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Data State of the Game - 09/05/2011 (Gym Announcement Post #53, Pay Day HotFix in OP)
- Thread starter Deck Knight
- Start date
- Status
You can also simply skip the natural order and post first if you want to switch one of these abilities, even if you're supposed to be going second (or later), or at least that's what I've Deck do.
Two random suggestions I'd like to have peoples opinions on:
1. Combos being able to have a next-action flinch, similar to current sky-attack. The doubled-effect chance of combos like Rock Slide and Headbutt is somewhat wasted, and gives another option to stop important moves.
2. Buffing Shedinja. I don't even have one, and looking at it makes me cringe. Really, the whole idea of Wonder Guard doesn't work in ASB, where virtually every mon has a move to hit it with. I suggest giving it a DW ability (maybe imposter like Ninjask), and/or giving the option to DISABLE Wonder Guard, giving him the standard 80 or 90 HP.
1. Combos being able to have a next-action flinch, similar to current sky-attack. The doubled-effect chance of combos like Rock Slide and Headbutt is somewhat wasted, and gives another option to stop important moves.
2. Buffing Shedinja. I don't even have one, and looking at it makes me cringe. Really, the whole idea of Wonder Guard doesn't work in ASB, where virtually every mon has a move to hit it with. I suggest giving it a DW ability (maybe imposter like Ninjask), and/or giving the option to DISABLE Wonder Guard, giving him the standard 80 or 90 HP.
In regards to buffing shedinja, I agree that I looked at him and thought that there was no way I'd use him in his current state.
An alternative idea to #2 above would be to make Wonder Guard basically inverse Magic Guard, preventing all damage from direct attacks. I think you'd want to take Shedinjas HP down to 20 or so to compensate.
With that change, Shedinja would feel a lot more like ingame shedinja, very fragile but very hard to damage. He'd also use very similar strategies as ingame (using lum berry, controlling weather). Actually with Lum he'd be pretty hard to take down, but that would be mitigated by the fact that he'll still struggle to harm his opponents.
An alternative idea to #2 above would be to make Wonder Guard basically inverse Magic Guard, preventing all damage from direct attacks. I think you'd want to take Shedinjas HP down to 20 or so to compensate.
With that change, Shedinja would feel a lot more like ingame shedinja, very fragile but very hard to damage. He'd also use very similar strategies as ingame (using lum berry, controlling weather). Actually with Lum he'd be pretty hard to take down, but that would be mitigated by the fact that he'll still struggle to harm his opponents.
Oh yeah, I also have a fairly miscellaneous thing I want to discuss.
Disallow the use of combo moves when you are drowsy.
As of now, Yawn is incredibly easy to circumvent. Because you fall asleep at the end of Action 1, you have the first action to do whatever you want and are incapacitated for the second action (and rarely the third). This means that you can use a combo on A1 and therefore suffer absolutely no repercussions. Yawn is now basically completely useless, and I think that something should be changed to make that not true. In addition, disallowing combo moves when you're drowsy also makes sense from a pure flavor standpoint. If you're ready to fall asleep, what makes you able to pull of a massive attack?
Disallow the use of combo moves when you are drowsy.
As of now, Yawn is incredibly easy to circumvent. Because you fall asleep at the end of Action 1, you have the first action to do whatever you want and are incapacitated for the second action (and rarely the third). This means that you can use a combo on A1 and therefore suffer absolutely no repercussions. Yawn is now basically completely useless, and I think that something should be changed to make that not true. In addition, disallowing combo moves when you're drowsy also makes sense from a pure flavor standpoint. If you're ready to fall asleep, what makes you able to pull of a massive attack?
1. This is a pretty good idea, actually. It may have to depend on speed, but the idea does have some merit.
2. This, however, I have a problem with. The entire point of using Sheddy is to abuse its ability, which just happens to not do as well in ASB. As it is, being hit only super effective moves and having seventy times as much HP as in-game is already a fairly good deal. And giving it a DW ability is out of the question, unless GF decides to give it one. This is about as likely to happen as SOMALIA getting elected president. So yeah, I'd vote against any Sheddy buffs.
I agree with Engineer about the Drowsy thing just based on pure flavor aspects of the game, it makes little to no sense to be able to use Blast Burn+Blast Burn while almost falling asleep or something of a simlar nature.
This would give yawn the added niche of eing able to prevent combo moves, which is actually really nice sounding imo.
