Metagame Suicide Cup

Quick Question: is Mega Gengar banned in this meta?
No. Unless STag gets banned for some reason, it likely will never be banned.

As the meta has developed quickly with the influx of OMotM players, it might be worth adding some more notables nominations and changes for viability...



Agree with most of this, firstly.

Smeargle just needs its own tier; it probably has over 90% usage on good teams, and is able to provide unique and unpredictable support to glue teams together, alongside its domination of the Mind Blown niche.

Espeon should be in whatever the tier below is, probably alongside the other royalty of splashable agile mons like Accelgor, Ditto and Goth family.

Dugtrio maybe should be B+. It's now extremely common to see either Espeon and/or Absol on the opposing team, but moreover, somebody in chat pointed out that by having Espeon use Skill Swap on the turn it dies to Sludge/Toxic, Dugtrio can come in on the free switch and safely set rocks against many opponents. This kind of opportunity of course takes some time to set up at best (and will frequently be disrupted by needing to go to a Trick switch-in, etc) but can still provide a strong late-game boost if you can kill a chain on mons in one turn from switch-in damage.

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Comfey: B/B+? Priority healing that outspeeds Prankster sub or Grass Terrain for persistent disruption, 100 Speed Taunt and Magic Coat provide sufficient support.

Gardevoir family: B/B+? Trace seems very solid in a meta where so many mons are used for abilities like Magic Bounce and Shadow Tag. Great support movepool from Psychic typing. Seems to outclass Alakazam family alongside Deoxys after Magic Guard ban.

Wimpod B-? Wimp Out, favoured ability of the ill-fated Suicide Cup Hackmons ladder, is exclusive to this mon, activating after Black Sludge damage to provide momentum. Its movepool is mediocre but has the bread-and-butter Taunt+Sub, with a decent 80 speed for its fragility.

Mega Banette: B- Seemingly viable due to Sableye missing Curse from its movepool. Prankster Curse enables quick and reliable death without passive damage, which can be combined with a well-timed Prankster Pain Split to disrupt an incoming opponent, with Mega Stone Trick immunity enabling some nice switch-in opportunities.

Mega Gengar: B-? Not as sure about this, but also seems to be on some good teams abusing a fast Curse/Pain Split alongside Shadow Tag.

Hoopa: B/B-? This thing is so much fun; Magician Hyperspace Hole would likely be ban-worthy if it didn't OHKO half the meta, not to mention chain-flinging Black Sludge. Challenging to use but potentially the most effective item denial monster yet.
As with every VR suggestion, I think I will respond to each individual criticism.

Comfey: This is something I have no particular memories of. Its not annoying, its not particularly scary, its just a stepping stone to victory/failure. I'm not gonna respond too much to this, because of my lack of memories fighting it.

Gardevoir: Plot Twist, the next version of the VR has this at A-. I do agree with this ranking myself, having used it a ton lately.

Wimpod: Wut? Wai?

Mega Banette: Its definitely interesting to fight against, though I haven't fought it in a while. For the most part, I agree with the ranking here.

Mega Gengar: I used to use it. Its garbage. If we had an unlisted tier, it would go there.

Hoopa: Before I fought it, I would say it has no business being used. Now that I have some experience with it, I'll say its a unique experience that's pretty neat. I'd agree with this, since we don't have an official C rank yet.
 
We've just updated the Suicide Cup Viability rankings. I know you might think we took long, but that's only because we wanted it to be absolutely perfect!

The changes are as follows:

Accelgor: A+ ---> S-
Espeon: A ---> S-

Gothitelle family: A+ ---> S-
Murkrow: A ---> A+
Darmanitan: Unranked ----> A
Jynx family: B+ ---> A
Gulpin: B ---> A-

Comfey: Unranked ----> B+
Decidueye: Unranked: ----> B+
Deoxys-S: A ---> B+
Dugtrio: B- ---> B+
Celebi: Unranked ---> B

Gastly: A- ---> B+
Noivern: B+ ---> B
Politoed: A- ---> B+
Sunkern: A- ---> B
Swampert: B+ ---> B-

Alakazam & Kadabra: A ---> Unranked
Deoxys-A: A ---> Unranked
Illumise: A ---> Unranked
Latios: A- ---> Unranked
Luvdisc: B ----> Unranked

Pichu: B ---> Unranked
Volbeat: A ---> Unranked

Banette-Mega: Unlisted ----> Do Not Use
Diancie-Mega: Unlisted ----> Do Not Use
Gengar-Mega: Unlisted ----> Do Not Use


As you can see, we've just added an S- rank. This is because there is a clear gap between Smeargle and the other top tiers in the VR. Additionally, S- is the perfect ranking for Espeon and Accelgor, who both excel as fantastic sub-passers in the current metagame. Murkrow's is no surprise. The resurgence of Toxic Orb has turned Whirlwind into a very popular pick.

