Resource SV Doubles OU Viability Rankings

[zoe]

(kinda repeat of some of spurrific's noms but I already wrote some of these so :x)

Tier 1 -> Tier 2

In the situations where Dragonite looks really impressive, it usually has a Chien-Pao next to it. On its own it's still a good Pokemon, but it's not effective enough to be Tier 1 on its own. Assault Vest and Dragonite's other sets are good, but don't nearly exert as much influence on the builder as CB Dragonite does. Even then, CB Dragonite gets substantially worse without Chien-Pao not only due the substantial drop-off in power, but also the fact Chien-Pao outright beats the vast majority of Extreme Speed's resists, such as Gholdengo and Garganacl (the latter is 2HKOd by Sacred Sword and it takes about 30 from Extreme Speed, so while it is a big commitment, and Gholdego is still KOd by Sucker+Extreme Speed usually, even after becoming only Steel-type).

Calcs for above

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ruin Gholdengo: 153-181 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO (94.90% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)
252 Atk Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ruin Gholdengo: 151-178 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 86.3% chance to 2HKO (86.30% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)
252 Atk Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ruin Garganacl: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO (96.10% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ruin Garganacl: 117-138 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO (2.10% chance to 3HKO after accuracy)

In addition, Chien-Pao also helps beat two common forms of priority blocking by removing Psychic Terrain and threatening Tsareena with Ice Spinner, which allows Dragonite to break through the opposing team with Extreme Speed with less worry about both of those. All of the above help illustrate how CB Dragonite's dominance is partially due to Chien-Pao, and not the Pokemon by itself. Practically no other Pokemon can replicate what Chien-Pao does for Dragonite, and while Dragonite is undeniably outstanding on those structures, it would be more accurate if both Dragonite and Chien-Pao were placed in Tier 2 due to both of them being effective Pokemon in their own right, but they both drive physical offense team's success when paired together.

Tier 2 -> Tier 1

Possesses strong defensive utility with its typing and Good as Gold allowing it to come on on a number of Pokemon, including Amoonguss and Dragonite (mainly Extreme Speed for the latter). It's offensive presence is also very strong (pretty sure +2 Make it Rain does 80+ to Ting-Lu with Tera Steel lol), especially considering how Make it Rain is still a spread move, making it pretty much the best offensive Pokemon in the format, and I think its usage in both kickoff/DWCOP reflects that.

Tier 2 -> Tier 1

Extremely strong wincon with Bulk Up that can run away with games early on, puts on a lot of builder strain so you don't lose on preview to it while still having quite a bit of unpredictability, and has been insanely dominant in DWCOP semis so far.

Tier 3 -> Tier 2

Talked about most of Chien's strengths in the Dragonite nom, but this thing enables physical attackers to go from decent to outright monsters just by being on the field, while still possessing a strong offensive presence by itself, threatening stuff like Ting-Lu and Amoonguss relatively well, and I feel having it ranked in the same tier as the main Pokemon it enables is the right call.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

i have too many noms so il just do the spicy ones for this coming slate

grim to 4 to 5/UR

turns out its pretty low on the vr already at 4 but lets send it lower, prankster parting with screens seems nice on paper but between a million dark types, clear amulet and defiant anni it doesnt get anywhere as much value as it would in any previous tier. screens ape is very strong concept except slapping on screenbreaker is the easiest thing ever and kills 2 turns for 1.

arc 2 to 5

most ppl consider this the best intim atm but i think the good stuff it does is too telegraphed (wisp snarl morning sun) and strong counterplay exists for all its moves. intim is also worse now, not bad at all just between clear amulets and anni it has more counters. but mostly its the intim options not being great.

gyra to 4 to 3

i think this is the best intim, great with tinglu good typing. support set very annoying dtail taunt twave options, dd set is kinda wack some teams with good redirection support mainly for other mons could use it to ok effect. theres also snowball set and u can tera flying, not a fan of but it can work.

maus 4 to 2

i think the support set is incredible with tidy up, friend guard on a mon with ok bulk is great, and after 1 tidy up it can do very decent dmg at a good speed tier. very good on a team with rock weak mons. a role-compression mon of support and offense.

support:
follow me taunt tidy up encore

offense:
balanced move population bomb

attacker set (technician) could be ok too havent tried it properly yet, harder to get value but very big dmg

 

[GenOne]

UR -> 4 or 5

If it's good enough to be on a sample team it should be good enough to have a spot on the VR. In a meta without better Swift Swim mons, Barraskewda is an adequate rain attacker. Even outside of rain it can outspeed Chien-Pao, it has good offensive coverage with STAB Liquidation + Close Combat, and it also gets Psychic Fangs which provides screen removal utility. On the downside, Barraskewca is extremely frail.

UR -> 5

Another case of an UR mon making it to a sample team. This mon sucks but it does TR things on TR teams and is usable I guess...if this stays UR my feelings won't be hurt but I gotta be consistent with my nom logic.

4 -> 3

This was already nommed a few weeks ago but since that nom Grimmsnarl has continued to prove its worth on teams as a screen setter, and especially as an accomplice to Annihilape setups. I've observed in this gen more than any past gen that people are purposely running moves now like Psychic Fang to clear screens, which to me is evidence that Grimmsnarl has found a meaningful and respected niche in SV DOU.

 

[Amaranth]

some noms might be repeats bc i cannot be bothered double checking with every other post in this thread

1 -> 2
this mon is fat as hell and dies to nothing but it's also got a speed tier that's hard to salvage even if you have tailwind / not really the kind of mon you want to get value out of trick room turns. it has nice options and there are plenty of teams where i say "i want a tinglu here and it will kind of carry" but i feel like that's more of a consequence of checking chi-yu + gholdengo (the actual brokens) moreso than actually being a powerful mon per se. great mon i just don't think it's quite T1

2 -> 1
already nommed but this mon should be tier 0, everything is extremely warped around it, amoongs are running toxic and all

2 -> 1
being spore immune in amoonguss's metagame is quite nice; np and trick means it's always scary into teams trying to play a slow game, and teams trying to play a fast game usually crumble at the click of a single make it rain. outstanding pokemon, singlehandedly makes steel type relevant offensively

3 -> 1
archetype defining pokemon, absolutely should be in tier 1. hyper offense hardly survives without chienpao. can handily fit brickbreak too.

3 -> 4
nobody runs this, it just doesn't trade into things well enough. the meta is extremely fat and he offers very little to break through it, maybe after ape ban things will shift more offensively and he'll become relevant again but for now nah

3 -> 2
a premium water and special attacker in a tier where neither is too common relatively speaking, fast icy wind is very handy and it never feels like it's useless bc its coverage always hits a ton of stuff neutral or x2 in any given game. lot of flexibility with items and evs even if it realistically mostly runs the same moves all the time.

3 -> 5 or UR
with no flutter mane this is really useless

3 -> 2
actually a great pokemon, just struggles because of competition with amoonguss. but leech seed is mightily annoying in a slower meta where you can afford to click it, tablets of ruin is a great pretend intimidate to nerf chienpao and friends (who are sometimes immune to actual intimidate, see dnite), pollen puff is just as broken on him as it is on amoonguss, and in general he's honestly just a funny guy lol lmao

4 -> 2 or 1
this mon is meta defining but unfortunately brick break and psychic fangs exist. the fact that it's singlehandedly forcing so many random mons to tech in screenbreaks should say enough about its power level though; playing fat is a hell of a lot harder without grimm support and fat is meta defining. obviously elevated by annihilape for now, but i imagine he will stay relevant after he goes. parting shot is absolutely massive and other stuff like klefki really doesn't hit the same (i tried). vs potential screenbreaks just have the sense to scout them first and you'll be ok, grimm doesn't need to lead and click both screens every game

4 -> 3
good tailwind option if you want your murkrow to have actual stats but no prankster

4 -> 3
amoonguss+arcanine dictates the meta and this is one of very few mons that pressures both. access to tailwind and wide guard; solid bulk and decent at trading in general. great standalone mon, swift swimmers fully optional

5 -> 4
pains me to say that it's the better revival blessing user but he kind of just is; very neat in hyper offenses of various kinds as they usually run mons that die in 1 hit whether they're at 50% or 100% anyways lol. fakeout support is rare and very valuable too. neat mon

 

[Actuarily]

Some news:

With the VR council only consisting of 5 members, we decided it was time to grow. So we are happy to announce that YoBuddy and JRL will both be joining the VR Council! Both are longtime DOU Community members with great records and takes on the metagame, and we're confident they'll do an amazing job on the VR Council.

With that being said, we are planning to do a new VR slate once the Flutter Mane suspect is concluded. Since the qualification period ends this Sunday, January 8th, I would expect that the vote will probably be concluded by around Wednesday the 11th, so that's when we'd be aiming to start the new VR slate. So get in any last nominations now!

 

[ratpacker]

I haven't read any of the other nominations, here are mine :

Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Very threatening mon but it has reliable checks and answers in the tier.

Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Absolutely amazing mon with very versatile movepool and sets but it's not a staple that fits every team.

Tier 2 -> Tier 1+
Overcentralizing mon and having more than one check to it on your team is mandatory to avoid an unwinnable matchup. The Annihilape meta is even getting worse since more archetypes are appearing besides screen ape, like Wo-Chien - Psychic seed Annihilape.

Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Huge damage output, enables special attackers like Bundle and Glimmora, easily ends a game. A good user of Tera Blast, Chi-yu can essentially be used as a check for any bulky Pokemon that poses problems to your team.

Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Scarf is bad, Specs and Nasty Plot are ok. Gholdengo is frail, Gholdengo loses to almost everything in Tier 1 to 3, Gholdengo is slow, everything is Dark type, its ability and spread move are not enough to make up for it. It has nothing to do in Tier 2.

Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Dragapult is good to close games against a weakened team and has a good matchup into Dragonite and Screens, but it's a niche use.

Tier 3 -> Tier 4
There are better options for Tailwind but movepool and damage are decent.

Tier 4 -> Tier 2
Screens are good, Parting Shot is good, only used with Annihilape so far but I believe it will find its place on many other teams.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Has advantages and drawbacks over Murkow, like being able to Taunt Dark types and in Psychic Terrain, and a higher damage output. It is already a staple on rain teams.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Very few Pokemon run Electric type moves and its movepool make it a fit for a lot of teams, even without Swift Swim users.

Should Flami-go to unranked ? Yes.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Saw enough usage on sun teams to get bumped higher. Encore, Sleep Powder and Leaf Storm make it worth using.

UR -> Tier 4
Fullfills the same niche as Lilligant with access to Tailwind but without benefiting of Psychic Terrain.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4
This Pokemon is simply too strong for Tier 5, strong Atk and access to Stealth Rock make it worth considering.

Tier 5-> Tier 4
Tailwind and Intimidate in a meta where good Tailwind users are rare.

UR -> Tier 5
Salamence with a worse ability and a weakness to Close Combat but better offensive coverage.

Tier 5 -> Tier 3
Fast and bulky support Pokemon that can punish offensive and bulky teams.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Strong Fairy attackers are rare and far between.

 

[Glimmer]

Nom stuffs I guess

Tier 2 -> Tier 1+
This mon is too much for the tier. With further discovery of Ape teams I think it should be banned as it is way too overcentralizing.

Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Sure it is a really strong mon, but it doesn't deserve to be Tier 1 as it has checks and isn't as meta defining or splashable as a Tier 1 should be.

Tier 2 -> Tier 3
I don't feel like this mon does too much for how established its job is. It is an okay mon but nowhere close to Tier 2 in my opinion.

Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Sure this snail can do a bunch for a team, but it feels like it competes too much with Amoonguss and doesn't fit in a whole bunch of playstyles.

Tier 3 -> UR
This mon doesn't do much without Flutter Mane around, there are better priority users (mainly Dragonite).

Tier 3 -> Tier 4
It is fast that's true but it lacks the power, also not as splashable as you would expect a Tier 3 to be.

Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Now this is a great fast and strong mon. It defines a lot of archetypes and its presence on the field can't be ignored.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Brings a lot of support or offensive presence depending on the set on top of providing Intimidate support.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Fast and bulky, has a lot of nice support options. Even though it lacks power, it brings a whole lot of utility to the table.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Even though it may seem like a nicher option to Pawmot, I think Rabsca takes advantage of Revival Blessing to a much further extent, having good bulk even with the below average typing, access to extra support (mostly Trick Room) and decent power to pack it up. Great into fat.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Screens good? Screens good. Parting Shot good? Parting Shot good. Tier 3 potential? In my opinion absolutely.

UR -> Tier 4
Really good power and bulk paired with Earthquake immunity and Tailwind is a nice package. Draco Meteor is also just really nice to have.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Absurdly strong and bulky, access to priority and Stealth Rock. Nice mon overall.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Can do a lot for a team, having both a good offensive presence in Technician Population Bomb and also a lot of support in Friend Guard, Follow Me, Encore etc.

 

[umbry]

Seeing as dwcop is ending I figured Id post my personal vr and some quick noms.

(tiers 1-2 are ordered)

rises:
2 --> 1. Ban ape.

2 --> 1. Combination of good as gold and ghost/steel typing make it incredibly easy to fit gholdengo on so many teams, very rarely it feels like a deadweight and can run 3 different sets (scarf/specs/np) while posing a threat in almost every game.

3 --> 2. It has replaced flutter mane as chiyu's new best abuser though it doesn't necessarily need its presence to thrive. Bundle can fit on a variety of offensive/rain teams (booster energy+icy wind is excellent speed control) but on some balanced compositions as well as max hp is surprisingly quite bulky especially if also holding an assault vest as item.

3 --> 2. One of the best offense enablers, spurrific put it v well in his post so I just want to echo this mon deserving a rise.

4 --> 3. Probably the best tailwind user, in particular for hyper offense and rain teams. it has a nice offensive type combination and taunt as 4th move goes a long way when it comes to limiting slow teams.

4 --> 3. In my opinion it's about just as good as jugulis so I would rank those together, the only difference is what your team needs. Roaring moon has a pretty good special defense stat and dragon type offers quite a few useful resistances, acrobatics is great coverage and brick break does well into screens.

4 --> 3. Fast, hits hard and flower trick is a great tool into screens, definitely got way better in the current setup-heavy metagame. Also its probably the only viable knock off user though its not as big of a deal.

5 --> 3. Best steel when not using gholdengo, also the best gholdengo check. Can run both goggles and AV and performs well with both, defiant+sucker punch can be deadly especially when paired with strong enablers like chien pao, it's pretty close to being tier 2 imo.

4 --> 3. Rain is viable and very good, recent dwcop games also show that as it's been used a lot, it's one of the best hyper offense styles. Unfortunately, pelipper is still pelipper and it's held back a bit by it's bad stats, still deserves a rise nonetheless.

& to tier 4. Both viable tailwind setters, in my opinion less good than their paradox forms but still have a very real niche.

5 --> 4. Offensive sets like specs have seen more usage since flutter mane left the tier and with few viable steels switching into it can be quite the challenge, deserves a rise imo. Maybe it's a bit of a hidden gem but the goggles yawn set is also very viable in my opinion and puts the very common amoonguss in a kind of uno reverse situation.

drops:

1 --> 2. best sr option and great support, though it often has issues with being too passive and certain teams can't afford that, idt it should be tier 1.

1 --> 2. maybe a bit of a controversial opinion, amoonguss is always a very centralising force especially in pre-homes metagames as we are lacking tools like terrains to better account for spore but it's incredibly easy to abuse, especially if it's forced into running moves clear smog and toxic as 4th rather than the classic sludge bomb given the current metagame state, meaning the mon effectively lacks any real way of exerting offensive pressure. Imo meta has adapted quite well to amoonguss' presence, gholdengo and garganacl both have abilities that neutralise status moves, there's many viable goggles and grass type tera users (kingambit, chi-yu, palafin, arcanine, salamence, farigaraf, indeedee, maushold and probably more can viably fit into either of these 2 categories), moves like substitute and taunt are as common as ever and both can shut down amoonguss pretty quickly. While you do need multiple answers to spore, counterplay is relatively easy to fit and as people realise it amoonguss is starting to fall off a bit and probably will even more especially if its best partner annihilape ends leaving the tier, as it mostly takes up the role of pressuring the opposing team where amoonguss fails to do so. Obviously it still remains the best supporting pokemon in the tier, rage powder+pollen puff is amazing, I just don't think it deserves tier 1.

2 --> 3. Glimmora's place in the meta hasn't really changed, it's still as good as it used to be before and prolly has one of the biggest upsides a mon can have in the right matchups, I think it was a little overrated at the beginning.

2 --> 3. Similarly to glimmora I think hands was overrated a lot in the early stages of the meta though it has only gotten better since then especially with flutter mane's ban, solid tier 3.

2 --> 3. Good on momentum-heavy bulky offenses as it can free the team of hazards' pressure, though as sun became less prominent so did great tusk's ability to actually deal consistent damage, hence the drop, mon is still solid tho.

3 --> 4. A little underwhelming sadly, I think I'd rather run indeedee as a standalone to deal with priorities most of the times unless I'm really tunneling on trick room.

2 --> 4. Very big drop here, I'm just not a big fan of this pokemon, I think it's a little too passive and the meta became too unfriendly to it (lots of rain and glimmora) so idt it's in a great place.

3 --> 4. Body press sets actually don't achieve as much as they would want to and are a bit too slow, it would probably have better performances in games with a more utility centered set with wide guard or stealth rock but either way I haven't seen garga have much success in recent times.

3 --> 4. It is the "fastest" pokemon in the tier but really it isn't as you don't really want to run a choice scarf and booster energy users do a better job at being that kind of speed control so it faces big competition. Tho Ghost is a pretty good offensive typing and pult still does decent enough on some HOs.

