The problem with using surf and earthquake to counter Dig and Dive (thunder is perfect for fly/bounce, and I have no arguments with that), is in multi-battles, where unless you intend to never use a rock, electric, or steel type with an earthquake user, you're basically forced to greatly hurt your own team just to get some damage on the enemy digger. The same problem with surf/dive.
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Data State of the Game - 07/10/2011 (Huge Stat Announcement)
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
- Status
Earth Power and Dig/Fly/Dive/Bounce for other Dig users. Whirlpool and Dive/etc. for Divers.
Can someone explain how it is logical for a pokemon with 1 or 2 energy to be capable of using Fire Blast at its full power? I can imagine it using a much weaker version of Fire Blast but a full power one that normally costs 8 energy? It's not like the pokemon has some hidden emergency energy storage (because if it did, it wouldn't be KO'd upon running out of energy). The thing is, this extends to combos. Take the Focus Ice Punch combo from the combination testing thread: 23 BP, 23 EN. Yet somehow a pokemon with 24 EN (barely more than enough) and a pokemon with 2 EN (nowhere near enough) can use this combo with exactly the same amount of power.
This of course means that a pokemon that is in danger of an energy KO can actually do tremendous amounts of damage for effectively very little energy. Suddenly the energy KO and in fact energy costs in general seem rather meaningless with this incredibly abusable mechanic for energy.
It has been discussed on irc and a solution has been proposed: when a pokemon does not have enough energy to use an attack, it can use the attack but the BP is reduced to BP*(current EN/required EN), rounded down. So, a non-STAB Flamethrower (cost: 7 EN) coming from a pokemon with 5 EN left has a BP of 10*(5/7)=7.142... which is rounded to 7, which is the usual base power for a move that costs 5 EN. A non-STAB Head Smash (cost: 9 EN) from a pokemon with only 4 EN left has a BP of 15*(4/9)=6.666... which is rounded to 6.
EDIT: Something has been proposed in a similar vein for non-attacking moves. If the move has an effect duration (eg, Reflect) or inflicts a move-specific condition (eg, Taunt), that duration is multiplied by (current EN/required EN) and rounded down. So, trying to use Taunt with only 6 EN left would make the Taunt last for (6*6/10)=3.6 -> 3 actions. Mote: if the effect duration is in rounds, convert it into actions (ie, multiply the duration in rounds by however many actions there are per round), so using Rain Dance with only 9 EN left in a singles match (assuming no STAB) would make it last for 4*3*(9/10)=10.8 -> 10 actions.
If the non-attacking move is just a stat-changing one or one that just inflicts a major status, then reduce the move's accuracy to accuracy*(current EN/required EN). For example, using Will-O-Wisp with only 3 EN left reduces its accuracy to 75%*(3/7)=32.142...%. Yawn comes under this as well.
This of course means that a pokemon that is in danger of an energy KO can actually do tremendous amounts of damage for effectively very little energy. Suddenly the energy KO and in fact energy costs in general seem rather meaningless with this incredibly abusable mechanic for energy.
It has been discussed on irc and a solution has been proposed: when a pokemon does not have enough energy to use an attack, it can use the attack but the BP is reduced to BP*(current EN/required EN), rounded down. So, a non-STAB Flamethrower (cost: 7 EN) coming from a pokemon with 5 EN left has a BP of 10*(5/7)=7.142... which is rounded to 7, which is the usual base power for a move that costs 5 EN. A non-STAB Head Smash (cost: 9 EN) from a pokemon with only 4 EN left has a BP of 15*(4/9)=6.666... which is rounded to 6.
EDIT: Something has been proposed in a similar vein for non-attacking moves. If the move has an effect duration (eg, Reflect) or inflicts a move-specific condition (eg, Taunt), that duration is multiplied by (current EN/required EN) and rounded down. So, trying to use Taunt with only 6 EN left would make the Taunt last for (6*6/10)=3.6 -> 3 actions. Mote: if the effect duration is in rounds, convert it into actions (ie, multiply the duration in rounds by however many actions there are per round), so using Rain Dance with only 9 EN left in a singles match (assuming no STAB) would make it last for 4*3*(9/10)=10.8 -> 10 actions.
