Pokémon Starmie

[effyouzion]

Cha no, don't knock it til you try it

btw the BulkMie set is just one of many, and even so those calcs aren't the greatest b/c Mega Medicham sure as shit ain't gonna stay in on risking getting clipped at the balls by Scald, but anyway I digress, here's the LO set against MegaCham:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 164-192 (62.8 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also with Aegi gone, Starmie is now the #1 spinner so far as beating spinblockers goes, and Analytic means unless your name is Chansey or SDef Gastro good luck safely switching in to a LO Analytic boosted attack:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 252-299 (69.2 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

look at dem calcs, clean 2HKO on phys def Mega Venu, let's see that wanky Excadrill do that:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Also les look at some top-tier shit, see how Starmie does there:

S-TIER:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 515-608 (160.9 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yeah I know Sucker Punch is a clean OHKO, that's not the point -- have fun switching into that)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 257-304 (85.6 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (100% after SR)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 164-192 (55 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (which, unboosted, Adamant Zard-X Dragon Claw fails to OHKO at full health, so lookie who wins 1v1 vs the one of the scariest mons out there)

A:

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 333-393 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (no free switch ins for you, Azu)
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 247-292 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

etc etc

My point being, Starmie is now the best offensive spinner in OU, yeah there's other shit like offensive Defoggers in the Lati twins and Exca's not bad either, but again they all check different shit and outside of hazard removal Starmie and Exca aren't even remotely comparable, with Aegi gone Starmie is the numero uno spinner in regards to beating spinblockers, which for an offensive spinner is a pretty big fckin deal. Starmie outspeeds and beats a lot of top-tier shit 1v1, and even what it doesn't (Bishart, MMawile), almost nothing can safely switch in to the LO Analytic set without taking massive damage. So to say Starmie is outclassed is, at this point, no longer true.

If you really think Starmie is the best offensive spinner in OU just because Aegislash is gone... I don't know what to tell you.

Life orb analytic scald is weaker than Excadrill's EQ without a boosting item:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And analytic is far from guaranteed since it only occurs on switches. Starmie also has 0 switch in opportunities and 0 defensive synergy with anything. Excadrill isn't gonna be walling anything soon, but blocking volt switches and being immune to toxic is always useful.

 

[Rosen]

If you really think Starmie is the best offensive spinner in OU just because Aegislash is gone... I don't know what to tell you.

Life orb analytic scald is weaker than Excadrill's EQ without a boosting item:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And analytic is far from guaranteed since it only occurs on switches. Starmie also has 0 switch in opportunities and 0 defensive synergy with anything. Excadrill isn't gonna be walling anything soon, but blocking volt switches and being immune to toxic is always useful.

Nigga wat

Exca and Starmie aren't even comparable, the fact that Exca's EQ is stronger than Starmie's Scald or Psyshock doesn't mean jack shit for Exca in the face of Mega Venusaur, or Hippowdon, or Skarmory, or any of the numerous things that wall Exca that Starmie beats, did you forget to read the part where I said "they all check different shit and outside of hazard removal Starmie and Exca aren't even remotely comparable" b/c I'm pretty sure you just selectively read whatever the fuck you wanted for the sake of arguing whatever exactly you're trying to say. Like nigs for real did you even READ my post?

 

[I_am_A_Garchomp]

I've been trying Starmie recently, and if you can just predict remotely well, you can hammer switches. Seriously nothing can come in unharmed.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 222-263 (54.9 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Minimum damage possible: 109.4) (And don't say Sitrus Berry, cause chances are, you are running Jolly Azu with Max Speed)

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 126-149 (41.4 - 49%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 97% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Minimum damage possible: 75.9)

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 205-244 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 161-190 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Minimum damage possible: 111.2)

I'll add some more soon, but this is just to get its power into perspective.

 

[effyouzion]

Nigga wat

Exca and Starmie aren't even comparable, the fact that Exca's EQ is stronger than Starmie's Scald or Psyshock doesn't mean jack shit for Exca in the face of Mega Venusaur, or Hippowdon, or Skarmory, or any of the numerous things that wall Exca that Starmie beats, did you forget to read the part where I said "they all check different shit and outside of hazard removal Starmie and Exca aren't even remotely comparable" b/c I'm pretty sure you just selectively read whatever the fuck you wanted for the sake of arguing whatever exactly you're trying to say. Like nigs for real did you even READ my post?

Hazard removal is the only reason either of them get a team slot. Greninja is a better Starmie, and Lando-T does the bulky ground type thing better. If you're giving a team slot to Starmie or Excadrill, it's because they need to spin, so they need to be compared.

