities are in order of how you should do them as well.
Also noteworthy that Light Screen might deserve an AC mention in this set somewhere, since even with 0 SpD, Light Screen allows Starmie to avoid the OHKO on things like +2 Infernape Grass Knot, Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt and even Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball.
252/240 Bold Leftovers Starmie +Reflect
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Crunch : 34% - 40.7%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn : 46.9% - 56.2%
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage : 48.5% - 57.4%
vs. 236 Adamant Choice Band Metagross ThunderPunch : 34.6% - 40.7%
vs. 252 Adamant Toxic Orb Breloom Seed Bomb : 35.8% - 43.2%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross Megahorn : 52.5% - 63%
In fact, on Breloom, Metagross and even Tyranitar, you can Recover off the damage before switching to something else.
I think the problem with Reflect Starmie is that most people are accustomed to just either Rapid Spinning or attacking a lot, when really, with this Starmie you shouldn't attack at all unless it is absolutely necessary (i.e. against weakened TTar or Scizor) to score a kill to something that would otherwise threaten you. This set is simply supposed to keep itself healthy with Recover, use Reflect when the opportunity arises (switching Starmie in on something it can force out, Reflect on the switch, let something else set up), and perhaps Spin entry hazards away. These priorities are in order of how you should do them as well.
Also noteworthy that Light Screen might deserve an AC mention in this set somewhere, since even with 0 SpD, Light Screen allows Starmie to avoid the OHKO on things like +2 Infernape Grass Knot, Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt and even Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball.
You've got a good point except for a few things:
1. Gengar is not dominant for that reason, like, at all. That's totally not the reason anyone's ever used Gengar.
2. Kingdra is far from dominant.
3. Latias used a move resisted by only one type and immune by no one. That's AMAZING neutral coverage.
4. Psychic doesn't have that good neutral coverage. Surf has MUCH better neutral coverage.
Against a 20% Tyranitar, there's a TON of difference.
lol, I didn't even see that bit about there not being much difference between Thunderbolt/Ice Beam and Psychic vs. Tyranitar. Wow, are you kidding me? Get your facts straight.
Specs Thunderbolt / Ice Beam vs. Standard CB TTar: 22.6% - 26.8%
That's a pretty big difference if you ask me. Especially considering if TTar wants to switch into the attack. He takes 0% from Specs Psychic switching in, and KOs for free, or takes a minimum of 22.6% from Specs Tbolt/Ice Beam and then takes another minimum of 22.6% before KOing. Do you know what that means? Starmie will do anywhere from 43% to 53% to a Tyranitar switching in compared to 0% from Psychic. If you don't think that's a big difference, then you don't know Pokemon.
Specs Thunderbolt / Ice Beam vs. Standard CB TTar: 22.6% - 26.8%
That's a pretty big difference if you ask me. Especially considering if TTar wants to switch into the attack. He takes 0% from Specs Psychic switching in, and KOs for free, or takes a minimum of 22.6% from Specs Tbolt/Ice Beam and then takes another minimum of 22.6% before KOing. Do you know what that means? Starmie will do anywhere from 43% to 53% to a Tyranitar switching in compared to 0% from Psychic. If you don't think that's a big difference, then you don't know Pokemon.
................. Surf + Psychic brah thats what I been saying. Another example is Poison is "shitty.." but Poison / Fire actually hits everything except Tentacruel, Heatran and Swampert... gooooooooooooo figure..... (though people were against NP Crobat to use Sludge Bomb / Heat Wave over Air Slash / HP Ground despite it being ~20% more powerful)
I don't see how any of this is relevant when you arent SPAMing Psychic anyway. Any Tyranitar other than Scarf (which beats you whether you use Psychic, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt) is a bad switch into Starmie. Speaking from experience.. I never had problems with Pursuit when using Specs Starmie or Slowbro.
And Rapid Spin as the 3rd slot? Water + Electric is going to be WORSE coverage than Water + Psychic (hits all the same shit, but Psychic has STAB!) and if you want a Spinner I don't know why you would be using SPECS Starmie anyway...
Surf / Psychic / Thunderbolt or Ice Beam / Trick is the way to go. Though obviously that perfect coverage right there is foolish.
So you want a neutral coverage attack, that you aren't spamming, that is better than Surf. And the answer is Psychic? I thought you're supposed to use netural STAB attacks the most, for general damage, since in specific and rare instances you'd rather hit SE. I just don't see when the "general case" is that you'd use Psychic, since you can't spam it for Pursuit, you're not using it to hit anything SE, and Surf is almost always better anyway.
Nothing is better than Surf, it is the primary attack..? I'm saying its pretty simple that whatever can switch into Psychic can't switch into Surf.. and whatever can switch into Surf can't switch into Psychic (Celebi is the obvious exception).