If the non-attacking move is just a stat-changing one or one that just inflicts a major status, then reduce the move's accuracy to accuracy*(current EN/required EN). For example, using Will-O-Wisp with only 3 EN left reduces its accuracy to 75%*(3/7)=32.142...%. Yawn comes under this as well.
Is this only getting changed when the vote is posted or is it being changed right away? If the former then it still needs to be changed.
Objection has an excellent point.
I think Explosion is especially troubling; as it stands the energy cost of explosion and other sacrificial moves means nothing.
I think Explosion is especially troubling; as it stands the energy cost of explosion and other sacrificial moves means nothing.
Come to think of it, I'm sure there used to be a bit in Explosion's description saying you couldn't use it if you didn't have enough energy. Did that get removed or am I imagining things?
Hm you may be right, I could well be mistaken. I'll look that up...
Edit: nope, explosion has no such rule in its description, but there probably should be (or have your proposal implemented or both).
Edit: nope, explosion has no such rule in its description, but there probably should be (or have your proposal implemented or both).
Ok, there's an issue that I'd like to bring up: editing orders.
I've seen a few people editing because of something another player told them while the ref is typing up the round. This is, to put it bluntly, bullshit. Aside from the obvious fact that other players can't help the battlers, it forces the ref to possibly have to retype an entire round.
My proposed solution: a battle must get permission from the other battler and (only if they have the last orders) the ref.
Thoughts?
I've seen a few people editing because of something another player told them while the ref is typing up the round. This is, to put it bluntly, bullshit. Aside from the obvious fact that other players can't help the battlers, it forces the ref to possibly have to retype an entire round.
My proposed solution: a battle must get permission from the other battler and (only if they have the last orders) the ref.
Thoughts?
I don't like that, because it seems an overreaction to typos and such. Better would be more simple: if the next person is posting, you can't edit. To be sure, this means immediately after you post or while they are still offline. Player discretion and honesty is obviously needed here, but I think we could manage that.
EDIT: And if the are online, then your solution holds. It is the best of both worlds. Really, just don't be ridiculous with editting.
EDIT: And if the are online, then your solution holds. It is the best of both worlds. Really, just don't be ridiculous with editting.
...How about simply adding a "ref cap" where the ref posts the current action set (when he's about to ref), and after that is posted there are no changes?
The move you're thinking is Selfdestruct, which is stupid since you can't use selfdestruct when you have less than 15 energy but it's OK to use Explosion if you have 2
In my opinion it just won't do damage, the reason is you are to tired to focus your energy into the attack, it's like tackle, you're running full speed, but because you ran out of energy you fall half way, and you faint (like sometimes in the anime has happened), anoter little rule sould be you can't use combos if you don't have the energy to excecute them, this would really help against those things having to be calculated and reduced and making no sense at all
I disagree with weakening attacks when used with low energy, as to be honest, some of the best turns are those where you're living on the edge with 1 chill and 2 attacks per round. Furthermore, it removes the ability to do super cool last-ditch-attack combos, which is the primary motivation for combos to exist at all (awesome last-ditch shit). Also, you need to realize that energy is a logical anime interpretation of in-game PP. In-game, your attacks don't get weaker when you have only 1 PP left in them, they are the same strength as they always are. To me, intentionally weakening Pokemon at the end of their game takes all of the fun out of those last rounds, and ultimately detracts from a fairly important part of battling—pinch battling.
Placeholder posts have always been recognized in ASB, most refs just don't use them.Tortferngatr said:
Actually, they're also great utility moves at times.
Additionally, you can be conservative with your energy usage if you're trying to get a good combo in.
To go off of RD's finishing combo quote:
I would cite my logic in previous arguments as to why suicide, last ditch combos are very, very broken. However, all of that is deleted at the moment...
