Metagame Suicide Cup

sdrumapapere said:
Unless you have double or more the HP of your opponent, since a lot of strategies use LC pokèmon and/or low base HP with 0 IVs and EVs lol.
Click to expand...
I mean, LC Pokemon are mostly used on newcomer teams, I rarely use mostly LC teams myself (my new team actually has no LC Pokemon on it lol), so I don't see what you mean. In any case, what I'm talking about you being at full HP when the opponent switches into a Pokemon with full health, which is something that has happened before. Basically, I'm just trying to say that it isn't the hardest thing to take advantage of Pain Split.
 
Painsplit is a good move and often times it can be better then healpulse. There is no risk when you use painsplit at full hp and are something like jelicent. The problem is that its distribution is rather limited. I would also like to say that phazing is very good, in stopping toxic damage from racking up and perishsong. I would recommend a roar/whirlwind user on every team.
 
So I've been playing a couple of games, and I gotta say, I personally feel that Gothitelle is really underwhelming, and is in sore need of a drop.

Let's get the obvious out of the way: Fast Substitute users are EVERYWHERE right now, and all of them completely screw Gothitelle over. From Accelgor, to Espeon, to Salazzle, any of these mons completely screw over Gothitelle's heal pulse spam, to where Goth's only option is to play dice with Magic Coat (which can be circumvented via Struggle or proper prediction btw)

"But that's not what Gothitelle does!" You may say. "It's best against slower opponents!". And yeah, you have a fair point. But again, how many slow mons do you see in the meta right now? Just by looking through the A ranks on the viability rankings, the only mons that Goth outspeeds are Slowking/poke, Lickis, Walrein/Sealeo, Sunkern. Alolawak doesn't count since it can switch out by virtue of its Ghost typing. That's 4/31 mons in the A ranks, or 13% of the meta. Now, does that sound like S rank material to you?

Look, I'm still new and bad, so maybe I'm missing something here. But when I compare Goth to Smeargle, I think to myself "Yeah, no." Whatever meta Goth got S rank in, that meta is dead, and its ranking should be dropped to reflect this.

In other news, here's a fun little mon I discovered.

comfey.gif

Comfey @ Black Sludge
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Floral Healing
- Substitute
- Tailwind
- Taunt

Not much else to say other than priority Heal Pulse equivalent being a damn cool niche. Also, Taunt and Tailwind are really, really nice support. can we swap this thing's ranking with goth pls
 
Comfey not in viability yet? This is beast in Perishpass teams:-

Comfey @ Red Card / Terrain Extender
Ability: Triage
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Grassy Terrain
- Floral Healing
- Taunt
- Magic Coat

With fast Taunt and Magic Coat, it is very safe against most phazers. Priority Floral Healing is great (it's actually superior to Heal Pulse, as setting Grassy Terrain to boost it is much easier than getting the Mega Launcher/Heal Pulse combo on the terribad Klawitzer; Floral Healing should be the preferred move on Smeargle as well). However, priority Grassy Terrain is the real MVP, forcing passive healing on even mons behind a sub. It can come in mid-game without perish and disrupt an almost dead opponent too.

I agree Goth needs to be separated from Smeragle in VR; even if it's only the next tier apart, Smeag is just so unpredictable and uniquely superior in this meta.
 
Yung Dramps said:
So I've been playing a couple of games, and I gotta say, I personally feel that Gothitelle is really underwhelming, and is in sore need of a drop.

Let's get the obvious out of the way: Fast Substitute users are EVERYWHERE right now, and all of them completely screw Gothitelle over. From Accelgor, to Espeon, to Salazzle, any of these mons completely screw over Gothitelle's heal pulse spam, to where Goth's only option is to play dice with Magic Coat (which can be circumvented via Struggle or proper prediction btw)

"But that's not what Gothitelle does!" You may say. "It's best against slower opponents!". And yeah, you have a fair point. But again, how many slow mons do you see in the meta right now? Just by looking through the A ranks on the viability rankings, the only mons that Goth outspeeds are Slowking/poke, Lickis, Walrein/Sealeo, Sunkern. Alolawak doesn't count since it can switch out by virtue of its Ghost typing. That's 4/31 mons in the A ranks, or 13% of the meta. Now, does that sound like S rank material to you?

Look, I'm still new and bad, so maybe I'm missing something here. But when I compare Goth to Smeargle, I think to myself "Yeah, no." Whatever meta Goth got S rank in, that meta is dead, and its ranking should be dropped to reflect this.