*Yes I know Excadrill is a great sand sweeper, but for non sand teams, he's only there to spin.

 

[Karxrida]

Starmie is super-reliant in Life Orb to deal damage, meaning it loses 22.5% of its health each time it comes in to spin them away (dying to LO recoil causes hazard removal to fail). It also doesn't appreciate Toxic or T-Wave (which Excadrill is immune to) unless it has Natural Cure, which costs it more power since you're no longer using Analytic.

 

[Rosen]

Starmie is super-reliant in Life Orb to deal damage, meaning it loses 22.5% of its health each time it comes in to spin them away (dying to LO recoil causes hazard removal to fail). It also doesn't appreciate Toxic or T-Wave (which Excadrill is immune to) unless it has Natural Cure, which costs it more power since you're no longer using Analytic.

Ya know Specs Starmie is also a thing, no recoil and hits a helluva lot harder, just gotta be better with your predictions like any choice user, fortunately Starmie learns Trick which is bad news for its normal checks/counters (see: Ferrothorn, Chansey). Starmie's just got so much going for it atm, to discredit it so quickly I believe is unwise

 

[Karxrida]

Ya know Specs Starmie is also a thing, no recoil and hits a helluva lot harder, just gotta be better with your predictions like any choice user, fortunately Starmie learns Trick which is bad news for its normal checks/counters (see: Ferrothorn, Chansey). Starmie's just got so much going for it atm, to discredit it so quickly I believe is unwise

I've used Starmie and it was very underwhelming. Trick users have a lot of issues this gen with the Megas running around and Starmie's already starved for coverage when running Rapid Spin, so replacing something with Trick leaves you walled by something. Greninja still outclasses you as a fast Water-type cleaner since it doesn't have to lock itself into a move, its coverage attacks hit harder and it can actually get past Mega Venusaur without dying (Protean is boss).

 

[Rosen]

I've used Starmie and it was very underwhelming. Trick users have a lot of issues this gen with the Megas running around and Starmie's already starved for coverage when running Rapid Spin, so replacing something with Trick leaves you walled by something. Greninja still outclasses you as a fast Water-type cleaner since it doesn't have to lock itself into a move, its coverage attacks hit harder and it can actually get past Mega Venusaur without dying (Protean is boss).

Well yeah ofc Greninja outclasses it as a water type cleaner, Greninja outclasses everything not named Keldeo as a water type cleaner, I'm not saying Starmie belongs anywhere near A+, but as far as beating spinblockers goes, nothing comes close now, also yeah LO Analytic appreciates wish support but lots of good mons like some sort of support, but even then, BulkMie is still a viable set if you're worried about being worn down (although LO Analytic is better imo). Anyway I run LO Analytic on a balanced team with Rocky Helmet Ferro and Unaware Clef for wish support, and those three alone check all kinds of shit, namely because Starmie does make it so difficult for the opponent to switch in safely once it's out, and Ferro deters Knock Off spam w/ Rocky Helmet/Iron barbz, erryone knows what Clef does blah blah

Anyway I'm having great success with just those three alone, still have more testing to do, but yeah I am not at all let down so far

 

[Yiggaman]

I think greninja just made star or a lil under used IMOIMO

 

[#DefyingGravity]

Yep every time I see Starmie I think speed and yes as a spinner / decoder it's great . And moveset are always different.

 

[TURBODERP]

Reflect Type Starmie probably get a lot better due to Aegislash leaving.

Sure you don't run Psyshock, but Gengars probably are not gonna be switching in on you (and if they do IIRC Scald can 2HKO as you outspeed).

Plus, you can beat Ttar, Ferro, Lando, Bisharp in one-on-one's (except for AV Ttar/Bisharp, but even they hate the burns, especially Bisharp), which is nice.

Since you don't need to outspeed Gengar anymore, all you need is 224 speed to outspeed base 110's and you're good. Chuck 252HP for Lefties number and the rest into Defense.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

I've been testing defensive starmie but with psychic over Psyshock to 2 hit KO Venu after rocks and I'm absolutely loving it. Bulk is nothing to write home about but it's decent factoring in recover, and having a speedy mon to finish weaken things and spread burns like the plague helps a great deal. I would definitely argue defensive Starmie has use on offensive teams, considering it doesn't completely wreck momentum.

 

[Vaporeon Isn't Bad]

tbh, i think greninja is just a better starmie. Ik it cant spin, and its a bit less bulky, bet imo better movepool, and its stronger and faster.

 

[heritage]

tbh, i think greninja is just a better starmie. Ik it cant spin, and its a bit less bulky, bet imo better movepool, and its stronger and faster.