Darmanitan is interesting, It has a base speed stat of 95, Its versatility grants a lot of options to the user. Darmanitan is definitely one of the best Belly Drummers in the current metagame. Jynx has always been underrated, which is kind of surprising, given the fact that it has Oblivious + Taunt. It's generally very difficult to deal with. It even has an unexplored lure set with its other ability, Dry Skin, and a moveset of Mean Look / Skill Swap, / Water Gun / Substitute.

Gulpin is just really hilarious. Its Belch set is powerful, and it's the second best Pokemon with access to Sticky Hold. It can also use a normal set that utilizes Snatch, but it's ultimately worse than the Belch set. I suppose the rest are just really self-explanatory. Volbeat and Illumise are much worse than Accelgor (Prankster doesn't really help them establish a niche over Accelgor.)

Banette-Mega, Diancie-Mega and Gengar-Mega are very bad. I'll acknowledge that Banette-Mega can sometimes work decently well, but I'm afraid to say Curse has too many problems in Suicide Cup. It is an incredibly risky move, and will often result in the opponent Baton Passing the damage away. It doesn't help that Espeon can Baton Pass freely against Banette-Mega. If Banette-Mega could use a Black Sludge, then it would have definitely become one of the most useful Pokemon in the meta. I don't see a reason to use Banette-Mega when you can use the incredibly safe Mismagius.


I'd also like to welcome Jrsmash9's to the council! He's been a stellar addition to the Suicide Cup Council, and has helped us a lot with the VR! I'd also like to thank the Suicide Cup community, as well as my close friends, all of whom have been supporting Suicide Cup in this great experiment. Thank you!
 
Posting Poliwag love since I haven't seen any and it's actually pretty cool.


Poliwag @ Black Sludge
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Encore
- Substitute
- Hail

Poliwag has Damp, and a modest speed stat of 90 which lets it be a good stop to Smeargle's shenanigans. Its movepool is small but concise: Belly Drum to kill self, Encore to gain even more momentum on Smeargle or anything that uses an unfavorable move, Substitute to dodge Heal Pulses and kill self, and Hail to self KO if you lose item. Overall a simple and effective set.
 
Posting Poliwag love since I haven't seen any and it's actually pretty cool.


Poliwag @ Black Sludge
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Encore
- Substitute
- Hail

Poliwag has Damp, and a modest speed stat of 90 which lets it be a good stop to Smeargle's shenanigans. Its movepool is small but concise: Belly Drum to kill self, Encore to gain even more momentum on Smeargle or anything that uses an unfavorable move, Substitute to dodge Heal Pulses and kill self, and Hail to self KO if you lose item. Overall a simple and effective set.
I just realised that Poliwag utterly outclasses Politoed. There's no reason to use Politoed over Poliwag. It's actually quite fast! I edited the VR accordingly.
 
I just realised that Poliwag utterly outclasses Politoed. There's no reason to use Politoed over Poliwag. It's actually quite fast! I edited the VR accordingly.
Well, I guess Politoed can do some drizzle stuff against solar power things, but damp is pretty cool too.
 
I just realised that Poliwag utterly outclasses Politoed. There's no reason to use Politoed over Poliwag. It's actually quite fast! I edited the VR accordingly.


Great job with the VR update BTW, especially the top tier splits.

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Forgot two VR nominations from yesterday...

Tapu Bulu: B- If you could pick any Pokemon at all to pass a final turn Perish to, it would be this due to the free Grassy Terrain on switch in. It should run Red Card to auto phaze, but has Whirlwind for emergencies. A small niche, but Bulu is the master of it.

Weavile: B- Taunt + Pickpocket is a great combo against Black Sludge users, and you can forcibly remove items from behind a sub by setting up taunt with Goth. Fling and Thief are usable although with unfortunately high damage, and 125 Speed Dark typing is great when going up against Prankster users. Can't forget Assist, either.
 
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I haven't tested Clawitzer but it looks kinda bad. It's slow af, has a bad movepool (no Taunt), and can't do anything against Sub or Taunt Smeargle (and almost any Smeargle will run either of these moves). Comfey is better with Grassy Terrain + Floral Healing, and fast Taunt (and even then, it's not exactly stellar).
 
