Pokémon Starmie

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DarklingNinja

DarklingNinja

250px-121Starmie.png



The weather Nerf has definitely affected Starmie for the worst. Not being able to rely on a 100% accurate thunder from constant rain as well as a boosted surf or Hydro Pump severely hurts Starmie's attacking potential. Also with Greninja being a faster water sweeper, combined with protean to help its durability by switching types prior to an attack makes Starmie a much less favorable as an attacker in comparison to Greninja. The Hydro Pump nerf has also hurt Starmie, making it hard to justify running hydro pump over surf in most cases. The Defog buff also hurts Starmie use as a rapid spinner. The increase in bulky pokemon has also hurt Starmie, combining the nerf in Starmie's attacking power makes it even worse.

Even with this Starmie still stands as the best rapid spin support in the game, and with entry hazards being even more prevalent then ever before Starmie will still be in high demand. Even though Defog eliminates more then rapid spin, defog also has the potential to hurt entry hazards that you have set up. So if your team sets up entry hazards as well rapid spin is a better choice over defog. Even though some Mega pokemon now out speed Starmie, Starmie does not take up a mega slot on your team, and the fact some pokemon need a mega evo just to compete with Starmie's speed shows how great Starmie's speed still remains. Natural cure also gives Starmie a special Niche as a status absorber. Starmie can also put up double screens quick and easy. With access to thunder wave, Toxic and confuse ray it makes Starmie a great choice for a status inflicter. Last but not least Starmie still stands as one of the best revenge killers in the game and can wreak havoc in the end game.

Even though this gen us definitely a downfall for Starmie, I don't see Starmie Falling from OU. Even in the stall and bulk infested meta of Gold and Silver Starmie remained in OU. Starmie still has the utility, move pool and stats to compete in OU, though Starmie may not be as powerful as he was in the last gen, Starmie will still be a force to be reckoned with.


Potential Movesets


BaitMie

Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Rapid Spin
- Trick
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam

At first look many would glide right over this move set and think it makes no sense. Before you do that let me explain. The basic Premise of this set is to force people to switch out their current pokemon and use Starmie to bait out walls that would usually counter Starmie. With the heavily defense oriented shift this gen has taken and all the ghost pokemon this is not that hard to find a candidate for this. Not just that but with Choice Scarf Starmie can also come in and grant you a surprise revenge kill against pokemon who expect to be fast then Starmie ( Thunderbolt to Greninja, Ice Beam to Novian and Dragon dance boosted pokemon ). Going to go into a much more detailed analysis now :P

Lets start off with Analytic (Raises the power of all moves by 30% if the wielder moves last). Most know of Starmie Speed and power, and start off by switching out their current pokemon. T-tar would get rip up from a 30%-40% boosted Hydro Pump even after the Nerf, then Starmie would get to hit T-tar first again for a double Hydro Pump. Have yet to do the damage calcs but I would believe this would take out the non-spD oriented T-tars. Hydro Pump Also severely damages other pursuit uses such as Scizor, and a Scizor that is not specialized in SpD will be 2HKO'd in most cases by this. Aegislash is Also servely Damaged by A 30%-40% Boosted Hydro Pump.

Psyshock is also a nice move to hit Ghost Types as well as the SpD walls. Mega-Gar would take heavy damage and I am pretty sure OHKO in most cases from a 30%-40% boosted Psyshock. Even if it didn't this brings me to the choice scarf possibility over life orb.

Choice Scarf, this would allow Starmie to do 2 very nice things. One it would allow it to out speed threats that are faster than it that attempted to switch into it thinking they could take a hit then out speed it for an easy kill. Mega-Aero, Jolteon, Greninja all fall into this category. The thing is, none of them can survive a 30% boosted hydro pump followed by a second hydro pump. Jolteon and Gengar cannot even withstand the double Psyshock. You have 4 of Starmie's counters taken care of right there. That leads me to trick, Special Walls and walls are running around every where and the thing is they all would be rendered almost useless with a choice scarf. With all the Walls running around it in this gen it should not be hard to find a great candidate to send choice scarf over to in exchange for some tasty leftovers. Now you have neutered an opponents wall that would have checked or countered Starmie and made Starmie more durable. If yoru using Life orb thunderbolt or ice beam will do you more good then trick.


Rapid Spin, why not Rapid spin? with all the defense oriented teams relying on passive damage having a nice spinner is awesome. Which makes it even easier to bait out those annoying spin blockers and rip into them with an analytic boosted attack.

