Metagame Suicide Cup

Espeon's disruption movepool is shallow, but its fast Trick is nice. Having Trick at the ready, even if Espeon is holding an item that you want, makes it an even safer switch-in, since it could potentially absorb, say, Leppa Berry, before dumping it on something else later on. If you're desperate for another disruptive move, I guess Sing is worth considering, since even though it's unreliable and generally inferior to paralysis in this meta, it has the potential to delay Toxic Orb activation even on a monster that comes in subbed, and possibly creating a chance to permanently remove it later in the match.

If you want a more aggressive Magic Bounce user, Xatu's access to Thunder Wave and Pain Split make it worth considering (it also can't be hazard-trapped by Dugtrio).

---

It seems like Perishpass Absol is often running Hail in its last moveslot, which imo is at best a wasted use of a slot and more often counter-productive, so I'd like to look at other options and recommend a standard set. The problem with Hail is that it's incredibly unlikely to be more efficient at killing Absol than Perish Song; you need to take a very specific amount of damage from opponents' attacks, which you don't have good control over, and it you time it slightly wrong, Absol dies early and might cripple a teammate by removing its only deathcon. Similarly, Hail doesn't help most of the rest of the team much, since they most likely are expecting to die from Perish Song. However, Hail does help the opponent at least as much as you, and probably more if they are running an HO team killing itself through HP damage.

This is what I recommend instead:-

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave/Substitute/Magic Coat/Role Play/Me First

Unlike almost everything else in SC, we're investing in defence, because Absol dying to Struggle/Mind Blown chip damage (or even attracting an assassination attempt from Dugtrio) usually doesn't benefit you, and could cripple its teammates. A Timid nature reduces Attack to limit damage the opponent might receive from struggle.

For the moves, Perish Song + Baton Pass is obvious and mandatory in order to kill yourself and everyone you've ever loved.

Taunt is practically essential, firstly to shut down all kinds of BS that the opponent might be trying to set up, and secondly because if you can force them to Struggle or use another attacking move, you can phaze them out by Baton Passing into a teammate equipped with a Red Card, allowing you to use Pokemon that don't learn phazing moves, or that can spend their perishing turns on utility like setting Sticky Web or healing opponents. Be careful of setting Taunts against opponents that may be able to Magic Coat them back; don't be afraid to check with /learn if you aren't sure.

The fourth slot can be used for additional support or checking counters. Thunder Wave is by far the most generally useful option; since Absol spends so many turns active preparing Perish Song, it has a great chance to be ready to paralyse a fresh opponent before it can activate a Toxic Orb, potentially preventing it from killing itself or giving you free turns. Substitute is much less useful on Absol than typical SC mons for previously explained reasons, but could be used sparingly to defend against added effect attacking moves that can disrupt it through Magic Bounce, such as Nuzzle and Dragon Tail. Magic Coat seems redundant with Magic Bounce, but is the only way for Absol to shut down Hawlucha with its faster Mold Breaker Taunt. Role Play could be used on a predicted Dugtrio switch-in, to prevent it from being able to set up Stealth Rocks by abusing Magic Bounce. Me First (suggested by Greenheroes) is a more aggressive alternative to Sub that enables Absol to phaze most opposing Dragon Tail/Storm Throw users first, although it can't defend against Nuzzle. Me First may also allow Absol to beat a healthy Smeargle one-on-one by outspeeding and copying Mind Blown*.

* Edit: This doesn't work! Copying MB using Me First fails like with Assist!
 
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Perish Song has a huge issue w/ Espeon, and to an extent opposing Mega-Absol, so I thought Mold Breaker+Roar would help dealing with it.
The main mon that uses this is Haxorous+Fraxute. They are the fastest Taunt+Mold Breaker+Roar users (outside of M-Gyardados, which can’t kill itself without song so it’s bad)
rawr (Haxoros/Fraxure) @ Toxic Orb/Mental Herb
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Filler
- Substitute
- Roar
- Taunt
Pretty self-explanatory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-749388157
 
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Since Magic Bouncers are so common this meta, what about using Stealth Rocks against them to set them up on your own side and then switch between pokemon with rock weaknesses?

Also, what about Klutz assault vest trick to force a mon to attack?
 
Assault Vest is banned.

Semako said:
Since Magic Bouncers are so common this meta, what about using Stealth Rocks against them to set them up on your own side and then switch between pokemon with rock weaknesses?

Also, what about Klutz assault vest trick to force a mon to attack?
Click to expand...

Self Rock (he he he) is a possible team archetype...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-3907

...but it has a lot of problems to the point where it is barely usable.

The biggest issue is that no monster or combination of has (afaik) the attributes to be able to semi-reliably set up hazards on its own side. That is to say, imo something would need to have 1. Magic Bounce, 2. Skill Swap (or possibly a fast Entrainment), 3. a trapping move and 4. a hazard all available at once.

Mega Sableye is extremely close, only lacking Skill Swap; with it, it would become the second viable Mega in the meta imo. Mega Diancie also comes close, only lacking a trapping move; I've seen some people try to use it, but it's incredibly unlikely to work except on very new players, and probably has trouble killing itself even if it gets rocks up. Mega Absol has Mean Look to trap, but no entraining move.