However much I hate to do it, time to lay that logic back out. First off, in a long Switch=KO battle, the first person to get a KO will almost always win. Why? Because of switching momentum. Add to this the ability to deal 40+ damage to the new mon before going out, regardless of if you have the energy or not, and the first person to lose a mon has no chance. Even if combos are now technically correct and in-mechanics, we should still try to keep some semblence of balance. I view the idea of a 1 energy mon being able to use a 30 energy combo as absolutely insane. As someone pointed out above, where are they getting the energy? If they had some sort of reserve, or could use the attack anyways, why can't they go to negative thirty energy by other means? To bring realism to it: I can't sprint when I'm tired. Even if I wanted to, I can only do what my body can physically do without killing itself. The combo idea is essentially: "I'm about two steps from fainting, so I can clearly run another mile at 15 MPH and faint, as two steps and a mile are roughly the same since they both end in me fainting." This is absolutely ridiculous. Both for realism and balance reasons, I firmly support the weakening idea.
I would cite my logic in previous arguments as to why suicide, last ditch combos are very, very broken. However, all of that is deleted at the moment...
However much I hate to do it, time to lay that logic back out. First off, in a long Switch=KO battle, the first person to get a KO will almost always win. Why? Because of switching momentum. Add to this the ability to deal 40+ damage to the new mon before going out, regardless of if you have the energy or not, and the first person to lose a mon has no chance. Even if combos are now technically correct and in-mechanics, we should still try to keep some semblence of balance. I view the idea of a 1 energy mon being able to use a 30 energy combo as absolutely insane. As someone pointed out above, where are they getting the energy? If they had some sort of reserve, or could use the attack anyways, why can't they go to negative thirty energy by other means? To bring realism to it: I can't sprint when I'm tired. Even if I wanted to, I can only do what my body can physically do without killing itself. The combo idea is essentially: "I'm about two steps from fainting, so I can clearly run another mile at 15 MPH and faint, as two steps and a mile are roughly the same since they both end in me fainting." This is absolutely ridiculous. Both for realism and balance reasons, I firmly support the weakening idea.
I prefer to think about those last ditch efforts in terms of adrenaline. When you are about to faint from exhaustion in real life, you get a burst of energy—called your second wind—before collapsing. This is a real phenomenon. Any attempt to claim that "using your last-ditch move combo is unrealistic" is, amusingly, unrealistic. Heck, this even happens frequently in the anime.
That said, I think that the person who loses their first match-up should be at a disadvantage for the following match-ups. That only makes sense, and is a part of gathering momentum in a battle. If you're able to deal 40+ to the next switch-in before he can take you down, more power to you. If your opponent is competent (or not totally counter-teamed) then they will be able to deftly maneuver your actions and take you down before he takes too much, if any, punishment.
That said, I think that the person who loses their first match-up should be at a disadvantage for the following match-ups. That only makes sense, and is a part of gathering momentum in a battle. If you're able to deal 40+ to the next switch-in before he can take you down, more power to you. If your opponent is competent (or not totally counter-teamed) then they will be able to deftly maneuver your actions and take you down before he takes too much, if any, punishment.
But if your new pokemon has to deal with a priority SE attack, or a Double SE attack (like Head Smash^2) it's just stupidly effective and even uncompetitive since you should have fainted before the first attack was made, so unless you have a priority strong enough to KO the opponent you just lose a big piece of HP, maybe even making you lose the whole game, you just shouldn't be able to use a 40 energy attack when you only have 12, even with adrenaline is just stupid to do such an attack without paying, with that logic you can say that against a lot of fighting pokemon can use any attack regardless of energy, that a NFE can do it if fighting a fully evolved pokemon (like showed in the anime), etc.., such a last ditch effort is too much sometimes when you should have won a 1v1 but lose or tied the battle thanks to that
Fine, it's perfectly plausible. Just like Burn shutting down 1/2+ of attacking power is plausible. Just like two rounds of sleep is plausible, and five substitutions are plausible. The point is, realism =/= balance. I've got a battle going right now where I lost the first match-up by 1HP. Should I be punished by having my next mon lose 40 HP before it can do anything, regardless of how close the match up is? Can a 2 energy mon use an Explosion+Explosion combo, and we can call it balanced? The point is, combos are absolutely insane at finishing off a weakened mon in offensive battles where energy is irrelevant. Do we really need to say fainting by energy is OK, as one can always use a 30 damage attack before going down?