3 --> 4. There aren't real ground resists so I was expecting garchomp to thrive not long after I started playing SV, turns out it's actually not that threatening and it's kind of in an awkward spot because sometimes it really want to be clicking earthquake but fitting many ground immunes/resists as partners to have that kind of freedom is difficult without compromising the entire team, also defensively its typing is not that great besides resisting fire attacks.

Thank you for reading! ^^

 

[Fangame10]

5 -> 4: People sleep on this pokemon, without flutter mane its the only real spread threatining Ape (at least until it terra fires :cwl:) and a general great sweeper in this meta with its lack of proper Steel type counters to it.

UR -> 5: Snow is usable, there've been some people aside from me who've had some success with it. Aurora Veil is still a stupid broken move that I have had success with when pairing it with pokemon like Calm Mind Sylveon, Nasty Plot Farigiraf and Swords Dance Iron Hands (Who especially becomes quite unkillable similar to ape with drain punch)

 

[bagel]

UR -> 5/4: Solid defensive option that matches up decently well into common threats like Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao. Intimidate is still valuable (even moreso after what I assume will be an Ape ban in the near future, as it matches up much better into Kingambit) and it has decent to good bulk especially with an Assault Vest. Resisting rocks is nice in such a hazard heavy metagame where the other common intimidate Mons are weak to them. Its comparable to Arcanine but with less utility and more offensive pressure imo. Personally I've liked it on rain next to Chien-Pao if you can spare a slot for it as I've found it helps when matching up against other weathers. I haven't explored the fire variant but I imagine it could carve out a similar niche as an alternative to Arcanine (neutral to rocks, dark resist, 100 base speed).

 

[EternalSnowman]

Wanna give my opinions on DOU after DWCOP since I probably won't play for a while, and I feel decently qualified to give an opinion going 3-0 in playoffs.

Rises:

3 -> 2: Excellent speed control, good matchup into Rain, good matchup into opposing offenses and strong support mon. This mon had a lot of strong showings in DWCOP playoffs. It pairs well with Chi-Yu but also is just strong individually, it's hard to switch in to and can cause problems for many teams.

4 -> 3/2: Rain is easily the best weather right now, Rain enables Palafin/Jugulis/Dragonite etc. a lot and is very strong in general, I don't think this needs a ton of explanations, but water resists aren't that common in current meta, and a lot of the good ones lose to Hurricane as well. You don't really need to look further than DWCOP finals, Europe brought rain to most matches with good success.

4 -> 3: Same vein as above, Jugulis is one of the best overall abusers of rain, it's high speed w/ booster energy and ability to spam Hurricane makes it a fantastic mon for offense.

4 -> 3: I'd probably go up to 2, but I think Roaring Moon's main usefulness in the meta diminishes a little with Ape leaving since it matches up extremely well vs. standard Ape structures, but I believe it's still very good. It's strong, fast and has access to a lot of good coverage + Tailwind. Acro Flying sets are probably the best use case on offense, but I think there is a lot of room to explore w/ this mon and it could be even higher in the future.

UR -> 4/3: Really underrated mon in the current meta, boasting a great support pool and good defensive typing, between Levitate and Tera, it has so many options to play around. It's quite strong as well and it pairs very well with Gholdengo and can just do well in a lot of structures due to its flexibility and large movepool.

&

UR -> 5: This one is probably the hottest take of these noms, but I think Snow is extremely underexplored in the current meta, I'd even say that I'd put these 2 as high as 4, I think Snow is actually probably stronger than Sand overall. I think Snow has decent matchups into a lot of meta relevant stuff, and Abomasnow does not necessarily need to be run with Cetitan, I think AVeil by itself + having good coverage is decent justification enough to run the mon. Cetitan is really good vs. a lot of meta relevant things, outpacing and OHKO'ing Jugulis, Chi-Yu, Dragonite, Tsareena, etc. It provides a lot of offensive presence and due it's high natural bulk it matches up fairly well into prio spam teams. I used these 2 in the finals Tiebreak for DWCOP and it's a decent demonstration of their power, albeit with a bit of luck: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-669413

UR -> 5: I think this mon could even be higher, but gonna play it safe since I think it gets a bit worse with Ape leaving the tier. Mirror Herb Tauros is a really good overall set that can take advantage of the Defiant users to get +2 for yourself, and it's solid 100 speed tier alongside good offenses can make for a pretty solid mon. I think Water Breed is very good, and Fire Breed is mostly still outclassed by Arcanine, but has a small niche in that it can take on Chi-Yu and have a bit better speed.


Drops:

1 -> 2: This is also kind of a hot take, but I think Ting-Lu suffers a little from the fact that Glimmora is also really strong right now, and I see them as on the same level. Glimmora also provides a slot that can hazard control + set hazards, while Ting-Lu sets hazards while supporting the team w/ its damage reduction. However, I think due to the current strong meta teams, it struggles a little bit to stay on the field without Tera'ing in certain matchups, and it doesn't take advantage of tera as much as other mons to really win a game, and in matchups where it can't really apply pressure with hazards, it isn't really threatening. Still really strong mon, but more in line with Tier 2 mons atm imo.

3 -> 5: This mon doesn't really do much for most structures, as a Tailwind setter, you are better off playing around Hydrei/Mence/Roaring Moon etc. And Steel Prio isn't as valuable without Flutter Mane in the tier, defensively it isn't great and offensively it doesn't quite output enough damage.

Other noms:

I have a bunch of other mons I want to nom but don't really wanna explain why since I don't feel that strongly about their positions, but generally should be self explanatory based on results of DWCOP.

3 -> 2

3 -> 4

3 -> 4

4 -> 5/UR

4 -> 3

5 -> UR

5 -> UR

5 -> UR

5 -> 4/3

5 -> 4

5 -> UR

5 -> 4/3

 

[Arcticblast]

I know this stuff is all for next slate, but I want to chime in on a few Pokemon:

UR -> 4/5 -- I don't really have anything to say that bage1 and ES didn't already say; this is a good Pokemon. It has its share of poor matchups and does not belong on every team, but it matches up really well against a few big threats and makes a place for itself.

UR -> 5 -- Talonflame has just enough support moves to be worth a spot on the viability rankings. Wisp and Defog help set it apart from Murkrow, and the Fire typing gives it a handy resistance to Heat Wave and Make It Rain.

UR -> 5 -- Iron Moth hasn't been explored much yet, but I think it has potential. It's very fast, Specs puts out obscene damage, and I've heard of people using Acid Spray sets (similar to its role in the current VGC series) to good effect. Unfortunately, I think competition with Chi-Yu keeps it from going any higher, but a better Sylveon matchup and an ever so slightly better Bundle matchup helps it out:
40 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 254-300 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Iron Moth can actually run 80 HP / 4 SpD to guarantee it survives AV Bundle Hydro Pump! The key here though is it doesn't make your partner take extra damage.
edit: yeah I know it doesn't get Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave's fine

4 -> 5 -- I don't really want to give up on Bonnet yet, and I think a weird Amoonguss can only be so bad, but I don't think this belongs in 4. I have yet to see it used particularly effectively, and I expect it to stay that way. I can see this dropping to UR too, I just like it.

4 -> UR -- all dogs are good dogs, but this dog is not viable in Scarlet & Violet Doubles Overused

 

[Mizuhime]

figure i'd give my thoughts on some rankings quickly before work today

Everything in tier 1 and 2 is ordered for the most part, could be changed around a bit

Chein-Pao -> 3 -> 1 - Known fact that Chien-Pao is the biggest "enabler" in the tier, dropping every other mons defence is beyond crazy to me still. Chien-Pao mere presence makes it so Pokemon like Dragonite and Pawmont and infinitely more annoying to deal with. Easy Tier 1 and probably the best Pokemon in the tier.

Gholdengo - 2 ->1 - People have started to use the Nasty Plot sets extremely well and it creates an entire new world where playing against Gholdengo isn't as easy as it was prior. If you don't have enough offensive pressure against it you just lose.

Chi-Yu - 2 -> 1 - The other enabler of the tier, again, lowering everything spdef is a massive resource to have for any team and can turn things that wouldn't KO into KO's. People have started running bulky variants that don't die to every attack ever giving Chi-Yu more longevity in a battle.

Arcanine 2 -> 1 - It somehow is one of the only Pokemon that checks both Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu at the same time. Willo is still a great move and snarl is an even better move. Arc can also get healing from other places now like Amoongus meaning it's longevity is much higher than it was in previous generations.

Dragonite 1 -> 2 - Dragonite is enabled by Chien-pao a majority of the time, not to say it isn't good but it's assuredly not tier 1 and probably wouldn't even be tier 2 without Chien-Pao giving it the extra boost it needs to get kills.

Bundle 3 -> 2 - Amazing speed tier with amazing support options in Icy Wind as well as Aurora Veil, the ability to deal with most water types on its own, the ability to ohko Chi-yu, and it can even be ran as a hail attacker if you want with access to Blizzard.

