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Starmie (Update)
- Thread starter whistle
- Start date
Hmmmm...Adamant LO Gyarados is able OHKO this new Rapid Spin Starmie spread with +1 EQ after SR damage (precisely a 1/3 chance), and this should not happen, since many people use this as their Gyarados check.
The spread I am talking about is the one listed in the OP:
Timid
252 HP/20 Def/20 SpD/216 Spe
The spread I am talking about is the one listed in the OP:
Timid
252 HP/20 Def/20 SpD/216 Spe
Ok, let me take a stab at the overview.
[OVERVIEW]
<p>Starmie is a fairly diverse Pokemon, capable of filling both offensive and support roles. Its high Speed, great coverage, and immediate power cement it as one of OU’s top special sweepers. Starmie can also take advantage of its resistances with a defensive set that supplies Rapid Spin support. Unfortunately, its Psychic subtype gives it a weakness to Pursuit, and the move’s omnipresence means Starmie must always be on the lookout. Despite this, Starmie is still one of the most effective Pokemon in OU, and is an asset to almost every team.</p>
[OVERVIEW]
<p>Starmie is a fairly diverse Pokemon, capable of filling both offensive and support roles. Its high Speed, great coverage, and immediate power cement it as one of OU’s top special sweepers. Starmie can also take advantage of its resistances with a defensive set that supplies Rapid Spin support. Unfortunately, its Psychic subtype gives it a weakness to Pursuit, and the move’s omnipresence means Starmie must always be on the lookout. Despite this, Starmie is still one of the most effective Pokemon in OU, and is an asset to almost every team.</p>
Mention of alternate EV spread for Life Orb set:
32 HP / 144 SpA / 80 SpD / 252 Spe, Timid
Lets you use Recover more efficiently. You take 38-45% from ScarfTran Fire Blast, so you can switch into him on Stealth Rock and almost never be 2HKOed. You also take much less from Physically based Infernape's attacks so you can recover safely.
32 HP / 144 SpA / 80 SpD / 252 Spe, Timid
Lets you use Recover more efficiently. You take 38-45% from ScarfTran Fire Blast, so you can switch into him on Stealth Rock and almost never be 2HKOed. You also take much less from Physically based Infernape's attacks so you can recover safely.
i pmed some qc people about the spinner set evs since i feel 136/156 is pretty outdated.
@ rl: that spread honestly seems random as fuck... i'm not against the idea of adding bulk but those evs don't seem too refined. it's still got a ~15% chance of dying to scarftran which is increased to ~60% with sand. 32 hp... barely helps against close combat/uturn. i added a mention of using some defensive evs, but in my experience lo starmie works the best when you switch it in without eating 50% from an attack since that really puts a damper on how much pressure it can put on the opponent.
@ mtr: i like the rephrasing. thanks.
@ rl: that spread honestly seems random as fuck... i'm not against the idea of adding bulk but those evs don't seem too refined. it's still got a ~15% chance of dying to scarftran which is increased to ~60% with sand. 32 hp... barely helps against close combat/uturn. i added a mention of using some defensive evs, but in my experience lo starmie works the best when you switch it in without eating 50% from an attack since that really puts a damper on how much pressure it can put on the opponent.
@ mtr: i like the rephrasing. thanks.
Lack of boost on neutral Hydro Pump is huge, and Scarf/Specs are rare enough that it's not an extremely effective bluff.
Anyway, I agree with Max HP on Rapid Spin, with the 136/156 spread listed in AC.
Anyway, I agree with Max HP on Rapid Spin, with the 136/156 spread listed in AC.
^ I agree.
However, if you decide on sticking with 216 Speed on Starmie, I think you should take out 20 SpD EVs (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think these allow you to survive anything specific) and place them in Def, so Starmie has a higher chance of surviving +1 LO Adamant EQ from Gyara.
Yeah, I can work on tweaking it some more. The idea is that Life Orb Starmie doesn't have to be just an offensive pokemon, especially with the things Starmie can check and access to Recover, which water pokemon LOVE. Being able to switch into ScarfTran is definately more appealing than not being able to, right? Or its good to deal good damage out AND be able to check Scarftran rather than just "deal the most possible damage." Life Orb Starmie is relying on its type coverage to do damage anyway.
152 HP / 100 SpA / 252 Spe, Timid = 299 HP / 261 SpA / 361 Spe
Scarftarn is now maxing at 44% even, and you take less from hits on both sides of the spectrum. AC mention?
really solid proofreading, thanks jc104. only thing is that I think I'm going to keep less-than-stellar -- I'd use "less than stellar" only if I wrote "accuracy that is less than stellar" instead of "less-than-stellar accuracy".
RL I don't feel the need to mention a specific spread. I added a mention of adding EVs to defenses to survive hits better but I feel the EVs are something that should be decided on a case-by-case basis. yeah, these allow you to survive Fire Blast without sand... I don't really think that makes them special though.
edit: forgot to mention I added Plus's set into the analysis with a few changes.
RL I don't feel the need to mention a specific spread. I added a mention of adding EVs to defenses to survive hits better but I feel the EVs are something that should be decided on a case-by-case basis. yeah, these allow you to survive Fire Blast without sand... I don't really think that makes them special though.
edit: forgot to mention I added Plus's set into the analysis with a few changes.
I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of the trickscarf lead set. Let's examine the common leads...
Azelf: Commonly carries u-turn now and you aren't OHKOing with hydro pump
Mahamp: OHKO's with Payback
Aerodactyl: You win, or force a switch.
Metagross: You stop rocks, though it isnt like scarf metagross is even close to dead weight. LO lead is also probably better here, since it can just surf then rapid spin.
Swampert: Does well; swampert gets a scarf and you spin.
Jirachi: Best case scenario, they try to trick you as you hydro pump. Worst case they U-turn. Still, this certainly isn't a "win" for starmie. You have to guess whether they're scarf or not =(
Infernape: forces a switch, but non-choice starmie is obviously better here.
Roserade: OHKOs you with leaf storm or gets a free sleep powder shot.
Heatran: forces a switch, but non-choice starmie is obviously better here.
Ninjask: It protects and then it's faster than you anyway. And let's be honest the people who use ninjask lead are the same people who would stupidly run high speed on ninjask lead.
So you're doing well against infernape, swampert, and heatran and losing or being mediocre against everything else. The problem here arises in the fact that any halfway decent player using infernape and heatran will just switch out of starmie, and then you're stuck with the fact that starmie just doesn't deal that much damage, and isn't durable enough to keep coming in to spin against a stall team. Even if you keep the scarf your coverage for revenge killing is mediocre.
Not to mention that you're relying on 80% accurate hydro pump.
On a related note, if you do keep the set you need to change the write-up in a few places:
As far as some other grammar fixes go...
I also rewrote the second paragraph (and split it in two); it had a lot of useless or inaccurate information and was organized really strangely, and some of the grammar was a little off.
Maybe I'll go through the rest of the write up later.
Azelf: Commonly carries u-turn now and you aren't OHKOing with hydro pump
Mahamp: OHKO's with Payback
Aerodactyl: You win, or force a switch.
Metagross: You stop rocks, though it isnt like scarf metagross is even close to dead weight. LO lead is also probably better here, since it can just surf then rapid spin.