1. See Galladiator. I would recommend revising the Sky Attack description in that case as well to enable a same-turn lower priority flinch.
2. Why not simply remove the HP cap, giving Sheddy 20 more HP? It also makes Tracing Shedinja an at least somewhat viable multiples strategy.
...Hey, Shedinja makes me cringe too, but I still want it to be close to in-game.
Data Audit said:
Why not just make Flinch bypass rounds, since flavor wise, if you flinch it doesn't matter if youalready attacked, you still flinch, if you fall and you alredy attack, you still have to get up (probably losing your turn), flinching could be a continued "action" and would give some very interesting uses to flinching moves
I suspect that during the time between actions, a Pokemon would have time to recover from a momentary reaction. Flinching doesn't take a minute in my opinion; just long enough to disrupt an attack. A large force like a combination or sky attack however might have the force and unexpectedness needed to flinch across actions. Rounds? Heck no.
(Add Wonder Guard to the list of Traceable abilities then if the idea goes through.)
Also, did you mean turns, Gerard?
Also, did you mean turns, Gerard?
Before we continue...
Pain Split: The Pokemon links itself telepathically with the opponent and summons out their vitality. Strong vitality glow brightly while weak vitality glow faintly. The brilliance from the Pokemon increases or diminishes until the two auras are the same strength. The Pokemon can only restore HP up to its maximum with Pain Split.
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 6 + (Opponents HP - User's HP) / 3 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
This is pretty balanced in Singles by the energy costs, but in Multiples, it leads to an annoying quandary-if you use Pain Split to heal an ally, and you have more than 18 HP more than the mon you heal, you actually regain energy thanks to a negative energy cost. This can let players pull a battered mon in multiples from the brink of extinction while regenerating their own energy as well, potentially allowing them to Pain Split an enemy to heal off the HP cost.
Could we please get a little discussion over this? I propose making it 6+|Target's HP - User's HP|/3, or 6 + (the absolute value of (Target's HP - User's HP))/3. This lets it remain useful as a "bailout move" while bringing it more in line.
Pain Split: The Pokemon links itself telepathically with the opponent and summons out their vitality. Strong vitality glow brightly while weak vitality glow faintly. The brilliance from the Pokemon increases or diminishes until the two auras are the same strength. The Pokemon can only restore HP up to its maximum with Pain Split.
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 6 + (Opponents HP - User's HP) / 3 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
This is pretty balanced in Singles by the energy costs, but in Multiples, it leads to an annoying quandary-if you use Pain Split to heal an ally, and you have more than 18 HP more than the mon you heal, you actually regain energy thanks to a negative energy cost. This can let players pull a battered mon in multiples from the brink of extinction while regenerating their own energy as well, potentially allowing them to Pain Split an enemy to heal off the HP cost.
Could we please get a little discussion over this? I propose making it 6+|Target's HP - User's HP|/3, or 6 + (the absolute value of (Target's HP - User's HP))/3. This lets it remain useful as a "bailout move" while bringing it more in line.
It hasn't been overlooked, it should be obvious this is what it does, but changing the notation would probably help, even though a lot of people may not know that | | indicates absolute values.
In any case since I've been asked to elaborate:
Substitutions in multiple battles:
Substitutions are fairly straightforward in singles battles since there is only one target to account for. In multiple battles it is possible under the new rules to have opponents with different possible substitutions.
Although the new substitution rules are based on the strength of the opponent, there is still a set maximum of substitutions. Effectively in a triples battle while you do face 3 opponents, you can only choose to substitute against one - unless a second opponent has a substitution limit on them of two, in which case you can make an additional substitution against an action that opponent takes, however your substitutions cannot conflict or both will fail.
Ex.
You are facing a Snorunt with 20 moves, a Dragonite with 30 moves, and a Gengar with 25 moves in a triples battle.
This is an exhaustive list of substitution options:
- A single Attack Substitution or a Chance Substitution against Snorunt along with a KO Substitution against any of the opponent's Pokemon.
- The above with an Attack or Chance Substitution against either Dragonite or Gengar that doesn't conflict with Snorunt's Attack or Chance Substitution.
- A single Attack or Chance Substitution against both Dragonite and Gengar, provided the substitutions do not conflict, and a KO Substitution against any of the opponent's Pokemon.
- Any combination of two Attack or Chance Substitutions against Dragonite or Gengar respectively, along with a KO Substitution against any of the opponent's Pokemon.