Garchomp 3 -> 2 - Chomper has a lot of natural bulk, great all around stats and an amazing speed tier that not many Pokemon in this metagame can actually outrun. Added bonus of being a soft mouse check and that a lot of teams right now are pretty weak to Ground attacks in general.

Mausehold 4 -> 2 - Neat little support Pokemon or a Pokemon that can blow up anything with the Delete button Pop Bomb.


As far as some of my other placements goes as following - Torkoal and Pelliper are tier 3 because those are the two best weathers arguably while both also provide something to their team that is more than just their weather. Abomasnow and Tyranitar are 4 because their weathers are a lot more one dimensional. Weather abusers are in tier 5 because they need their respective weather to be able to do anything productive in a battle. Most intimidate mons end up in tier 4 because they're all not without flaw this generation.

 

[SuckyLucky]

UR -> 2/3

Hydreigon is currently UR and one of the better pokemon in the tier right now, just on versatility alone. Tailwind and Taunt are great utility moves, and max speed Timid is 324, a very solid speed tier. Being dark type also allows it to ignore Murkrow for the vast majority of the game, and can wall Amoonguss easily. It gets snarl, which can be used to cripple special attackers like Torkoal, Farigiraf, Gholdengo, Armarouge, and more depending on the sets and tera type. Speaking of, Steel Tera is very useful, turning the double weakness to Fairy into a resist, and also gives a dragon resistance to common threats which outspeed it outside of Tailwind like Garchomp. Other attacks include Draco Meteor for big damage, which can OHKO plenty of pokemon, especially if using life orb instead of a healing berry. Flash cannon, Hydro Pump, Earth Power, and tons of other options for coverage. Good partners include Murkrow, who can set up Tailwind for Hydreigon and Haze away the Draco Meteor drop in stats. Additionally, Arcanine can intimidate and will o wisp physical attackers, and Grimmsnarl can set up screens and fake out for outspeeding threats and guaranteed TW. This isn't even mentioning that is can DDance sweep as well.

 

[Actuarily]

The much anticipated update to the VR has been completed! Thanks to all for their nominations.

Paraplegic has stepped down from the VR council, we thank him for his hard work and wish him the best!

Here's the votes:

Meowscarda: 4 -> 2

votes

Actuarily: Tier 4. Flower trick is nice into a metagame with a lot of screens & set up, however it doesn’t quite have the movepool or the speed tier to be the offensive threat it wants to be. Unfortunate that basically all the stuff faster than it hits it super effectively.

JRL: Tier 4. It is good against boosting pokes, but needs more damage and more bulk.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Good speed tier and nice offensive stabs. Makes good use of sash with its typing and still hits surprisingly hard, but still very frail, gets ohkod by a ton, doesn’t like priority, and doesn’t hit all that hard outside stabs.

SMB: Tier 4 is fine, it allows bulky wincons to have a easier time vs teams that don’t have a poison type, although that’s rare, while putting a lot of offensive pressure. Band set is solid enough.

YoBuddy: Tier 4. Pretty solid offensively, good into screens and has nice utility with Knock Off, U-Turn etc. However a lot of its good matchups are less relevant (screens) or banned (Tera Water Annihilape) than earlier in the meta.

Yoda2798: Tier 4.The biggest point in Meowscarada’s favour was using Flower Trick’s crits against boosters and screens, which without it’s fairly niche. It’s decent if you specifically want a Grass-type attacker but generally other Pokemon are better (like Chien-Pao).

Wo-Chien: 3 -> 5/2

votes

Actuarily: Tier 3. It’s a solid wincon in a tier full of them, and it has poor matchups into many of the biggest offensive threats like Chien-Pao & Chi-Yu. Faces a ton of competition with Amoonguss, and most teams are better off running the latter.

JRL: Tier 3. It has great bulk and supports teams with pollen + ablity, good poke

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. I am a huge fan of this mon but I think right now it just doesn’t have the tools it needs to succeed. Kind of falls into the hole celesteela used to be for a large portion of gen 7 and 8, where it had great defensive utility and staying power with leech seed, but not enough offensive pressure to take advantage of any of it. Snail takes it a step back with a much more iffy defensive typing, albeit with better bulk. Kind of survives off of passive bulky teams existing, but certainly doesn’t thrive.

SMB: Tier 4, very often too passive and slow, with many glaring weaknesses. Sometimes it’s annoying and yeah it can win games but that’s it, it needs many things to make progress

YoBuddy: Tier 3. Not entirely sold on this mon with its poor defensive typing, awkward stat spread and only Leech Seed for recovery. That being said it does have a lot of excellent attributes with Tablets of Ruin, good bulk, Knock Off, Ruination and can Tera into a much better defensive type if the matchup calls for it. I once saw a +0 Tsareena only do ~40% to this with U-Turn, so it can do some wild things defensively.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. I’ve been convinced by ratpacker, people seriously need to use the good set though (Assault Vest). Good defensive Pokemon but doesn’t fit on every team and can be caught out being passive, especially when using the bad set. Not splashable enough for Tier 2 but good enough for Tier 3.

Pelipper: 4 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: Tier 3. Rain is actually quite good, despite the lack of good swift swimmers. Pelipper’s coverage is great into the metagame, able to hit Amoonguss,, Chi-Yu, Ting-Lu, Arcanine, and Glimmora super effectively, but its mediocre speed and special attack do leave a lot to be desired.

JRL: Tier 3. Key to get the weather, with good bulk and tailwind. It also has support moves and has 2 good stab

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Rain is a solid playstyle and pelipper is a solid mon right now. Water/flying is a surprisingly good defensive typing right now, and pelipper manages to provide a lot of value with support options like tailwind and wide guard. Hurricane is also a great and spammable attack for it.

SMB: Tier 3 i guess, rain is good and usually it can stay on the field for a long time which is something that it couldn’t do in other gens. Sometimes too passive.

YoBuddy: Tier 3. Drizzle mons only need to exist to be viable and Pelipper actually does more than exist. Its STABs, Tailwind and Wide Guard are all fairly valuable and while the current Swift Swimmers are mediocre Palafin, Gholdengo and Iron Jugulis are good enough to make rain a solid playstyle right now.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Rain is good enough for Tier 3, and Pelipper actually does more than just set rain, as YoBuddy explained.

Grimmsnarl: 4 -> 2/1

votes

Actuarily: T3, it has some value on set up teams by setting screens, but outside of that it often falls flat. Feels like you’re playing 2v1 a lot, and like YoBuddy mentioned there’s so many ways to play around screens, its priority moves, and parting shot

JRL: Tier 3. the screens this meta have been very useful thanks to this poke. parting shot is the key move.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4, best screens setter right now. It worked really well on Annihilape screens, but that’s moreso because of annihilape holding together that team comp by virtue of how well it abuses screens, rather than anything innately great about grimmsnarl or the team comp itself. Doesn’t do much of value outside setting screens, but it can accomplish enough between typing + stats + utility options to set it apart from other screens setters. Still functions on similar teams with an ape replacement but definitely not as threatening without ape.

SMB: Tier 5, i’m not a screens believer unless it’s aurora veil, you play 2v1 with it on the field and it’s easy to reset in 1 turn what it does in 3

YoBuddy: Tier 4. It was better when it had broken Annihilape to carry its viability with screens. Now there aren’t as many things you really want screens for. Ironically Grimmsnarl being less relevant helps it in a way because people won’t run screen breaking moves as often. Its other options are pretty inconsistent considering there are a million good dark types/Gholdengo/Tsareena/Farigiraf/Indeedee to prevent it from spamming Parting Shot/Thunder Wave/Fake Tears/etc. freely, not to mention potentially clicking Parting Shot into Clear Amulet.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Would have been Tier 3 with Annihilape, but without it screens are much harder to justify. As others have said, nothing else really benefits from screens as much as Annihilape did, and Grimmsnarl does little beyond screens. Still the best screens setter though, but feels fine where it is.

Maushold: 4 -> 2

votes

Actuarily: T4. Has an interesting dynamic where it’s either a solid support mon or a dangerous offensive threat, but its support set isn’t very bulky, and its offensive set has little to no coverage.

JRL: Tier 4. It is versatile, it can be used offensively and more support. Population bomb is a great move, but it doesn't reach the level of other pokes.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Very strong, but the strong set is also very one-dimensional. Struggles to work as an offensive threat with 0 viable coverage options, no bulk, and bad defensive typing. Also struggles to be a follow me utility mon due to its bulk and typing. Has some interesting use in trying to be a mix of the two, but doesn’t accomplish either role with enough value to be ranked higher.

SMB: tier 4 and the award to most annoying pokemon in this gen

YoBuddy: Tier 3. I’m not sold on the support oriented sets much but I’ve laddered with an offensive set and the combination of its power, speed tier and emergency support moves (mostly Follow Me) has impressed me.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. An interesting Pokemon, especially with Population Bomb, but as others have said it can’t fully realise the potential of being an offensive and support Pokemon. Had a niche as an optional Annihilape partner, but I haven’t been impressed enough outside of that yet for it to rise.