Swampert: Does well; swampert gets a scarf and you spin.
Jirachi: Best case scenario, they try to trick you as you hydro pump. Worst case they U-turn. Still, this certainly isn't a "win" for starmie. You have to guess whether they're scarf or not =(
Infernape: forces a switch, but non-choice starmie is obviously better here.
Roserade: OHKOs you with leaf storm or gets a free sleep powder shot.
Heatran: forces a switch, but non-choice starmie is obviously better here.
Ninjask: It protects and then it's faster than you anyway. And let's be honest the people who use ninjask lead are the same people who would stupidly run high speed on ninjask lead.
So you're doing well against infernape, swampert, and heatran and losing or being mediocre against everything else. The problem here arises in the fact that any halfway decent player using infernape and heatran will just switch out of starmie, and then you're stuck with the fact that starmie just doesn't deal that much damage, and isn't durable enough to keep coming in to spin against a stall team. Even if you keep the scarf your coverage for revenge killing is mediocre.
Not to mention that you're relying on 80% accurate hydro pump.
On a related note, if you do keep the set you need to change the write-up in a few places:
- Lead Azelf commonly uses U-turn, so tricking scarf onto azelf lead is a really poor idea. Starmie is actually not very good against azelf lead now =(
- "Choice Scarf Starmie also outspeeds some other common Choice Scarfed leads and hits them relatively hard" isn't too accurate considering that jirachi is the only common lead that runs scarf (you're being pretty generous with 0.61% breloom), and even then jirachi doesnt always run scarf, so trick is sometimes a better play than hydro pump. Also why do you say "relatively hard"? relative to what? you should probably remove "relative".
- Saying that Hydro Pump gives you a "reliable" 2HKO on anything isn't even close to accurate, considering that chance of it hitting twice in a row is 64%. "Potential" 2HKO is more appropriate.
As far as some other grammar fixes go...
The bolded portions should be removed; the red should be added. Every starmie is a great spinner, not just this one. "On the other hand" doesnt make sense since you aren't making statement contrary to the previous sentence. The last bolded portion is really just useless fluff; it's obvious and doesn't need to be stated.
I also rewrote the second paragraph (and split it in two); it had a lot of useless or inaccurate information and was organized really strangely, and some of the grammar was a little off.
So yeah basically I am pulling for the removal of this set that I just rewrote....
Maybe I'll go through the rest of the write up later.
I was assuming that Aerodactyl uses Stealth Rock turn 1...though now that I think about it, turn 1 SR would be a really bad play so yeah you're right. Though there is still the chance that the opponent just switches aero out...which is arguably a better play than attacking starmie. I'll fix it though.
Considering there is already a scarf starmie write-up this would be equivalent to scrapping the trickscarf lead set.
Alright, considering the whole analysis, I'd say scrap the separate lead set for trickscarf, and just mention it in AC for the scarf set. I personally feel trickscarf Starmie can be a decent lead, so I don't want it erased from the analysis completely, but AC should suffice, since the two sets are pretty similar anyways.
I also consider that a mention in AC of the possibility to use Starmie as a lead would be the way to go about that set. I personally don't think that it should remain with its own analysis.
whistle: when making that mention in AC, you can also add that apart from the fact that Starmie can cripple a few leads by Tricking the CS onto them, it can open an opportunity for another Pokemon to set up if it dies in the process, since the Pokemon that received the Scarf would be locked into a move.
whistle: when making that mention in AC, you can also add that apart from the fact that Starmie can cripple a few leads by Tricking the CS onto them, it can open an opportunity for another Pokemon to set up if it dies in the process, since the Pokemon that received the Scarf would be locked into a move.
Having written trickscarf back a couple months ago it's lost some of its effectiveness in the lead spot due to azelfs running uturn and can actually survive pumps, and machamp leads as well. However it's not to say that trickscarf still isn't a viable set, I like using Scarf Starmie as a revenge killer to lots of set up pokemon that are ridiculously hard to outspeed. Trickscarf as a lead also does significantly better against Stall IMO, with leads such as Forretress and Hippowdon that usually tempt stall players to go to blissey/vap/cune/etc. turn one and can really catch people off guard. Against leads that Starmie does beat such as Heatran and whatnot, on top of having the option to hydro pump you also have the ability to trick the switch in, which most often puts you in a nice spot.
I agree with panamaxis concerning the name of the set, and I would advocate talking about it in a spot other than a lead position which works just as well. Other than that, I've been using the set to success in tournaments and ladder runs when I have used it. It has definitely lost some of its usefulness but I think it still deserves its own set.
EDIT: yeah just saw the writeup for scarf star, mentioning it as a lead in ac is perfectly fine with me
I agree with panamaxis concerning the name of the set, and I would advocate talking about it in a spot other than a lead position which works just as well. Other than that, I've been using the set to success in tournaments and ladder runs when I have used it. It has definitely lost some of its usefulness but I think it still deserves its own set.
EDIT: yeah just saw the writeup for scarf star, mentioning it as a lead in ac is perfectly fine with me
Additions in bold, removals in red.
I didn't correct any of them, but please fix your apostrophes; they're almost all of the wrong type. Other than that, you're very repetitive in many places, so I spiced up the word choice a bit. Also, you use parenthesis in many places where they can be avoided. I think the wording sounds better without them in all of those cases. Other than that, I really liked the writeup and think it's ready after these fixes are made.
Cheers.