[\QUOTE]God, I almost missed Pastebin after moving over to Pokepaste. Its been too long since I've seen pastebin used for the mons stuff. The one thing I want to warn you about: Trick Room is sadly not that great. I really tried to make it work early on, but no dice. If you can make it work, than I'd be happy to steal use the team some. Anyway, on to my suggestions for the team:
  • Smeargle: I don't really like using Imprison on any Pokemon but Sableye. In addition, although I know the strategy of MBouncing Purify to essentially Heal Pulse Espeon, I don't like using Purify without Knock Off myself.
  • Ditto: looks good, although I feel troubled by the 1 HP IV. I don't know if it makes a difference, I simply use 0 HP IVs, but I don't know if there is any inherent difference. The only other thing I'd suggest is Sticky Barb, since it allows you to lol at Poison types that think they are Imposter Proof.
  • Slowpoke: fine to me for the most part, barring a few things: I'm not a fan of Toxic Orb outside of a few Pokemon (Mightyena instantly comes to mind), and the set is awfully weak to Trick+Pecha, so I'd slash Trick Room for Hail to keep it Trick safe.
  • Duskull: Trick+Pecha isn't very reliable anymore, since almost every Pokemon has adapted to it, and can kill itself without an item, and you'd be much better off with a filler move (likely Snore, you are awfully Taunt weak so far).
  • Inkay: Taunt over Rain Dance. Now. Also, Pecha without Trick. Change that.
  • Alolan Marowak: Bog standard, no issues there.
Now, for my edited version that should work a bit better: Click Here.[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for your advice, it has been very useful.
 

BackAtYouBro

Cute & Dumb
is a Pre-Contributor
Love what you've guys done with the tier! This is probably one of my favorite OMs! I love the principle of doing the exact opposite of what is done! I've been experimenting with some mons and I feel like I can put my opinion on them.
I really like Ditto in the tier. It's main issue is how matchup reliant it can be and it can't impostor in front of a sub. It of course can run Sticky Barb in case of Poison types as well. I've used this thing to some really nice success and it's the 2nd most splashable mon in the tier. It has tons of potential to screw over your opponent as you use their moves against them.
I am in love with Comfey currently. Priority healing is such a boon for the mon. With proper prediction, you can come in on a Smeargle and heal them back up before they kill themselves with a second Mind Blown. You can also use Grassy Terrain to disrupt Hail and other weather and it has access to Taunt and even Tailwind for slower builds. It's power to disrupt your opponent's team should give it a rise.


A rise for Mega Absol is long overdue. I have lost to this fucker many times because he keeps combining its perish song power with phazers and sometimes belly drummers. He is the core mon of perish trapping teams and forces you to run gastro acid and worry seed to negate magic bounce. Also if you don't have a consistent phazer, you're going to have a very tough time against M-Absol.

Edit: Gastro and Worry get bounced off kek. Magic Bounce and Oblivious are the two abilities that I tend to forget sometimes lol. Just proves that it REALLY needs a rise.
I have never seen Swampert in Suicide Cup at all. Please tell me, what does it even do? I know it has Roar for phazing but what role does it even have that has kept it in the vr?

Just a nice post here! Keep up the great work with Suicide Cup!
 
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I just wanted to share my thoughts on the meta : I love how it's completely different from all other existing metas with just one simple change. Also, I feel that it's remarkably balanced, mainly things are trying to kill themselves (you cannot be "swept" by a single op mon because it will just die on its own accord eventually). I also love how some very cheesy things like Gulpin can actually become viable. Definetly one of my most refreshing experiences on PS.

On a side note, what's with all the MAbsol teams ? In my experience Perish Song is quite easy to abuse as many teams don't even run good phasers and usually crumble to Magic Coat. Last time I played I encountered something like 5 or 6 of these teams in a row...
 

BackAtYouBro

Cute & Dumb
is a Pre-Contributor
I just wanted to share my thoughts on the meta : I love how it's completely different from all other existing metas with just one simple change. Also, I feel that it's remarkably balanced, mainly things are trying to kill themselves (you cannot be "swept" by a single op mon because it will just die on its own accord eventually). I also love how some very cheesy things like Gulpin can actually become viable. Definetly one of my most refreshing experiences on PS.

On a side note, what's with all the MAbsol teams ? In my experience Perish Song is quite easy to abuse as many teams don't even run good phasers and usually crumble to Magic Coat. Last time I played I encountered something like 5 or 6 of these teams in a row...
I think a team that's really dedicated to Perish Song is very effective though. This is still a relatively new OM to casual players so there's still tons of experimentation going on so you might not find the best teams with Mega Absol. Perish Song is only really popular because Mega Absol can abuse it for his teammates so easily. Magic Coat is the biggest issue with those teams though I can agree with that.
 