Basically this set makes it so there is no guaranteed way for your opponent to make a correct choice on how to deal with your Starmie. Do they switch to a faster sweeper? but if its faster because of choice scarf the sweeper may not survive the boosted attacks followed by another hit. If I try to pursuit trap it with a pursuit trapper, can the pursuit trapper survive a double hit? Do I switch to a spin blocker? but my spin blocker could get ripped apart by a boosted psyshock or hydro pump. Do I send out my wall? or is starmie going to trick it and make it useless for the rest of the game? The only sure fire way to defend against this set is a sucker punch. So if your team doesn't have a sucker puncher this move set is going to cost you a lot to go up against.

Putting your opponent in this kind of position where they have no clue what the right move to make is, and just have to guess basically is just what any player strides for. This set allows Starmie to use the defensive oriented shift to its advantage rather then being a disadvantage for it.







Life Orb Analytic ( Move set and Analysis Created by Shroomisaur) (CURRENTLY FAVORED MOVESET)

Item: Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt

Rapid Spin is Starmie's biggest asset, allowing it to support your team by removing hazards. One of Starmie's biggest advantages over other common users of Rapid Spin is that it can defeat every spinblocker in the game with the correct coverage move. Even the most defensive Ghost-types cannot safely switch into an Analytic, Life Orb boosted attack.

STAB Hydro Pump is Starmie's strongest option and deals heavy damage to the ever-present Aegislash. Ice Beam is also a must-have attack, as it deals with the other new spinblockers, Gourgeist and Trevenant, on top of old threats such as Garchomp. The final slot is a tossup between Psyshock and Thunderbolt, but Psyshock is currently the better option because it is Starmie's only way to deal solid damage to Mega Venusaur and Blissey/Chansey, as well as guarantee an OHKO on Roserade. Thunderbolt can KO Gyarados, but it will be more useful once Jellicent is released post-Pokebank.

EDIT: a few more calcs to illustrate Psyshock's usefulness:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Roserade: 164-195 (50.61 - 60.18%) -- 86.33% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Roserade: 382-452 (117.9 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 281-331 (43.09 - 50.76%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur: 91-109 (25 - 29.94%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 179-213 (49.17 - 58.51%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO







Offensive Rapid Spinner

Item: Life Orb / Leftovers
Nature: Timid
Ability: Analytic / Natural Cure
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Moves
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Bulky Rapid Spinner

Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Iv: 0 Atk

Moves
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Recover

As of right now I see no reason to change the set up from the gen V Bulky Rapid Spinner. To be fair if a Bulky Rapid spinner is what you need Megatouise is definitely better


Choice Specs

Item: Choice Specs
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Moves
- Rapid Spin / Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Surf / Hydro Pump


Choice Scarf

Item: Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Moves
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt / Psyshock
- Surf / Hydro Pump


Rapid Screens

Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
Evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Moves
- Rapid Spin
- Light Screen / Reflect
- Scald
- Recover / Thunder Wave / Confuse Ray
 
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Starmie isn't what it once was. It's really lost a lot from this transition-more so than the previous ones. For one, rain is not the offensive presence it was last gen. Hydro Pump is not doing enough enough to KO things it used to, especially with the new offensive bulk that has been brought in. The metagame has slowed down, and gotten bulkier.

Psychic typing is weaker than ever, largely because of the presence of T-tar, who is running rampant thanks to the nerf of weather (allowing it to fit into any team), assault vest, and its ability to counter Talonflame. In fact, Psychic has become a huge liability because of the devastating power of ghosts this gen. If I could sum up this whole metagame in two words I would say "Priority" and I would say "Ghosts". Mega Gengar outspeeds it, TalonFlame takes an enormous chunk out of it, Aegislash sets up on it, and we now have more sturdy rapid spinners, as well as defog. Also, doesn't Greninja outspeed and OHKO with Dark Pulse?Last gen was namely centered around Water and Fighting attacks, both of which starmie resisted.

Also,
Rotom-W.
Rotom-W.
Rotom-W.

TL;DR: Starmie is shredded by the most common threats right now, and lost its best assets from last gen. I personally think it's going UU this gen.
 
I would also like to point out that Mega Blastoise can serve as a decent Rapid Spinner as an alternative to Starmie. Mega Blastoise has the bulk, and isn't weak to Pursuit/Crunch. Only thing that sucks is that he will take up a Mega slot, but then again, it just depends on what your team needs. Lets not even get started with the fact that Mega Launcher and his base 135 special attack is nothing to scoff at either, in terms of offense.

As for Starmie, what kinds of threats does he handle now, or has that not changed much? I feel like he's become a weaker spinner with the dominance of Tyranitar and Ghost Pokemon. But hey, at least he can check Blaziken, right?
 