GP Check 2/2
[OVERVIEW]
<p>Starmie is a fairly diverse Pokemon, capable of filling both offensive and support roles. Its high Speed, great coverage, and immediate power cement it as one of OU’s top special sweepers. Starmie can also take advantage of its resistances with a defensive set that supplies Rapid Spin support. Unfortunately, its Psychic subtype secondary typing gives it a weakness to Pursuit, and the move’s omnipresence means that Starmie must always be on the lookout. Despite this, Starmie is one of the most effective Pokemon in OU, and is an asset to almost any team.</p>
[SET]
name: Life Orb
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Recover / Rapid Spin
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie's blazing Speed and great type coverage make it a fearsome special sweeper who is especially potent as a late-game cleaner against offensive teams. Hydro Pump is a powerful STAB attack that 2HKOes Swampert, Jirachi, and Metagross. and It is so intense that it OHKOes most Tyranitar after one Stealth Rock switch-in and Scizor after two. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are used to hit the Pokemon who resist Water-type attacks, such as Celebi, Dragonite, Suicune, and Vaporeon. With Recover, Starmie can switch into Heatran and Infernape with greater ease while being able to heal off damage taken from Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil.</p>
<p>Starmie is also an excellent offensive spinner if it runs Rapid Spin over Recover. Rotom-A, the primary OU spinblocker, will be extremely reluctant to switch into Starmie, since Starmie’s Life Orb-boosted Hydro Pump OHKOes offensive variants and 2HKOes defensive versions. Forgoing Recover decreases Starmie’s longevity, but it may not get many chances to use Recover against offensive teams in the first place, while a successful spin can be the deciding factor in a battle.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Since Hydro Pump has less-than-stellar accuracy, Starmie can instead use Surf as a reliable attack to take down Pokemon like Infernape. However, tThe extra firepower that Hydro Pump provides, however, is needed to secure several OHKOs and 2HKOs, specifically against Swampert, Scizor, Tyranitar, and 252 HP Jirachi. If Starmie carries Rapid Spin in the last slot instead of Recover, it makes an effective anti-lead. It resists many of the attacks that common leads use (such as Infernape’s Fire Blast and Close Combat, Azelf’s Psychic and Fire Blast, and Metagross’s Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch) and can use Rapid Spin to simultaneously dispatch of Focus Sash users and get rid of any their set up entry hazards they have set up. This makes Starmie particularly effective in dealing with suicide leads like Infernape, Aerodactyl, and Azelf. Grass Knot is recommended over Thunderbolt or Ice Beam on a leading Starmie in order to OHKO Swampert. If Starmie is using Recover in the last slot, shifting a few EVs into its defenses will let Starmie switch with greater ease into Pokemon like Infernape and Heatran.</p>
<p>In spite of Starmie's formidable offensive prowess, it has problems getting past a few specific Pokemon. Blissey and Snorlax are the best counters for offensive Starmie; Blissey can use Seismic Toss and Toxic to wear down Starmie, while Snorlax can hit back with Body Slam, Crunch, and Pursuit. Speaking of Pursuit, Starmie is not as afraid of Pursuit as most other Psychic-types because it can maim or OHKO many common Pursuit users, such as Tyranitar and Scizor, with its STAB Hydro Pump. However, if Choice Scarf Tyranitar manages to switch into Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, or Recover, it can threaten Starmie with its higher Speed and both Pursuit and Crunch. Scizor survives Hydro Pump as long as it switches into Stealth Rock only once, but it must essentially sacrifice itself to take Starmie out. Finally, Choice Scarf users, such as Jirachi and Rotom-A, do well against Starmie if they switch into a resisted move.</p>
<p>This set is easy to use, especially if Starmie is forgoing the use of Rapid Spin. Stealth Rock is highly recommended since it has wide distribution and will weaken the opposing team, which makes Starmie’s late-game sweep easier. While Spikes are harder to set up, they can turn allow Starmie’s Hydro Pump from a 2HKO into an to OHKO against bulkier opponents instead of 2HKOing them. Finally, Toxic Spikes are valuable primarily because they allow Starmie with Recover to break through Blissey, but also to devastate Blissey aiming to wall Starmie; on top of that, they wear down Pokemon like Swampert, Suicune, and Snorlax.</p>
[SET]
name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie is a fine choice for spinning away entry hazards. While Forretress, the other common OU spinner, is slower than Rotom-A and is neutered by Will-O-Wisp, Starmie is faster and can use STAB Surf to combat Rotom-A. Surf also provides a reliable weapon to use against Infernape and Heatran, whose hits are buffered by this set’s defensive investment. With Thunderbolt, Starmie is an excellent counter to Gyarados. Recover keeps Starmie at high health, which lets it perform its countering and spinning duties reliably throughout a match.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are tailored for survivability while still taking advantage of Starmie’s high Speed. 252 Speed EVs are used to Speed tie with opposing Starmie and Azelf, which gives you a chance to finish them off in a clutch scenario. If you are particularly concerned about Adamant Life Orb Dragon Dance Gyarados, using a spread of 136 HP / 156 Def / 216 Spe will ensure that Starmie is never KOed by +1 Earthquake or Stone Edge after Stealth Rock; this spread also stillallows maintains Starmie's ability to outpace Gengar and Infernape. However, mMax HP is more effective in most other instances, though, especially for switching into Heatran.</p>
<p>Grass-type Pokemon can also be particularly annoying since this set gives them a more-or-less free switch-in. Heatran, Skarmory, Forretress, Zapdos, and Flygon can all help deal with Shaymin and Celebi to an extent, but the versatility those Grass-types exhibit means it is impossible to find a perfect switch-in for all situations. Starmie can opt to carry Ice Beam instead of Thunderbolt to ward off these switch-ins Grass-type Pokemon, but it will no longer be able to counter Gyarados. (Oftentimes, the threat of Thunderbolt alone will often cause Gyarados to switch out. though). Regardless of whether it runs Ice Beam or Thunderbolt, this set’s low damage output means gives Dragon Dance Kingdra free reign to set up. can easily set up on it. Using a few bulky Steel-type Pokemon like Scizor, Metagross, or Skarmory can help patch up this weakness.</p>
<p>Although the bulky spread given is usually the most effective for using Rapid Spin since the defensive EVs prolong Starmie’slife, especially against bulky Stealth Rock-laying Pokemon, another option is to use a fully offensive spread with a Life Orb and Hydro Pump. That version obviously cannot switch into offensive Pokemon such as Heatran or Gyarados as well as the original; however, its Hydro Pump is over twice as powerful as the original’s Surf, which makes it much easier to break through defensive Rotom-A. The Life Orb variant appears remarkably similar to Starmie’s Life Orb sweeper set, but the two play differently. Using Recover over either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt allows Starmie to heal with impunity against many Pokemon common on stall teams, such as Blissey, Gyarados, Hippowdon, and Heatran, which increases its chance of spinning away entry hazards. The drawback is that Starmie performs slightly worse against offensive teams; if you drop Ice Beam, Celebi, Shaymin, and Dragonite will have a field day, while losing Thunderbolt means Gyarados and Suicune can set up. If your team can clear out those Pokemon, though, this alternative is a great middle ground between Starmie’s two most popular sets.</p> ((We discussed this on IRC and it's a bit redundant with the above paragraph))