Chien-Pao: 3 -> 1

votes

Actuarily: T1. The Flutter ban makes this the biggest immediate offensive threat in the tier, has excellent offensive coverage between ice/dark/fighting to hit a lot of the bulkiest mons, except for Arcanine. Its speed when combined with sucker punch’s priority ensures it gets off its attacks. Also enables many powerful partners.

JRL: Tier 1. In addition to being very fast, he has an ability that makes him hit harder, not only himself, but also his teammates. It moves well and can have some more defensive sets that can make it last longer in battle.

Nido-Rus: Tier 1. Pretty much the face of a significant number of teams right now. Enables incredible breaking power from a wide number of potential partners such as dragonite, palafin, arcanine, great tusk, etc. Does have a bit of 4MSS, but just existing on the field usually provides incredible pressure.

SMB: tier 2, having a metagame as focused on physical priority moves is a blessing and a curse for it, meh pokemon with a strong ability that struggles to be on the field for more than 2 turns (sometimes that’s enough to win), i don’t think it’s tier 1 worth

YoBuddy: Tier 1. A really potent offensive threat that enables a number of strong partners, mainly Dragonite and Palafin. I thought that it would always be forced into Sash sets but we saw Assault Vest manage to take a Make It Rain in DWCOP, which helps push it to 1 for me. It can struggle to run all the moves for every situation, you want Throat Chop for Indeedee and Farigiraf but Sucker otherwise and you really need the fighting coverage as well. However I still think it is in an excellent spot right now.

Yoda2798: Tier 1. This is a fantastic Pokemon, being very self-sufficient and easily capable of being effective without much support. It’s one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, has excellent coverage between its STABs and a Fighting-type attack, with excellent utility on top of those moves in priority with Sucker Punch, terrain removal with Ice Spinner (which is especially good with common partner Dragonite), screen removal with Brick Break, or ignoring boosts with Sacred Sword. Sword of Ruin compliments it perfectly, benefitting its glass cannon nature, while making physical attacker teammates better of which there’s many good partners available. Its biggest weakness is its frailty but Focus Sash covers that well while Sword of Ruin makes up for the lack of a boosting item, in DWCOP Assault Vest has seen success too.

Dragonite: 1 -> 2

votes

Actuarily: T2. Can still be extremely dangerous as a late game cleaner, especially next to Chien-Pao, but really wants to always be your Tera mon and teams now run normal resists/immunities or priority stoppers to be prepared for extremespeed. Two ghosts getting banned has been good for it though.

JRL: Tier 2. Very strong poke and that takes advantage of chien-pao very well. When you play it without chien-pao it loses a lot of power.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Very solid but the banded set often needs to tera to properly clean up a game, and is also often very projected, which can be taken advantage of. A lot of people have instead started to find more value in mixed sets with hurricane, draco, tailwind etc.

SMB: i already voted this to 2 the last time, i guess the confirmation of flutter mane departure is good for it, hits strong etc but the lack of versatility and almost having to use your gen gimmick mechanic on it almost 100% of the times is really bad, also needs some support to get ohkos

YoBuddy: Tier 2. It’s a very strong mon but people are prepared enough for it now to stop it regularly dominating games. It has to Tera often to be threatening, which sucks because the flexibility of Tera is one of its major benefits. Not to mention you don’t want to run it with other mons that want to Tera often, limiting how many teams you can use it on.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Choice Band, Tera Normal, Sword of Ruin Extreme Speed is incredibly strong, but without all those boosts Dragonite is nowhere near strong, limiting its effectiveness outside of that. Gholdengo and Annihilape are immune to Extreme Speed, there’s other resists like Glimmora and Garganacl too, Tera Ghost and Steel are viable options on a number of Pokemon and further limit it, while Indeedee-F is quite hot now and Tsareena is common on rain; teams are more prepared for Dragonite. Dragonite is more of a Chien-Pao partner (a Pokemon great in its own right outside of aiding Dragonite) than a standalone Pokemon you just slap on any team and does well. Other sets are cool but not an argument for Tier 1.

Gholdengo: 2 -> 1

votes

Actuarily: Tier 2. While it’s great into Amoonguss, it has a poor matchup into nearly all of the other top pokemon in the tier, such as Ting-Lu, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Great Tusk, Iron Hands, Palafin, Arcanine.. Etc. I think its best fit is on rain, where rain can handle many of these other threats, with Gholdengo able to switch in on Amoonguss.

JRL: Tier 1. Good type and many good variants, trick + scarf or specs is good against fat pokes. Safe change vs amoongus, with tera water can do a great job.

Nido-Rus: Tier 1. Yobuddy and yoda explain it well. Its ability essentially frees up an item slot and provides it with a mostly unique combination where it can switch into amoonguss, threaten it, and still have a free item slot. On top of this, it has a great defensive and offensive typing, decent bulk, and amazing moves.

SMB: I will quote our favourite user with a mtg card name “Scarf is bad, Specs and Nasty Plot are ok. Gholdengo is frail, Gholdengo loses to almost everything in Tier 1 to 3, Gholdengo is slow, everything is Dark type, its ability and spread move are not enough to make up for it.”. Tier 2 is more than enough.

YoBuddy: Tier 1. The defensive utility combined with its power make this a really easy mon to put on a lot of teams. It can struggle 1v1 against a lot of good mons but it still manages to contribute to pretty much every game.

Yoda2798: Tier 1. Make It Rain turns Gholdengo into one of the best spread attackers, with Choice Specs and Nasty Plot both being effective (Choice Scarf is okay but not as good). Its typing and ability provide a lot of defensive utility to it, especially being able to completely take advantage of Amoonguss for free without using an item slot which can be invaluable for teams. Fits on and does well on so many teams, not just rain.

Chi-Yu: 2 -> 1

votes

Actuarily: T2. While it hits extremely hard, it really wants a better speed tier. Many of the top offensive threats hit it first and ohko it, so it’s often reliant on a surprise Tera to hit them back. In proper speed control, or with the right partner on the field it can absolutely sweep though.

JRL: Tier 1. Ability that enhances his special attack, in sun it destroys and makes the teammates hit more. It also has support moves like snarl or wow that can make it play on more defensive sets.

Nido-Rus: Tier 1, imo one of the best tier 1s right now. Bulky sets are what push it over the top for me. These still hit incredibly hard, but also provide chi-yu with significant pivoting potential and let it live for a lot longer. This also helps circumvent the speed tier issue. It can still hit the slower benchmarks and outspeed the same mons as before, but no longer suffers as much against faster mons that would otherwise take advantage of it.

SMB: tier 2, i think all the priority moves hurt it too much, scarf sets need to make use of tera to get ohkos and other sets need different kinds of support tools on the rest of the team slots. It’s close to tier 1 but I don’t think it is at it yet.

YoBuddy: Tier 1. Chi-Yu is probably the worst of the Tier 1s but it has excellent power and supports its team well enough. It can Tera to flip a losing situation on its head and the Tera type isn’t always predictable. Ghost, Grass or Fire can all swing momentum in the Chi-Yu player’s favour. Snarl also allows it to support its team and is excellent against Trick Room teams, which already fear its strong Heat Waves after Trick Room goes down. Specs Snarl also does significant damage. You can also try to sneak Will-O-Wisp on Specs sets as well to catch some opponents off guard.

Yoda2798: Tier 1. An incredible damage engine even without Flutter Mane, with Iron Bundle being a superb new partner for it. Chi-Yu’s Heat Wave is the most spammable spread move in the tier, without the drops of Gholdengo’s Make It Rain, the awkwardness of using Earthquake, or immunities that Armarouge’s Expanding Force faces. With Snarl too Chi-Yu does a great job of stopping Trick Room teams, while Dark Pulse and Overheat (among other Fire-type attacks) let it dish out big damage to a single target as well. Investing in bulk or using Tera Ghost / Grass cover the defensive side well enough, and while Chi-Yu does wish it was a bit faster it’s still fast enough. I need to reiterate how good Iron Bundle is a partner, especially with Icy Wind taking care of those pesky faster Pokemon. Rain is annoying, but Dark Pulse stops it from being useless as long as you dodge Palafin. It does require a little support to get everything out of it, but Chi-Yu provides so much damage output in return that it’s well worth it and enough for Tier 1 in my eyes.

Torkoal: 3 -> 2

votes

Actuarily: Tier 3. Flutter was the best photosynthesis abuser, and with that banned Torkoal is really just finding its place on Fullroom or dedicated sun teams, both of which are passable in the current metagame. It still is the best TR attacker and can enable some other proto mons, so T3 seems appropriate.

JRL: Tier 3. It puts the sunny weather and in a trick room it is very powerful. It also has good support moves like helping hand or clear smog that can be useful in a more defensive build. It also makes protosynthesis pokes get more potential.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Still a solid mon that can be used in or out of trick room, but it continues to suffer from its speed tier and inability to provide value on its own at times. Photosynthesis mons existing along with its new move helping hand do help, but not enough to propel this to becoming a premier tier 2 threat.