Your argument is completely invalid. Starmie can serve a completely different purpose than Greninja. It can Rapid Spin, has reliable recovery in Recover and has a different typing. Greninja is a hard counter to Starmie, but I don't see the point of your argument because Starmie can run more than one move set efficiently.

 

[escarlata]

I seriously don't get what's with the hate on Starmie just because Greninja exists. Nothing common sits between the 115 and 122 speed tier. Greninja usually run Hydro Pump/Extrasensory/Ice Beam/HP Fire. Literally the only thing off the top of my head that standard Greninja beats that Starmie cannot are Ferrothorn and Scizor. (Dragonite is shaky because BandNite ExtremeSpeed almost OHKOs). Trading the ability to beat those 2 for the ability to spin is not a bad deal. Obviously Greninja has other stuff that gives it some advantage against Starmie, but if spinning is needed, using Starmie over Greninja usually doesn't make your team any worse.

 

[StairFall]

I seriously don't get what's with the hate on Starmie just because Greninja exists. Nothing common sits between the 115 and 122 speed tier. Greninja usually run Hydro Pump/Extrasensory/Ice Beam/HP Fire. Literally the only thing off the top of my head that standard Greninja beats that Starmie cannot are Ferrothorn and Scizor. (Dragonite is shaky because BandNite ExtremeSpeed almost OHKOs). Trading the ability to beat those 2 for the ability to spin is not a bad deal. Obviously Greninja has other stuff that gives it some advantage against Starmie, but if spinning is needed, using Starmie over Greninja usually doesn't make your team any worse.

Greninja utterly outclasses Starmie in the "super fast and frail all out attacker" role. It's faster, stronger and has better coverage. Greninja is much better than offensive Starmie, and rapid spin isn't enough to differentiate it because spin + 3 attacks with LO is pretty bad in its own right even without being compared to Greninja, especially against Stall since you're going to get LO recoil stalled against hazard setters. spin + 3 attacks with lefties is significantly lacking in power, and spin + recover with 2 attacks just has such limited coverage that you should just go full defensive with it. If you're using fully offensive Starmie just use Gren, the spin isn't worth it. If you use Starmie it's really for the best to go defensive.

 

[alexwolf]

Greninja utterly outclasses Starmie in the "super fast and frail all out attacker" role. It's faster, stronger and has better coverage. Greninja is much better than offensive Starmie, and rapid spin isn't enough to differentiate it because spin + 3 attacks with LO is pretty bad in its own right even without being compared to Greninja, especially against Stall since you're going to get LO recoil stalled against hazard setters. spin + 3 attacks with lefties is significantly lacking in power, and spin + recover with 2 attacks just has such limited coverage that you should just go full defensive with it. If you're using fully offensive Starmie just use Gren, the spin isn't worth it. If you use Starmie it's really for the best to go defensive.

That's not true at all. You can't say that Rapid Spin Starmie is inferior to Greninja because Greninja doesn't have Rapid Spin, the main point of using Starmie anyway. Starmie is also a great offensive spinner because it beats most Stealth Rock setters (Heatran, Landorus-T, Terrakion, Landorus, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Mamoswine) which means that it is a great teammate for SR weak Pokemon. Also, offensive Starmie fares just fine against stall because it beats some common SR setters that they use, such as Skarmory and Heatran, meaning it can reliably keep SR off the field, and even pressures the stall team by forcing them to bring in their special wall, as stall teams usually don't have more than one Pokemon able to counter Starmie, with only two surefire counters in Ferrothron and Chansey.

 

[Rosen]

You know, depending on the needs of the team, a set of Hydro Pump, Psy(chic/shock), HP Fire, and Rapid Spin. A set like that is perfectly viable, and it beats Skarmory, Ferrothorn, M Venu, Quagsire, Heatran, plus the above shit mentioned, only being walled by Chansey on common stall teams. And people chanting "buh buh Greninja's seoh much strongkkkkrrrr" the SAtk diff is fucking three points. Ninja has Protean, Starm had Analytic, both hit hella fucking hard. If you need hazard removal AND a water-type cleaner, Starmie does both hella fine and that's plenty of reason to use Starmie over ninja. I'm kind of losing sight of where I was goin with this but can we stop comparing Starmie to Ninja pls

 

[JMach]

Hazard removal is the only reason either of them get a team slot. Greninja is a better Starmie, and Lando-T does the bulky ground type thing better. If you're giving a team slot to Starmie or Excadrill, it's because they need to spin, so they need to be compared.

*Yes I know Excadrill is a great sand sweeper, but for non sand teams, he's only there to spin.

Just because they're both primarily used to spin, that doesn't mean you should be ignoring their pros and cons outside of that role when comparing them.