In other news, here's a fun little mon I discovered.

comfey.gif

Comfey @ Black Sludge
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Floral Healing
- Substitute
- Tailwind
- Taunt

Not much else to say other than priority Heal Pulse equivalent being a damn cool niche. Also, Taunt and Tailwind are really, really nice support. can we swap this thing's ranking with goth pls
Click to expand...
You make some valid points here; it doesn't have great matchups against fast Substitute Pokemon. What it does have are Snatch, which completely counters Substitute and Baton Pass, and Taunt, which goes through Substitute. Its may not have the best matchup against fast Substitutes, its easily capable of managing it. Honestly, if you don't like Goth, you can probably manage with Mewtwo, which has basically the same movepool, is faster, but has far worse abilities and is stronger. Lastly, Comfey is just not the greatest, but it does deserve to be ranked, but definitely not S rank like Goth is.
 
NOC Unlucky 13 said:
You make some valid points here; it doesn't have great matchups against fast Substitute Pokemon. What it does have are Snatch, which completely counters Substitute and Baton Pass, and Taunt, which goes through Substitute. Its may not have the best matchup against fast Substitutes, its easily capable of managing it. Honestly, if you don't like Goth, you can probably manage with Mewtwo, which has basically the same movepool, is faster, but has far worse abilities and is stronger. Lastly, Comfey is just not the greatest, but it does deserve to be ranked, but definitely not S rank like Goth is.
Click to expand...

With all things considered, I think Goth should drop to A+. It has some nice qualities, but having to rely on Snatch to beat the meta is kinda iffy since it struggles with 4MSS.

Also, if a D rank/shitmon rank is being considered, I would like to nominate Mega Diancie for said D/Do Not Use rank. I've been seeing this strat on ladder where people bring Diancie with a bunch of mons 4x weak to rocks, with Mega Diancie using Skill Swap + Rocks to get Rocks on their side, then proceeding to switch out constantly ntil all their 4x weak mons die. Sounds like a cool strat, right? Yes, on paper. But the issue is that once you realize this strat is coming, you'll NEVER fall for it again. It is the definition of low ladder trash, whose only purpose is to meme new players.
 
Last edited:
My sample team has been replaced with the team I currently ladder with which I'd say is quite formidable and definitely a big step up from tect toxic orb lickilicky and rimbombee.
IMPORTANT: do not change the hp evs/ ivs of slowking slowbro lickitung or lickilicky
 
Its time for Squidy to be an idiot and needlessly nitpick about the VR! Yayyyy!

Mega Absol A- -> A+? S? I dunno?
I might not be that good at competitive, but how the hell is Megabsol only A-.

In a meta with lots of stuff such as Taunt, Heal Pulse, and such, Magic Bounce can be a pain. Absol also has access to Perish Song and Baton Pass. This can, in the end, turn into a huge problem. Substitute can also be happy: Megabsol might even run some form of recovery like Leftovers to help it stay alive as long as possible to let all its allies perish before it does. The biggest possible issue is the fact Perish Song effects all active pokemon, but this will be fine if you can bring out Mega Absol at a time when the opponents pokemon has high health and you have more dead pokemon then they do. With a little preparation, this could be an almost unstoppable victory,

Mega Diance UR -> ...I'll say B.

This one is...interesting. I once fought a guy who used this mon with Skill Swap, Magic Bounce, and Stealth Rock. Needless to say it was an interesting strategy. This little sort of niche could have potential. Especially along with something like Toxic as well. Biggest issue that first comes to mind? The opponent could just switch out at the end of the day.


Sorry if every word that came out of my mouth just now was stupid.
 
What happens if a battle ends with no pokemon left, for instance a pokemon being KOed by Mind Blown but then losing fainting because of the lost HP? Currently, the the side using Mind Blown should win, even if the pokemon being attacked faints first. Is that how it should be?
 
Squawkerz said:
What happens if a battle ends with no pokemon left, for instance a pokemon being KOed by Mind Blown but then losing fainting because of the lost HP? Currently, the the side using Mind Blown should win, even if the pokemon being attacked faints first. Is that how it should be?
Click to expand...
The user of Mind Blown still loses HP if the move misses or if the target has Flash Fire, and the user loses if both Pokémon faint in the same turn as the result of using Mind Blown. source
In our case lose means win, to clarify.