SMB: tier 3, best tr abuser and the only drought user in the tier with a full roster of pokemon with sun dependent abilities

YoBuddy: Tier 3. Torkoal is a great Trick Room abuser but I don’t think that Trick Room/Sun is a Tier 2 playstyle right now. Non-speed Protosynthesis boosts are nice but not that impactful to necessitate running Torkoal on a team.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Has an important place on certain teams which benefit from it but not something you can just slap on a team and do well by itself. As others have said, the Trick Room and sun teams it fits on aren’t enough for Tier 2 at the moment.

Tyranitar: 4 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: T4. Sand is just okay currently, and if not being run on sand you’d probably rather use Ting-Lu or Glimmora.

JRL: Tier 4. It has good stabs and the tera makes it remove weaknesses, and there could be some good offensive sets. There are also pokes that put hazards in a better way. At the moment you can't take much advantage of the weather.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Sand was in an iffy state when ape teams were running around which was close to an instaloss matchup, but losing ape has made sand a lot more usable. Still not great at the moment since physical teams with chien-pao run through it with strong priority moves and ground/fighting/water type attacks. Sand also has a particularly hard time against rain, which often runs mons like palafin, gholdengo, and tsareena, all of which end up being rough matchups.

SMB: sand is tier 5 and i don’t know why would you use this outside of sand so tier 5

YoBuddy: Tier 4. Tyranitar has some good matchups into top pokemon, like Chi-Yu, but its poor speed tier and typing hold it back. It also can’t Tera out of a bad matchup as easily as most pokemon unless it wants to lose its Sand Spdef boost. The current Sand abusers are also pretty mediocre.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Sand isn’t the best at the moment, especially compared to say rain. Fighting-type Pokemon and coverage are quite common, among other things like Amoonguss, Gholdengo, and Palafin which makes the meta pretty hostile for Tyranitar specifically. As Actuarily said, unless you specifically want sand then something like Ting-Lu / Glimmora / Garganacl is probably just better.

Lycanroc: UR -> 3

votes

Actuarily: UR. Sash endeavor is cool on sand, but it just doesn’t hit hard enough to justify being viable really.

JRL: UR. it is brittle and needs to hit harder. In the arena it could have more potential by having +2 in speed and +1.5 in special def, but it is not used.

Nido-Rus: Tier 5. Has nice value with sash or LO, but doesn’t hit quite hard enough on its own. Value is also limited since it means stacking an extra rock type on a team comp that’s already iffy against rain and physical spam.

SMB: in my book tier 5 is for pokemon that can trade 1 for 1 in normal conditions, i doubt the ability of lycanroc to even do that since it needs to get hitted first with something that would ohko and it also needs special weather conditions. Very meh sand abuser too. UR.

YoBuddy: Tier 5. I fully expect to rank this UR at some time in the future but it has had some success in DWCOP so I’ll give it a shot at tier 5 for now. Gholdengo, hazards, priority and other weathers being good all hurt it. It has next to no competition as a sand abuser so it is at least usable.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Works as an attacker on sand, but sand isn’t the best, and it’s not so good that you should go out of your way to use sand to get Lycanrock.

Palafin: 2 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: T2. Once palafin is in its hero form, it’s an excellent late game cleaner that also punishes a lot of the top threats in the tier like Chien-pao, Gholdengo, Chi-yu. Can get even more coverage/power now that it doesn’t have to fit haze onto its sets. Amoonguss’ dominance as the best support mon is the only thing holding Palafin back.

JRL: Tier 2. Rain and chien pao is how you get the most potential. It has very strong priority and with tera it can have even more power. It also has good support moves like taunt or encore.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Very reliable pivot and late game cleaner. Bulky sets and/or opportune tera grass can allow it to muscle past a lot of potential checks. Still limited in being a pure water type and in needing the extra turn to switch out to begin performing.

SMB: tier 2, if amoonguss wouldn’t exist i could even see it at 1, I don’t think having to switch out to get full potential is that much of a deal. Probably more sets like bulk up will be used now that ape got banned but for now even if it is pretty one dimensional, it’s great at what it does

YoBuddy: Tier 2. It is held back by needing to switch in order to use it and it kinda needs to run 3 water moves most of the time but it is essentially an uber once it hits Hero form. It isn’t as threatening without Rain or Chien-Pao support but both Chien-Pao and Rain are quite strong right now. Also please hard switch in Zero form and Flip Turn in Hero form.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. The ability drawback is manageable after people have stopped always clicking Flip Turn even in bad spots, and once it comes back out in Hero form, Palafin is the strongest single-target attacker in the meta, and has strong priority that isn’t as reliant on Tera as Dragonite’s Extreme Speed. Being stuck with multiple Water-type moves is not so bad in practice due to how hard it hits even against resists. Certainly works best with rain boosting its attacks, but Palafin is more than serviceable enough outside of that to fit in Tier 2.

Scizor: 3 -> 5

votes

Actuarily: T4. With Flutter Mane gone Scizor isn’t nearly as good, but still pairs nicely with Palafin for a solid pivot + priority core. Can fit tailwind and has some good matchups still. Also is good into all the Pokémon with abilities to stop priority.

JRL: Tier 5. its priority was more useful with flutter in the meta, it has a good type and it has tailwind which is very good but it is turned off by other pokemon that do their job better.

Nido-Rus: Tier 5. Still has some borderline value as an offensive pivot and utility in tailwind, but doesn’t survive for long and its speed tier holds it back pretty hard.

SMB: tier 5 or even UR, priority + tailwind is good but i can’t see many teams where it can fit and the utility it will provide won’t be good enough most likely

YoBuddy: Tier 5. Bullet Punch, U-Turn and Tailwind are nice but its stats outside attack are mediocre. It has potential but isn’t something I would really consider when building a team, either as an option or a threat to check.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Bullet Punch for Flutter Mane was the main selling point before and that’s gone, other priority attackers like Dragonite and Palafin are better, Gholdengo is a much better Steel-type, and there’s numerous better Tailwind options (it being so slow also makes it sad as a Tailwind setter compared to other stuff).

Volcarona: 4 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: T4. The ragepowder set is passable, but Volcarona’s bulk is always going to limit it as a redirector. The quiver dance set hasn’t really been used too much, could be underexplored, but without much to go on except a few SV kickoff games I would keep it at T4.

JRL: Tier 4. He is forced to use heavy boots due to how common hazards, the quiver set is the only one that can do some work, but you will also have a hard time doing your job.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. The rage powder set is useful but bulk and non-grass typing are naturally an issue. QD Tera grass is a still-underutilized threat that I believe helps this mon quite a bit, but also faces issues in not being able to hit chi yu or other fire types, and not really solving volcarona’s bulk problem.

SMB: tier 4, i still have some faith in quiver dance sets but it’s so frail and there are so many strong priority moves

YoBuddy: Tier 4. It is similar to Gyarados in that they have a decent support set and a decent set up set but neither is really that strong. You can do some cool things with Tera Grass Quiver Dance + Giga Drain but I haven’t seen that set have too much success outside the first few weeks of the game.

Yoda2798: Tier 5. Definitely hasn’t proven itself enough for Tier 3, I think this should actually move in the opposite direction. Quiver Dance hurts with the priority and Tailwind going round, rain (especially Booster Energy Iron Jugulis) also makes it worse. Rage Powder is better but still not great, there’s better redirectors, Tailwind setters, and Fire-types, and the role compression isn’t super valuable, especially with how physically frail it is.

Pawmot: 5 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: Tier 4. Definitely the better revival blessing mon, and has some merits with its nice speed tier and offensive typing. But generally outclassed by Iron Hands and is super frail.

JRL: Tier 4. Revival Blessing with fake out are so good, it also has a good base speed that makes it ko common threats like chi yu.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. I sincerely believe this thing will go higher, but as of right now revival blessing is still too underexplored to have enough value for a higher placing. Pawmot has significant use outside just revival blessing, but is kind of forced into 4 standard moves- fake out + stabs + revival blessing.

SMB: fast revival blessing and fake out bot, tier 4 just because i think that revival blessing is broken

YoBuddy: Tier 4. I can’t see the Revival Blessing mons go any higher than this unless someone figures out some kind of broken team with it (Annihilape was broken without Blessing). While it has tremendous potential the move is pretty awkward. You first need to wait to lose a mon and then bring in your Blessing mon and you only revive at 50% (effectively less if your opponent gets hazards up). Until that point you’re effectively playing 5v6. Pawmot has high power STAB moves and Fake Out is pretty rare right now so it does have some use outside Blessing.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Revival Blessing is nice but Pawmot outside of it is just fine. Revival Blessing can be awkward to use, as YoBuddy explained, and outside of Annihilape you’re usually best to add a better actual Pokemon instead rather than use Pawmot to get Revival Blessing.