IF the opponent has Mega-Absol or Espeon, you can fairly reliably get rocks up by trapping them with Dugtrio, however, while both are commonly used, it's far from guaranteed you will see either in any given match. Basing your main wincon on the opponent having one specific monster (except maybe if it was Smeargle) is obviously really shaky. That said, if you're specifically counter-teaming Mega-Absol, it could work.

The best general usage setup you can create at the moment is seemingly using scarfed Skill Swap Xatu or Espeon in conjunction with Dugtrio; hope they stay in after the SS, bring in Dugtrio, and set rocks if they seem securely trapped (fast Baton Pass is another problem). This might work some of the time, but is likely to be too obvious against anyone who understands Dugtrio's use, let alone alongside a bunch of otherwise unviable 4x rock-weak Pokemon in team preview. Scarf BTW allows your Magic Bouncer to lure an opposing Dugtrio into setting rocks while you abnormally outspeed with Skill Swap to let them through. Xatu benefits from a SR weakness, probably better support moves for this kind of team (Thunder Wave for opponent shudown and especially Defog for fixing mistakes) and an emergency Arena Trap immunity, while Espeon can bait opposing Dugtrio more easily and is less conspicuous.

The other problem is that most good teams will have an emergency defogger, and even if you manage to trick them into letting you set up once, it surely isn't going to work twice in the same match.

However, having Stealth Rocks as an unpredictable niche move that you could potentially throw up against a predictable Magic Coat/Bounce for some extra chip damage might be worthwhile on some monsters. For example, Swampert could have SR and throw it out when you expect the opponent to Magic Coat against Roar.
 
I think I have some weird obsession with responding to as many people as I can on this thread, so this isn't going to be a short post...oh boy...

We Wuz Nidokangz said:
Espeon's disruption movepool is shallow, but its fast Trick is nice. Having Trick at the ready, even if Espeon is holding an item that you want, makes it an even safer switch-in, since it could potentially absorb, say, Leppa Berry, before dumping it on something else later on. If you're desperate for another disruptive move, I guess Sing is worth considering, since even though it's unreliable and generally inferior to paralysis in this meta, it has the potential to delay Toxic Orb activation even on a monster that comes in subbed, and possibly creating a chance to permanently remove it later in the match.

If you want a more aggressive Magic Bounce user, Xatu's access to Thunder Wave and Pain Split make it worth considering (it also can't be hazard-trapped by Dugtrio).

---

It seems like Perishpass Absol is often running Hail in its last moveslot, which imo is at best a wasted use of a slot and more often counter-productive, so I'd like to look at other options and recommend a standard set. The problem with Hail is that it's incredibly unlikely to be more efficient at killing Absol than Perish Song; you need to take a very specific amount of damage from opponents' attacks, which you don't have good control over, and it you time it slightly wrong, Absol dies early and might cripple a teammate by removing its only deathcon. Similarly, Hail doesn't help most of the rest of the team much, since they most likely are expecting to die from Perish Song. However, Hail does help the opponent at least as much as you, and probably more if they are running an HO team killing itself through HP damage.

This is what I recommend instead:-

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave/Substitute/Magic Coat/Role Play/Me First

Unlike almost everything else in SC, we're investing in defence, because Absol dying to Struggle/Mind Blown chip damage (or even attracting an assassination attempt from Dugtrio) usually doesn't benefit you, and could cripple its teammates. A Timid nature reduces Attack to limit damage the opponent might receive from struggle.

For the moves, Perish Song + Baton Pass is obvious and mandatory in order to kill yourself and everyone you've ever loved.

Taunt is practically essential, firstly to shut down all kinds of BS that the opponent might be trying to set up, and secondly because if you can force them to Struggle or use another attacking move, you can phaze them out by Baton Passing into a teammate equipped with a Red Card, allowing you to use Pokemon that don't learn phazing moves, or that can spend their perishing turns on utility like setting Sticky Web or healing opponents. Be careful of setting Taunts against opponents that may be able to Magic Coat them back; don't be afraid to check with /learn if you aren't sure.

The fourth slot can be used for additional support or checking counters. Thunder Wave is by far the most generally useful option; since Absol spends so many turns active preparing Perish Song, it has a great chance to be ready to paralyse a fresh opponent before it can activate a Toxic Orb, potentially preventing it from killing itself or giving you free turns. Substitute is much less useful on Absol than typical SC mons for previously explained reasons, but could be used sparingly to defend against added effect attacking moves that can disrupt it through Magic Bounce, such as Nuzzle and Dragon Tail. Magic Coat seems redundant with Magic Bounce, but is the only way for Absol to shut down Hawlucha with its faster Mold Breaker Taunt. Role Play could be used on a predicted Dugtrio switch-in, to prevent it from being able to set up Stealth Rocks by abusing Magic Bounce. Me First (suggested by Greenheroes) is a more aggressive alternative to Sub that enables Absol to phaze most opposing Dragon Tail/Storm Throw users first, although it can't defend against Nuzzle. Me First may also allow Absol to beat a healthy Smeargle one-on-one by outspeeding and copying Mind Blown.
Click to expand...
For the first portion of your post, Espeon does have a shallow movepool, but it doesn't need a robust movepool to do its job very well; all it needs is Substitute and Baton Pass. I use Heal Bell, since I use only 1 Toxic Orb Pokemon at most nowadays, and Snore, in case the opponent uses a Moldy Taunt. As for using Xatu as a more aggressive Magic Bouncer, you miss the whole point of using Espeon, because you use Espeon not for aggression, but for a Pseudo-Taunt immune SubPasser, of which it is the best at this job.