On a similar note, is it an intended mechanic for Mind Blown to not deal recoil damage when called upon by another move such as Assist or Copycat? I don't have a copy of USUM so I am unable to test this mechanic in-game, but as of now Showdown does not calculate recoil. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-757212097
 
Hello everyone. I am a new player to this tier, and I threw together a probably shitty trick room team utilizing belly drum + curse to kms and heal pulse + trick/switcheroo and pecha's too heal poison. It's probably a sub-optimal team, Both smeargle and ditto were just "I need high tier pokemon. Enjoy (Probably not) my horribad team. https://pastebin.com/GdJYty8e
 
So with the dominance of Perish Song in this tier, especially PerishPass Mega Absol teams, it feels like Throat Chop might be a semi-viable niche move. Its obviously not amazing because you need to hit the Perish Song user with it before they use the move. That said, Deoxys-Speed seems like a good choice to try this because with Throat Chop alongside Skill Swap and Taunt, it can completely shut down an unsuspecting Absol, plus it has the fastest Taunt around, usability outside of this niche, and a lot of helpful extra utility moves.

Deoxys-Speed @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Throat Chop
- Skill Swap
- Taunt
- Substitute / Magic Coat / Snatch / Protect / Thunder Wave / Psycho Shift / Whatever you want

On a separate note Psycho Shift seems like an interesting way for Toxic Orb mons to deal with paralysis
 
Tøp Tier said:
So with the dominance of Perish Song in this tier, especially PerishPass Mega Absol teams, it feels like Throat Chop might be a semi-viable niche move. Its obviously not amazing because you need to hit the Perish Song user with it before they use the move. That said, Deoxys-Speed seems like a good choice to try this because with Throat Chop alongside Skill Swap and Taunt, it can completely shut down an unsuspecting Absol, plus it has the fastest Taunt around, usability outside of this niche, and a lot of helpful extra utility moves.

Deoxys-Speed @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Throat Chop
- Skill Swap
- Taunt
- Substitute / Magic Coat / Snatch / Protect / Thunder Wave / Psycho Shift / Whatever you want

On a separate note Psycho Shift seems like an interesting way for Toxic Orb mons to deal with paralysis
Click to expand...

I personally prefer the following set, even though it is a one time use, to
A) Pay homage to greatest mon, and
B) Not use an attacking move. A lot of mons run -def to break 4 status move users, once they are taunted.

Mr. Mime @ Black Sludge
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Skill Swap
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
 
SadisticMystic said:
Sleep Talk and Assist definitely still cause recoil in game when they call Mind Blown.
Click to expand...

Thank-you. Sleep Talk most likely works properly in Showdown as well I would guess(?) but it's good to get confirmation on Assist. ...I say good, but unfortunately this means that the current (imo good) balance of MB in the meta seems to be propped up by a bug that most likely will and "should" be fixed :(

If the coding for this is changed, either MB or Assist will probably end up being banned, likely the latter to preserve current meta balance, whch is a shame because Assist is a semi-viable and certainly...interesting archetype (to paraphrase NOC, "This team is very annoying. Not good, just annoying"). Nuzzle is probably the most (only?) worthwhile move to spam though Assist, though I've tried things like Spore, healing moves and some mixed sets (which are too unreliable in the end to be worth the severe team and moveset limitations of running a mono-Assist team).

Nuzzlecist in action:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756424351

#PrayForAssist
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-757709149
Finally, all four council members in the top 4 (I'm Time Heal Nothing, for those who don't know. I named the alt after the DSBM song of the same name), and I almost lost that fight that got me there. Took me way too damn long. Now, as I keep increasing my ELO, I think I should give a few of my thoughts on the ladder.

I first started using it with Grimer and Ekans for Belch, and although they aren't horrible, they are flat out outclassed by Gulpin in almost every way. As for Belch in general, its foundational flaw is the Goth line; without a Substitute up, they are flat out ruined by Heal Pulse spam. This means that teams featuring Goth can outplay the Belch user until Goth is in with a Substitute-free Belch user. Basically, if you are using Belch, seeing Goth is spooky.

Please ladder, don't use Mega Absol. It's not great, just a pain in the ass to fight. Seriously, I have only seen a few good teams with it, and unless you are a top level player, you likely aren't going to succeed when using it. You just add tedium to an otherwise fun metagame.