I have never seen Swampert in Suicide Cup at all. Please tell me, what does it even do? I know it has Roar for phazing but what role does it even have that has kept it in the vr?
Used on Perishpass. I believe it's the only Damp Pokemon that can also phaze, and Smeargle can't Nuzzle it, either. It can also threaten to set up Stealth Rocks if the opponent attempts to use Magic Bounce/Coat to counter Roar. I think the drop to B- in VR is correct but it is notable.
 
First off, can I just say that I love this meta? It's so unique and brings out a new side of Pokemon... not to mention I've found it quite balanced from the start, an extraordinary feet for any "obscure" metagame.

Anyways, I wanted to share my sample team if only because I feel too proud of some of my nicknames and I'm one of the few non-founders to crack the top 4 in the ladder :) Enjoy!

Also, I should add, there are so many great (horrible) suicide puns to use when making teams/nicknames. I have way too much fun with this. I haven't decided whether to name my team 13 Reasons Why, 1000 Ways to Die, or any other tasteless suicide joke. That's for you all to choose.

https://pokepast.es/4dca62d3cade85f0

Immenent Suicide (Absol) (F) @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Snatch
- Taunt

Kid Ink (Inkay) (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Suction Cups
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Taunt
- Sunny Day
- Switcheroo

N***az in Paras (Paras) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Dry Skin
Quiet Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Substitute
- Spore
- Sunny Day
- Worry Seed

Might Night (Mightyena) (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Snatch
- Roar
- Taunt
- Substitute

Van Gogh (Smeargle) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Imprison
- Mind Blown
- Heal Pulse

Just Committed (Haunter) (F) @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Knock Off
- Substitute
- Curse
- Taunt

Anyhow, the purpose of this team is to lead with Absol and Perish Song right away, followed by a Baton Pass to Inkay. Suction Cups prevents any PHazing shenanigans, and Mental Herb+Trick Room+Dark typing makes it safe from Taunt. Ideally you use Trick Room then Sunny Day, setting up Paras (I know right?) to Spore first turn out then Sub. Spore and Worry Seed are somewhat counterintuitive, but getting trapped by Goth is never fun.
After Paras dies, it's up to the player to die as fast as possible. Mightyena is great against Pranksters and can shuffle teams around, Haunter (chosen over Mismagius for Knock Off) can mess with items or die in two turns with Sub and Curse, and Smeargle is the best Pokemon in the meta. Imprison is very useful against other Smeargle or really anything with Substitute, as it can then Heal Pulse freely or just die with Mind Blown. Absol should be the last to go, using Perish Song as the game ends.

This team is very fun to use, if only because of some obscure mons like Paras and Inkay (and some overused ones like Absol and Smeargle), and its rather scripted first few turns make it easy on beginners. Have fun dying, and I hope my horrible jokes didn't offend anyone too bad!!
 
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I think Meowth-Alola might have a niche for its ability to phaze Mega Absol using Parting Shot. Unfortunately no Parting Shot user is faster than Absol (feel free to use Persian-Alola if you want the speed tie), but if you can get webs up and your opponent has neither Defog/Rapid Spin nor their own webs, you can completely shut down a perish pass strategy - just send in Meowth whenever Absol gets sent out, and you can phaze them before they have a chance to baton pass. And Meowth gets other useful moves including Taunt and Snatch.
Of course, Smeargle can do the same thing (perhaps even better, since it can use Baton Pass), but you only get one Smeargle per team and it probably has better sets to run.

Also, Mr Mime. If Meowth has successfully carried out the above strategy, then your opponent's last mon will be Absol, and it will come in at -1 speed from webs. Make sure Mr Mime is out when the opponent's second to last mon dies, then Skill Swap to make Absol Soundproof before it can use Perish Song, and it's (probably) game over. Mime also learns Taunt, Snatch, and Thunder Wave, so it's not completely useless against non-perishpass teams.
 
Behold, My First Suicide Cup Team!

BrokenHeart (Luvdisc) (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Agility
- Substitute
- Protect
- Heal Pulse

This Luvdisc is for Heal Pulsing, Substitute+Protect Allows it to easily whittle away it's own health, Agility comes in an odd niche for Luvdisc as it is able to boost up and sub up before an annoying Trick or Taunt. Swift Swim could possibly come in handy if the opponent is using rain, not many teams use rain, but it is better than ruining your own toxic chain by rain.