So essentially:
You get up to a maximum of two Attack or Chance substitutions in a multiples battle, and the KO substitution to redirect attacks is universally available.
Take Cover
I'm not sure why this isn't the exact reverse of bodyblock -- why should the thing you're taking cover behind be two size classes larger? I have indeed read this, but that can be easily counter-argued by saying that the Pokémon taking cover is attempting to make itself as small as possible, and is actively trying to evade the attack.
E: Relevant IRC conversation with the adorable SDS. Most notable part towards the bottom.
Summary: Make Take Cover (and perhaps bodyblock) something like this:
Obviously the exact numbers are still up for discussion, but this seems to be the fairest way to progress. Perhaps the energy cost should also change as the chance of success changes.
I'm not sure why this isn't the exact reverse of bodyblock -- why should the thing you're taking cover behind be two size classes larger? I have indeed read this, but that can be easily counter-argued by saying that the Pokémon taking cover is attempting to make itself as small as possible, and is actively trying to evade the attack.
E: Relevant IRC conversation with the adorable SDS. Most notable part towards the bottom.
<SevenDeadlySins> iiMKUltra: he's likely to be swayed by reason
<SevenDeadlySins> and logic
<SevenDeadlySins> and examples
<iiMKUltra> when has that happened
<SevenDeadlySins> when i tell him to do something usually
<iiMKUltra> then he's not being swayed by reason/logic/examples
<iiMKUltra> he's being swayed by you, and your name/status
<Alch> I would ask your opinion, sds, but precedent shows it'll be the exact opposite to mine :P
<iiMKUltra> if i told him the same things with the same reasoning
<iiMKUltra> i am 95% certain they wouldn't get done
<dogfish44> ^ 100% certain for me
<SevenDeadlySins> alch, your instinct is correct
<SevenDeadlySins> in the case of bodyblocking
<SevenDeadlySins> the pokemon is actively making an attempt to block incoming attacks
<SevenDeadlySins> thus the equivalent size thing
<SevenDeadlySins> it can spread itself out and consciously provide protection
<SevenDeadlySins> in the case of taking cover
<SevenDeadlySins> pokemon are not static objects
<SevenDeadlySins> i can hide behind a rock my size
<SevenDeadlySins> but if that rock is moving, it's gonna need to be really big for me to hide behind it with any regularity and reliability
<Alch> Indeed, but this can be turned around again
<Alch> Bodyblocking is putting yourself in the way of a specific attack
<Alch> Taking cover is putting someone else in the way
<SevenDeadlySins> no it can't
<Alch> Thus for that moment in time, it's static
<SevenDeadlySins> no it isn't
<SevenDeadlySins> it is never static
<SevenDeadlySins> and attacks do not last for a single moment
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<Alch> If this is the case, how can a mon bodyblock another for an entire action, as it runs around brick breaking for example
<SevenDeadlySins> because in the bodyblock case
<SevenDeadlySins> the shield is consciously blocking specific attacks
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<SevenDeadlySins> and is actively participating in the blocking
<SevenDeadlySins> thus its movements are designed specifically to block attacks
<SevenDeadlySins> in the take cover case
<SevenDeadlySins> the shield is off doing its own shit
<SevenDeadlySins> and its movements are entirely counterproductive when it comes to being able to reliably avoid things
<dogfish44> No SDS, the shield is simply blocking all attacks, whether 1 attack or multiple attacks.
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: you know what i mean
<dogfish44> no, I don't actually
<SevenDeadlySins> the shield is intent on providing protection
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<SevenDeadlySins> which means any movements made by the shield are beneficial to the shielding
<dogfish44> in both cases, there is 1 moving mon and 1 mon attacking
<Alchemator> The taking cover mon is actively avoiding the attacks. Plus, in this case, the mon providing the shield is the last to move.
<SevenDeadlySins> i'm assuming neither of you have tried to dodge behind a moving object that isn't being helpful
<iiMKUltra> hm
<SevenDeadlySins> it's not exactly simple
<dogfish44> ...isn't being helpful?
