Metagame Suicide Cup

Oh, I didn't see OHKO moves and BP under unbanned moves. "Ubers clauses" should probably be changed in the OP then.

As for evasion, I don't really see the benefit of wasting time gathering evasion boosts instead of racking up damage on your Pokemon / taunting / etc. What on earth are you going to do with those boosts? You're just going to eventually have that mon kill itself anyway, might as well get to it from the get go.

The same for the most part applies to Moody, I don't see how the gathered boosts would make Smeargle significantly better than it is now. Some extra speed helps sure but the boosts have a significant chance of hampering you as well and other than speed and evasion none of the stat modifiers are really useful, and even a change in those two stats doesn't affect it in any dramatic way.
 
If Assault Vest is banned because evidently being able to go directly to Struggle (and thereby put yourself on a 4-turn clock) is "too good", is the same true for a moveset of Belch/---/---/---?

One key difference is that the opponent can make that set blow up in your face by flinging one of several types of berry at you, which makes you eligible to use Belch and stop taking recoil (not even switching out will reset that capability, so the mon becomes worse than dead weight at that point). Get those Petaya Berry Flingers ready.
 
If Assault Vest is banned because evidently being able to go directly to Struggle (and thereby put yourself on a 4-turn clock) is "too good", is the same true for a moveset of Belch/---/---/---?

One key difference is that the opponent can make that set blow up in your face by flinging one of several types of berry at you, which makes you eligible to use Belch and stop taking recoil (not even switching out will reset that capability, so the mon becomes worse than dead weight at that point). Get those Petaya Berry Flingers ready.
This does work and it seems kinda broken. The fact that I tested this in NU doesn’t matter. A way to stop this is to ban Belch or require you to have at least two moves.
 
If Assault Vest is banned because evidently being able to go directly to Struggle (and thereby put yourself on a 4-turn clock) is "too good", is the same true for a moveset of Belch/---/---/---?

One key difference is that the opponent can make that set blow up in your face by flinging one of several types of berry at you, which makes you eligible to use Belch and stop taking recoil (not even switching out will reset that capability, so the mon becomes worse than dead weight at that point). Get those Petaya Berry Flingers ready.
This is very interesting, assuming it works this way. Users of this strategy will also be able to use any item of their choosing. I can see Gulpin making good use of Belch. The main issue with this strategy is Gothitelle and partiularly frail Pokemon. Also, not too many Pokemon can learn Belch, making this strategy, at the very least, foreseeable.

I banned Assault Vest mainly because Klutz + Trick can ruin a lot of otherwise 'safe Pokemon'. Slowpoke, for example, can KO itself through Hail and Belly Drum; as such, it doesn't fully rely on its item to faint. Also, immediate Struggle use for every single Pokemon in the game might not be that broken, but it is an incredibly stale tactic—one that I won't endorse. There's always some degree of unhealthiness regarding rewarding strategies that do not require thought. Let's wait and see where this takes us.
 

Alakazam

corrupt auth xd
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Aerodactyl @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Defog

Strategy: Set up stealth rocks on an espeon. Run a team of 5 mons all 4x weak to rocks. Switch out, win. Defog if they switch out their espeon so they don't get rocks
 
Aerodactyl @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Defog

Strategy: Set up stealth rocks on an espeon. Run a team of 5 mons all 4x weak to rocks. Switch out, win. Defog if they switch out their espeon so they don't get rocks
So you're using a strategy that's obvious from team preview but relies on your opponent not seeing it coming?
 