Mega Diancie...Why are you used sooo much? Well, at least it counters Goth with a good read. If only it got the ability to trap it first...

I'll probably post my team later on in the month, I really like it, and I don't wanna see people steal it yet. Anyway, onto other posts!
We Wuz Nidokangz said:
Thank-you. Sleep Talk most likely works properly in Showdown as well I would guess(?) but it's good to get confirmation on Assist. ...I say good, but unfortunately this means that the current (imo good) balance of MB in the meta seems to be propped up by a bug that most likely will and "should" be fixed :(

If the coding for this is changed, either MB or Assist will probably end up being banned, likely the latter to preserve current meta balance, whch is a shame because Assist is a semi-viable and certainly...interesting archetype (to paraphrase NOC, "This team is very annoying. Not good, just annoying"). Nuzzle is probably the most (only?) worthwhile move to spam though Assist, though I've tried things like Spore, healing moves and some mixed sets (which are too unreliable in the end to be worth the severe team and moveset limitations of running a mono-Assist team).

Nuzzlecist in action:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-756424351

#PrayForAssist
Click to expand...
Fuck Assist, may it be banned and never see the light of day.

Seriously, if it get's patched, I don't want Mind Blown banned, just Assist. That team you made is simply annoying to fight lmao.

Magikingdra said:
I personally prefer the following set, even though it is a one time use, to
A) Pay homage to greatest mon, and
B) Not use an attacking move. A lot of mons run -def to break 4 status move users, once they are taunted.

Mr. Mime @ Black Sludge
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Skill Swap
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
Click to expand...
As a practicing Mimeist, I wish this set worked in this metagame. I really wish it did. Mr. Mime is just too slow to pull this set off, when the most common Perish Passer is base 115 speed. Just use Dugtrio, Hawlucha, or skill and beat the team that way.

Kongee said:
Hello everyone. I am a new player to this tier, and I threw together a probably shitty trick room team utilizing belly drum + curse to kms and heal pulse + trick/switcheroo and pecha's too heal poison. It's probably a sub-optimal team, Both smeargle and ditto were just "I need high tier pokemon. Enjoy (Probably not) my horribad team. https://pastebin.com/GdJYty8e
Click to expand...
God, I almost missed Pastebin after moving over to Pokepaste. Its been too long since I've seen pastebin used for the mons stuff. The one thing I want to warn you about: Trick Room is sadly not that great. I really tried to make it work early on, but no dice. If you can make it work, than I'd be happy to steal use the team some. Anyway, on to my suggestions for the team:
  • Smeargle: I don't really like using Imprison on any Pokemon but Sableye. In addition, although I know the strategy of MBouncing Purify to essentially Heal Pulse Espeon, I don't like using Purify without Knock Off myself.
  • Ditto: looks good, although I feel troubled by the 1 HP IV. I don't know if it makes a difference, I simply use 0 HP IVs, but I don't know if there is any inherent difference. The only other thing I'd suggest is Sticky Barb, since it allows you to lol at Poison types that think they are Imposter Proof.
  • Slowpoke: fine to me for the most part, barring a few things: I'm not a fan of Toxic Orb outside of a few Pokemon (Mightyena instantly comes to mind), and the set is awfully weak to Trick+Pecha, so I'd slash Trick Room for Hail to keep it Trick safe.
  • Duskull: Trick+Pecha isn't very reliable anymore, since almost every Pokemon has adapted to it, and can kill itself without an item, and you'd be much better off with a filler move (likely Snore, you are awfully Taunt weak so far).
  • Inkay: Taunt over Rain Dance. Now. Also, Pecha without Trick. Change that.
  • Alolan Marowak: Bog standard, no issues there.
Now, for my edited version that should work a bit better: Click Here.
 
It seems that 2HP IVs will enable Ditto to (usually) minimise its death turn count by making its HP divisible by 8. However, sometimes you want to remain after sub to do something before dying, like Baton Pass, so IDK...

I think Trick Room can work, at least somewhat, with a lead/setter like this:-

Mismagius @ Mental Herb / Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Perish Song
- Taunt / Snore
- Magic Coat
- Trick Room

Perish turn 1, defend with Magic Coat until final turn (or penultimate to mix it up) then Trick Room. Usually a 1-for-1 death but you end with the momentum of a full Trick Room set up.
 
I'd like to nominate Cottonee to move from A- to A.

