Survivor General Discussion Thread/Statistics

ajhockeystar

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There is no personal hurt or urgency, don't give yourself that much power to hurt me with your oh so mean words :rolling_eyes: Maybe, just maaaaaaaybe, I'm critiquing the point system because the point system actually has logical flaws to it?

While I certainly don't want to be saying that AJ's work free time work is unhelpful, we also have multiple people before AJ that started collecting the data, and a lot of that past data is going to waste or being deleted. You seem to care about AJ's work, but not about anyone's else work to get that earlier data or that it is deleted and their hard work is gone. AJ's collection of the voting data is certainly helpful and the ongoing presentation of that is certainly being improved, but it seems to be mostly a copy/paste of existing voting data, so it also feels sort of disingenuous to credit AJ for doing this all on his own. There's certainly holes, there's certainly investigation he's doing and he's trying to find out more, and that's good, but the truth is that the majority of that is still just copy/pasting, which is a simple button click. And likewise, with a simple button click, a lot of the other data sheets that others spent time doing original work to compile just went poof when certain sheets got deleted. I mean, I have backup copies of it to a certain point, but not for everything though.

If your entire argument comes down to "who cares about rankings?" then why are you defending AJ's rankings? Your arguments seem to be increasingly ad hominem to support someone and discredit someone else based on the notion of it doesn't even matter. Again, you are trying to bypass the arguments that the only-addition system was flawed and not engage with that content at all.

If you're going to have a ranking tab, and put it in front of the season tabs at that, then people are going to look at it, people are going to make comparisons. We sort of have a responsibility then to make those comparisons actually mean something and to be decipherable and logical to the viewer. I don't know the exact formula AJ is using for the points, I'd guess the minus system is an improvement on the always positive system, but I still don't know the formula or what it is exactly trying to do. I do know what exactly averages tries to do though. Again, maybe the minus system fixes things, maybe if I look in the formula bar the universe makes sense now. But it certainly doesn't make sense to reward a player who got 20th in one season and 5th in the other with all the benefits of one and none of the detriments of the other.

AJ, from your perspective, what exactly are the positives of having your point system? I don't really buy the argument that it encourages people to play again, and I also don't see it as necessary for players to even play again in the first point. *Why* does the point system exist, what problems does it solve over a multitimer average system?
This is going to be the last post about this I am making before I am finished, since I feel like this conversation is losing its productivity.

Once again, the way to be the best in the old system is to play once, do extremely well, and never play again. If someone got 1st in their first game and 2nd in their second game, they would drop under the old system. In my opinion, having a second amazing performance like that should allow the person to move up in the rankings, instead of move down. In fact, this affected you on the ORGs tab - you got 1st in Fast Survivor season 1, which had 8 players. Since that game had fewer players than the survivor game you won, you DROPPED in the rankings. That is what prompted me to change the system in the first place. You dropped because you got 1st place in a game, and that made no sense to me. With this new system (featuring the negatives), people are able to rise by having repeat good performances, even if their prior performance was also good.

For those wondering, this is what the old deleted data that Heal is referring to looked like (this extended further down, however it was just as spotty as this group):
Screen Shot 2020-08-20 at 7.32.33 AM.png


As you can see, it said "NOT UPDATED", and for both columns there were a lot of missing rows. Moreover, there was no indication of which seasons had been included or not, so if I worked off of that data I would have no idea what to add. As a result, I decided to delete it, and I'm going to be doing it from scratch.

Overall, I appreciate that you had concerns and suggestions about the points system, because I agree that it was flawed. I changed it to the system with the negatives, and it does more accurately reflect rewarding better placements while not erasing the bad placements. However, I believe that others are finding it difficult to take your concerns seriously because you have primarily been negative about what has been added. We discussed this in DMs and you still felt the need to come into the thread and express all the same concerns publicly. I'm not sure why that was necessary. Not only that, but you did very little to give me credit - you are saying that this is just a matter of copy/pasting, which is a "simple button click". This has been a lot more than that - reading through old threads to find data for immunity winners, formatting everything to make it consistent, changing/updating formulas... there's a reason that this has taken multiple days of work so far, and why nobody has taken on this task until now. Your negativity does not help my motivation to continue this. (Thank you to the people who have come to me to tell me otherwise!) In the future, I (and I'm sure others too) would appreciate constructive criticism instead.

I'll make a post when I'm done with everything!
 