Swiggity (Swoobat) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Klutz
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Magic Coat
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Skill Swap

This Swoobat is for Klutz skill swapping, annoying the opponent with Magic Coat+T Wave, and Subbing itself up for various benefits, including more damage to itself. Normally used as a lead to immediantly upset the competition with Klutz and and activate it's own orb.

SealTheDeal (Sealeo) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Protect
- Encore
- Substitute

A Belly drum Sealeo designed to dispatch itself as soon as possible and use encore against those who attempt to disrupt it with status moves. Not much to say here.


StarvingArtist (Smeargle) (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Mind Blown
- Baton Pass
- Whirlwind

A Who Perish Songs, whirlwinds those who dare disrupt, and passes on some songs. Also it's head can explode, that is always a plus in this metagame.

SirWagsalot (Poliwag) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Encore
- Protect
- Substitute

This Poliwag is basically the same as Sealeo but with Damp to prevent opposing Smeargle from quickly dispatching themselves.

SizzleFoRizzle (Salazzle) @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Torment
- Protect
- Substitute

Last but not least, Salazzle! Taunt and Torment can quickly turn the opponent into a Salazzle's partner in crime, combining them causes struggling, and Salazzle's low defense causes Salazzle pain. Substitute and Protect are ways of stalling out some Sticky Barb damage. Oblivious mons of course will not be affected by the Taunt, Those will be dealt with by the others. All in all an interesting set.

So guys, tell me what you think about the team. Tell me what I need to change.
 
probably not viable but if you can trap something with a decent attack stat with gengar you can get rid of half of your team. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-759132210

Abra gets one shot by anything with an attack stat around 50.
I think this strategy would work better with Gothitelle:

Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Heal Pulse
- Trick
- ???

With Scarf, you're almost as fast as Gengar (376 vs 394), and you can heal off their Struggle recoil.
It also works nicely with Taunt's three-turn duration:

You Taunt.
Taunt turn 1) Switch out, replacement gets KO'd. Gothitelle comes back in.
Taunt turn 2) Heal Pulse.
Taunt turn 3) Switch out, get KO'd, Gothitelle comes back in, Taunt wears off.
Taunt again and repeat.
 
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I'm glad someone posted about Scarf Trick Gothitelle. It's honestly kind of a stupid set that can run games, and is way better than the mediocre Heal Pulse/Sub/Taunt standard. If you get locked into a move the Gothitelle user can switch back and forth between their Gothita, Gothorita, and Gothitelle, as well as potentially their Diglett or Dugtrio and gradually wear them down while you use up all the PP of your move. Of course this strat can be dodged with fast Subs, Sticky Hold, Baton Passing out, Mind Blowing yourself to death, getting poisoned first, or being a Ghost-type or another Goth, and it can't really do anything if it can't execute the Trick but it can heavily shift a game in one person's favour if it's properly executed, to an almost (?) unfair amount.

Last time I encountered this set, the opponent led with it and I led with Salazzle. Now I am in a situation where no matter which move I click I have to use up all my PP while my opponent can freely kill off their Goths. If I use Taunt they can Struggle kill themselves or just switch back and forth and get chipped by their item. If I use Encore they can just switch, If I use Knock Off they will all be killed by it, etcetera, and once it's all done I'm still left with a useless Salazzle and they're multiple mons down.

Like I said, there's a lot of means to potentially avoid getting in a situation like this, but unlike something like Self Rocks, you can't just switch out of the bad matchup making it more than a gimmick. Am I overreacting in saying that this strategy is a little unfair? Or is the difficulty in successfully executing this a fair tradeoff for how much it can shift the game? Would like to hear about what other people think.
 
Yay, I have managed to take a break from my return to Skyrim, and am ready to respond to what people have posted here. :D

Anyway, time for the responding to begin!

First off, can I just say that I love this meta? It's so unique and brings out a new side of Pokemon... not to mention I've found it quite balanced from the start, an extraordinary feet for any "obscure" metagame.

Anyways, I wanted to share my sample team if only because I feel too proud of some of my nicknames and I'm one of the few non-founders to crack the top 4 in the ladder :) Enjoy!