Now for the second half, you just illustrated an issue with Mega Absol that I somehow completely missed: it has horrible 4mss; It wants to run Thunder Wave to slow down the opponent's attempts to kill it, but then it can't defend itself against Mold Breakers and/or phazers. It would like to have Role Play to survive Dugtrio, but then it can't have the rest of it's moveset. In all seriousness, don't use Mega Absol, its not that great, and easily played around.

Before I move on, I just want to bring light to one of the greatest lines I have ever seen on Smogon:
We Wuz Nidokangz said:
For the moves, Perish Song + Baton Pass is obvious and mandatory in order to kill yourself and everyone you've ever loved.
Click to expand...
'Nuff said.

Insert Old Meme said:
Perish Song has a huge issue w/ Espeon, and to an extent opposing Mega-Absol, so I thought Mold Breaker+Roar would help dealing with it.
The main mon that uses this is Haxorous+Fraxute. They are the fastest Taunt+Mold Breaker+Roar users (outside of M-Gyardados, which can’t kill itself without song so it’s bad)
rawr (Haxoros/Fraxure) @ Toxic Orb/Mental Herb
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Filler
- Substitute
- Roar
- Taunt
Pretty self-explanatory.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-749388157
Click to expand...
Beaten by faster Taunts if Mental Herb, beaten by Magic Coat regardless. I have also used it on a generic team to beat Mega Absol teams, its generally not that great, I'd personally prefer Hawlucha, which is very consistent at dealing with Macis Bouncers. In general, my advice is simple: don't use Mega Absol teams, they can be taken advantage of with a Pokemon or two.

Semako said:
Since Magic Bouncers are so common this meta, what about using Stealth Rocks against them to set them up on your own side and then switch between pokemon with rock weaknesses?

Also, what about Klutz assault vest trick to force a mon to attack?
Click to expand...
As We Wuz Nidokangz stated, Assault Vest is banned. Magic Bouncers are common, and although I wouldn't say this near the beginning, that could work, since Defog isn't that common anymore (it used to be common when Webs were common, and Ribombee fell a little bit out of favor). Honestly, its not really that interesting to me, but run it if you like. I will warn you, the most consistent Rock Setter, Dugtrio, is pretty useless outside of its matchup with Mega Absol and Espeon, just to warn you. I would say listen to me, but We Wuz Nidokangz made a more in depth analysis as to why its not that great, so if you haven't read his post yet, read it now.
 
So I'm sure some of you are wondering how Salazzle appeared so suddenly in the Suicide Cup VR. Quite frankly, none of us really considered Snatch to be as menacing as Taunt, but it is. As Snatch "snatches" Belly Drum and Substitute, it is a very useful move in Suicide Cup. There are numerous users ranging from Mewtwo, Gothitelle, Salazzle and even Gulpin! The main issue with Snatch is that it is susceptible to Taunt. Of course, all of you know Salazzle is immune to Taunt, courtesy of Oblivious. This means that when Salazzle has its Substitute intact, it is capable of using Snatch with little counterplay available (there really isn't much you can do, especially when the Salazzle has a teammate that counters Smeargle).

I built a team with Salazzle. It's worked very well for me, so I thought it would be a good idea to share it with the community!

Salazzle @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Encore
- Snatch

Ditto @ Black Sludge
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Transform

Smeargle @ Black Sludge
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Mind Blown
- Defog
- Floral Healing

Gothitelle @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Heal Pulse

Accelgor @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 1 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Encore
- Baton Pass
- Sandstorm

Slowpoke @ Black Sludge
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Heal Pulse
- Hail

Overall, this team is quite safe, with two Pokemon immune to Taunt, and one Pokemon immune to Trick and Knock Off. Normally, you'd want to lead with either Ditto or Accelgor; Accelgor allows you to safely scout for moves with Ditto as Accelgor provides a safe switch against opponents with Trick. However, it's important to discern when and how Ditto will be used. If the opponent's team is overrun with Trick and such, use Ditto against an opposer like Sableye or Smeargle. Against Mega Absol, you'd definitely want to use Ditto against it as much as possible. Overall, I suppose you could say the team is fairly self-explanatory. I gave Smeargle Defog because Sticky Web is very annoying. It's not something you'd want to lose to, especially when you're lacking an Espeon or a Sableye. MY VISION IS FOR EVERYONE TO USE SALAZZLE AND ANNOY NOC Unlucky 13.
 