<p>Pursuit users are not too bothersome for the Life Orb set due to its heavy investment in Special Attack, but they can prey on bulky Starmie since its Surf is relatively weak. If Tyranitar or Scizor aren’t substantially weakened, it’s impossible to “escape” from Pursuit., but tThere are a number of Pokemon you can use as teammates to compensate for Starmie’s Pursuit troubles, though demise. The classic example is Lucario, who can take advantage of a Choice-locked Pursuit to set up a potentially game-winning Swords Dance. However, if Starmie gets Pursuited in the early game, Lucario may have a tough time sweeping if it tries to set up immediately. Other Pokemon, such as Substitute Machamp, Skarmory, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, can also set up on Pursuit. If Scizor traps Starmie, Magnezone can turn the tables and trap it in return. Substitute + Will-O-Wisp Rotom-A is a good way to lure and cripple Tyranitar, but Scizor are usually not very eager to switch in until it has scouted Rotom-A’s set.</p>
[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With excellent Speed and respectable Special Attack as well as a diverse movepool, Choice Specs suits Starmie perfectly. STAB Hydro Pump deals massive damage to almost every Pokemon, including those with a resistance to the Water-type.; Tyranitar, Scizor, Lucario, Gengar, and Rotom-A are all OHKOed, while Swampert, Breloom, and Machamp are soundly 2HKOed. It will also 2HKO Even offensive Dragonite and Gyarados are 2HKOed with after Stealth Rock damage. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are fairly obvious choices to hit the Pokemon who resist Water-type attacks. Thunderbolt nets coverage on Vaporeon, Suicune, and Gyarados, while Ice Beam covers Dragonite, Celebi, and Shaymin. Finally, Trick lets Starmie cripple overzealous Blissey.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>This set’s goal and playstyle are similar to those of the Life Orb set, so naturally the sets share teammates and counters. One difference is that while Life Orb Starmie cannot do anything to Blissey, Choice Specs Starmie can cripple her by Tricking its Choice Specs away. Even though that heavily decreases Blissey’s effectiveness, it also puts a damper on Starmie’s ability to sweep, so Blissey should still be seen as a threat to this set. Although Hydro Pump cleanly OHKOes Tyranitar and Scizor, both common Pursuit users (Tyranitar and Scizor), Starmie is still vulnerable if it is caught while using Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, or Trick. To minimize this risk, Starmie should only use a move other than Hydro Pump or Surf when absolutely necessary. Also, Pokemon who can take advantage of a Choice-locked Pursuit, like Lucario, Infernape, Gyarados, and Machamp, are good teammates.</p>
<p>Since Choice Specs Hydro Pump is considerably more damaging than Life Orb Hydro Pump, Pokemon who appreciate Starmie’s ability to wear down common Pokemon who resist the Water-type are good teammates as well. Infernape, Heatran, and Gyarados benefit if Suicune is weakened, while Kingdra, Suicune, Gyarados, and Swampert appreciate the absence of Celebi and Shaymin. Rotom-A, Kingdra, and Dragonite are good ways to maintain momentum after Starmie has used Trick against Blissey and Vaporeon. Finally, it is still important to pack a few counters or checks to these Pokemon even though Starmie will be nailing them with a Hydro Pump that is more powerful than expected, since the weaken-and-sweep strategy means that your offensive core is especially vulnerable to them.</p>
<p>Starmie will be spamming Hydro Pump or Surf the majority of the time, so Pokemon who set up on Water those attacks are a distinct threat. Calm Mind Suicune, Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Dragon Dance Kingdra can easily set up if they switch in after Starmie has scored a KO. Celebi and Shaymin are both good answers to most Suicune and non-Bounce Gyarados sets. (watch out for Bounce Gyarados); Breloom is a great counter to Crocune, while Blissey easily takes on offensive Calm Mind sets. All three Grass-types also force Kingdra to use Outrage, which lets you beat it with a Steel-type like Metagross or Scizor. Calm Mind Jirachi is a good answer to offensive Suicune and most Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Scarf Rotom-A can check all three. A Gyarados of your own can buffer hits from opposing Gyarados and Kingdra with Intimidate, which lets another one of Starmie’s teammates handle them with greater ease.</p>
[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Modest / Timid
ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Putting a Choice Scarf onto Starmie allows it to effectively revenge kill many of the metagame's largest threats, including Gyarados, Gengar, and Heatran, even after their own Speed boosts. with +1 Speed or their own Choice Scarves. This Speed, combined with Starmie's good Special Attack and movepool, makes it a great check to all of these threats, by stopping them from sweeping your team. Surf is a reliable STAB attack and lets Starmie revenge kill Gengar and Heatran, while Ice Beam and Thunderbolt lets it revenge do the same to Dragonite and Thunderbolt KOes Gyarados, respectively. Trick is used in the last slot to cripple such counters as counters like Blissey, Vaporeon, Suicune, and Celebi, and also lets Starmie serve as a last-ditch check to Pokemon threatening to sweep your team.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Since Starmie doesn’t have access to a boosting item with this set, a Modest nature is the primary option recommended in order to compensate for the lost power. However, a Timid nature is an option if you are concerned about outpacing Choice Scarf Gengar and Scarf Infernape (or more commonly, Life Orb variants of the two Gengar and Life Orb Infernape after Starmie has Tricked away its Scarf). Thunderbolt and Ice Beam will still OHKO Gyarados and Dragonite, but Surf and Hydro Pump will be noticeably weaker against neutral targets.</p>
<p>This set can also be used effectively in the lead slot. If you decide to do that, using Rapid Spin over either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt will allow Starmie to spin away Stealth Rock after it has Tricked its Choice Scarf onto the opposing Stealth Rock lead; (Metagross, and Swampert, and even Azelf are good targets for this strategy). Additionally, if Starmie is matched up against Forretress or Hippowdon, using Trick on the first turn will usually let you catch a stall team's Blissey or Vaporeon, crippling it for the rest of the match. If you decide not to immediately use Trick, Starmie will be retain its role as an effective revenge killer in the later stages of a match. Unfortunately, leading Choice Scarf Starmie lose to U-turn Azelf, Machamp, and Roserade, so you should also carry Pokemon that can beat those leads.</p>
<p>As with the Choice Specs set, Pokemon who resist Water-type attacks will easily set up on Hydro Pump or Surf. This is made far worse here, however, because of the lack of power behind this set. Breloom and Suicune can now take advantage of Starmie. However, there are a few differences when comparing Pokemon who set up against the Choice Specs set and Pokemon who set up on this set. Pokemon such as Suicune and Breloom have an easier time setting up against this set due to its lower damage output. On the other hand, Dragonite and Gyarados cannot exploit this set as readily. With a Choice Scarf, Starmie will be faster than Dragonite and Gyarados even when they have a Dragon Dance, which means it can switch out then immediately switch back in to revenge kill.</p><p>However, it is still helpful to have Pokemon who can immediately take on these threats. Swampert beats Dragon Dance Dragonite if it’s at full health, and plenty of other Pokemon can force an Outrage so you can take Dragonite out with a Steel-type Pokemon. Choice Scarf Jirachi cleanly outpaces Dragonite and can revenge kill it with Ice Punch, (be careful not to use Iron Head against Dragonite since its ability prevents flinching). Scizor’s Bullet Punch strips off over half of Dragonite’s health, and Lucario’s ExtremeSpeed does quite a bit as well. Bulky Calm Mind Jirachi defeats Gyarados, as does Rotom-A. Calm Mind Jirachi, along with Celebi and Shaymin, beats Suicune, as do Celebi and Shaymin. Various bulky Steel-types, such as Metagross and Scizor, beat Kingdra.</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Reflect and Light Screen along with Light Clay can be used in conjunction to support the your team.; however, make sure to combine them with Light Clay to prolong the screens' life. Thunder Wave is always a great attack move for crippling switch-ins. It is especially useful on Starmie because Ground-types are deterred by the prospect of a STAB Surf or Hydro Pump. A set with Recover, three attacks (Surf, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam), and defensive EVs can be used to counter various threats, but is usually outclassed by Milotic since it must drop Rapid Spin.</p>