Also, I should add, there are so many great (horrible) suicide puns to use when making teams/nicknames. I have way too much fun with this. I haven't decided whether to name my team 13 Reasons Why, 1000 Ways to Die, or any other tasteless suicide joke. That's for you all to choose.

https://pokepast.es/4dca62d3cade85f0

Immenent Suicide (Absol) (F) @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Snatch
- Taunt

Kid Ink (Inkay) (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Suction Cups
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Taunt
- Sunny Day
- Switcheroo

N***az in Paras (Paras) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Dry Skin
Quiet Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Substitute
- Spore
- Sunny Day
- Worry Seed

Might Night (Mightyena) (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Snatch
- Roar
- Taunt
- Substitute

Van Gogh (Smeargle) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Imprison
- Mind Blown
- Heal Pulse

Just Committed (Haunter) (F) @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Knock Off
- Substitute
- Curse
- Taunt

Anyhow, the purpose of this team is to lead with Absol and Perish Song right away, followed by a Baton Pass to Inkay. Suction Cups prevents any PHazing shenanigans, and Mental Herb+Trick Room+Dark typing makes it safe from Taunt. Ideally you use Trick Room then Sunny Day, setting up Paras (I know right?) to Spore first turn out then Sub. Spore and Worry Seed are somewhat counterintuitive, but getting trapped by Goth is never fun.
After Paras dies, it's up to the player to die as fast as possible. Mightyena is great against Pranksters and can shuffle teams around, Haunter (chosen over Mismagius for Knock Off) can mess with items or die in two turns with Sub and Curse, and Smeargle is the best Pokemon in the meta. Imprison is very useful against other Smeargle or really anything with Substitute, as it can then Heal Pulse freely or just die with Mind Blown. Absol should be the last to go, using Perish Song as the game ends.

This team is very fun to use, if only because of some obscure mons like Paras and Inkay (and some overused ones like Absol and Smeargle), and its rather scripted first few turns make it easy on beginners. Have fun dying, and I hope my horrible jokes didn't offend anyone too bad!!
As with all the teams/VR stuff I see, I will respond to each Pokemon, one by one.

  • Mega Absol: I'm not a fan of this Pokemon, since it takes some insane skill and a dedicated team to achieve it's full potential, but that's just me.
  • Inkay: I don't like Trick Room myself (it never really worked when I used it), but that isn't the main issue with this; the issue is that you have Switcheroo and Mental Herb. What's even the point?
  • Paras: I can not think straight, but I honestly see no inherent issue with this set. Its just pretty solid as far as I can see. My one question is what are the HP IVs for?
  • Mightyena: Again, the IVs are weird, but this set is pretty great. Mightyena <3
  • Smeargle: I'm still not a fan of Imprison Smeargle, or Substitute on it (Mind Blown two shots it anyway), and Black Sludge is also kinda useless on it for the same reason I say Substitute is meh at best. And yet again, the awkward IVs.
  • Haunter: Ghastly exists. That is all.
Now that this is done, I'm not gonna do any revised team, lol. You can do that yourself.

Behold, My First Suicide Cup Team!

BrokenHeart (Luvdisc) (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Agility
- Substitute
- Protect
- Heal Pulse

This Luvdisc is for Heal Pulsing, Substitute+Protect Allows it to easily whittle away it's own health, Agility comes in an odd niche for Luvdisc as it is able to boost up and sub up before an annoying Trick or Taunt. Swift Swim could possibly come in handy if the opponent is using rain, not many teams use rain, but it is better than ruining your own toxic chain by rain.

Swiggity (Swoobat) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Klutz
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Magic Coat
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Skill Swap

This Swoobat is for Klutz skill swapping, annoying the opponent with Magic Coat+T Wave, and Subbing itself up for various benefits, including more damage to itself. Normally used as a lead to immediantly upset the competition with Klutz and and activate it's own orb.

SealTheDeal (Sealeo) (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Protect
- Encore
- Substitute

A Belly drum Sealeo designed to dispatch itself as soon as possible and use encore against those who attempt to disrupt it with status moves. Not much to say here.


StarvingArtist (Smeargle) (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Mind Blown
- Baton Pass
- Whirlwind

A Who Perish Songs, whirlwinds those who dare disrupt, and passes on some songs. Also it's head can explode, that is always a plus in this metagame.

SirWagsalot (Poliwag) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Encore
- Protect
- Substitute

This Poliwag is basically the same as Sealeo but with Damp to prevent opposing Smeargle from quickly dispatching themselves.

SizzleFoRizzle (Salazzle) @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Torment
- Protect
- Substitute

Last but not least, Salazzle! Taunt and Torment can quickly turn the opponent into a Salazzle's partner in crime, combining them causes struggling, and Salazzle's low defense causes Salazzle pain. Substitute and Protect are ways of stalling out some Sticky Barb damage. Oblivious mons of course will not be affected by the Taunt, Those will be dealt with by the others. All in all an interesting set.

So guys, tell me what you think about the team. Tell me what I need to change.
What I said to the other person.