Jrsmash9

jrsmash that timer
Few suggestions to Viability Rankings:

Decidueye UR -> A- Only user with batonpass and curse that is a ghost
Likcilicky Family -> UR Outclassed by walrein, slowpoke and to an extent charizard
Charizard A -> A+ Bellydrum user that can kill iteself 100% with sunnyday
Smeargle S -> S+ Best mon hands down, compareable to lax in gsc
Espeon A -> S Really good utility mon having magic bounce to prevent taunt/phaze spam
Illumise A -> UR Does not have trick like volbeat and oblivious set is outclassed by espeon
Alakazam Family A -> UR Outclassed now that magic guard is banned
Sunkern A- -> B- Really bad mon now that better smeargle checks have been found
Ribombee A -> A- Rise of usage in Espeon/Absol and defog hurts it
Dugtrio B- -> B A counterteaming mon that has a decent niche
 
Yay, I should be more active now that my family excursion is done...oh wait, still got something else to do tomorrow, I guess its gonna be one more day until I can be truly active with SC. Oh well, now that I'm on PC again, I think its time I respond to some of the posts!

Aerodactyl @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Defog

Strategy: Set up stealth rocks on an espeon. Run a team of 5 mons all 4x weak to rocks. Switch out, win. Defog if they switch out their espeon so they don't get rocks
So you're using a strategy that's obvious from team preview but relies on your opponent not seeing it coming?
The thing I see with this is that even if its obvious, it can be hard to realize it. I guess because I don't pay too much attention to other players' teams (outside of Mega Absol teams, which kinda require you to know what's the opponent is trying to do to combat it to win), so it would probably catch me off guard. However, may I ask why Unnerve was chosen on the set? In my experience with Aerodactyl, I've found that Unnerve is a horrible ability for it, since it does nothing to support it, and can potentially backfire. I'm personally not a fan of Aerodactyl now, but I simply feel like it's useless unless it runs Whirlwind, but to each his/her own.

Few suggestions to Viability Rankings:

Decidueye UR -> A- Only user with batonpass and curse that is a ghost
Likcilicky Family -> UR Outclassed by walrein, slowpoke and to an extent charizard
Charizard A -> A+ Bellydrum user that can kill iteself 100% with sunnyday
Smeargle S -> S+ Best mon hands down, compareable to lax in gsc
Espeon A -> S Really good utility mon having magic bounce to prevent taunt/phaze spam
Illumise A -> UR Does not have trick like volbeat and oblivious set is outclassed by espeon
Alakazam Family A -> UR Outclassed now that magic guard is banned
Sunkern A- -> B- Really bad mon now that better smeargle checks have been found
Ribombee A -> A- Rise of usage in Espeon/Absol and defog hurts it
Dugtrio B- -> B A counterteaming mon that has a decent niche
I needed to post this sooner, but I delayed due to our battle just now. Just my opinions on these changes.
Decidueye: I don't know about A-. I don't see Curse+Baton Pass being that big of a niche that it can be considered A-. Now, Ghost type curse is very useful, as Alolan Marowak showed to us, but I don't see the niche Decidueye being A-. I can see B+, but not A-, since its most useful on Mega Absol teams (which have, surprisingly, haven't died down yet).
Lickilicky: Despite the misspelling, I feel like it can stay there, or maybe going down a rank, but not all the way down to unranked, since it is incredibly similar to Walrein. It is similar enough that I can see it staying there.
Charizard: still loses to Taunt, unlike the other big Belly Drummers (other than Alolan Marowak, which kills itself in two turns). If anything, I could see it dropping to A-, because of its massive Taunt weakness.
Smeargle: I don't see any issues with S+, except I don't see there being enough S ranks to justify creating a new sub-tier for the S tier. Once/If Ditto joins S rank, then absolutely, but until then, I disagree.
Espeon: Yes, I'd say its the best Baton Pass user, but I'm not a fan of drastic changes, especially when Ditto isn't yet S rank, despite being arguably better than Smeargle. I really want it to be A+, and last I checked, so does Adrian, but...yeah...
Illumise: I don't know anymore...I would use your own words that "Trick+Pecha is bad" and "Smeargle is the only good user." Yes, its Oblivious set is outclassed by Espeon, but the whole reason to use it is to bluff Prankster, which Volbeat can't do. I will say, however, that both it AND Volbeat should be dropped to A-, since neither pull as much weight as they once did whilst the meta was still developing.
Alakazam: Why is it still there?
Sunkern: Again, not a fan of drastic changes, but yeah, I agree with you there. It definitely should be dropped in ranking, I just don't know if B- is the right tier, maybe B?
Ribombee: Agreed. I was never a fan of it, so I never saw why it was worth A rank. I guess Sticky Webs will be useful for low ladder, but still.
Dugtrio: If Espeon wasn't so good, and Mega Absol was so overrated, than I would suggest making it Unranked. However, in the current metagame, I'd have to say that you are right.