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welll starmie over mega blastoise just might be worth it anyway because of its much higher speed. Sure starmie has weakened but it still has the tools to get the job done. Been fine before drizzle teams were a thing (gen 4 and earlier) but still. Hydro pump's nerf in power bearly makes it worth the risk to use anymore because of how often it can miss so surf/scald is prob a better option. Has been using those 2 moves before anyway.

Think its still gonna be fine in ou. Its just going to be use alittle less now.
 
Mocha said:
I would also like to point out that Mega Blastoise can serve as a decent Rapid Spinner as an alternative to Starmie. Mega Blastoise has the bulk, and isn't weak to Pursuit/Crunch. Only thing that sucks is that he will take up a Mega slot, but then again, it just depends on what your team needs. Lets not even get started with the fact that Mega Launcher and his base 135 special attack is nothing to scoff at either, in terms of offense.

As for Starmie, what kinds of threats does he handle now, or has that not changed much? I feel like he's become a weaker spinner with the dominance of Tyranitar and Ghost Pokemon. But hey, at least he can check Blaziken, right?
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Is it confirmed that Hydro Pump gets bumped up by Mega Launcher, or was that just rumor?
 
Starmie also doesn't occupy your mega slot and is still probably the next best thing after Megatoise and Excadrill this generation so if nothing else, it still has a niche in this generation as a spinner if your hazards mean that much to you.

It probably won't be top 15 but it'll still be a good Pokemon. I don't see Starmie falling to UU, its utility is too good to be there I think.
 
Ropeburn said:
Is it confirmed that Hydro Pump gets bumped up by Mega Launcher, or was that just rumor?
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As far as I've seen, I have seen rumors that Hydro Pump does not get boosted, but I have not seen this confirmed true or false yet. I personally do not think the boost counts though, since it's not an Aura or Pulse move - unless they weren't clear on that description.
 
Ropeburn said:
<doom and gloom snip snip>I personally think it's going UU this gen.
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I agree with you that the meta is definitely not in Starmie's favor currently, with powerful threats like Talonflame, Greninja, and Noivern running around, and Ghost-types everywhere. Starmie also has to deal with the 5-10% power drop on its staple moves like Ice Beam and Hydro Pump.

However, it's not so bad that Starmie is ineffective, and Starmie is still an amazing offensive spinner. While there are plenty of Ghost-types currently, none of them can safely switch into Starmie since an Analytic, LO boosted attack will 2HKO even the most bulky spinblocker:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Trevenant: 250-294 (66.84 - 78.6%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Trevenant: 190-226 (50.8 - 60.42%) - even Sitrus variants stand a good chance to be 2HKO'd
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-SuperSize: 351-413 (93.85 - 110.42%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 343-406 (130.91 - 154.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So opposing spinblockers can't safely switch in. TTar is just as much of a pain as he was last gen, but now Mega Gengar can trap Starmie too. Starmie might be easier to revenge this gen, but I don't see it leaving OU any time soon because it still does it job well.
 
Starmie was comfortably OU in Gen 4 which had no rain dominated metagame and was actually probably one of the most Pursuit heavy metagames ever. Do people forget that Drizzle Politoed was not always a thing? It's a blip on the overarching generational metagame, one which Starmie has always had a place in. It will not be going UU this gen. Having a blistering fast Rapid Spin combined with the constant threat of coverage is a competitive players dream in terms of prediction and that's why its always been a staple.

The special nerf is definitely not something Starmie needed, its scraping the bottom the barrel as it is, but it can handle it. If Greninja had truly gotten Rapid Spin I think it would have a chance at going UU 100%, but it didn't, and in a way I'm happy. Go Starmie. Also Dazzling Gleam is almost entirely worthless since the only common dark types are Tyranitar and Hydregion, both hit harder/hard enough by Surf/Ice Beam. Starmie gained nothing this gen, that's just the truth lol. Here's hoping for a Mega evo!

-Does the HUYAH sound from the anime-
 
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The Defog buff hurts Starmie way more than the weather nerf does. Starmie was practically mandatory in any offensive team that had even a couple of mons weak to SR prior gen 6, but the improved Defog has stripped it from this niche.
I mean if I'm running something like Volcarona why would I risk my rapid spinner to get cockblocked by ghosts types (especially M-Gengar and Aegislash) when I can just use Defog with little to no risk?
 
It's a shame, Starmie is one of my favorite pokemon, but this Gen will be a real test. I'd say it's 50/50 about whether it will remain OU or drop a tier.
 