Okay, the PSong crash should be fixed.
Also, didnt anyone notice that the validator was allowing less than 6 mons? hmmmm
Here be the codez
Code: 
	{
		name: "[Gen 7] Suicide Cup",
		desc: [
			"The first side to lose of their Pokémon wins.",
		],

		mod: 'suicidecup',
		ruleset: ['[Gen 7] Anything Goes', 'Sleep Clause Mod', 'Species Clause', 'Nickname Clause', 'Moody Clause', 'Evasion Moves Clause'],
		banlist: ['Assault Vest', 'Explosion', 'Final Gambit', 'Healing Wish', 'Lunar Dance', 'Magic Room', 'Memento', 'Self Destruct', 'Shedinja', 'Misty Terrain', 'Misty Surge', 'Infiltrator'],
		onValidateSet: function (set) {
			if(set.level !== 100) return [`All Pokemon should be Level 100. (${set.name || set.species} is Level ${set.level})`];
		},
		onValidateTeam: function (team) {
			if (team.length !== 6) return ['Your team cannot have less than 6 Pokemon.'];
		},
	},
Code: 
'use strict';
 exports.BattleScripts = {
	tiebreak: function () {
		this.inputLog.push(`>tiebreak`);
		this.add('message', "Time's up! Going to tiebreaker...");
		const notFainted = this.sides.map(side => (
			side.pokemon.filter(pokemon => !pokemon.fainted).length
		));
		this.add('-message', this.sides.map((side, i) => (
			`${side.name}: ${notFainted[i]} Pokemon left`
		)).join('; '));
		const maxNotFainted = Math.max(...notFainted);
		let tiedSides = this.sides.filter((side, i) => notFainted[i] === maxNotFainted);
		if (tiedSides.length <= 1) {
			return this.win(tiedSides[1]);
		}

		const hpPercentage = tiedSides.map(side => (
			side.pokemon.map(pokemon => pokemon.hp / pokemon.maxhp).reduce((a, b) => a + b) * 100 / 6
		));
		this.add('-message', tiedSides.map((side, i) => (
			`${side.name}: ${Math.round(hpPercentage[i])}% total HP left`
		)).join('; '));
		const maxPercentage = Math.max(...hpPercentage);
		tiedSides = tiedSides.filter((side, i) => hpPercentage[i] === maxPercentage);
		if (tiedSides.length <= 1) {
			return this.win(tiedSides[1]);
		}

		const hpTotal = tiedSides.map(side => (
			side.pokemon.map(pokemon => pokemon.hp).reduce((a, b) => a + b)
		));
		this.add('-message', tiedSides.map((side, i) => (
			`${side.name}: ${Math.round(hpTotal[i])} total HP left`
		)).join('; '));
		const maxTotal = Math.max(...hpTotal);
		tiedSides = tiedSides.filter((side, i) => hpTotal[i] === maxTotal);
		if (tiedSides.length <= 1) {
			return this.win(tiedSides[1]);
		}
		this.tie();
	},

	/**
	 * @param {boolean} [lastFirst]
	 */
	faintMessages: function (lastFirst = false) {
		if (this.ended) return;
		if (!this.faintQueue.length) return false;
		if (lastFirst) {
			this.faintQueue.unshift(this.faintQueue[this.faintQueue.length - 1]);
			this.faintQueue.pop();
		}
		let faintData;
		while (this.faintQueue.length) {
			faintData = this.faintQueue[0];
			this.faintQueue.shift();
			if (!faintData.target.fainted) {
				this.runEvent('BeforeFaint', faintData.target, faintData.source, faintData.effect);
				this.add('faint', faintData.target);
				faintData.target.side.pokemonLeft--;
				this.runEvent('Faint', faintData.target, faintData.source, faintData.effect);
				this.singleEvent('End', this.getAbility(faintData.target.ability), faintData.target.abilityData, faintData.target);
				faintData.target.clearVolatile(false);
				faintData.target.fainted = true;
				faintData.target.isActive = false;
				faintData.target.isStarted = false;
				faintData.target.side.faintedThisTurn = true;
			}
		}

		if (this.gen <= 1) {
			// in gen 1, fainting skips the rest of the turn
			// residuals don't exist in gen 1
			this.queue = [];
		} else if (this.gen <= 3 && this.gameType === 'singles') {
			// in gen 3 or earlier, fainting in singles skips to residuals
			for (const side of this.sides) {
				for (const pokemon of side.active) {
					if (this.gen <= 2) {
						// in gen 2, fainting skips moves only
						this.cancelMove(pokemon);
					} else {
						// in gen 3, fainting skips all moves and switches
						this.cancelAction(pokemon);
					}
				}
			}
		}

		if (!this.p1.pokemonLeft && !this.p2.pokemonLeft) {
			this.win(faintData ? faintData.target.side.foe : null);
			return true;
		}
		if (!this.p1.pokemonLeft) {
			this.win(this.p1);
			return true;
		}
		if (!this.p2.pokemonLeft) {
			this.win(this.p2);
			return true;
		}
		return false;
	},
};
Instead of changing every source to target/p1 to p2 you could simply replace side with side.foe
 
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I just played a bunch of games with We Wuz Kidokangz and had a lot of fun a got a good understanding of the meta rn, saying that I’d like to share some things.
Mega-Absol teams are still pretty good but you will have to watch out for Taunt mons and Magic Bounce mons a lot more as Espeon and Aerodactyl have become much more common. Other than that they still work pretty much the same.
Trick/Switcheroo is something that should probably be put on a watchlist. The main issues are, mons like Liepard and Whimsicott can reliably get off Switcheroo, losing your self-harm item doesn’t change on switch (like Magic Guard), and the biggest one is that the game is decided the second a player loses their item (sometimes based on PP left or moves). Here are some replays showing examples, I may add more if I get any.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4890
When both my Mew and Nido’s Delcatty get lefties it’s my win because Delcatty has Covet and I have Taunt, Nido’s best chance was hoping I keep getting paralyzed over and over.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4903
As soon as Dugtrio loses its Black Sludge it’s game as it doesn’t have another way of dying (unless it gets attacked) and the other team still has ways of killing of its mons so it’s game.
I don’t think it should be banned yet and I think it should be tested more but I’d like to put it on a watchlist.
Unrelated to anything said in this post, just wanted to drop some replays.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4898
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-749388157
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-748424623
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-748421378
 