That is completely irrelevant. NP Crobat isn't choice locked and completely different to Specs Starmie so I have no idea why you're bringing it up
The relevance is that if Scarf Tar DOES come in, you're actually damaging in instead of just "It Doesn't affect Tyranitar!" Guess what - Tyranitar at 100% is a lot worse than Tyranitar at like 60-80%
Water/Electric and Water/Psychic have the same coverage? I'm sorry, what the fuck. You are missing other Starmie, Suicune, Skarmory, Vaporeon, Togekiss, and god knows what else.
You are losing coverage on: Machamp, Heracross and Infernape (who you can surf anyway)
Starmie is not going to be getting many options for switching in. It takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock, takes Spikes damage, cannot Recover it off, and I'm pretty sure if you're going to be spamming anything, spam the goddamn safest option. Psychic has zero use on Starmie since if you are that worried about Scarf Heracross (who outspeeds you and Megahorns for enough damage to OHKO you TWICE) or Machamp, while if Tyranitar comes in, you're fucked as it can either Pursuit or Dragon Dance at its leisure.
Spam Surf and worst case scenario Vaporeon comes in and gets a big sub to pass onto some other shit. And no smart player would switch Vaporeon into Starmie unless you knew it was choiced.
It has zero use on Azelf too right? Just like Zen Headbutt has no use on Metagross? Though I'm sure people will argue Zen Headbutt has no use on Choice Band Metagross too (if you think that, you have a lot to learn).
Every single one of those are 2HKOed by Specs Surf or Hydro Pump or Psychic. Yes, even other Starmie.
Azelf uses Psychic since it doesn't need Specs to hit hard. Azelf is also more commonly seen as a late-game sweeper when spamming Specs Psychics. you know, when Tyranitar is dead. Otherwise, Psychic Zelf is used to hit Machamp leads. Starmie is not doing that. Starmie is also not predicting Machamp coming into it for Psychic. Machamp is not staying in on a Starmie. Zen Headbutt Metagross, is lol at best.
Yeah, Suicune and Vaporeon are 2HKOed by Specs Surf or Hydro Pump. Protip; Tricking them your Specs is a hell of a lot more effective than trying to 2HKO with Psychic, since after the first one - lol tyranitar comes in. The fact that Psychic is scoring you zero important OHKOes doesn't help either, since Machamp and Scarf Heracross are easily dealt with. Again, other Starmie - why would I bother attacking that when I can go to my own Tyranitar or Scarf Scizor and just pick it off instead of trying to 2HKO that and getting hurt myself? again - Specs Starmie has no Recover.
Yeah, Suicune and Vaporeon are 2HKOed by Specs Surf or Hydro Pump. Protip; Tricking them your Specs is a hell of a lot more effective than trying to 2HKO with Psychic, since after the first one - lol tyranitar comes in. The fact that Psychic is scoring you zero important OHKOes doesn't help either, since Machamp and Scarf Heracross are easily dealt with. Again, other Starmie - why would I bother attacking that when I can go to my own Tyranitar or Scarf Scizor and just pick it off instead of trying to 2HKO that and getting hurt myself? again - Specs Starmie has no Recover.
...... maybe you should battle more cough Rotom cough.
That would be a good time to use Psychic, yes.
When you bring starmie in to revenge Machamp and you use Psychic you clearly have no clue how to use a choice pokemon.
Yes, Psychic is on this set because of Heracross the what 47th most used pokemon??
Good luck switching into a LO Hydro Pump.
getting seriously tired now.
I'm sorry, on a speed as high as Starmie's with good coverage, HOW THE FUCK ELSE are you using a Choice Pokemon? Switch in, hit something hard, switch out for later.
I'm using Specs Starmie wrong by trying to Surf a lot of things so Flygon and Heatran can KO everything else? Please tell me!
LO Starmie vs Scarf Scizor (4/0): 71.6% - 84.4%
You outspeed and KO with either U-turn OR Pursuit.
Surf vs Tyranitar: 65.5% - 77.8%
in fact, Hydro Pump:
vs ScarfTar: 84.2% - 98.8%
vs Scizor: 90.4% - 106.7%
don't need luck unless we're talking Scizor or SR Tyranitar.
Metagross has Zen Headbutt listed nowhere except for Scarf, and guess what it does to defensive Rotom; 32.9% - 38.8%
You make no point here.
You clearly have no clue how to structure a sentence since I didn't understand that.
I'm sorry, on a speed as high as Starmie's with good coverage, HOW THE FUCK ELSE are you using a Choice Pokemon? Switch in, hit something hard, switch out for later.