Starmie functions completely differently to Exca, spinner or not. They threaten different things. What's Exca gonna do to a Skarmory for example..?

They also synergise defensively with different things. To say Starmie doesn't do this with anything is so unbelievably shortsighted it's a joke. The bulky spinner set is surprisingly tough to wear down in many cases, forms 1/3 of the tried and tested FWG core and can switch in on, and subsequently threaten out, a number of 'mons that Exca can't (fighting types for example).

In reality, neither is outclassed by the other. It's totally dependent on what your team needs. Exca can't spin, spread burns and threaten PhysDef walls like Starm can, but Starm can't fire off Mold Breaker EQs. That's all there is to it.

They're equally good spinners IMHO.

 

[Jyron Stone]

Okay I've been a lurker for a couple months now but I had to make an account just for this so grab on to your pants because it's aimless rant time.

Rosenfeldius knows his shit. With Aegislash gone, Starmie being UU should be considered a cardinal sin. Starmie is canned bread in the shape of a magical starfish. You wanna spin away hazards and keep them gone because your Pinsir or Charizard or what the fuck ever really hate those daggum sneaky pebbles? Starmie doesn't just have your back, Starmie is stabbing itself into your back and Pumping your back full of pure, liquid love. Yeah, Greninja is better for being an offensive Water type. But do you know what Greninja can't do? Disco ninja frog can't even spin2win that ain't disco at all so get that weak-ass groove out of this dance floor. Yeah, Mold Breaker Excadrill can get some fools trippin' by shaking the earth like it's nobody's business. But do you know what Excadrill can't do? Metal birds, floating dirtlions, and kung fu dogs don't trip because they know not to do drugs and they have suspicious gravel that's in need of infiltrating your base. Wait shit is that a pumpkin with pink hair JESUS CHRIST TAKE THE WHEEL because not even metal drills can do shit to something that kawaii. Wanna know what Starmie can do? Starmie spins like it's prom night and metal birds, floating dirtlions, kung-fu dogs and kawaii pumpkins can't even match that beautiful footwork and then when she's done spinning the ride still ain't over because now she's sweeping your shit to KEEP those Clandestine Agates and Pokey Pokes of Painful Poking gone from her side of the ghetto and all the while she's looking FABULOUS AS FUCK CUZ SHE'S A DIAMOND-STUDDED SPACE STARFISH HOLY SHIT.

tl;dr Excadrill and Greninja arguments against Starmie should gtfo because Starmie takes the best of both worlds to make something beautiful

 

[Chali]

I agree, with Aegishlash and Mega Mawile gone a few Psychic types could definitely start seeing a rise in usage. Stuff like Starmie, Slowbro, Metagross, Jirachi, Celebi, hell maybe even Jellicent may come out of hiding.

Starmie with recover and rapid spin may be on par with Recover Defog Latias as far as staying alive the match goes. Even when considering their offenses dragon isn't the best type attack to be throwing around anymore. Not only that but with Natural Cure status gets covered with Starmie.

 

[Kurona]

The fact this thread hasn't been revived or remade is an honest crime. Not only has Starmie regained it's role as an excellent spinner since the Aegislash ban, but now with Greninja gone, both it and Keldeo compete for the title of best offensive water type in the game. It's speed tier of 115 is more relevant and coveted due to the new base 110s - especially Diancie - and in general it's kind of an underrated threat, arguably a better spinner than Excadrill.

 

[SketchUp]

Don't forget it is a decent answer to mega metagross. Meteor Mash doesn't 2HKO without the attack boost and mega metagross fears the scald burn. Offensive Starmie can only switch into Zen Headbutt or Ice Punch (Meteor Mash 2HKOs after rocks) but it is a good check as Hydro Pump 2HKOs

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

The fact this thread hasn't been revived or remade is an honest crime. Not only has Starmie regained it's role as an excellent spinner since the Aegislash ban, but now with Greninja gone, both it and Keldeo compete for the title of best offensive water type in the game. It's speed tier of 115 is more relevant and coveted due to the new base 110s - especially Diancie - and in general it's kind of an underrated threat, arguably a better spinner than Excadrill.

You're not wrong about it's viability, but Starmie doesn't exactly have many options, it's either LO Analytic or Bulky Natty Cure (Reflect Type) and that's pretty much it.

 

[master_marshmallow]

I'm feeling the coverage here too. Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, HP Fire. It has so many options. This thing straight up replaces Greninja.
Hydro Pump and Ice Beam are staples. Psychic or Psyshock depending on team needs for STAB, though it also had Dazzling Gleam for SableEye, even though it has less power for lack of STAB than Hydro Pump. It does hit more reliably.