Usually, I try to respond to every post, but I'll leave the coding stuff to you guys (I may have a basic grasp of coding, but likely not as much as you guys have). You guys seem to have it covered, so I feel justified there. :-)

Insert Old Meme said:
I just played a bunch of games with We Wuz Kidokangz and had a lot of fun a got a good understanding of the meta rn, saying that I’d like to share some things.
Mega-Absol teams are still pretty good but you will have to watch out for Taunt mons and Magic Bounce mons a lot more as Espeon and Aerodactyl have become much more common. Other than that they still work pretty much the same.
Trick/Switcheroo is something that should probably be put on a watchlist. The main issues are, mons like Liepard and Whimsicott can reliably get off Switcheroo, losing your self-harm item doesn’t change on switch (like Magic Guard), and the biggest one is that the game is decided the second a player loses their item (sometimes based on PP left or moves). Here are some replays showing examples, I may add more if I get any.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4890
When both my Mew and Nido’s Delcatty get lefties it’s my win because Delcatty has Covet and I have Taunt, Nido’s best chance was hoping I keep getting paralyzed over and over.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4903
As soon as Dugtrio loses its Black Sludge it’s game as it doesn’t have another way of dying (unless it gets attacked) and the other team still has ways of killing of its mons so it’s game.
I don’t think it should be banned yet and I think it should be tested more but I’d like to put it on a watchlist.
Unrelated to anything said in this post, just wanted to drop some replays.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4898
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-749388157
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-748424623
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-748421378
Click to expand...
I wholeheartedly agree Trick/Switcheroo should be put on the watchlist, its an absolute nightmare to overcome if you aren't prepared. I'm personally leaning towards a ban, but that's just me. Also, lol Mega Absol teams are a breeze to prep for, so I wouldn't say that it's "pretty good." Aerodactyl has gotten less common if anything, since Prankster just appears to be Aerodactyl, but faster. The bigger threat appears to be Ditto, which gains all the bonuses, none of the disadvantages of Mega Absol. Ditto simply takes advantage of Mega Absol teams, and just laughs at them. I don't consider Mega Absol teams to be particularly viable, expecially when the Copy+Paste core of Accelgor+Espeon+Smeargle+Goth+Ditto exists. Honestly, Mega Absol teams can be insanely hard to beat if well built if you are unprepared. The issue is that the teams are rarely well built, and are generally easy to prepare for (the aforementioned Ditto does very well, as does Hawlucha).

I do want to talk a little about Minun; This thing was something I highly underestimated the first time I encountered it; I first fought it when Greenheroes was using it, and I (embarrassingly) lost to the team. Please note, that this is one of my older teams, and I *might* post it on an unforeseen team dump, but it isn't one of my more consistent teams (mostly because of Haxorus being tough to kill without Black Sludge). In any case, this was the match where I found out that Volt Absorb heals through Substitute. This one fact put Minun on the VR. Yes, that fact alone. So, here's the set I used (your's may be different, but this is one that I find the best):

Minun @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Entrainment
- Nuzzle
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Entrainment + Volt Absorb gives Minun a bootleg Heal Pulse that hits through Substitute. Nuzzle has utility outside of this, in preventing Toxic Orb from triggering, plus preventing Pokemon from making a move. Toxic Orb was chosen to override Volt Absorb's healing after a while, while Sub+Pass gives it a niche outside of this unique healing mechanic. Honestly, the main reason Minun has a niche in the metagame is its solid matchup against 3 of the high tier mons; Ditto means you don't even need to use Entrainment, and doesn't override Volt Absorb, Smeargle kills Minun off, Goth also can't trap (unless it get's passed a Substitute). Upon thinking about it, in a 1v1, it also has a decent matchup against Sableye, with Entrainment removing Prankster, and Nuzzle Paralyzing it, but it does have to worry about Trick+Pecha Berry. This is why Minun is on the VR; it has nice matchups against high tiers, and has an interesting healing mechanic that can be tough to play around.
 
I thought I'd make a fun team based on T-Lukke's stellar artwork! (p.s. if you're reading this, you should try it out!)


1527394581758.png

Gothitelle @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Heal Pulse

Gothitelle is an extremely dangerous Pokemon in SC. It can use Taunt and shut down slower Pokemon. Normally, you are going to want to Taunt with another Pokemon before switching to Gothitelle. If the opponent doesn't have a Substitute intact, Gothitelle will be able to use Heal Pulse unimpeded, courtesy of Taunt. Magic Coat is mainly there for Sableye, as this team is quite weak to it.