I'm using Specs Starmie wrong by trying to Surf a lot of things so Flygon and Heatran can KO everything else? Please tell me!
That's not my point. I'm saying Psychic is useless on Starmie and the only perks you get are hitting Heracross and Machamp. The fact that Heracross isn't used as much only backs up my point further.
LO Starmie vs Scarf Scizor (4/0): 71.6% - 84.4%
You outspeed and KO with either U-turn OR Pursuit.
Surf vs Tyranitar: 65.5% - 77.8%
in fact, Hydro Pump:
vs ScarfTar: 84.2% - 98.8%
vs Scizor: 90.4% - 106.7%
don't need luck unless we're talking Scizor or SR Tyranitar.
Alright, I'm going to have to put my foot down for the sake of the analysis as a whole. There will be no more debating Psychic on Specs Starmie. 4/6 QC members have posted already saying they think it's a bad idea, and I know one other member thinks so too from talks on IRC. The pro-Psychic people have pleaded their case, but it's just not convincing, sorry. I will not have this debate shit up the topic anymore. Sorry whistle.
Anymore posts regarding Psychic on Specs Starmie will be infracted.
^bolded so people don't ignore this post...
Anymore posts regarding Psychic on Specs Starmie will be infracted.
^bolded so people don't ignore this post...
Moving past the Psychic stuff....Thunder Wave is actually a pretty cool option on the defensive Rapid Spin Starmie set. Most people rely on faster Pokemon (usually Scarfers) to beat Starmie, and so Thunder Wave screws up Pokemon who come in and try and outpace and KO Starmie. I don't think that it should be slashed with anything, but I think that a mention in Additional Comments could be a good idea. If not that, then at least one in Optional Changes at the end.
Alright, so here are my results for Reflect Starmie: there was something that I didn't really like from the very beginning, the fact that with the listed spread Starmie wasn't even able to outspeed max Speed Heatran. In a metagame where Pokemon such as Heatran and Infernape are very common and threatening, it is notably important for Starmie to outspeed them or otherwise she could get KOed by consecutive LOed Grass Knot and HP Grass, respectively. Below I'll illustrate the damages that these aforementioned Pokémon score to 252 HP / 240 Def Bold Starmie:
Specially-based Infernape's Grass Knot vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Starmie: (48.77% - 57.41%)
Life Orb Heatran's HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Starmie: (50.00% - 59.26%)
In both cases, the 2HKO is practically unavoidable. This, in my opinion, reduces Starmie's reasons of existence in a considerable way. What is Starmie going to do by using Reflect, Rapid Spin and that major investment in Defense? The answers are limited to: 1) stopping Tyranitar to an extent, at least one turn in which he sees it cannot kill Starmie due to Reflect + Recover | 2) take physical moves generally better, which in my opinion is kinda useless with that reduced movepool.
After having tried out sufficiently the listed spread in the strategy Pokédex, I started to use something different: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe. The spread is designed to outspeed max Speed Infernape while retaining some bulk in the Defense. Well, the outcomes of the tests with said spread were kind of unpleasant as well, as I realized later that the spread utilized by the Rapid Spinner set was slightly better than this one -- it basically makes Starmie able to take hits a bit easier.
In all seriousness, the only possible thing I could see coming out from a set of this type would be some sort of combination with Reflect and Light Screen and even Light Clay as the item. However, even without previous tests I really doubt it could work.
With that being said, I'm officially stamping this update.
Once the other QCers give their stamp, I'll move this thread.
Specially-based Infernape's Grass Knot vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Starmie: (48.77% - 57.41%)
Life Orb Heatran's HP Grass vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Starmie: (50.00% - 59.26%)
In both cases, the 2HKO is practically unavoidable. This, in my opinion, reduces Starmie's reasons of existence in a considerable way. What is Starmie going to do by using Reflect, Rapid Spin and that major investment in Defense? The answers are limited to: 1) stopping Tyranitar to an extent, at least one turn in which he sees it cannot kill Starmie due to Reflect + Recover | 2) take physical moves generally better, which in my opinion is kinda useless with that reduced movepool.
After having tried out sufficiently the listed spread in the strategy Pokédex, I started to use something different: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe. The spread is designed to outspeed max Speed Infernape while retaining some bulk in the Defense. Well, the outcomes of the tests with said spread were kind of unpleasant as well, as I realized later that the spread utilized by the Rapid Spinner set was slightly better than this one -- it basically makes Starmie able to take hits a bit easier.
In all seriousness, the only possible thing I could see coming out from a set of this type would be some sort of combination with Reflect and Light Screen and even Light Clay as the item. However, even without previous tests I really doubt it could work.