Clouds

Let's jump the fence, I'm over this
is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus
The big upside to this point system is that it encourages, or will seek to encourage, active involvement in the community, which is something that it's clear to me has been a goal and one that you guys have been making big strides towards. It's not like it completely shafts those who have played less and done well, either, like TML still sits 4th after his 1 win in 1 season played and that's pretty good. The only part I see that could be interpreted as subjective is how much weight each factor that goes into the score holds, which is something I'm sure aj would be willing to discuss while it's in the works. But yeah, echoing the comments stating there's no harm in running a stat sheet on the side.

Thanks to everyone who put the work into creating it though, whether it be the old system or the new one. I think it's pretty neat to reference as a statistics geek, and it's just generally cool to have a record sheet and standings for something like this.
 

ajhockeystar

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Hey everyone! The sheet is finally at a state where I am good with sharing it. There's more stuff I might add, but this is what I aimed to do at the very least. Here's the link for the sheet again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...v0Xuh5gCbsxyv-QLWR7hPP21d8/edit#gid=103142775

Also, if you haven't already, please join the SmORGon hub discord! You'll get notifications whenever there's a new ORG happening: https://discord.gg/nB4PyJu

Here's a summary of what was added to the sheet:
-the info/sheet guide page, which has links to each other page on the sheet as well as a brief description for each game
-the winners tab was changed to ORG winners, and all orgs are listed there
-points earned was added to the survivor placements tab using the system explained earlier in this thread
-an ORG placements tab was added, which includes non-survivor ORGs
-for each season of survivor, the voting history, immunity history, tribe history, and fun facts can be seen on each page now (except CAP S1)
-the combined survivor stats page, which combines all of the following tabs into one
-individual immunities, 1 season and total across all seasons
-tribal immunities, 1 season and total across all seasons
-tribal immunities above/below expected, 1 season and above all seasons (I decided to use this instead of tribal immunity win percentage because I feel like it represents the data better. If someone loses their first challenge and gets voted out, their % will show as 0, which is the same as someone who loses 5 in a row and never wins. Also, for times when there are 3 tribes and only 1 wins immunity, having a 50% win percentage is better than average - that is fixed with this method too.)
-votes cast against, 1 season and total across all seasons
-tribal councils attended, 1 season and total across all seasons
-votes cast against/tribal councils attended ratio, 1 season and total across all seasons
-pages were added for the genius and 7 deadly sins, both taken from the genius compendium sheet
-non-detailed pages were added for fast survivor, stupid survivor, and sequester

As I mentioned before, I was considering added voting correctly % and things like that, but I find that's somewhat inaccurate due to people not voting for the boot due to vote splits and things of the like, or throwing away a vote on an otherwise unanimous boot to increase paranoia. It's also inaccurate when idols are played and the person getting voted for by the majority is saved - what is the "correct" vote then?

If anyone thinks that would still be interesting anyways, or if you have ideas for other stats I could reasonably compile, please let me know!
 
idrk what's up with points or any updates, but i do appreciate that the sheet is pretty and has colors :)

also i'm now third to last on survivor placements!! only Mikaav and He Who Shall Not Be Named are lower than me!!! if only i got voted out first in the latest official, then i might've ascended to my title as Shittiest Player on the Site

edit: I ascended in total ORG Placements, this is an Historical Day for smogonites of all walks of life
 
In light of recent incidents, why don’t we set a few table stakes for circus survivors to come:
1. Circus mods are admin in game server, so that they can monitor for host misconduct. Mods should also be roled appropriately so players can reach them if they wish.
2. cohosts are coHOSTS. They have decision making power in the game that they are cohosts for instead of just bodies for the main host to bully. And they should be viewed as such by the players as well
3. Banning players from servers goes through circus mods, or at least multiple cohosts

for the record this is all table stakes in all my games and should have been table stakes in all games

in addition we should put up a spreadsheet listing who’s hosting what when, given the recent decrease in hosting supply
 

ajhockeystar

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Moderator
For those that are interested, I finished updating the stats sheet with the results of Survivor: The Official! Here is the sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...v0Xuh5gCbsxyv-QLWR7hPP21d8/edit#gid=103142775

One thing of note is that I scaled down the points slightly to as if it was a 50 player game. This is because I was comparing the points to other games, and the point difference seemed somewhat unfair to me. Getting 1st in the 36 player game was equal to getting about 14th in this game. Getting 2nd in the 36 player game or 1st in the 24 player game was equal to getting about 21st in this game. From a ratio perspective, that seemed off, so I scaled it back. Now, 1st out of 36 is equal to about 3rd out of 80, and 2nd out of 36/1st out of 24 is equal to about 12 out of 80.

If I made any mistakes or you guys think anything should be done differently, please let me know!
 

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