1527392165813.png

Abra @ Black Sludge
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Knock Off
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Snatch

I really love T-Lukke's design of Abra! It's got the whole "I'm so insane!" vibe going for it! Abra has terrible Atk,, so it makes for an excellent user of Knock Off. The rest are just what you'd expect. I decided to use Inner Focus instead of Magic Guard because I figured this team needed some more "suicidal power" than disruptors.
1527386436206.png

Smeargle @ Black Sludge
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Defog
- Mind Blown
- Floral Healing
- Taunt

There is almost no reason to not use Smeargle. It is the safest, the most versatile and it can faint in two turns. It is simply the best Pokemon in Suicide Cup. The set, is of course, the standard support Smeargle set. I like this set the most.
1527386456629.png

Jumpluff @ Black Sludge
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Encore
- Substitute
- Grassy Terrain
- Stun Spore


Jumpluff doesn't exactly suit this team, but it's part of the artwork, so you better just shut up and accept it! It's really fast and has access to Encore, which can sometimes be very effective if used at the right moment. Grassy Terrain is a double-edged blade, so you should always tread lightly before using it. Stun Spore and Substitute are fairly self-explanatory, as it doesn't exactly have the best movepool.


1527394355217.png

Accelgor @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Encore
- Baton Pass
- Sandstorm

Accelgor is this team's main Smeargle-switch-in and lead. It can support the team with Sandstorm (which can sort of reverse the effects of Grassy Terrain.) Sub-pass is the crux of this set, and is vital for this team. Encore is always helpful, especially in last-mon situations.

Hawlucha @ Black Sludge
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Baton Pass


I needed to come up with a final mon that addresses Mega Absol and pairs up well with Jumpluff at the same time. If Grassy Surge is in effect, only Hawlucha Smeargle and Jumpluff itself can take full advantage of the terrain. As you all know, Hawlucha can outpace Mega Absol, making it an excellent switch-in. If Mega Absol uses Perish Song, Taunt puts Mega Absol in a very awkward spot, as most teams with Mega Absol are very dependent on Perish Song. Sometimes, when Mega Absol is taunted, you can switch to Gothitelle if you want to trap and KO Mega Absol.


I know it's not exactly the best team, but it's decent enough to warrant some usage! I feel that it truly captures the spirit of SC, with each Pokemon from the banner (barring Hawlucha) represented, Which is why I want to ask everyone:

Which Pokemon from the banner do you like the most? Personally, I'm a huge fan of Abra! T-Lukke did such an amazing job designing it!
 
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Thank-you Spandan for fixing the Perish glitch.

If forcedLevel automatically sets the Pokemon level to 100, it seems to me that the current approach of throwing a validator error is best because it lets players understand what has happened when their FEAR-style strat or whatever is not working, and that the level limit is an intentional design restriction.

---

Regarding the aliased Mind Blown no recoil issue...

NOC Unlucky 13 said:
So...We read this and decided to test some of its properties (totally scientifically, of course), and found some things that are pretty interesting. For instance, we thought that, maybe, the recoil wouldn't occur when it hits a Flash Fire Pokemon. Well....we tested this....

It Did Not Go Well

As you can see, it does not. However, we tested a little bit later a little....peculiarity...involving this team. As it turns out...Assist calling Mind Blown does NOT cause recoil. This naturally baffled us, so yeah...if this does turn out to be a glitch, Assist might need to be dealt with. If not, then oh well, no harm done.

Here's the second replay, if you wish to confirm it with your own eyes.

So yeah, this is very interesting to say the least. I am shocked by assist there, but yeah...I felt like I should post this, since I helped cause this satanic idea to ever occur.
Click to expand...

So it looks like this is PROBABLY a bug, or at least a general property of aliased use of Mind Blown, not a specific oddity of Assist. Greenheroes and I tested when Me First can cause self damage when copying Mind Blown, and it also can't.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4882

Presumably this also occurs when MB is copied by Copycat(?) However, Transform making MB into a native move IIRC is ok (recoil works). Mimic would also be interesting to try; presumably that will allow recoil. If anyone can test this on Ultra Sun/Moon cart, it would be extremely helpful.

NOC Unlucky 13 said:
Please, Assist teams are toxic, okay? I don't want to fight them, do you?
Click to expand...

Mwaha....MWAHAHAHA...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-5056

Adrian Marin said:
Which Pokemon from the banner do you like the most?
Click to expand...

Jumpluff for dat sweet illicit Infiltrator Stun Spore...
 
I said that before, but it makes me really happy that you liked that banner so much Adrian Marin, hahahah~ And now even more surprised that it was actually possible to make a team out of it. That said, the idea to draw these 5 was yours, so I'm innocent heeeereeee

Good luck to whoever plays with the banner team xD

Edit: Also, sorryyyyyy, forgot to link the banner in my art thread to this one. Fixed now.
 
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I was thinking about a way to prevent trick besides using megas and accelgor when I thought of z moves. You wont want to use attacking z moves, however status z moves have the effect of being immune to taunt/encore. Now because z moves prevent blacksludge/toxic orb from being used you have to use it on pokemon that can kill themselves without items. So I thought of smeargle and came up with this set.

Smeargle @ Normalium Z
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Magic Coat
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Mind Blown

With normalium z smeargle is capable of using perish song or batonpass when taunted in addition to being immune to trick/switcheroo. I am sure that other pokemon can use z moves effectively, but some moves like belly drum and curse will heal you if you use the z version so be careful.
 