<dogfish44> It's a teammate
<dogfish44> it WOULD be helpful
<iiMKUltra> maybe the prc could actually do something now
<SevenDeadlySins> yes but unless its action is "block" it's not blocking
<Alchemator> I think if you're quicker than said thing, it isn't as difficult as you might think
<dogfish44> not to the extent of going out of its way, but not being unhelpful
<SevenDeadlySins> i'm a pretty spry guy, alch
<SevenDeadlySins> it's fucking hard
* Alch has quit (Ping timeout)
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: any unexpected movement is unhelpful
<Alchemator> This situation is a lot more extreme, it's mons after all
<SevenDeadlySins> you're hiding behind something to avoid an ice beam
<dogfish44> ...it's a teammate, the movement WOULDN'T be unexpected
<SevenDeadlySins> and it moves six inches to the left
<Alchemator> As you see it move, you move
<Alchemator> It's like marking in miscellaneous team sports
<dogfish44> why have you assumed that it has moved 6 inches to the left?
<SevenDeadlySins> reaction is always slower than action
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: why have you assumed that it hasn't
<dogfish44> burden of proof ^-^
<SevenDeadlySins> there is no fucking burden of proof here
<dogfish44> I'm making a negative claim, hence the burden of the proof is on you
<SevenDeadlySins> what the christ
<SevenDeadlySins> it may or may not be moving
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<SevenDeadlySins> this can never be proven
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<SevenDeadlySins> but whether or not it can be proven is beyond the point
<Alch> Why must my connection fail now ._.
<dogfish44> If someone was taking cover behind me, I'd subconsciously try to keep the thing behind me
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<SevenDeadlySins> unless the two are telepathically linked
<Alch> Beheeyem does have telepathy here actually
<Elgyem> xD
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<SevenDeadlySins> there's no way for two similarly sized objects to move in tandem effectively enough for a: one to perform an action while "subconsciously blocking"
<SevenDeadlySins> or b: one to reliably hide behind a moving object
<SevenDeadlySins> thus the point of the size class difference
<Elgyem> the specific situation we're talking about is a +spe starmie taking cover behind a -spe beheeyem -- that's a 100 base point speed difference
<SevenDeadlySins> and?
<SevenDeadlySins> i don't see speed factoring in here at all
<SevenDeadlySins> plus if anything that's kinda silly because starmie is rather wide and beheeyem is rather skinny
<Elgyem> we were talking before about being able to continuously take cover behind a slower pokemon
<dogfish44> I'm gonna eplain my stance: If a target is moving to attack (Using contact moves), then Take Cover should ALWAYS work. If using a move which requires very little motion (Flamethrower), it should work as the current ststem. IF a move which requires no motion whatsoever is being used (Psychic), then it should work as Alch has proposed
<Elgyem> this is quite an extreme speed difference
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: the funny thing is
<SevenDeadlySins> that's the complete opposite of how it should work
<dogfish44> really?
<SevenDeadlySins> the chance of take cover failing should decrease as the amount the blocker moves increases
<Elgyem> I'm not sure about the first two being the right way around actually
<SevenDeadlySins> er
<SevenDeadlySins> should increase
<Elgyem> that's actually true
<dogfish44> ...sorry, I meant if a target is moving it should ALWAYS fail x.x
<iiMKUltra> so dogfish
<Elgyem> but surely this is when speed comes into things
<SevenDeadlySins> no
<iiMKUltra> for a fire punch
<dogfish44> typo when being pestered by little brother
<iiMKUltra> a wailord can hide behind a caterpie
<iiMKUltra> ??