<p>For most sets, 252 Speed EVs should be used since the utility gained from tying opposing Starmie and Azelf outweighs any marginal improvement in survivability. Using If you wish to drop Starmie’s Speed, aim for 351 (Timid Gengar and Naive Infernape), 285 (Jolly Mamoswine), or 280 (neutral Lucario and Timid Heatran). In any case, remaining EVs should go in HP.</p> ((Let's face it, this shouldn't be mentioned because Starmie should always max Speed, and if you are using a set that might not want to, it's mentioned in that set's AC))
[Team Options]
<p>Most Starmie focus on one of two things: support or offense. As a result, good teammates will vary depending on which variant you are using. A general rule is that the Pokemon who are useful teammates will be those who can patch up Starmie’s shortcomings or take advantage of its benefits. For example, most Starmie are vulnerable to Pursuit, (especially when used by Choice Scarf Tyranitar,) and there is a small set of Pokemon who can switch into Starmie easily, including bulky Water- and Grass-type Pokemon s and Grasses, Blissey, and Snorlax. Thus, Pokemon who either lure and disable or match up well against these threats, like such as Lucario, Toxic/ or Will-O-Wisp Heatran, and Celebi, are good teammates. Starmie is also a team player, though, especially when it packs Rapid Spin. When it clears the field of Stealth Rock and Spikes, Pokemon such as Zapdos and Dragonite have much freer reign. Starmie can also patch up a team’s “Skarmory weakness” to an extent, allowing you to use Pokemon like Snorlax, Swampert, Hippowdon, and Celebi with more greater peace of mind.</p>
<p>Offensive Starmie sets appreciate a few different support options. They have issues with bulky Pokemon like Blissey;, Snorlax;, Vaporeon;, and defensive Suicune, and defensive Celebi, / and Shaymin. Incidentally, aAll of these Pokemon are grounded (almost by design, since all Flying-type Pokemon are weak to either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam, and the ones who also resist Hydro Pump are left with a 4x weakness to one of Starmie’s coverage attacks) and vulnerable to and hate the presence of Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Forretress, Skarmory, and Roserade are able to set up hazards easily against the aforementioned Pokemon, while Roserade is also a good switch-in into the for Choice Scarf Rotom-A who are commonly used to check Starmie. Perhaps the best offensive counter to Starmie is Kingdra, who can be EVed to never suffer a be 2HKOed from by Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. As So long as you limit the number of Dragon Dances Kingdra gets and lure Outrage, bulky Steel-type Pokemon like Scizor and Jirachi can deal with it. should be able to take it out, but you might have to lure an Outrage first. Choice Scarf Flygon outpaces Kingdra with less than two Dragon Dances, but should only be used as a last-resort check, as because it must lock itself into Outrage to kill KO Kingdra.</p>
<p>Defensive Starmie sets are designed to switch in repeatedly throughout a match, so covering its weaknesses with teammates becomes much more important. Starmie’s Grass-type weakness can be covered by Heatran, Skarmory, Scizor, and Zapdos, but Heatran and Scizor will have to be careful not to switch into a super effective coverage attack (Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire respectively). Various Ground- and Grass-type Pokemon like Swampert, Gliscor, Flygon, and Shaymin cover Starmie’s Electric-type weakness. Since most Electric-type attacks are also special attacks, Blissey and Snorlax are also decent candidates for the job. Even though it doesn’t resist Electric-type attacks, Heatran doesn’t mind switching into Rotom-A too much because of its natural bulk and Shadow Ball resistance, but it does have to beware of Hydro Pump from Rotom-W. Finally, Steel-type Pokemon as well as and Machamp don’t mind switching into Dark- and Bug-type attacks aimed at Starmie.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Blissey and Snorlax are the most reliable Starmie counters; their massive special bulk allows them to sponge Hydro Pump with ease while striking back with their typical moves. Toxic/Seismic Toss and Body Slam/Crunch. Snorlax also has Pursuit, which can KO a fleeing Starmie. Both of these Pokemon must be careful not to get Tricked a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, though. Kingdra also loves switching into Starmie and setting up Dragon Dance, since none of Starmie’s commonly used attacks can hit it super effectively. Finally, Lanturn resists Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, and Surf, and also doesn’t take much from the rare Grass Knot due to its low weight.</p>
<p>There are also quite a few Pokemon who aren’t assured a completely safe switch-in, either because they are weak to one of Starmie’s coverage attacks or because they are naturally frail, can't switch directly into one or many of Starmie's attacks, but can check Starmie it once they switch get in unscathed. Although most Shaymin and Celebi are 2HKOed by Ice Beam, they comfortably survive Ice Beam from full health and KO Starmie with STAB Grass-type attacks. It’s worth noting that it’s possible to EV both of these to survive two Life Orb Ice Beams with specially defensive spreads. Zapdos takes lots of damage from Hydro Pump or Ice Beam, but like the previously mentioned Grass-type Pokemon, can survive a single Ice Beam and OHKO Starmie in return. Even though Vaporeon and Suicune fear Thunderbolt, they can fight back with Hidden Power Electric or stall with Wish + and Protect (in Vaporeon’s case). Common Choice Scarf-holding Pokemon like users in Flygon, Rotom-A, and Jirachi all have super effective attacks to use against Starmie if they manage to switch in on a resisted or immune move (or with immunity, in Flygon’s case). Finally, to block Starmie’s Rapid Spin, the best candidate is usually Rotom-A, particularly Choice Scarf variants or defensive sets with Special Defense investment.</p>
<p>It would be remiss to complete a discussion of Starmie’s counters without a mention of Pursuit users. Tyranitar, Scizor, and Weavile all scare Starmie with their powerful Pursuits, even though they all have issues taking Starmie’s powerful Hydro Pump, which maims all three. Equipping a Choice Scarf to Tyranitar or Scizor will let them outpace Starmie, so if they switch into Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, or Recover, they don’t have to worry about surviving the incoming Hydro Pump as well. The higher Speed means they can “checkmate” Starmie; it must guess between staying in and potentially eating a Crunch or U-turn, or switching out and potentially getting trapped by Pursuit. Weavile doesn’t need to worry about the Speed issue, since it is naturally faster than Starmie.</p>
<p>Starmie is a fairly diverse Pokemon, capable of filling both offensive and support roles. Its high Speed, great coverage, and immediate power cement it as one of OU’s top special sweepers. Starmie can also take advantage of its resistances with a defensive set that supplies Rapid Spin support. Unfortunately, its Psychic subtype secondary typing gives it a weakness to Pursuit, and the move’s omnipresence means that Starmie must always be on the lookout. Despite this, Starmie is one of the most effective Pokemon in OU, and is an asset to almost any team.</p>
[SET]
name: Life Orb
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Recover / Rapid Spin