Alright, its been way too long since I have posted on the thread, so, its high time that I do so. Honestly, not much has changed, in terms of me experimenting with things, but we did discover a little exploit that puts Magic Guard in such a powerful position that we decided to Quickban it. Basically, Alakazam can kill 5 Pokemon, then use Skill Swap Magic Guard onto it to prevent it from dying (outside of struggle, which can be prevented from killing with Heal Pulse/Floral Healing). This strategy is tough to prevent unless you see it coming, in which case, its a matter of skill. Such a strategy, however, just seems unhealthy in any way you look at it, so it was quickbanned. Thanks Klang for making an otherwise nice ability banworthy. >_>

Another thing I kinda want to say is that I made a promise with myself that if Suicide Cup wins OMotM (which it looks like it will right now) I will stream myself climbing the ladder, likely going to post when I start these streams. Do what you will with this information, that's just a minor promise I made with myself (one that I'm prepping for).

I guess since I don't I have much to talk about, I'm gonna respond to some of what you guys have said.

We Wuz Nidokangz said:
Thank-you Spandan for fixing the Perish glitch.

If forcedLevel automatically sets the Pokemon level to 100, it seems to me that the current approach of throwing a validator error is best because it lets players understand what has happened when their FEAR-style strat or whatever is not working, and that the level limit is an intentional design restriction.

---

Regarding the aliased Mind Blown no recoil issue...



So it looks like this is PROBABLY a bug, or at least a general property of aliased use of Mind Blown, not a specific oddity of Assist. Greenheroes and I tested when Me First can cause self damage when copying Mind Blown, and it also can't.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-4882

Presumably this also occurs when MB is copied by Copycat(?) However, Transform making MB into a native move IIRC is ok (recoil works). Mimic would also be interesting to try; presumably that will allow recoil. If anyone can test this on Ultra Sun/Moon cart, it would be extremely helpful.



Mwaha....MWAHAHAHA...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7suicidecup-5056



Jumpluff for dat sweet illicit Infiltrator Stun Spore...
Click to expand...
I like this post, very well thought out speculation. Just pointing this out for the quality.

Jrsmash9 said:
I was thinking about a way to prevent trick besides using megas and accelgor when I thought of z moves. You wont want to use attacking z moves, however status z moves have the effect of being immune to taunt/encore. Now because z moves prevent blacksludge/toxic orb from being used you have to use it on pokemon that can kill themselves without items. So I thought of smeargle and came up with this set.

Smeargle @ Normalium Z
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Magic Coat
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Mind Blown

With normalium z smeargle is capable of using perish song or batonpass when taunted in addition to being immune to trick/switcheroo. I am sure that other pokemon can use z moves effectively, but some moves like belly drum and curse will heal you if you use the z version so be careful.
Click to expand...
All my criticisms were covered in this post. The only thing I can think of is that the whole point of Trick is to prevent Pokemon from commiting seppuku, and Z-Crystals simply ignore this point. That being said, I think we should talk a bit more about Z-moves, this could be interesting to discuss.
 
As NOC Unlucky 13 said, Magic Guard is now banned.

The strategy behind KOing 5 Pokemon, only to Skill Swap Magic Guard, is extremely unhealthy. Counterplay to this strategy is limited and difficult. You can use Perish Song, for example, but with the aid of Pursuit trappers, people can still pick and KO the desired threat. It's in our best interest to amplify creativity. We will not bury creativity, and we will not forsake the foundations that hold this metagame together.

I'd like to blame thank Klang for finding this degrading strategy!
 
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I had looked at Z-Crystals at one point, but totally dismissed them because not only is the opportunity cost of forgoing a damaging item too high for most SC mons, almost all of the added effects are at best underwhelming, or, in the majority of cases, harmful. However, I didn't realise that Z-Moves can be used under Taunt/Encore; that may make them viable choices on some mons that normally run Mental Herb. Although MH has the advantage of guaranteeing your first move goes off regardless of whether the opponent outspeeds with Taunt, Z-Status presumably can be selected at any point during Taunt status (for example, reliably allowing you to set up Trick Room on the final turn of Perish, even if you are Taunted), and can have a deceptive quality in that the opponent will believe that you are unable to do anything but struggle even if you have the hidden option of using a Z-Status move. This might make a Z-Crystal a usable item on Murkrow:-

Murkrow @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spe, 252 SpA
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Whirlwind
- Taunt
- Snore / Substitute

* Edit: Apparently one attack move is needed to execute a Z-status move when Taunted. I guess turning Snore into Breakneck Blitz could also be useful to break a sub or attack Absol in some niche situations.

Come in on an opponent that is likely to have Magic Coat and Taunt, but not a phazing move (say, Gothitelle). Setup Prankster Perish on turn 1, and expect to get Taunted or see Magic Coat. If you are still able to move, throw out Taunt on turn 2, and either Taunt the opponent or "accidentally" Taunt yourself off their Magic Coat. If they are Taunted, you can try to phaze like normal, but if you are Taunted, most likely the opponent will let down their guard with Magic Coat - as they will believe you are unable phaze them, they will probably spend the time trying to use Baton Pass, Sub or some kind of setup move like Tailwind instead. After maybe struggling one more turn to test for MC and run down the Perish timer, you can unleash a secret Z-Whirlwind to phaze them out and steal the 1-for-0 KO!
 
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Are there any reasons why the OHKO, evasion, baton pass and Moody clauses are still needed in suicide cup? I guess I'm just nitpicking here but I feel like repealing the baton pass clause especially would free up some options.
 