Garchompi said:
The Defog buff hurts Starmie way more than the weather nerf does. Starmie was practically mandatory in any offensive team that had even a couple of mons weak to SR prior gen 6, but the improved Defog has stripped it from this niche.
I mean if I'm running something like Volcarona why would I risk my rapid spinner to get cockblocked by ghosts types (especially M-Gengar and Aegislash) when I can just use Defog with little to no risk?
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This. If you really need rocks gone, then you're better off with a defogger instead of a spinner.
 
If there's something you really need Rocks gone that badly for, that Pokémon you're supporting is more than likely a Talonflame, Volcarona, or Dragonite, all of whom absolutely love having hazards up on the other side of the field to turn some 3HKOs into 2HKOs or possible OHKOs into guaranteed OHKOs. Using Defog essentially limits their damage output, which is why a spinner may be preferred.
 
I always used the bulky spinner set since I really dislike losing Starmie to a pursuiter after spinning once. I imagine this gen will make no difference. Actually, Scizor seems to be even more dominant since it counters fairies so well and T-Tar seems to be rising too with the help of assault vest. I run mine with Reflect, which is so useful againts these threats. I think it loses about half health from CB Scizor's Pursuit when switching, so it can just stay in safely behind Reflect and burn it if it stays in. Plus, Reflect neuters Baton Passing Blaziken somewhat. Unfortunately, bulky Starmie can't OHKO Blaziken with Scald and has a small chance to OHKO with Surf, so it's up in the air. I like the burn chance though, and Starmie still counters Infernape like a champ.

Edit: wait I forget the Techician boost to 60bp, so it can't stay in indefinitely, but does prevent it from being trapped.
 
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Zazazaki said:
It's a shame, Starmie is one of my favorite pokemon, but this Gen will be a real test. I'd say it's 50/50 about whether it will remain OU or drop a tier.
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Ropeburn said:
Starmie isn't what it once was. It's really lost a lot from this Starmie is shredded by the most common threats right now, and lost its best assets from last gen. I personally think it's going UU this gen.
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I would have to disagree, though Starmie is not as powerful it still has more then enough tools to justify it being in OU
 
Arcticblast said:
If there's something you really need Rocks gone that badly for, that Pokémon you're supporting is more than likely a Talonflame, Volcarona, or Dragonite, all of whom absolutely love having hazards up on the other side of the field to turn some 3HKOs into 2HKOs or possible OHKOs into guaranteed OHKOs. Using Defog essentially limits their damage output, which is why a spinner may be preferred.
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Not necessarily. You can put rocks up early on, let them accumulate damage, and then defog only when you're bringing in your big bad sweeper. I've played with both a spinner and a defogger and I feel like spinning is going to be really rare in OU and ubers.
 
Arcticblast said:
If there's something you really need Rocks gone that badly for, that Pokémon you're supporting is more than likely a Talonflame, Volcarona, or Dragonite, all of whom absolutely love having hazards up on the other side of the field to turn some 3HKOs into 2HKOs or possible OHKOs into guaranteed OHKOs. Using Defog essentially limits their damage output, which is why a spinner may be preferred.
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You could just Defog the opponent's SR and then set up your own rocks. It's either that or having to deal with the incredibly strong spinblockers XY has brought to us. Both M-Gar and Aegislash rip Starmie to shreds and will never give it a chance to spin. And let's not even get started on Gourgeist and Trevenant who invalidate Starmie's Scald/Psyshock set. Oh and of course Jellicent is still around.

If this was Gen 5 I think Starmie would have been preferable to Defog because it could more or less deal with all the common spinblockers relately well, but now? Not so much.
 
effyouzion said:
Not necessarily. You can put rocks up early on, let them accumulate damage, and then defog only when you're bringing in your big bad sweeper. I've played with both a spinner and a defogger and I feel like spinning is going to be really rare in OU and ubers.
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Why do you have to play around like that? That alone can warrant the use of a Spinner on a team, since they do not have to limit themselves to timing it perfectly and can just get rid of the hazards ASAP so you can bring in your sweeper without waiting for the opponent to take enough damage. Most of the hazard damage the aforementioned sweepers need to acquire crucial KOes are on walls that almost always have passive recovery, so while you wait for the 'perfect' opportunity, they have more time to regain the health they lost, rendering your careful planning moot.

I never Defogged even with a Talonflame on my team, I spin with Excadrill who oh so happens to shit on Rock-types. Spinners can do more than just spin, you simply have to adjust it to your team's needs. Starmie is a spinner that has strong offensive presence and / or survivability thanks to high Speed, coverage and offenses + Recover & Natural Cure. There's also Mega-Blastoise who can Dark Pulse the shit out of any daring Ghost-type. Spinners will continue to see use, perhaps even more so than Defoggers due to their (generally) superior defenses and tend to not stack weaknesses for your precious sweeper.
 