<Elgyem> beheeyem here is the last to move, starmie is the first to move
<SevenDeadlySins> speed is more reflex than actual movement speed
<iiMKUltra> oh you've just corrected that
<Elgyem> what I'm saying, sds, is that the two opponent pokemon move before beheeyem, when starmie is already taking cover
<Elgyem> surely in this case it's irrelevant whether beheeyem uses a contact move or a special move
<SevenDeadlySins> i still think the whole thing is silly too because starmie is like twice as wide as beheeyem
<dogfish44> I don't particularly like take cover OR bodyblock
<iiMKUltra> take cover is fine
<SevenDeadlySins> i would imagine a pokemon doesn't sit around picking its nose waiting to get hit during a round
<iiMKUltra> bodyblock is op
<SevenDeadlySins> doesn't matter balance wise
<SevenDeadlySins> they're both just kinda stupid
<iiMKUltra> though given the choice i'd have neither
<Elgyem> attacks pretty much always aim for the centre of the pokemon unless otherwise instructed, so I'd say breadth doesn't matter
<SevenDeadlySins> if you are aiming for a hiding pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> and it has limbs sticking out
<SevenDeadlySins> one would assume that pokemon are, indeed, not stone fucking retarded
<SevenDeadlySins> and would attempt to aim around
<iiMKUltra> alch i take offense that you consider my chandelure that simple
<SevenDeadlySins> or in this case not even limbs
<Elgyem> pokemon are pretty retarded, they need to get ordered to do things 9.9
<Elgyem> but it isn't quite just plonking yourself behind something
<SevenDeadlySins> but about 2/3 of the body
<Elgyem> if you were to take cover irl, it's a lot more instant
<Elgyem> the gunman or whatever doesn't stop and reassess whether there are limbs sticking out
<Elgyem> he fires at the bloody wall/car/person (o_o)
<iiMKUltra> using an attack is far less instantaneous than firing a gun
<SevenDeadlySins> only in movies and video games
<Elgyem> of course sds, since real life situations are otherwise less common
<SevenDeadlySins> firing at the wall is stone stupid irl, that's why very few people do it
<SevenDeadlySins> it's pissing away bullets
<Elgyem> I don't mean an entire clip obviously
<SevenDeadlySins> when reloading puts you at significant risk
<Elgyem> but for the preliminary "attack" you would, just because you're trying to follow your target but something gets in the way
<Elgyem> that you didn't quite predict
<Elgyem> am I lagging or is it just quiet.
<SevenDeadlySins> it's me about to go to bed
<iiMKUltra> happy 4:30 am sds 9.9
<Elgyem> well this conversation has been a lot more civilised than it usually is between us haha
<SevenDeadlySins> but honestly take cover being 100% is kinda the same deal as dodge being 100%
<Elgyem> so thank you
<SevenDeadlySins> in that it's largely retarded
<iiMKUltra> what about evasive agility :/
<SevenDeadlySins> because take cover is essentially a dodge
<Elgyem> well take cover and bodyblock aren't quite dodge, since something *is* taking the damage and effect
<Elgyem> but yes, it probably shouldn't be 100%
<SevenDeadlySins> evasive agility needs work but just an increase in energy cost when used as an evasive move would make sense
<SevenDeadlySins> as it stands it's a protect that can only be used against faster pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> er
<SevenDeadlySins> slower pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> dig fly bounce are the real problems
<Elgyem> perhaps take cover's % of success should decrease with difference in size class decreasing
<SevenDeadlySins> that would make sense
<Elgyem> with a sc difference of 0 being 50% perhaps
<SevenDeadlySins> calculate based on the difference between blocker and attacker
<iiMKUltra> no sds
<iiMKUltra> evasive agility is a dickshitting +1 priority
<Elgyem> if you incremented it by 25%, SC of 2 would be 100%
<SevenDeadlySins> when did that change
<SevenDeadlySins> that is retarded
<iiMKUltra> idk, but it is
<iiMKUltra> i know right!
<Elgyem> dig is quite retarded
<iiMKUltra> it's still the same 6 en or whatever
<SevenDeadlySins> digflybounce are still the real problems
<iiMKUltra> dig's fine
<SevenDeadlySins> and no, "just use a combo" is not a viable answer
<SevenDeadlySins> no
<iiMKUltra> 12 en or something
<SevenDeadlySins> no it isn't
<SevenDeadlySins> 12 en for protect + damage against slower opponents?
<SevenDeadlySins> and logic
<SevenDeadlySins> and examples
<iiMKUltra> when has that happened
<SevenDeadlySins> when i tell him to do something usually
<iiMKUltra> then he's not being swayed by reason/logic/examples
<iiMKUltra> he's being swayed by you, and your name/status
<Alch> I would ask your opinion, sds, but precedent shows it'll be the exact opposite to mine :P
<iiMKUltra> if i told him the same things with the same reasoning
<iiMKUltra> i am 95% certain they wouldn't get done
<dogfish44> ^ 100% certain for me
<SevenDeadlySins> alch, your instinct is correct
<SevenDeadlySins> in the case of bodyblocking
<SevenDeadlySins> the pokemon is actively making an attempt to block incoming attacks
<SevenDeadlySins> thus the equivalent size thing
<SevenDeadlySins> it can spread itself out and consciously provide protection
<SevenDeadlySins> in the case of taking cover
<SevenDeadlySins> pokemon are not static objects
<SevenDeadlySins> i can hide behind a rock my size
<SevenDeadlySins> but if that rock is moving, it's gonna need to be really big for me to hide behind it with any regularity and reliability
<Alch> Indeed, but this can be turned around again
<Alch> Bodyblocking is putting yourself in the way of a specific attack
<Alch> Taking cover is putting someone else in the way
<SevenDeadlySins> no it can't
<Alch> Thus for that moment in time, it's static
<SevenDeadlySins> no it isn't
<SevenDeadlySins> it is never static
<SevenDeadlySins> and attacks do not last for a single moment
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<Alch> If this is the case, how can a mon bodyblock another for an entire action, as it runs around brick breaking for example
<SevenDeadlySins> because in the bodyblock case
<SevenDeadlySins> the shield is consciously blocking specific attacks
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<SevenDeadlySins> and is actively participating in the blocking
<SevenDeadlySins> thus its movements are designed specifically to block attacks
<SevenDeadlySins> in the take cover case
<SevenDeadlySins> the shield is off doing its own shit
<SevenDeadlySins> and its movements are entirely counterproductive when it comes to being able to reliably avoid things
<dogfish44> No SDS, the shield is simply blocking all attacks, whether 1 attack or multiple attacks.