Klang said:
Are there any reasons why the OHKO, evasion, baton pass and Moody clauses are still needed in suicide cup? I guess I'm just nitpicking here but I feel like repealing the baton pass clause especially would free up some options.
Click to expand...
Last I checked, they are unbanned, just not in the OP. I know Baton Pass is unbanned, anyway. In fact, I seem to remember there not being a sleep clause. Just saying...
 
NOC Unlucky 13 said:
Alright, its been way too long since I have posted on the thread, so, its high time that I do so. Honestly, not much has changed, in terms of me experimenting with things, but we did discover a little exploit that puts Magic Guard in such a powerful position that we decided to Quickban it. Basically, Alakazam can kill 5 Pokemon, then use Skill Swap Magic Guard onto it to prevent it from dying (outside of struggle, which can be prevented from killing with Heal Pulse/Floral Healing). This strategy is tough to prevent unless you see it coming, in which case, its a matter of skill. Such a strategy, however, just seems unhealthy in any way you look at it, so it was quickbanned. Thanks Klang for making an otherwise nice ability banworthy. >_>
Click to expand...
Adrian Marin said:
As NOC Unlucky 13 said, Magic Guard is now banned.

The strategy behind KOing 5 Pokemon, only to Skill Swap Magic Guard, is extremely unhealthy. Counterplay to this strategy is limited and difficult. You can use Perish Song, for example, but with the aid of Pursuit trappers, people can still pick and KO the desired threat. It's in our best interest to amplify creativity. We will not bury creativity, and we will not forsake the foundations that hold this metagame together.

I'd like to blame thank Klang for finding this degrading strategy!
Click to expand...
Seriously? I said that three weeks ago.
chartung17 said:
Here's an unconventional (and untested) strategy that sounds promising:

Deoxys-Attack @ Black Sludge
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Taunt
- Nasty Plot

Alakazam @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Skill Swap
- Protect
- Substitute

[3 filler mons + Smeargle] @ Toxic Orb
Ability: filler
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Heal Pulse/Floral Healing
- Substitute/Scary Face/filler
- Protect/filler

Strategy is simple: Deoxys uses Nasty Plot, then OHKOs five mons. Taunt the last mon, then they can't help killing you. Keep them Taunted for the rest of the game. Alakazam uses Skill Swap, then the only damage your opponent takes is recoil from Struggle. Once you manage to give them Magic Guard, winning is as simple as meeting these three conditions: don't lose a toxic orb before it activates, don't let your opponent use any status moves (unless you're using protect that turn), and don't let your opponent die from Struggle recoil. I recommend giving at least one filler mon some offensive power in case Deoxys gets killed early. Scary Face is there because there aren't many fast Taunt+Heal Pulse users.

I don't know if this strategy is as good as it sounds - pranksters/mons faster than Alakazam have the potential to ruin it, same for Mental Herb, and if your opponent sees this strategy coming and decides to just kill Deoxys turn 1, you're probably not in great shape - but it does sound like fun, and it's about as anti-meta as a strategy can possibly be.
Click to expand...
 
chartung17 said:
Seriously? I said that three weeks ago.
Click to expand...
The strategy worked better when used with Magic Guard as the sweeper, which is not mentioned as such. That means that the strategy you posted is easy to take advantage of, whereas the strategy introduced by Klang is hard to stop unless you know its coming. The strategy you used is just rekt hard by Goth, which does kinda make it a bit worthless. That being said, you did introduce the concept, but it was Klang that demonstrated a way to make it ridiculously unhealthy. Basically, you got the initial idea, but Klang made it good.
 
Yeah, I remember that LOL. I guess just doing the sweep with Alakazam makes it smoother to pull off?

Klang said:
Are there any reasons why the OHKO, evasion, baton pass and Moody clauses are still needed in suicide cup? I guess I'm just nitpicking here but I feel like repealing the baton pass clause especially would free up some options.
Click to expand...

* Baton Pass doesn't seem restricted in any way (you could pass Agility boosts with it if you wanted, I guess).

* OHKO moves are legal.

* Most evasion moves are banned. I think it would have similar uncompetitiveness problems to other metas (racking up evasion boosts then Baton Passing between a Belly Drummer, Curser, etc) and is probably right to be banned. However, you COULD get a small evasion boost from a Z-Detect Smeargle...

* Moody is banned. Even though it wouldn't be as good in murder-based metas as you don't want attack and defense "buffs", it would mainly/only benefit Smeargle, who is already by far the best mon in the meta, and could boost evasion leading to the above problems.

I'm not sure about sleep clause, but paralysis is general superior in SC anyway.
 
NOC Unlucky 13 said:
The strategy worked better when used with Magic Guard as the sweeper, which is not mentioned as such. That means that the strategy you posted is easy to take advantage of, whereas the strategy introduced by Klang is hard to stop unless you know its coming. The strategy you used is just rekt hard by Goth, which does kinda make it a bit worthless. That being said, you did introduce the concept, but it was Klang that demonstrated a way to make it ridiculously unhealthy. Basically, you got the initial idea, but Klang made it good.
Click to expand...
And Klang's strategy can be taken advantage of by simply killing Alakazam, which is why I didn't make Alakazam the sweeper. Klang just repeated a version that I had already discarded as likely ineffective - maybe it is in fact better than the one I posted, but that's beside the point.
 
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