Mega Gengar isn't as scary as people here are making out.

Unless they've already mega evolved, Starmie still beats it.

Mega Gengar can't switch in regardless.

Tyranitar is still the number 1 problem, and unfortunately is everywhere. Many are running specially defensive sets now too, which is especially bad for Starmie.

Also personally think Dazzling Gleam isn't worth a slot on any moveset. What is it hitting harder? The only dark types are Tyranitar who is hit harder by Surf/Hydro Pump. Greninja who is faster and changes his type anyway. Dragons are nearly all hit harder by Ice Beam, Fighting types nearly all hit harder by a psychic attack. The only real thing you are nailing harder is Hydreigon who as it stands seems rare, so it doesn't seem worth it.
 
It still fortunately has versatility which makes it hard to predict and can benefit a team in more ways than just Rapid Spin. It can fortunately get Dual Screens or a single screen up fast, which is another reason you may not prefer Defog. And Natural Cure also makes him a good status switch in. And let us not forget how handy a fast Thunder Wave can be. Hell, maybe support Starmie should start carrying Shed Shell of all things for Mega Gengar, and it can always Scarf Psychic him if need be. Actually, Starmie's naturally high speed and great movepool makes it a fantastic revenge killer, or even late game as the only priority it fears is Sucker Punch. It resists Mach Punch, Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch.
 
using the megas' song "the quick and the blue"
will this be the day that he falls?

i think starmie MAY lose his OU spot
 
While Offensive Starmie has certainly lost its touch thanks to Excadrill's unbanning and general superiority as an offensive spinner and Greninja and Rotom playing the role of offensive Water generally better (not to mention the ridiculous amount of priority undermining its speed), Bulky Starmie (one of my favorite sets from previous Generations) is still a justifiable set due to its ability to threaten Ghost type switch ins with a burn from Scald (Aegislash,Gourgeist and Trevenant all really hate burn, T-tar doesnt appreciate it either) or a nasty Psyshock to the face (I'm looking at you Gengar) all while being able to Recover at will. Yeah definetley still OU worthy. Natural Cure also gives it a niche as a status absorber.
 
Olly said:
Mega Gengar isn't as scary as people here are making out.

Unless they've already mega evolved, Starmie still beats it.

Mega Gengar can't switch in regardless.

Tyranitar is still the number 1 problem, and unfortunately is everywhere. Many are running specially defensive sets now too, which is especially bad for Starmie.

Also personally think Dazzling Gleam isn't worth a slot on any moveset. What is it hitting harder? The only dark types are Tyranitar who is hit harder by Surf/Hydro Pump. Greninja who is faster and changes his type anyway. Dragons are nearly all hit harder by Ice Beam, Fighting types nearly all hit harder by a psychic attack. The only real thing you are nailing harder is Hydreigon who as it stands seems rare, so it doesn't seem worth it.
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Yeah I am starting to feel the same way about dazzle Gleam may remove it from the move sets later tonight, ice beam is just superior in every way
 
Punchshroom said:
Why do you have to play around like that? That alone can warrant the use of a Spinner on a team, since they do not have to limit themselves to timing it perfectly and can just get rid of the hazards ASAP so you can bring in your sweeper without waiting for the opponent to take enough damage. Most of the hazard damage the aforementioned sweepers need to acquire crucial KOes are on walls that almost always have passive recovery, so while you wait for the 'perfect' opportunity, they have more time to regain the health they lost, rendering your careful planning moot.

I never Defogged even with a Talonflame on my team, I spin with Excadrill who oh so happens to shit on Rock-types. Spinners can do more than just spin, you simply have to adjust it to your team's needs. Starmie is a spinner that has strong offensive presence and / or survivability thanks to high Speed, coverage and offenses + Recover & Natural Cure. There's also Mega-Blastoise who can Dark Pulse the shit out of any daring Ghost-type. Spinners will continue to see use, perhaps even more so than Defoggers due to their (generally) superior defenses and tend to not stack weaknesses for your precious sweeper.
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Spinners have better defenses than defoggers? Really? That's just ridiculous to say and shows me you haven't even looked into the issue. Skarmory, Latias, Gliscor and Scizor are all defoggers, and not only do they all have great defenses for OU, but they all have reliable recovery. If you were arguing that spinners could have a place for hyper offensive teams (like the first guy I quoted), you would have a fair point. A small point, because hyper offense isn't exactly a dominant playstyle on Pokebank right now, but still you wouldn't be incorrect. But to say spinners have better defenses is just wrong.
 
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