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strategies for countering trick
- Thread starter TVboyCanti
- Start date
I don't think you need to be holding the Choice item to begin with, you just need to receive one.
Most Trickers do hold Choice Items though, I get that.
You know, I came in this topic specifically to say that once the trick glitch is fixed on Shoddy, Magnezone/ton can counter TrickGross leads. Simply switch in and kill him. And here you are already stating the same exact idea. XD
I want to make a comment about the viability of the Sticky Hold Pokemon in OU. While Swalot does kind of...suck, Gastrodon and Muk are both very useful Pokemon. Any team that uses Swampert can be replaced with Gastrodon, both Pokemon have their advantages/disadvantages and Gastrodon does have viability in OU, I've used it myself many times.
Muk isn't right for every team, but it can counter things like SD Lucario (they never, ever have EQ) and can sponge most special hits pretty well. Unfortunately, many trickers are Psychic, whose STAB attacks cause problems for Muk. Muk does better against Ghost-type Trickers, especially with access to Shadow Sneak.
Muk isn't right for every team, but it can counter things like SD Lucario (they never, ever have EQ) and can sponge most special hits pretty well. Unfortunately, many trickers are Psychic, whose STAB attacks cause problems for Muk. Muk does better against Ghost-type Trickers, especially with access to Shadow Sneak.
You know what I'd really like to say? Flame Orb Ursaring.
Not as easily walled as certain other Guts users. I don't play OU, but that's what I'd use to counter Trickers. And Ursaring really will like that Choice Scarf in return after the Flame Orb does its job and it kills the Tricker before it can react.
Not as easily walled as certain other Guts users. I don't play OU, but that's what I'd use to counter Trickers. And Ursaring really will like that Choice Scarf in return after the Flame Orb does its job and it kills the Tricker before it can react.
Problem with this is, they trick a Specs on to your Ursa (who is now practically crippled becuase he's stuck with a useless Specs) then switch themselves out. Later they trick Flame Orb on to one of your Physical attackers, crippling them. Then they switch the Choice Band/Choice Scarf/Life Orb from that physical attacker on to one of your walls.
I mean, it's by no means a guarantee, but I'm just saying that this is not a surefire way to counter trick.
They use Specs as well? *goes back to drawing board*
Well, as I said, I don't play OU. But that's my hypothetical way of beating Trick in most cases.
However, why would you allow them to Trick so many of your Pokemon before said Tricker getting killed or severaly crippled itself? I think that most are fragile things like Gengar/Alakazam/Azelf, or slow things like Rotom/Cresselia (discounting UU for now, whose abundance of Sticky Hold Pokemon mentioned above should make it less of a threat....can't wait for the BL ladder to clean it up).
Well, as I said, I don't play OU. But that's my hypothetical way of beating Trick in most cases.
However, why would you allow them to Trick so many of your Pokemon before said Tricker getting killed or severaly crippled itself? I think that most are fragile things like Gengar/Alakazam/Azelf, or slow things like Rotom/Cresselia (discounting UU for now, whose abundance of Sticky Hold Pokemon mentioned above should make it less of a threat....can't wait for the BL ladder to clean it up).
I've recently found myself using CB Duggy as a lead for this purposes. First off, it keeps the top leads in check quite nicely with pursuit, SE and EQ, as well as outspeeding them. If EVd properly, it can also take a Psychic from an Azelf and 2HKO with Pursuit, leaving it unable to switch out either way fearing the OHKO. Since common leads that trick do include Azelf, and more commonly Bronzong, they'd be quite foolish to trick against Duggy (never once had a Zong lead that was attacking first turn anyway. It always tricks.)
Actually, Guts users to stop Choice Scarf Tricking is quite a good idea. Every Guts user that's burned/poisoned doesn't really need it after it worked it magic for a turn, it gets a free speed boost and cripples the opponent. Swellow, Heracross, Ursaring, Raticate. The problem I see is that there needs to be turn where they hold Flame/Toxic Orb for it to activate, but that can easily be solved by putting Protect on said Pokemon. Imagine ScarfCross with a Guts boost, you're abusing the opponent for TrickScarfing.