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie's blazing Speed and great type coverage make it a fearsome special sweeper who is especially potent as a late-game cleaner against offensive teams. Hydro Pump is a powerful STAB attack that 2HKOes Swampert, Jirachi, and Metagross. and It is so intense that it OHKOes most Tyranitar after one Stealth Rock switch-in and Scizor after two. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are used to hit the Pokemon who resist Water-type attacks, such as Celebi, Dragonite, Suicune, and Vaporeon. With Recover, Starmie can switch into Heatran and Infernape with greater ease while being able to heal off damage taken from Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil.</p>
<p>Starmie is also an excellent offensive spinner if it runs Rapid Spin over Recover. Rotom-A, the primary OU spinblocker, will be extremely reluctant to switch into Starmie, since Starmie’s Life Orb-boosted Hydro Pump OHKOes offensive variants and 2HKOes defensive versions. Forgoing Recover decreases Starmie’s longevity, but it may not get many chances to use Recover against offensive teams in the first place, while a successful spin can be the deciding factor in a battle.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Since Hydro Pump has less-than-stellar accuracy, Starmie can instead use Surf as a reliable attack to take down Pokemon like Infernape. However, tThe extra firepower that Hydro Pump provides, however, is needed to secure several OHKOs and 2HKOs, specifically against Swampert, Scizor, Tyranitar, and 252 HP Jirachi. If Starmie carries Rapid Spin in the last slot instead of Recover, it makes an effective anti-lead. It resists many of the attacks that common leads use (such as Infernape’s Fire Blast and Close Combat, Azelf’s Psychic and Fire Blast, and Metagross’s Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch) and can use Rapid Spin to simultaneously dispatch of Focus Sash users and get rid of any their set up entry hazards they have set up. This makes Starmie particularly effective in dealing with suicide leads like Infernape, Aerodactyl, and Azelf. Grass Knot is recommended over Thunderbolt or Ice Beam on a leading Starmie in order to OHKO Swampert. If Starmie is using Recover in the last slot, shifting a few EVs into its defenses will let Starmie switch with greater ease into Pokemon like Infernape and Heatran.</p>
<p>In spite of Starmie's formidable offensive prowess, it has problems getting past a few specific Pokemon. Blissey and Snorlax are the best counters for offensive Starmie; Blissey can use Seismic Toss and Toxic to wear down Starmie, while Snorlax can hit back with Body Slam, Crunch, and Pursuit. Speaking of Pursuit, Starmie is not as afraid of Pursuit as most other Psychic-types because it can maim or OHKO many common Pursuit users, such as Tyranitar and Scizor, with its STAB Hydro Pump. However, if Choice Scarf Tyranitar manages to switch into Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, or Recover, it can threaten Starmie with its higher Speed and both Pursuit and Crunch. Scizor survives Hydro Pump as long as it switches into Stealth Rock only once, but it must essentially sacrifice itself to take Starmie out. Finally, Choice Scarf users, such as Jirachi and Rotom-A, do well against Starmie if they switch into a resisted move.</p>
<p>This set is easy to use, especially if Starmie is forgoing the use of Rapid Spin. Stealth Rock is highly recommended since it has wide distribution and will weaken the opposing team, which makes Starmie’s late-game sweep easier. While Spikes are harder to set up, they can turn allow Starmie’s Hydro Pump from a 2HKO into an to OHKO against bulkier opponents instead of 2HKOing them. Finally, Toxic Spikes are valuable primarily because they allow Starmie with Recover to break through Blissey, but also to devastate Blissey aiming to wall Starmie; on top of that, they wear down Pokemon like Swampert, Suicune, and Snorlax.</p>
[SET]
name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Starmie is a fine choice for spinning away entry hazards. While Forretress, the other common OU spinner, is slower than Rotom-A and is neutered by Will-O-Wisp, Starmie is faster and can use STAB Surf to combat Rotom-A. Surf also provides a reliable weapon to use against Infernape and Heatran, whose hits are buffered by this set’s defensive investment. With Thunderbolt, Starmie is an excellent counter to Gyarados. Recover keeps Starmie at high health, which lets it perform its countering and spinning duties reliably throughout a match.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are tailored for survivability while still taking advantage of Starmie’s high Speed. 252 Speed EVs are used to Speed tie with opposing Starmie and Azelf, which gives you a chance to finish them off in a clutch scenario. If you are particularly concerned about Adamant Life Orb Dragon Dance Gyarados, using a spread of 136 HP / 156 Def / 216 Spe will ensure that Starmie is never KOed by +1 Earthquake or Stone Edge after Stealth Rock; this spread also stillallows maintains Starmie's ability to outpace Gengar and Infernape. However, mMax HP is more effective in most other instances, though, especially for switching into Heatran.</p>
<p>Grass-type Pokemon can also be particularly annoying since this set gives them a more-or-less free switch-in. Heatran, Skarmory, Forretress, Zapdos, and Flygon can all help deal with Shaymin and Celebi to an extent, but the versatility those Grass-types exhibit means it is impossible to find a perfect switch-in for all situations. Starmie can opt to carry Ice Beam instead of Thunderbolt to ward off these switch-ins Grass-type Pokemon, but it will no longer be able to counter Gyarados. (Oftentimes, the threat of Thunderbolt alone will often cause Gyarados to switch out. though). Regardless of whether it runs Ice Beam or Thunderbolt, this set’s low damage output means gives Dragon Dance Kingdra free reign to set up. can easily set up on it. Using a few bulky Steel-type Pokemon like Scizor, Metagross, or Skarmory can help patch up this weakness.</p>
<p>Although the bulky spread given is usually the most effective for using Rapid Spin since the defensive EVs prolong Starmie’slife, especially against bulky Stealth Rock-laying Pokemon, another option is to use a fully offensive spread with a Life Orb and Hydro Pump. That version obviously cannot switch into offensive Pokemon such as Heatran or Gyarados as well as the original; however, its Hydro Pump is over twice as powerful as the original’s Surf, which makes it much easier to break through defensive Rotom-A. The Life Orb variant appears remarkably similar to Starmie’s Life Orb sweeper set, but the two play differently. Using Recover over either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt allows Starmie to heal with impunity against many Pokemon common on stall teams, such as Blissey, Gyarados, Hippowdon, and Heatran, which increases its chance of spinning away entry hazards. The drawback is that Starmie performs slightly worse against offensive teams; if you drop Ice Beam, Celebi, Shaymin, and Dragonite will have a field day, while losing Thunderbolt means Gyarados and Suicune can set up. If your team can clear out those Pokemon, though, this alternative is a great middle ground between Starmie’s two most popular sets.</p> ((We discussed this on IRC and it's a bit redundant with the above paragraph))
<p>Pursuit users are not too bothersome for the Life Orb set due to its heavy investment in Special Attack, but they can prey on bulky Starmie since its Surf is relatively weak. If Tyranitar or Scizor aren’t substantially weakened, it’s impossible to “escape” from Pursuit., but tThere are a number of Pokemon you can use as teammates to compensate for Starmie’s Pursuit troubles, though demise. The classic example is Lucario, who can take advantage of a Choice-locked Pursuit to set up a potentially game-winning Swords Dance. However, if Starmie gets Pursuited in the early game, Lucario may have a tough time sweeping if it tries to set up immediately. Other Pokemon, such as Substitute Machamp, Skarmory, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, can also set up on Pursuit. If Scizor traps Starmie, Magnezone can turn the tables and trap it in return. Substitute + Will-O-Wisp Rotom-A is a good way to lure and cripple Tyranitar, but Scizor are usually not very eager to switch in until it has scouted Rotom-A’s set.</p>
[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
ability: Natural Cure