For all of the balance reasons I hated the passing of combos, I support the weakening of low energy attacks. High power combos only drawback is simply their insane energy cost. If I can disregard that and faint in the process, they become quite imbalanced. And balance is often more important than realism here... unless we want to go back to old sleep, psychic, and burn for realism reasons.
For all of the balance reasons I hated the passing of combos, I support the weakening of low energy attacks. High power combos only drawback is simply their insane energy cost. If I can disregard that and faint in the process, they become quite imbalanced. And balance is often more important than realism here... unless we want to go back to old sleep, psychic, and burn for realism reasons.
Originally I was siding with allowing these rediculous low energy combos, but now I see how incredibly strong they are. It widens the gap between fast and slow mons even more, and almost makes "losing" the first matchup in a singles battle effective, when you can spam moves to get low on energy (and your opponenet low on HP), and then finish with something obnoxious like double head smash.
Wow, what a run-on sentence.
Wow, what a run-on sentence.
This post will be blunt.
Simply put, ASB ATTEMPTS to be realistic. But we need competitive balance. Remember the Psychic nerf? It is perfectly realistic that Psychic could deflect a Shadow Ball. But we disallowed it because it screwed over the competitive balance of ASB. The kind of 'second wind combo' we're talking about here is fairly realistic. But I am still of the opinion that it should be removed. Why? Because it is uncompetitve. And for all you (ardy) speak about how Pokemon get second winds in the anime:
a) This is not the anime. It is an interpretation of the anime. There are no plot related grudges to give my Aggron an extra 40 HP because it got hax'd or whatever.
b) Just as many times, in the anime a Pokemon starts an attack and collapses of exhaustion before it can fully complete the attack.
In addition, as Rediamond stated above, combos are broken if they can be abused with (effectively) no energy cost. The main drawback of a combo is energy cost...blah blah blah (read his post for this part of the argument).
So, these combos are uncompetitive, broken, and don't follow anime logic. Why should we allow them again...
Simply put, ASB ATTEMPTS to be realistic. But we need competitive balance. Remember the Psychic nerf? It is perfectly realistic that Psychic could deflect a Shadow Ball. But we disallowed it because it screwed over the competitive balance of ASB. The kind of 'second wind combo' we're talking about here is fairly realistic. But I am still of the opinion that it should be removed. Why? Because it is uncompetitve. And for all you (ardy) speak about how Pokemon get second winds in the anime:
a) This is not the anime. It is an interpretation of the anime. There are no plot related grudges to give my Aggron an extra 40 HP because it got hax'd or whatever.
b) Just as many times, in the anime a Pokemon starts an attack and collapses of exhaustion before it can fully complete the attack.
In addition, as Rediamond stated above, combos are broken if they can be abused with (effectively) no energy cost. The main drawback of a combo is energy cost...blah blah blah (read his post for this part of the argument).
So, these combos are uncompetitive, broken, and don't follow anime logic. Why should we allow them again...
To be honest, I'd prefer an energy conservation game after seeing the above posts-besides, if I want to use powerful finisher combos I save the energy for it.
Wouldn't it be safe to say that Pokemon that have Torrent or Blaze or the likes actually GET the second wind? It seems like that makes more sense than utilizing an actual second wind.
If we are to legitimize second winds, let's legitimize the fact that swift swimmers should all be able to swim twice as fast in water when there isn't any rain present while we're at it.
If we are to legitimize second winds, let's legitimize the fact that swift swimmers should all be able to swim twice as fast in water when there isn't any rain present while we're at it.
I'm definitely on the against side in regards to these last ditch combos. The problem I see is finding a feasible way to disallow them. Are we to completely remove the ability to go into what is more or less negative energy? I see two possible options, the first being that a Pokemon who is ordered to exceed their remaining energy both faints and fails to attack. A somewhat less harsh solution could be to place a cap on exactly how far energy can be exceeded. Something in the order of -10 at most, so that basically any attack outside of a combo could still be used in such last ditch situations. This way also rewards (or at least doesn't punish as harshly) those who haven't used all of their energy (ie a strong combo may still be possible with ~20 en left).