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: you know what i mean
<dogfish44> no, I don't actually
<SevenDeadlySins> the shield is intent on providing protection
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<SevenDeadlySins> which means any movements made by the shield are beneficial to the shielding
<dogfish44> in both cases, there is 1 moving mon and 1 mon attacking
<Alchemator> The taking cover mon is actively avoiding the attacks. Plus, in this case, the mon providing the shield is the last to move.
<SevenDeadlySins> i'm assuming neither of you have tried to dodge behind a moving object that isn't being helpful
<iiMKUltra> hm
<SevenDeadlySins> it's not exactly simple
<dogfish44> ...isn't being helpful?
<dogfish44> It's a teammate
<dogfish44> it WOULD be helpful
<iiMKUltra> maybe the prc could actually do something now
<SevenDeadlySins> yes but unless its action is "block" it's not blocking
<Alchemator> I think if you're quicker than said thing, it isn't as difficult as you might think
<dogfish44> not to the extent of going out of its way, but not being unhelpful
<SevenDeadlySins> i'm a pretty spry guy, alch
<SevenDeadlySins> it's fucking hard
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<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: any unexpected movement is unhelpful
<Alchemator> This situation is a lot more extreme, it's mons after all
<SevenDeadlySins> you're hiding behind something to avoid an ice beam
<dogfish44> ...it's a teammate, the movement WOULDN'T be unexpected
<SevenDeadlySins> and it moves six inches to the left
<Alchemator> As you see it move, you move
<Alchemator> It's like marking in miscellaneous team sports
<dogfish44> why have you assumed that it has moved 6 inches to the left?
<SevenDeadlySins> reaction is always slower than action
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: why have you assumed that it hasn't
<dogfish44> burden of proof ^-^
<SevenDeadlySins> there is no fucking burden of proof here
<dogfish44> I'm making a negative claim, hence the burden of the proof is on you
<SevenDeadlySins> what the christ
<SevenDeadlySins> it may or may not be moving
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<SevenDeadlySins> this can never be proven
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<SevenDeadlySins> but whether or not it can be proven is beyond the point
<Alch> Why must my connection fail now ._.
<dogfish44> If someone was taking cover behind me, I'd subconsciously try to keep the thing behind me
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<SevenDeadlySins> unless the two are telepathically linked
<Alch> Beheeyem does have telepathy here actually
<Elgyem> xD
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<SevenDeadlySins> there's no way for two similarly sized objects to move in tandem effectively enough for a: one to perform an action while "subconsciously blocking"
<SevenDeadlySins> or b: one to reliably hide behind a moving object
<SevenDeadlySins> thus the point of the size class difference
<Elgyem> the specific situation we're talking about is a +spe starmie taking cover behind a -spe beheeyem -- that's a 100 base point speed difference
<SevenDeadlySins> and?
<SevenDeadlySins> i don't see speed factoring in here at all
<SevenDeadlySins> plus if anything that's kinda silly because starmie is rather wide and beheeyem is rather skinny
<Elgyem> we were talking before about being able to continuously take cover behind a slower pokemon
<dogfish44> I'm gonna eplain my stance: If a target is moving to attack (Using contact moves), then Take Cover should ALWAYS work. If using a move which requires very little motion (Flamethrower), it should work as the current ststem. IF a move which requires no motion whatsoever is being used (Psychic), then it should work as Alch has proposed
<Elgyem> this is quite an extreme speed difference
<SevenDeadlySins> dogfish44: the funny thing is
<SevenDeadlySins> that's the complete opposite of how it should work
<dogfish44> really?