I've really liked this guy a lot recently. It has priority taunt, encore, stun spore, switcheroo, defog, substitute, tailwind, attract (although this is a little too inconsistent in my opinion), and worry seed. And it also has access to one of the weakest knock-offs/struggles.

The reason I'd like to see it move up is that it has a solid matchup against smeargle being 2HKOed by mind blown 95% of the time (100% of the time if running black sludge) as well as being immune to spore and having a faster taunt. Smeargle seems to be moving towards mind blown and away from perish song and so having a strong matchup against that set, in particular, is a very nice niche to have. Cottonee's other niches utilizing prankster and its wide array of support moves haven't fallen out of favor at all either.

I'd also like to nominate Lopunny from UR to B-

On perish pass teams, Lopunny has a pretty weird yet oddly useful niche in klutz + entrainment + encore to incapacitate an opponent. You can even run splash with this set if you are worried about a potential taunt coming your way. This can really slow your opponent down and give you the necessary time to kill the rest of your team.

Outside of perish pass, Lopunny also has switcheroo, attract, baton pass, thunder wave, limber and a solid speed tier of 105 to work with which could all be very useful on the right team.
 
As the meta has developed quickly with the influx of OMotM players, it might be worth adding some more notables nominations and changes for viability...

Jrsmash9 said:
Few suggestions to Viability Rankings:

Decidueye UR -> A- Only user with batonpass and curse that is a ghost
Likcilicky Family -> UR Outclassed by walrein, slowpoke and to an extent charizard
Charizard A -> A+ Bellydrum user that can kill iteself 100% with sunnyday
Smeargle S -> S+ Best mon hands down, compareable to lax in gsc
Espeon A -> S Really good utility mon having magic bounce to prevent taunt/phaze spam
Illumise A -> UR Does not have trick like volbeat and oblivious set is outclassed by espeon
Alakazam Family A -> UR Outclassed now that magic guard is banned
Sunkern A- -> B- Really bad mon now that better smeargle checks have been found
Ribombee A -> A- Rise of usage in Espeon/Absol and defog hurts it
Dugtrio B- -> B A counterteaming mon that has a decent niche
Click to expand...

Agree with most of this, firstly.

Smeargle just needs its own tier; it probably has over 90% usage on good teams, and is able to provide unique and unpredictable support to glue teams together, alongside its domination of the Mind Blown niche.

Espeon should be in whatever the tier below is, probably alongside the other royalty of splashable agile mons like Accelgor, Ditto and Goth family.

Dugtrio maybe should be B+. It's now extremely common to see either Espeon and/or Absol on the opposing team, but moreover, somebody in chat pointed out that by having Espeon use Skill Swap on the turn it dies to Sludge/Toxic, Dugtrio can come in on the free switch and safely set rocks against many opponents. This kind of opportunity of course takes some time to set up at best (and will frequently be disrupted by needing to go to a Trick switch-in, etc) but can still provide a strong late-game boost if you can kill a chain on mons in one turn from switch-in damage.

---

Comfey: B/B+? Priority healing that outspeeds Prankster sub or Grass Terrain for persistent disruption, 100 Speed Taunt and Magic Coat provide sufficient support.

Gardevoir family: B/B+? Trace seems very solid in a meta where so many mons are used for abilities like Magic Bounce and Shadow Tag. Great support movepool from Psychic typing. Seems to outclass Alakazam family alongside Deoxys after Magic Guard ban.

Wimpod B-? Wimp Out, favoured ability of the ill-fated Suicide Cup Hackmons ladder, is exclusive to this mon, activating after Black Sludge damage to provide momentum. Its movepool is mediocre but has the bread-and-butter Taunt+Sub, with a decent 80 speed for its fragility.

Mega Banette: B- Seemingly viable due to Sableye missing Curse from its movepool. Prankster Curse enables quick and reliable death without passive damage, which can be combined with a well-timed Prankster Pain Split to disrupt an incoming opponent, with Mega Stone Trick immunity enabling some nice switch-in opportunities.

Mega Gengar: B-? Not as sure about this, but also seems to be on some good teams abusing a fast Curse/Pain Split alongside Shadow Tag.

Hoopa: B/B-? This thing is so much fun; Magician Hyperspace Hole would likely be ban-worthy if it didn't OHKO half the meta, not to mention chain-flinging Black Sludge. Challenging to use but potentially the most effective item denial monster yet.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top