The thing is, Dugtrio can't really do anything to Bronzong in return, and CB Dugtrio is 1HKO'd by any of Metagross's attacks as well as running the 60% risk of Flinchax from Jirachi (haven't done damage calculations yet, but I figure Iron Head is OHKO), 2 very common Trick leads.
Metagross is still outsped by a scarfed dugtrio and at least 79%ed from an earthquake since an adamant bullet punch will not 2HKO if you invest at least a few defensive EVs.
Jirachi is almost OHKOed by an EQ, and despite taking the predicted iron head and not dying, I can easily switch to something like scizor,hippo or whatever which can set up on the locked in Jirachi.
Bronzong is a simple case... night slash to get some damage off and then see what happens next, responding to the incoming EQ/Gyro Ball or Trick, by switching to something like Hippo or Scizor (yet again). This is why Dugtrio and Hippowdon makes for a great synergetic combo. Duggy takes care of standard leads, then hippo takes care of the trickers by walling them and getting rocks up. Complex to understand, I know, but it's effective once you see it play out.
Jirachi is almost OHKOed by an EQ, and despite taking the predicted iron head and not dying, I can easily switch to something like scizor,hippo or whatever which can set up on the locked in Jirachi.
Bronzong is a simple case... night slash to get some damage off and then see what happens next, responding to the incoming EQ/Gyro Ball or Trick, by switching to something like Hippo or Scizor (yet again). This is why Dugtrio and Hippowdon makes for a great synergetic combo. Duggy takes care of standard leads, then hippo takes care of the trickers by walling them and getting rocks up. Complex to understand, I know, but it's effective once you see it play out.
I was responding to the point about CB Dugtrio, not Scarf Dugtrio, that's a whole other story. Not to mention in your example, the Super-fast Scarf Trio is clearly OHKO'd by the super-slow Bronzong and his super-powerful CB Gyro Ball, so it really is not a good idea to leave Dugtrio in on Bronzong at all unless you're absolutely sure it's gonna Trick.
And not to mention that Hippowdon/Dugtrio have terrible synergy, giving you 2 of the EXACT SAME TYPING AND WEAKNESSES on a single team. In the cases you listed, Choice Scarf/Specs Magnezone is the much better candidate (in a metagame where Trick works correctly).
That's really irrelivant.
They serve ENTIRELY different roles. For example, Infernape and Heatran have weaknesses that just pile on top of one another but function quite nicely together. Same as here, Duggy is a revenge killer and Lead whilst Hippowdon is there for support in putting up SR and setting up a sandstorm. Any good player is able to balance out a situation like this if they carry Pokemon whose weaknesses and Strengths balance out evenly with these 2 Pokemon (have an HP Electric vaporeon to come in on incoming surfs, then combo that with a celebi and heatran.), so having the same typing doesn't matter.
Wow, after playing for a few hours on shoddy,all leads run choice scarf and trick. And I now realize why. In this new metagame, it is impossible to not have a choice scarf tricked onto your pokemon if your opponent decides they want to do that to you. This move is totally broken without anyway to dump the scarf or prevent the lead from using trick. All players are forced to use a choice pokemon or a trick pokemon on their team or play minus one pokemon. All the sticky hold pokemon are so pathetic that they can just be killed by the common leads attacks anyway.
If that is not maximum overcentralization I don't know what is. I feel that trick needs to be considered suspect asap.
Trick is taking this game in a terrible direction. I predict that people won't want to call it what it is until 2 months from now when only trick leads are in the top 50% of weighted leads. I guess I'll have to sit things out until then.
If that is not maximum overcentralization I don't know what is. I feel that trick needs to be considered suspect asap.
Trick is taking this game in a terrible direction. I predict that people won't want to call it what it is until 2 months from now when only trick leads are in the top 50% of weighted leads. I guess I'll have to sit things out until then.
On shoddy Trick has become something very predictable because you see the same exact pokes use it every time, in addition to most likely knowing the rest of the moveset (probably three attack moves and little to no defense and HP). So you can have a designated member that can switch in on most Trickers with little to no trouble and accept the Scarf. Yeah, that's the thing, you just have to accept it, as it is pretty impractical to straight up counter it. It's a matter of dealing with it.
Unhealthy for the metagame? Wait until it's fixed, but as of right now it is pretty bad.
Unhealthy for the metagame? Wait until it's fixed, but as of right now it is pretty bad.