I like the idea of (Damage * HP / Original HP). It seems clean, easy, and obvious, without having any huge problems with it. The only modification I might consider is if an attack is really all-or-nothing, like something like Conversion2 or something, where ending up ??? type is the only reasonable responce but at the same time utterly stupid. In this case I would recommend it just fails and the Pokemon faints, and clearly this woul have to be up to ref discretion though.
Well, first of all, I found a reason to use a combo outside of last-ditch attack: Fly (and, by extension, Dig, Dive and Bounce). Had I used an ordinary attack that turn, my move would have missed. Because I used a combo that hits at the same priority as Fly's attack and am slower, my combo hits.
Furthermore, you're right that EN is equivalent to PP and that having 1 PP doesn't make your attacks weaker. However, 1 PP is sufficient cost for the attack, whereas 3 EN for an attack that costs 10 EN is not.
And pinch battling? That's for when you're down on HP and your opponent is going to KO you with his next move. If you're on a decent amount of HP and hardly any energy, then you played inefficiently and should be penalised for that.
So, how come the second wind doesn't last long enough for the pokemon to continue attacking after it has actually run out of energy? That wiki article makes it sound like the second wind phenomenon lasts for more than a minute (which is the longest an attack or combo could possibly take).
And again, just because it happens in the anime doesn't mean we should make it happen like that in ASB.
3 energy is 3 energy, not 23 energy. If it were 23 energy, then it would be written as 23 energy. If you want more energy, use a chill. If you're taunted (and so can't use chill) and somewhat low on energy, then use weak attacks that only cost 2 or 3 energy until you can chill again. And if you run out of chills, then ... well, sucks to be you.
However, there is another way we could handle using attacks when you don't have enough energy to do so: simply make the attack fail altogether (regardless of what kind of attack it is) and make the mon faint. I don't expect this to be as popular as the other suggestion I posted but it's a possibility. Or we could simply have the total fail apply to non-attacking moves and the attacking ones could use the BP*(current EN/required EN) formula.
I haven't had a rant in a while, so let's stop that from being a problem.
TRAINING BATTLES
Why. Are. These. Existent. When you battle, I think of it as rather cheap to let people preserve there oh-so precious WLT record (Which has absolutely no value, if you think otherwise you need to grow up and deflate your ego). This is an abusable method to get very fast KOC without any form of penalty. I know it's possibble to do things like have a 6 v 6 brawl and use explosion on each mon, but that comes at the price of a loss on your WLT (Which is worth jack-shit).
So then, the proposal (Or rather, 2 of them):
Remove WLT. Shock and horror, I know, because "WLT encourages competitiveness". Well, having training battles is the equivalent of removing WLT, and if people are going to evade it, but still battle to win in these matches, obviously it's having little effect.
OR
Ban training battles. Don't tell me it makes it impossible to train a caterpie or a weedle, deck will gladly tell you otherwise, and I have 2 very proud losses from training one.
TRAINING BATTLES
Why. Are. These. Existent. When you battle, I think of it as rather cheap to let people preserve there oh-so precious WLT record (Which has absolutely no value, if you think otherwise you need to grow up and deflate your ego). This is an abusable method to get very fast KOC without any form of penalty. I know it's possibble to do things like have a 6 v 6 brawl and use explosion on each mon, but that comes at the price of a loss on your WLT (Which is worth jack-shit).
So then, the proposal (Or rather, 2 of them):
Remove WLT. Shock and horror, I know, because "WLT encourages competitiveness". Well, having training battles is the equivalent of removing WLT, and if people are going to evade it, but still battle to win in these matches, obviously it's having little effect.
OR
Ban training battles. Don't tell me it makes it impossible to train a caterpie or a weedle, deck will gladly tell you otherwise, and I have 2 very proud losses from training one.
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