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With excellent Speed and respectable Special Attack as well as a diverse movepool, Choice Specs suits Starmie perfectly. STAB Hydro Pump deals massive damage to almost every Pokemon, including those with a resistance to the Water-type.; Tyranitar, Scizor, Lucario, Gengar, and Rotom-A are all OHKOed, while Swampert, Breloom, and Machamp are soundly 2HKOed. It will also 2HKO Even offensive Dragonite and Gyarados are 2HKOed with after Stealth Rock damage. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are fairly obvious choices to hit the Pokemon who resist Water-type attacks. Thunderbolt nets coverage on Vaporeon, Suicune, and Gyarados, while Ice Beam covers Dragonite, Celebi, and Shaymin. Finally, Trick lets Starmie cripple overzealous Blissey.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>This set’s goal and playstyle are similar to those of the Life Orb set, so naturally the sets share teammates and counters. One difference is that while Life Orb Starmie cannot do anything to Blissey, Choice Specs Starmie can cripple her by Tricking its Choice Specs away. Even though that heavily decreases Blissey’s effectiveness, it also puts a damper on Starmie’s ability to sweep, so Blissey should still be seen as a threat to this set. Although Hydro Pump cleanly OHKOes Tyranitar and Scizor, both common Pursuit users (Tyranitar and Scizor), Starmie is still vulnerable if it is caught while using Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, or Trick. To minimize this risk, Starmie should only use a move other than Hydro Pump or Surf when absolutely necessary. Also, Pokemon who can take advantage of a Choice-locked Pursuit, like Lucario, Infernape, Gyarados, and Machamp, are good teammates.</p>
<p>Since Choice Specs Hydro Pump is considerably more damaging than Life Orb Hydro Pump, Pokemon who appreciate Starmie’s ability to wear down common Pokemon who resist the Water-type are good teammates as well. Infernape, Heatran, and Gyarados benefit if Suicune is weakened, while Kingdra, Suicune, Gyarados, and Swampert appreciate the absence of Celebi and Shaymin. Rotom-A, Kingdra, and Dragonite are good ways to maintain momentum after Starmie has used Trick against Blissey and Vaporeon. Finally, it is still important to pack a few counters or checks to these Pokemon even though Starmie will be nailing them with a Hydro Pump that is more powerful than expected, since the weaken-and-sweep strategy means that your offensive core is especially vulnerable to them.</p>
<p>Starmie will be spamming Hydro Pump or Surf the majority of the time, so Pokemon who set up on Water those attacks are a distinct threat. Calm Mind Suicune, Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Dragon Dance Kingdra can easily set up if they switch in after Starmie has scored a KO. Celebi and Shaymin are both good answers to most Suicune and non-Bounce Gyarados sets. (watch out for Bounce Gyarados); Breloom is a great counter to Crocune, while Blissey easily takes on offensive Calm Mind sets. All three Grass-types also force Kingdra to use Outrage, which lets you beat it with a Steel-type like Metagross or Scizor. Calm Mind Jirachi is a good answer to offensive Suicune and most Dragon Dance Gyarados, and Scarf Rotom-A can check all three. A Gyarados of your own can buffer hits from opposing Gyarados and Kingdra with Intimidate, which lets another one of Starmie’s teammates handle them with greater ease.</p>
[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Modest / Timid
ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Putting a Choice Scarf onto Starmie allows it to effectively revenge kill many of the metagame's largest threats, including Gyarados, Gengar, and Heatran, even after their own Speed boosts. with +1 Speed or their own Choice Scarves. This Speed, combined with Starmie's good Special Attack and movepool, makes it a great check to all of these threats, by stopping them from sweeping your team. Surf is a reliable STAB attack and lets Starmie revenge kill Gengar and Heatran, while Ice Beam and Thunderbolt lets it revenge do the same to Dragonite and Thunderbolt KOes Gyarados, respectively. Trick is used in the last slot to cripple such counters as counters like Blissey, Vaporeon, Suicune, and Celebi, and also lets Starmie serve as a last-ditch check to Pokemon threatening to sweep your team.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Since Starmie doesn’t have access to a boosting item with this set, a Modest nature is the primary option recommended in order to compensate for the lost power. However, a Timid nature is an option if you are concerned about outpacing Choice Scarf Gengar and Scarf Infernape (or more commonly, Life Orb variants of the two Gengar and Life Orb Infernape after Starmie has Tricked away its Scarf). Thunderbolt and Ice Beam will still OHKO Gyarados and Dragonite, but Surf and Hydro Pump will be noticeably weaker against neutral targets.</p>
<p>This set can also be used effectively in the lead slot. If you decide to do that, using Rapid Spin over either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt will allow Starmie to spin away Stealth Rock after it has Tricked its Choice Scarf onto the opposing Stealth Rock lead; (Metagross, and Swampert, and even Azelf are good targets for this strategy). Additionally, if Starmie is matched up against Forretress or Hippowdon, using Trick on the first turn will usually let you catch a stall team's Blissey or Vaporeon, crippling it for the rest of the match. If you decide not to immediately use Trick, Starmie will be retain its role as an effective revenge killer in the later stages of a match. Unfortunately, leading Choice Scarf Starmie lose to U-turn Azelf, Machamp, and Roserade, so you should also carry Pokemon that can beat those leads.</p>
<p>As with the Choice Specs set, Pokemon who resist Water-type attacks will easily set up on Hydro Pump or Surf. This is made far worse here, however, because of the lack of power behind this set. Breloom and Suicune can now take advantage of Starmie. However, there are a few differences when comparing Pokemon who set up against the Choice Specs set and Pokemon who set up on this set. Pokemon such as Suicune and Breloom have an easier time setting up against this set due to its lower damage output. On the other hand, Dragonite and Gyarados cannot exploit this set as readily. With a Choice Scarf, Starmie will be faster than Dragonite and Gyarados even when they have a Dragon Dance, which means it can switch out then immediately switch back in to revenge kill.</p><p>However, it is still helpful to have Pokemon who can immediately take on these threats. Swampert beats Dragon Dance Dragonite if it’s at full health, and plenty of other Pokemon can force an Outrage so you can take Dragonite out with a Steel-type Pokemon. Choice Scarf Jirachi cleanly outpaces Dragonite and can revenge kill it with Ice Punch, (be careful not to use Iron Head against Dragonite since its ability prevents flinching). Scizor’s Bullet Punch strips off over half of Dragonite’s health, and Lucario’s ExtremeSpeed does quite a bit as well. Bulky Calm Mind Jirachi defeats Gyarados, as does Rotom-A. Calm Mind Jirachi, along with Celebi and Shaymin, beats Suicune, as do Celebi and Shaymin. Various bulky Steel-types, such as Metagross and Scizor, beat Kingdra.</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Reflect and Light Screen along with Light Clay can be used in conjunction to support the your team.; however, make sure to combine them with Light Clay to prolong the screens' life. Thunder Wave is always a great attack move for crippling switch-ins. It is especially useful on Starmie because Ground-types are deterred by the prospect of a STAB Surf or Hydro Pump. A set with Recover, three attacks (Surf, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam), and defensive EVs can be used to counter various threats, but is usually outclassed by Milotic since it must drop Rapid Spin.</p>
<p>For most sets, 252 Speed EVs should be used since the utility gained from tying opposing Starmie and Azelf outweighs any marginal improvement in survivability. Using If you wish to drop Starmie’s Speed, aim for 351 (Timid Gengar and Naive Infernape), 285 (Jolly Mamoswine), or 280 (neutral Lucario and Timid Heatran). In any case, remaining EVs should go in HP.</p> ((Let's face it, this shouldn't be mentioned because Starmie should always max Speed, and if you are using a set that might not want to, it's mentioned in that set's AC))