With that being said, I'm officially stamping this update.
Once the other QCers give their stamp, I'll move this thread.
Yeah, make the Reflect set go away.
HP Fire
I've been running a very fast paced Offensive sweeper team. And in doing so, I noticed I don't really need to use Rapid Spin or I won't get the chance to use it. However, Starmie was a beast for me and a very effective sweeper in the late game. Since I'm Timid, with Life Orb, and all of my Evs are in Sp Atk and Speed I decided Recover wasn't that great of an option. So, I decided to go with a 4th Attack.
That 4th Attack is HP Fire. I've had great success with it so far. Scizor is the most commonly used Pokemon on Shoddy. Starmie's biggest weakness is Scizor. If someone sees a Starmie on the field chances are they will switch in their Scizor if they have one. HP Fire is a 1HKO. And Starmie will easily survive a BP and will outspeed the more likely Pursuit or U-Turn. But it also comes in handy against many of the pesky Ice Types that think it is safe to switch in on. Your thoughts?
I've been running a very fast paced Offensive sweeper team. And in doing so, I noticed I don't really need to use Rapid Spin or I won't get the chance to use it. However, Starmie was a beast for me and a very effective sweeper in the late game. Since I'm Timid, with Life Orb, and all of my Evs are in Sp Atk and Speed I decided Recover wasn't that great of an option. So, I decided to go with a 4th Attack.
That 4th Attack is HP Fire. I've had great success with it so far. Scizor is the most commonly used Pokemon on Shoddy. Starmie's biggest weakness is Scizor. If someone sees a Starmie on the field chances are they will switch in their Scizor if they have one. HP Fire is a 1HKO. And Starmie will easily survive a BP and will outspeed the more likely Pursuit or U-Turn. But it also comes in handy against many of the pesky Ice Types that think it is safe to switch in on. Your thoughts?
Also, if Scizor switches into Stealth Rock twice, which is highly likely considering how he scouts with U-turn a lot, Life Orb Starmie can pretty much OHKO him with Hydro Pump, as it does 74.34% - 87.76% damage.
All Hidden Power Fire is useful for is against Abomasnow, really, who isn't even that common.
All Hidden Power Fire is useful for is against Abomasnow, really, who isn't even that common.
See I disagree. First of all hydropump has poor accuracy. Second of all, many people on shoddy have been adjusting their Scizor's EVs to be able to take a hydro pump from Starmie. If you look at today's RMTs you'll see at least 2 teams with Scizors like that.
I'm using a offensive variation of Rapid-Spin-Starmie in some of my teams and it really does its work. Surf/Thunderbolt/RapidSpin/Recover (252/252 Timid)@Life-Orb
There's just a huge difference when it comes down to fight against Pokemon you don't hit super-effective or which have a good special defense, here are some of the important calcs:
Leftovers-RS-Starmie with Thunderbolt and Surf:
Salamence: 27.8% - 32.6%
S.Def Skarmory: 40.7% - 47.9%
Standard Rotom-H: 31.9% - 37.8%
CB Scizor: 36.2% - 42.9%
CS Tar: 40.4% - 48%
Vaporeon: 32.1% - 37.9%
LO-RS-Starmie with Thunderbolt and Surf:
Salamence: 45.3% - 53.8%
S.Def Skarmory: 66.5% - 78.4%
Standard Rotom-H: 52.6% - 62.2%
CS Tar: 65.5% - 77.8%
CB Scizor: 58.9% - 69.4%
Vaporeon: 52.7% - 62.1%
I really like this set because you are able to use 100% acc Surf and your attacks are still going to hurt most of your enemies.
Of course you loose the Leftovers-Recovery, but I think it's worth it.
There's just a huge difference when it comes down to fight against Pokemon you don't hit super-effective or which have a good special defense, here are some of the important calcs:
Leftovers-RS-Starmie with Thunderbolt and Surf:
Salamence: 27.8% - 32.6%
S.Def Skarmory: 40.7% - 47.9%
Standard Rotom-H: 31.9% - 37.8%
CB Scizor: 36.2% - 42.9%
CS Tar: 40.4% - 48%
Vaporeon: 32.1% - 37.9%
LO-RS-Starmie with Thunderbolt and Surf:
Salamence: 45.3% - 53.8%
S.Def Skarmory: 66.5% - 78.4%
Standard Rotom-H: 52.6% - 62.2%
CS Tar: 65.5% - 77.8%
CB Scizor: 58.9% - 69.4%
Vaporeon: 52.7% - 62.1%
I really like this set because you are able to use 100% acc Surf and your attacks are still going to hurt most of your enemies.
Of course you loose the Leftovers-Recovery, but I think it's worth it.