<SevenDeadlySins> the chance of take cover failing should decrease as the amount the blocker moves increases
<Elgyem> I'm not sure about the first two being the right way around actually
<SevenDeadlySins> er
<SevenDeadlySins> should increase
<Elgyem> that's actually true
<dogfish44> ...sorry, I meant if a target is moving it should ALWAYS fail x.x
<iiMKUltra> so dogfish
<Elgyem> but surely this is when speed comes into things
<SevenDeadlySins> no
<iiMKUltra> for a fire punch
<dogfish44> typo when being pestered by little brother
<iiMKUltra> a wailord can hide behind a caterpie
<iiMKUltra> ??
<Elgyem> beheeyem here is the last to move, starmie is the first to move
<SevenDeadlySins> speed is more reflex than actual movement speed
<iiMKUltra> oh you've just corrected that
<Elgyem> what I'm saying, sds, is that the two opponent pokemon move before beheeyem, when starmie is already taking cover
<Elgyem> surely in this case it's irrelevant whether beheeyem uses a contact move or a special move
<SevenDeadlySins> i still think the whole thing is silly too because starmie is like twice as wide as beheeyem
<dogfish44> I don't particularly like take cover OR bodyblock
<iiMKUltra> take cover is fine
<SevenDeadlySins> i would imagine a pokemon doesn't sit around picking its nose waiting to get hit during a round
<iiMKUltra> bodyblock is op
<SevenDeadlySins> doesn't matter balance wise
<SevenDeadlySins> they're both just kinda stupid
<iiMKUltra> though given the choice i'd have neither
<Elgyem> attacks pretty much always aim for the centre of the pokemon unless otherwise instructed, so I'd say breadth doesn't matter
<SevenDeadlySins> if you are aiming for a hiding pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> and it has limbs sticking out
<SevenDeadlySins> one would assume that pokemon are, indeed, not stone fucking retarded
<SevenDeadlySins> and would attempt to aim around
<iiMKUltra> alch i take offense that you consider my chandelure that simple
<SevenDeadlySins> or in this case not even limbs
<Elgyem> pokemon are pretty retarded, they need to get ordered to do things 9.9
<Elgyem> but it isn't quite just plonking yourself behind something
<SevenDeadlySins> but about 2/3 of the body
<Elgyem> if you were to take cover irl, it's a lot more instant
<Elgyem> the gunman or whatever doesn't stop and reassess whether there are limbs sticking out
<Elgyem> he fires at the bloody wall/car/person (o_o)
<iiMKUltra> using an attack is far less instantaneous than firing a gun
<SevenDeadlySins> only in movies and video games
<Elgyem> of course sds, since real life situations are otherwise less common
<SevenDeadlySins> firing at the wall is stone stupid irl, that's why very few people do it
<SevenDeadlySins> it's pissing away bullets
<Elgyem> I don't mean an entire clip obviously
<SevenDeadlySins> when reloading puts you at significant risk
<Elgyem> but for the preliminary "attack" you would, just because you're trying to follow your target but something gets in the way
<Elgyem> that you didn't quite predict
<Elgyem> am I lagging or is it just quiet.
<SevenDeadlySins> it's me about to go to bed
<iiMKUltra> happy 4:30 am sds 9.9
<Elgyem> well this conversation has been a lot more civilised than it usually is between us haha
<SevenDeadlySins> but honestly take cover being 100% is kinda the same deal as dodge being 100%
<Elgyem> so thank you
<SevenDeadlySins> in that it's largely retarded
<iiMKUltra> what about evasive agility :/
<SevenDeadlySins> because take cover is essentially a dodge
<Elgyem> well take cover and bodyblock aren't quite dodge, since something *is* taking the damage and effect
<Elgyem> but yes, it probably shouldn't be 100%
<SevenDeadlySins> evasive agility needs work but just an increase in energy cost when used as an evasive move would make sense
<SevenDeadlySins> as it stands it's a protect that can only be used against faster pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> er
<SevenDeadlySins> slower pokemon
<SevenDeadlySins> dig fly bounce are the real problems
<Elgyem> perhaps take cover's % of success should decrease with difference in size class decreasing
<SevenDeadlySins> that would make sense
<Elgyem> with a sc difference of 0 being 50% perhaps
<SevenDeadlySins> calculate based on the difference between blocker and attacker
<iiMKUltra> no sds
<iiMKUltra> evasive agility is a dickshitting +1 priority
<Elgyem> if you incremented it by 25%, SC of 2 would be 100%
<SevenDeadlySins> when did that change
<SevenDeadlySins> that is retarded
<iiMKUltra> idk, but it is
<iiMKUltra> i know right!