  • Luvdisc: I actually used Luvdisc when the metagame was first playable on Dragon Heaven, I used a similar set, but with Rain Dance over Agility, and I ran Drizzle Politoed alongside it. I really enjoyed it, but that was early on in the metagame's lifespan. I don't know if it still works.
  • Swoobat: Swoobat seems like the next Magic Guard: absolute cancer. Your set seems to encapsulate what makes a set frustrating to fight.
  • Sealeo: Its been discussed, so I'm not going to say too much about this Pokemon.
  • Smeargle: Pretty standard, not going to say anything more on it.
  • Poliwag: Already discussed...yesterday I think.
  • Salazzle: Fuck Salazzle, lmao. Also, the whole point of Salazzle is to use Snatch. So, why use it if you aren't using Snatch?
That'll be all for this response, hope this helps!

I'm glad someone posted about Scarf Trick Gothitelle. It's honestly kind of a stupid set that can run games, and is way better than the mediocre Heal Pulse/Sub/Taunt standard. If you get locked into a move the Gothitelle user can switch back and forth between their Gothita, Gothorita, and Gothitelle, as well as potentially their Diglett or Dugtrio and gradually wear them down while you use up all the PP of your move. Of course this strat can be dodged with fast Subs, Sticky Hold, Baton Passing out, Mind Blowing yourself to death, getting poisoned first, or being a Ghost-type or another Goth, and it can't really do anything if it can't execute the Trick but it can heavily shift a game in one person's favour if it's properly executed, to an almost (?) unfair amount.

Last time I encountered this set, the opponent led with it and I led with Salazzle. Now I am in a situation where no matter which move I click I have to use up all my PP while my opponent can freely kill off their Goths. If I use Taunt they can Struggle kill themselves or just switch back and forth and get chipped by their item. If I use Encore they can just switch, If I use Knock Off they will all be killed by it, etcetera, and once it's all done I'm still left with a useless Salazzle and they're multiple mons down.

Like I said, there's a lot of means to potentially avoid getting in a situation like this, but unlike something like Self Rocks, you can't just switch out of the bad matchup making it more than a gimmick. Am I overreacting in saying that this strategy is a little unfair? Or is the difficulty in successfully executing this a fair tradeoff for how much it can shift the game? Would like to hear about what other people think.
Yeah, you aren't the only one who I've heard say something like this (I remember Volcanion bringing this up earlier this week in the OMs chatroom), I personally see why (although I don't believe it is OP just right now), and this is definitely a conversation that we need to have; What does everyone else think about TrickScarf Goth? OP, bad, or somewhere in between?
 
Yeah, I've run into a similar strategy more than once where the opponent runs Taunt/Heal Pulse Goths and some other trappers. If they catch you, they render you completely helpless while three of their Pokémon die while healing off all your Struggle damage, then a Diglett/Dugtrio can come in and at least get most of the way fainted before you can throw in any form of disruption. Now, I haven't run the strategy, and I would very much like the input from someone who has to hear what kinds of counterplay they've found has been able to stop them, then I think it'll be fair to decide definitively whether counterplay is too specific/obscure.
However, right now, without that input, I'm thinking that it doesn't justify a ban to trapping abilities in general. If a ban is to be put in place at all, I personally think that only allowing one trapper per team is fair. I'd still like input from people using the strategy before finalizing my opinion, though.

Also, one thing I'd like to ask: is there a reason why Sunkern is listed, but Paras is not? Paras deals with Mind Blown much better: without a -SpD Nature, Paras still gets 100% OHKO'd, while Sunkern only has a 25% chance with full negative SpD investment (both cases assume sun is not active). As such, Paras can run a -Def nature instead to make it more vulnerable to Struggle, while Sunkern is forced to go Naïve. Plus, Paras also gets Spore. Honestly, the only drawback I see is that Dry Skin leaves it vulnerable to Rain and Water attacks, which are both too rare to be that much of a problem. To be fair, I haven't splashed around with Sunkern's moveset, so if it gets something that gives it a niche above Paras, please enlighten me.
 