Kingambit: 5 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: T4. Dark steel typing is really tough typing right now, losing to most of the top threats, except for Gholdengo. While it can Tera out of this typing and utilize its good bst, having to rely on Tera is tough. Just haven’t seen it perform much in games to justify t3.

JRL: Tier 4. he has great stats and is reliable vs tr teams. Defiant allows it to be much more threatening. Used in rain is how I see its greatest potential.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. I can see this even in tier 2 potentially right now. Very very solid mon that walls or just out-stats a lot of threats right now. Takes most hits incredibly well while 2HKOing or OHKOing a large number of mons in return. Also provides great pressure with defiant + sucker punch and functions as a good screen-breaking option.

SMB: tier 4 but I think it has the potential to go higher if it somehow can fit better on non tr teams, rn it feels pretty awkward to do that imo and using tera defensively on this to make it survive longer seems like a waste

YoBuddy: Tier 4. It is a really solid stat stick with some good abilities but has some weakness to common types that prevent it from dominating. There are also a million good dark types so you often have to stack typings when running this mon.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Super bulky with Assault Vest, and a great counter to one of the tier’s biggest threats in Gholdengo. 4x weakness to Fighting is the Achilles heel, and can be covered with Tera, but even most 2x super effective attacks can be survived, making it easy to trade positively with. Being a good Steel-type other than Gholdengo is also a big plus for it. I don’t think the Dark-type abundance argument applies much moreso to Kingambit than any other Dark-type, stacking a couple of Dark-types is pretty common and fine in this format. I was already going to vote for Tier 3 before the Annihilape ban but that just solidifies the raise even more.

Ting-Lu: 1 -> 2

votes

Actuarily: T2. While it’s a mammoth defensively, it can be quite passive and hazards aren’t quite as dominant as they were at the start of the generation.

JRL: Tier 2. He is a great support thanks to his ability in defensive teams and he is also capable of putting rocks + spikes, the downside is that he remains passive in battle.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Others explain it well, its been pretty much relegated to hazards + phazing. Hits decently hard but not hard enough to do offensive roles well. Still hard enough to provide a good amount of offensive pressure. Also walls things incredibly well and is a great pivot throughout the course of a game.

SMB: i voted this to tier 2 the last time and i think it has gotten a lot worse since then and my suspicions were right, great ability but doesn’t do too much apart from setting hazards, it is forced to take 1 or 2 hits every turn and trading that for a whirlwind + hazards dmg or stomping tantrum doing like 20% to its target, it’s good on the right teams but it is neither as splashable nor good per se to be in tier 2

YoBuddy: Tier 2. I thought this thing was going to be broken when I saw its stat spread and ability but it’s often just a hazard bot. Ground/Dark isn’t amazing as a defensive typing and while it will live almost every hit, it gets chipped far more easily than Melmetal last generation that had similar stats but a better defensive typing. It does its job well but not every team needs something to spam hazards and Glimmora is a good alternative as a hazard setter with more offensive presence.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Can be great on the right teams but far from something every team wants. Lacks the offensive output of the comparably statted Melmetal (or the countless resists from being a Steel-type), and is really slow, so has to stick to a bulky hazards role that means it isn’t splashable enough for Tier 1.

Scream Tail: 5 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: Tier 5. Has some value as a disruptive support mon but just has no offensive pressure.

JRL: Tier 4. good support as it has great speed and bulk. It can break screens, put rocks, t wave, encore. Can do work against any team

Nido-Rus: Tier 5. Need to see more use out of this. Right now it just feels like a bulky stat stick that has some support options, but nothing cohesive or threatening enough to justify this being picked over other options.

SMB: tier 5 i guess? I haven’t been impressed by it the games I’ve seen it, I haven’t used it and I still don’t know why would you use it except to run encore, disable, sr, screens or something like that on the same mon, which honestly doesn’t sound that good for the cost of sitting on the field doing no damage

YoBuddy: Tier 5. I’m a believer in this mon but right now it feels like it just has a heap of decent support options without having one distinct set/team composition that makes it a consistent threat. The game has been out long enough that I think it has to be tier 5 for now until it can consistently put in work.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. It’s a good support Pokemon, being quite fast and bulky with a number of support moves available, but it is passive. Doesn’t have enough of an established place to be Tier 3 though.

Arcanine: 2 -> 5

votes

Actuarily: T2. One of the best defensive pieces in the tier with intimidate, wisp, snarl, and healing. Definitely has bad matchups into rain/sand, but is one of the best mons into Sun. Is great into a lot of the top threats like Gholdengo, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Iron Hands, Armarouge, Torkoal, etc. Hazards being common means it almost has to run boots, even though it definitely wishes it could fit other items.

JRL: Tier 3. He has everything to support the team, wow + snarl, he can break screens and he can recover. It has very good bulk and does its job very well on defensive teams or with screens.

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Solid intimidate pivot, but not as good as it was earlier in the gen into the more sun-centric and hyper offensive teams. Struggles a little too much against hazards, rain, chien pao comps, and the recent surge of dragons clicking draco. Still solid for what it does, and the banded set provides another consistent valuable set for this mon.

SMB: Band set is tier 4, maybe 3, any other set is worse than that tier so…

YoBuddy: Tier 3. Intimidate might not be what it used to be but Arcanine can still provide a lot of utility for most matchups. I could definitely see this dropping in the future, particularly if people start using Fire Tauros for Raging Bull, fighting STAB and a dark resistance. Until then Arcanine is still the best Intimidate user and has a number of good matchups into the top threats that Actuarily mentioned.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Prone to ending up being passive, and its utility is not that useful, generally. It has a difficult time properly checking most physical attackers since they either hit it super effectively (Palafin, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk) or are immune to Intimidate (Inner Focus Dragonite, Defiant Kingambit). As a result, it can be difficult to land a Will-O-Wisp unless Arcanine is already on the field. Snarl, unlike Chi-Yu’s, does zero damage, so usually means you’re still getting outdamaged while using it. Rain is super sad for Arcanine, since Flare Blitz does no damage making it even more passive, meanwhile other Fire-types like Chi-Yu and Armarouge have another STAB to still be effective with. With Tauros-Paldea also starting to encroach on its Intimidate market share, an Arcanine drop is warranted.

Gyarados: 4 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: T4. Intimidate is nice, and it has solid defensive typing, but unfortunately Gyarados isn’t quite the set up sweeper it wants to be. While water/flying STABs are nice, it needs to tera flying to get flying attacks, and in practice it often can only pull off one ko. Defensive sets are its best use, but can be hard to fit.

JRL: Tier 4. intimidation with a set support can be both okay and annoying. The dd set has it harder to do work.

Nido-Rus: Tier 5. Gyarados liked the initial hyper offensive meta where it had a great typing to take hits and paralyze important threats. Now, though, it struggles both against the newer chien pao hyper offensive teams that can rip through gyarados’ low physical bulk, and the surge of bulkier teams that can just ignore gyarados, often leaving it relegated to just pivoting to soak a few hits.

SMB: Tier 5, dragon dance sets are bad and support sets are okish specially when the yellow magic does its thing, I’m not really impressed by this tbh

YoBuddy: Tier 5. It has a bunch of decent attributes and pairs well with Ting-Lu but it isn’t that good. Base 81 is an unfortunate speed tier, being slightly slower than Glimmora, Gholdengo and Great Tusk (granted you do beat Tusk anyway) and needing to run Jolly to be faster than Chien-Pao, Dragapult and Iron Bundle at +1 for Dragon Dance sets. The Intimidate set is better but faces stiff competition from Arcanine and Water/Fire Tauros. Breaking screens, Will-O-Wisp, Morning Sun and better speed tiers are better attributes than Thunder Wave, Taunt and Dragon Tail most of the time (Gyara’s better attack stat is coming off weaker STABs as well).

Yoda2798: Tier 5. This hasn’t gotten worse rather than better if anything, Dragon Dance isn’t too worth it and relies on Tera, Intimidate and utility is better found elsewhere. Arcanine is much better as an Intimidate option (even Tauros probably is as well, which can also be a Water-type), Palafin is much better as an offensive Water-type, and the role compression Gyarados provides is rarely wanted.

Dragapult: 3 -> 4

votes

Actuarily: T3. With Flutter Mane gone, Dragapult gets a lot better. It’s been seeing some play alongside Chien-Pao as two very fast offensive threats, and CB tera Dragon Dragon Darts are excellent at spreading around damage.

JRL: Tier 4. I think it has problems against most top pokes and needs a lot of support to work well. Falls short on many damages

Nido-Rus: Tier 3. Dragapult is amazing right now, especially with either chi yu or chien pao. The physical set is incredibly threatening with the added power making it a strong pivot. Meanwhile, chi yu provides that little bit of extra power that allows dragapult to take a ton of new OHKOs with specs draco, making it a lot more threatening.