<Elgyem> dig is quite retarded
<iiMKUltra> it's still the same 6 en or whatever
<SevenDeadlySins> digflybounce are still the real problems
<iiMKUltra> dig's fine
<SevenDeadlySins> and no, "just use a combo" is not a viable answer
<SevenDeadlySins> no
<iiMKUltra> 12 en or something
<SevenDeadlySins> no it isn't
<SevenDeadlySins> 12 en for protect + damage against slower opponents?
Summary: Make Take Cover (and perhaps bodyblock) something like this:
Take Cover said:
Obviously the exact numbers are still up for discussion, but this seems to be the fairest way to progress. Perhaps the energy cost should also change as the chance of success changes.
Could multiple target moves have a increased energy cost in multiple battles, they are very powerful, and even with their power reduced there's still STAB, stats difference and secondary effects (all of which increase because of the increased number of targets (they even have an "increased" crit chance thanks to being more targets being able to be critted) this makes them just as good as normal hitting moves that happen to hit twice (or more times) and gives the users something like a double turn, i think just like with dig and giga drain, increase it's cost, something like In multiple battles the energy cost for this move increases in x for the number of enemy targets damaged by this attack, this would help reduce their power and make multiple battles less about earthquake/discharge/heat wave spamming and more about multiples strategy
First of all, there have been plenty of complaints that Endure, in its current form, is really strong. Probably too strong. I'd like to bring up the idea of dropping the ability to exhaust yourself without fainting, but more importantly, I'd like to suggest a different change; Endure still lasts for the entire round, but can only save you at 1 HP once. For example, if my Pokemon uses Endure A1 and is saved by Endure from what would otherwise be a knockout blow on A1, then the other Pokemon can finish me off with a second attack on A2. However, if the opponent doesn't attack till A3, or attacks once and doesn't make a second attack, I could live the blow and survive the round. Food for thought.
Also, since I'm already here, I'd like to ask about Double Team (this would probably be better suited in SQSA or DAT but I think I'll be OK here). In the DAT, it says that each clone of Double Team gives +1 evasion. However, most refs ref it completely differently from that; it gives opponent's moves a 1/X+1 chance to hit the correct target, with X being the number of clones. Is the common interpretation correct? If so, then the description of Double Team should probably be changed to clarify this. Also, in that case it's arguable that Haze doesn't remove Double Team clones (Haze's description simply says it resets stats to 0, which wouldn't affect a Double Team that doesn't actually raise the Evasion stat), which it should, so Haze should probably be modified or at least added to saying that it also wipes out Double Team clones.
/end 1 AM ramblings
Also, since I'm already here, I'd like to ask about Double Team (this would probably be better suited in SQSA or DAT but I think I'll be OK here). In the DAT, it says that each clone of Double Team gives +1 evasion. However, most refs ref it completely differently from that; it gives opponent's moves a 1/X+1 chance to hit the correct target, with X being the number of clones. Is the common interpretation correct? If so, then the description of Double Team should probably be changed to clarify this. Also, in that case it's arguable that Haze doesn't remove Double Team clones (Haze's description simply says it resets stats to 0, which wouldn't affect a Double Team that doesn't actually raise the Evasion stat), which it should, so Haze should probably be modified or at least added to saying that it also wipes out Double Team clones.
/end 1 AM ramblings
I support alch's idea I think if we have bodyblock, we should have that as well.
I like Alch's proposed suggestion for Take Cover, as long as it applies to Bodyblock as well.
As for Flamestrike's Endure proposal, I think dropping the no energy KO bit is fair, but making it only save you from regular KO once kinda makes it worthless. With the exception of Flail/Reversal, why would I order Endure -> X when I can just order X?
As for Flamestrike's Endure proposal, I think dropping the no energy KO bit is fair, but making it only save you from regular KO once kinda makes it worthless. With the exception of Flail/Reversal, why would I order Endure -> X when I can just order X?
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