Also, one thing I'd like to ask: is there a reason why Sunkern is listed, but Paras is not? Paras deals with Mind Blown much better: without a -SpD Nature, Paras still gets 100% OHKO'd, while Sunkern only has a 25% chance with full negative SpD investment (both cases assume sun is not active). As such, Paras can run a -Def nature instead to make it more vulnerable to Struggle, while Sunkern is forced to go Naïve. Plus, Paras also gets Spore. Honestly, the only drawback I see is that Dry Skin leaves it vulnerable to Rain and Water attacks, which are both too rare to be that much of a problem. To be fair, I haven't splashed around with Sunkern's moveset, so if it gets something that gives it a niche above Paras, please enlighten me.
I've looked into Sunkern vs. Paras a bit myself and I believe Sunkern is better on average. First off while Sunkern stands a fairly poor chance at being OHKOd by Mind Blown, it stands a much better chance after one turn of Black Sludge/Sticky Barb damage (although to be fair that does force you in to running either of those items: 0- SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Sunkern: 148-176 (87 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO -- there is only one possible damage roll where Sunkern survives, factoring in the extra item damage). So the difference in Mind Blown matchup isn't too significant. The other difference is movepool: Paras gets some cool stuff like Knock Off, Spore, and Stun Spore, but these moves aren't too useful in practice since Substitute is so common in this metagame and Paras is so slow that it will rarely get a chance to use it (exception being in Trick Room, kudos to that guy with Trick Room Inkay + Paras). Meanwhile Sunkern gets Encore, which is a much more useful move since it bypasses Substitute. Besides that Paras has higher stats in every field except Speed, which isn't great, and with 70 base Attack its Struggles can do a fair amount.

Basically Paras is about as good as Sunkern. Sunkern is generally more useful because of Encore. That said I could see Paras being ranked, albeit lower than Sunkern. They perform basically the same anyway, and Knock Off or Stun Spore can be really good but Paras is so slow that you really need to predict correctly.
 
I'm glad someone posted about Scarf Trick Gothitelle. It's honestly kind of a stupid set that can run games, and is way better than the mediocre Heal Pulse/Sub/Taunt standard. If you get locked into a move the Gothitelle user can switch back and forth between their Gothita, Gothorita, and Gothitelle, as well as potentially their Diglett or Dugtrio and gradually wear them down while you use up all the PP of your move. Of course this strat can be dodged with fast Subs, Sticky Hold, Baton Passing out, Mind Blowing yourself to death, getting poisoned first, or being a Ghost-type or another Goth, and it can't really do anything if it can't execute the Trick but it can heavily shift a game in one person's favour if it's properly executed, to an almost (?) unfair amount.

Last time I encountered this set, the opponent led with it and I led with Salazzle. Now I am in a situation where no matter which move I click I have to use up all my PP while my opponent can freely kill off their Goths. If I use Taunt they can Struggle kill themselves or just switch back and forth and get chipped by their item. If I use Encore they can just switch, If I use Knock Off they will all be killed by it, etcetera, and once it's all done I'm still left with a useless Salazzle and they're multiple mons down.

Like I said, there's a lot of means to potentially avoid getting in a situation like this, but unlike something like Self Rocks, you can't just switch out of the bad matchup making it more than a gimmick. Am I overreacting in saying that this strategy is a little unfair? Or is the difficulty in successfully executing this a fair tradeoff for how much it can shift the game? Would like to hear about what other people think.
Yeah Scarf Goth is very frustrating when you lose to it, and this king of strat (3 trappers or more per team) is not very healthy. It's pretty much obvious from team preview an there are some ways around it, but they all require lots of prediction or a Mega, and it can win a game on turn 1 if you're not prepared or if you don't have the correct team.

Basically the "answers" to Scarf Goth are : Trick Espeon, Trick+Magic Coat Mismagius (Magic Coat on Turn 1 to reflect possible Taunt and move first, Trick their Scarf back on them on Turn 2 if they used Trick on Turn 1, Taunt if not), MGengar, MAbsol, Gulpin (requires SubPass, which is difficult to do vs Scarf Goth unless you have MAbsol), Smeargle. The problem is that unless you can Trick Gothita or Gothorita on the switch, which is very satisfatory but will never happen if they played correctly, you answer will just die at some point and they can switch Goth back in to Trick you.
The only really safe option is MAbsol. I personaly think that the best thing with MAbsol is not PerishPass, but the fact it flat out invalidates nearly all Trick users. And even then a Scarfed Goth can Taunt itself against MAbsol to struggle to death...

Lastly, a lonely Scarf Goth without her usual trapping crew cannot be detected from team preview, cannot be scouted for, and can win a game on turn 1... unless you run into one of these countless MAbsol teams (in which case you'll usually lose horribly).
 

BackAtYouBro

Cute & Dumb
is a Pre-Contributor
At the start of me finding out about this meta, I thought that Smeargle was the biggest threat, but it’s really been this satanic bitch the whole time! I remember when I used Gothitelle just for fun Pecha trick shenanigans, but honestly the fact that scarfed Goth could seal the win on turn 1 if you don’t predict correctly is just insane. Perhaps this should get suspected or maybe the meta will adapt to Goth’s omnipresence.
 

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