Bare in mind that these are simply my opinions, so I could be wrong. And one thing that needs to change ASAP

Ditto A+ --> S: I may have been the one to get it ranked only A+, but after using it, I now agree with Adrian that it deserves S rank. Its the most safe Pokemon in the meta, as well as the best way to beat Mega Absol teams consistently. It stops so many Pokemon that it deserves S rank.
 
Saw myself in your eyes,
U seemed like you were me
I wasn't the best at goodbyes
Couldn't know you would be.
I thought you'd be the one, could she be my wife?
Didn't realize it was all an Illusion

Ended there my life.

Congrats Adrian and Council!
I had a team idea in my mind, similar to the [RIP] Kill 5 mons Magic Guard strat.
What if, you could kill 5 mons and Purify + Knock Off/Trick the Toxorb off the last remaining mon? And later Taunt, then Heal Pulse etc
Just a random thought.
 
We should write a list of all usefull moves for those that want to start to build and how it could be used in order to win, cause I feel like people still bug about how to win in this meta...
 
Question: In the VR, why isn't Slowbro ranked alongside Slowking and Slowpoke? What's the difference that makes it comparatively unviable? Or is that merely an oversight?
I think it's because slowbro has an higher defense than the other one's in his familly which mean that it takes less of struggle than the other ones...
Oh and slowbro doesn't have dragon tail
 
I'm surprised no one mentioned Trick + Lum Berry, because for me it worked particularly well, to shut down some mon that was just going to toxic itself to death.

Toxic Orb High HP with 252 EVs mon (Drifblim, Wigglytuff) + Pain Split is also a good counter strategy vs Heal Pulse. Beware of Taunt tho.

ex.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756210841
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756207259
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756201566

tested, it does. Please ban or somethin
Counter and Mirror Coat exist too. You can use them when Taunted, and they don't do any damage.
Unless your opponent is stupid enough to damage you with a move.
 
Last edited:
Ekans @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Intimidate
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Belch

Does this work?
Why Ekans instead of something like Slowpoke or Munchlax, so that at least you don't get STAB in case someone neuters the set by hitting you with Petaya Berry Fling (and so that you can use Black Sludge instead of something that turns opponents' contact moves of all sorts into Thief)?
 
tested, it does. Please ban or somethin
We were actually talking about this yesterday; We do know that this is a bit tough to out suicide against, but then again, so is Mind Blown Smeargle, and Alolan Marowak, and many other Pokemon. Simply put, its not enough that its a tough to out suicide to make it banworthy.

I'm surprised no one mentioned Trick + Lum Berry, because for me it worked particularly well, to shut down some mon that was just going to toxic itself to death.

Toxic Orb High HP with 252 EVs mon (Drifblim, Wigglytuff) + Pain Split is also a good counter strategy vs Heal Pulse. Beware of Taunt tho.

ex.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756210841
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756207259
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756201566


Counter and Mirror Coat exist too. You can use them when Taunted, and they don't do any damage.
Unless your opponent is stupid enough to damage you with a move.
Adrian explained why this isn't too great, Pecha is just better. Also, a better strategy against Heal Pulse is Magic Bounce, which is given to Espeon, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Lastly, I'm not a fan of Pain Split, because, like in standard, its not hard for it to backfire against you.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top