[Team Options]
<p>Most Starmie focus on one of two things: support or offense. As a result, good teammates will vary depending on which variant you are using. A general rule is that the Pokemon who are useful teammates will be those who can patch up Starmie’s shortcomings or take advantage of its benefits. For example, most Starmie are vulnerable to Pursuit, (especially when used by Choice Scarf Tyranitar,) and there is a small set of Pokemon who can switch into Starmie easily, including bulky Water- and Grass-type Pokemon s and Grasses, Blissey, and Snorlax. Thus, Pokemon who either lure and disable or match up well against these threats, like such as Lucario, Toxic/ or Will-O-Wisp Heatran, and Celebi, are good teammates. Starmie is also a team player, though, especially when it packs Rapid Spin. When it clears the field of Stealth Rock and Spikes, Pokemon such as Zapdos and Dragonite have much freer reign. Starmie can also patch up a team’s “Skarmory weakness” to an extent, allowing you to use Pokemon like Snorlax, Swampert, Hippowdon, and Celebi with more greater peace of mind.</p>
<p>Offensive Starmie sets appreciate a few different support options. They have issues with bulky Pokemon like Blissey;, Snorlax;, Vaporeon;, and defensive Suicune, and defensive Celebi, / and Shaymin. Incidentally, aAll of these Pokemon are grounded (almost by design, since all Flying-type Pokemon are weak to either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam, and the ones who also resist Hydro Pump are left with a 4x weakness to one of Starmie’s coverage attacks) and vulnerable to and hate the presence of Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Forretress, Skarmory, and Roserade are able to set up hazards easily against the aforementioned Pokemon, while Roserade is also a good switch-in into the for Choice Scarf Rotom-A who are commonly used to check Starmie. Perhaps the best offensive counter to Starmie is Kingdra, who can be EVed to never suffer a be 2HKOed from by Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. As So long as you limit the number of Dragon Dances Kingdra gets and lure Outrage, bulky Steel-type Pokemon like Scizor and Jirachi can deal with it. should be able to take it out, but you might have to lure an Outrage first. Choice Scarf Flygon outpaces Kingdra with less than two Dragon Dances, but should only be used as a last-resort check, as because it must lock itself into Outrage to kill KO Kingdra.</p>
<p>Defensive Starmie sets are designed to switch in repeatedly throughout a match, so covering its weaknesses with teammates becomes much more important. Starmie’s Grass-type weakness can be covered by Heatran, Skarmory, Scizor, and Zapdos, but Heatran and Scizor will have to be careful not to switch into a super effective coverage attack (Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire respectively). Various Ground- and Grass-type Pokemon like Swampert, Gliscor, Flygon, and Shaymin cover Starmie’s Electric-type weakness. Since most Electric-type attacks are also special attacks, Blissey and Snorlax are also decent candidates for the job. Even though it doesn’t resist Electric-type attacks, Heatran doesn’t mind switching into Rotom-A too much because of its natural bulk and Shadow Ball resistance, but it does have to beware of Hydro Pump from Rotom-W. Finally, Steel-type Pokemon as well as and Machamp don’t mind switching into Dark- and Bug-type attacks aimed at Starmie.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Blissey and Snorlax are the most reliable Starmie counters; their massive special bulk allows them to sponge Hydro Pump with ease while striking back with their typical moves. Toxic/Seismic Toss and Body Slam/Crunch. Snorlax also has Pursuit, which can KO a fleeing Starmie. Both of these Pokemon must be careful not to get Tricked a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, though. Kingdra also loves switching into Starmie and setting up Dragon Dance, since none of Starmie’s commonly used attacks can hit it super effectively. Finally, Lanturn resists Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, and Surf, and also doesn’t take much from the rare Grass Knot due to its low weight.</p>
<p>There are also quite a few Pokemon who aren’t assured a completely safe switch-in, either because they are weak to one of Starmie’s coverage attacks or because they are naturally frail, can't switch directly into one or many of Starmie's attacks, but can check Starmie it once they switch get in unscathed. Although most Shaymin and Celebi are 2HKOed by Ice Beam, they comfortably survive Ice Beam from full health and KO Starmie with STAB Grass-type attacks. It’s worth noting that it’s possible to EV both of these to survive two Life Orb Ice Beams with specially defensive spreads. Zapdos takes lots of damage from Hydro Pump or Ice Beam, but like the previously mentioned Grass-type Pokemon, can survive a single Ice Beam and OHKO Starmie in return. Even though Vaporeon and Suicune fear Thunderbolt, they can fight back with Hidden Power Electric or stall with Wish + and Protect (in Vaporeon’s case). Common Choice Scarf-holding Pokemon like users in Flygon, Rotom-A, and Jirachi all have super effective attacks to use against Starmie if they manage to switch in on a resisted or immune move (or with immunity, in Flygon’s case). Finally, to block Starmie’s Rapid Spin, the best candidate is usually Rotom-A, particularly Choice Scarf variants or defensive sets with Special Defense investment.</p>
<p>It would be remiss to complete a discussion of Starmie’s counters without a mention of Pursuit users. Tyranitar, Scizor, and Weavile all scare Starmie with their powerful Pursuits, even though they all have issues taking Starmie’s powerful Hydro Pump, which maims all three. Equipping a Choice Scarf to Tyranitar or Scizor will let them outpace Starmie, so if they switch into Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, or Recover, they don’t have to worry about surviving the incoming Hydro Pump as well. The higher Speed means they can “checkmate” Starmie; it must guess between staying in and potentially eating a Crunch or U-turn, or switching out and potentially getting trapped by Pursuit. Weavile doesn’t need to worry about the Speed issue, since it is naturally faster than Starmie.</p>
Cheers.
GP Check 2/2
thanks R_D, really helpful and thorough changes—some notes:
swapped the sentences with changes in the first paragraph of the LO set around, because "it is so intense" seems more suited to describe Hydro Pump's power against bulkier Pokemon rather than against Tyranitar/Scizor
added a hyphen here because it's a compound adjective
didn't like the Spikes 2HKO/OHKO change since I think it's more appropriate to make the subject Spikes
the original placement of "alone" could potentially be ambiguous placement in this sentence so I put in "just" instead
moved the mention of dropping Speed EVs to AC of the Rapid Spin set
unsure what you were going for with the semicolons in the second paragraph of Team Options, but I just simplified the sentence from the original and used commas instead
fixed straight quotes
ready for upload
swapped the sentences with changes in the first paragraph of the LO set around, because "it is so intense" seems more suited to describe Hydro Pump's power against bulkier Pokemon rather than against Tyranitar/Scizor
added a hyphen here because it's a compound adjective
LO additional comments said:
didn't like the Spikes 2HKO/OHKO change since I think it's more appropriate to make the subject Spikes
the original placement of "alone" could potentially be ambiguous placement in this sentence so I put in "just" instead
spinner AC P2 said:
moved the mention of dropping Speed EVs to AC of the Rapid Spin set
unsure what you were going for with the semicolons in the second paragraph of Team Options, but I just simplified the sentence from the original and used commas instead
fixed straight quotes
ready for upload
Hmm, maybe mention a caveat about the Rapid Spinner's defensive set still being KO'ed by Bounce from +1 LO Gyara?