SMB: tier 3, i think dd and band sets are pretty good and it has a typing that matches well vs the most common priority moves. I don’t have a strong opinion about special oriented sets, but the versatility is always nice

YoBuddy: Tier 4. Being the naturally fastest viable mon in the tier is nice but special sets are quite weak and physical sets have to work around its awkward movepool. Not to mention that the likes of Iron Bundle and Iron Jugulis can run Booster Energy to outspeed it.

Yoda2798: Tier 4. Isn’t at all seeing enough use for Tier 3 even without Flutter Mane, and when I’ve tried it has been pretty sad. Seems better on paper than it is in reality, physical still has awkward STAB moves and special still has damage problems against bulkier Pokemon. Speed-boosting Booster Energy Pokemon existing mean its Speed isn’t so valuable, it also faces competition from Choice Scarf Gholdengo which is also a fast Ghost-type but with a better spread move.

Iron Bundle: 3 -> 2

votes

Actuarily: T2. It’s bulk leaves a lot to be desired, but the speed tier and coverage offered by hydro pump + freeze dry is excellent. So many teams have like 3-4 Pokémon that this outspeeds and hits super effectively.

JRL: Tier 2. it has great speed with energy even though the sash set is very good. He has speed control and with chi yu his special power is very good.

Nido-Rus: Tier 2. Much like chi yu or flutter mane, I think it’s primarily the bulky sets that make this so threatening. It still accomplishes the same thing as more offensive sets of having an amazing speed tier, offensive coverage, and speed control option, but does so while functioning as a reliable pivot throughout the game.

SMB: tier 3, to me it feels like it always misses one of the bulk or the power, I’ve tried many sets with it; specs, av, leftovers encore, life orb… and neither convinced me. Being a mon with no ability in most games is also pretty bad.

YoBuddy: Tier 2. The combination of speed, coverage and solid support moves allow Iron Bundle to do lots of things. It can be tricky to play around until its set has been revealed. It is also the best Chi-Yu partner in the post Flutter Mane meta.

Yoda2798: Tier 2. Excellent Pokemon, amazing speed tier, and covers so much just between its stabs. Fast Icy Wind is great speed control, especially with Chi-Yu which it pairs with fantastically. Natural physical bulk lessens the ability of priority to subvert its Speed, while a bulky set with Assault Vest is surprisingly bulky in general. With multiple viable item choices like Life Orb, Booster Energy, and Focus Sash too Iron Bundle can find a place on many teams.

Iron Jugulis: 4 -> 3

votes

Actuarily: T4, overshadowed by Murkrow whose prankster tailwind is more desirable. While this can be much more offensive, relying on hurricane to hit outside of rain isn’t reliable.

JRL:Tier 3. it is a reliable tailwind and in rain it gets its full potential using hurricane.

Nido-Rus: Tier 4. Still limited to being run primarily on rain right now, and even there it’s good but certainly not necessary. Good and reliable hurricane option, but recently there’s been more competition for this slot with options like salamence or dragonite covering similar roles with other utility available.

SMB: I’m fine with either 5 or 4, depending on whether you consider it a must on rain i guess. Outside of it there are way better options for tailwind, and I still doubt i’d pick this over mence on rain teams

YoBuddy: Tier 3. A staple on rain and rain is tier 3 to me right now. However I’m not convinced of it outside rain. It has some decent coverage but picking between Air Slash and doing next to no damage or Hurricane and regularly doing no damage sucks.

Yoda2798: Tier 3. Agree with YoBuddy, being a staple on rain is enough to make it Tier 3 for me, not as good outside of rain though. See DWCOP games for performance on rain.

Low-Tier Sweep

Changes:
Tier 4->Tier 3
Tier 3->Tier 1
Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Tier 3 -> Tier 5
Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Tier 4 -> Tier 5
Tier 3 -> Tier 2
UR -> Tier 5
Tier 5 -> UR
Tier 5 -> UR
Tier 5 -> UR
Tier 5 -> UR
UR -> Tier 5
Tier 5 - UR
UR -> Tier 4
Tier 5 -> UR
UR -> Tier 5
Tier 5 -> UR
Tier 5 -> UR
Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Tier 4 -> Tier 5

The thread will be unlocked, and we welcome further nominations!

 

[Fangame10]

UR > 5
Not even voting on my Aboma nom smh
Ima just assume not enough about snow has been explored yet to vote.

It has seen sucess I swear, it has a 58% win rate in seasonal right now with at least 14 or so games !

...now granted 10 of those games are just my team of which 2 times it was other people using it... and i think mizuhime is the rest

Aurora Veil is broken and there are a lot of mons that work well under it such as Sword Dance/Belly Drum Iron Hands or Calm Mind Sylveon

Blizzard spam with a freeze chance is strong especially on Iron Bunlde and maybe Greninja potentially.

Aboma has nice coverage itself with earth power, energy ball and blizzard

Cetitan and Baxcalibur can be good also !

 

[Yoda2798]

We now have wonderful new art for the VR thread, made by Fangame10!

 

[SuckyLucky]

Tier 1->Tier 2

Compared to the other threats (and Amoong) in Tier 1 right now, I think Chien-Pao is undoubtedly the weakest. It doesn't get spread moves like Chi-yu and Gholdengo, and its STAB moves aren't as powerful as them, either. It gets Swords Dance, but it will likely never get the chance to use it due to the frailty it possesses. Due to this frailty, the most common thing run on it is Focus Sash, which is completely useless if any sort of hazards are up. It can almost never switch in safely either, so opportunities to take momentum with it often come at a cost. It gets bodied by common Pokémon like Ting-Lu, Arcanine (Which is even more threatening due to Intimidate + Will o Wisp), Iron Hands, Garganacl, and even tera Dragon DPult (Dragon Darts 123.5 - 146.1% v. Sucker Punch 57.7 - 68.1%). It can also be read by tera Ghost Chi-yu, who ignores Sacred Sword and melts it with any fire attacks, and Sucker Punch isn't even a Guaranteed OHKO against Gholdengo (252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 302-356 (95.8 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO). If tailwind is up for the opponent, it gets worse. Always loses to Chi-Yu, can lose to Banded DNite (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO), Roaring Moon, Volcarona, Garchomp, etc. This isn't to say that Chien-Pao isn't a bad Pokémon by any means, it is still a great threat in the meta and can OHKO plenty of Pokemon, but I think it just needs to much support and has too many bad matchups to really be Tier 1.

Tier 4 -> Tier 2/3.

I will die on this hill fighting that Hydreigon is still terribly underrated. It has enough move versatility and raw power to be either a great support Pokémon or a late game sweeper, or be a combination of both. It is one of three Pokémon in the tier to get both Tailwind + Taunt (Murkow and Roaring Moon), and can't be affected by Prankster while it is able to Taunt Murkow after it gets its first move off. It is a good counter to the new Tailwind + Haze Murkow and Tera Steel Make it Rain Gholdengo combination that I've seen some people run. Taunt also can deal with Amoonguss and all Follow Me and Trick Room setters (Assuming mental herb isn't being run).

In terms of raw power, there isn't much that can't be said about Hydreigon. Base 105 Atk and 125 Sp. Atk, and it can run Specs/Life Orb/Scarf. It even has enough attack to run Stone Edge or EQ if you want for coverage. If running Life Orb, it is able to OHKO a large amount of the metagame in one hit with Draco Meteor, such as Chi-Yu, DNite, Chien-Pao, Glimmora, Palafin, Garchomp, Iron Bundle, Murkrow, Pelipper, etc. With Choice Specs, that number gets even higher. Flash Cannon and Snarl are the best options to run right after Draco, for Faries and for support, and gets plenty of coverage moves like Focus Blast, Heat Wave, Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, etc.

In terms of weaknesses, Hydreigon has a lot of options. Tera Steel allows for the quad-weakness to Fairy to become a resist, as well as remove weakness to Dragon and Ice, and Levitate keeps the Ground Immunity, making it only weak to Fighting (Already weak to) and Fire. It also gives Flash Cannon that little extra boost to go from a possible 2HKO to a guaranteed OHKO on Sylveon, and go from a guaranteed 2HKO to a guaranteed OHKO on Hatterene.

It also doesn't like to stay out after launching Draco Meteor, and has issues with being rather frail for a support Pokémon, but it is base 90 Def and Sp. Def. Therefore, the best partners for Hydreigon are Amoonguss, who can keep Hydreigon alive with Pollen Puff or Clear Smog the Draco Meteor drop away, and redirect all moves that Hydreigon fear except Dazzling Gleam away from it. Ting-Lu/Arcanine are both good partners as well - Hydreigon can kill anything that threatens Ting-Lu, and it doesn't mind Vessel of Ruin if it's running enough physical coverage. Arcanine can Intimidate common physical counters to Hydreigon like Chien-Pao, Garchomp, and Tyranitar, and all of them fear Will o Wisp as well.

I prefer the mix between support and all out attacker, running Taunt/Tailwind/Draco/Flash Cannon. Hydreigon is either a very good support Pokemon that can deal out a lot of damage, or a very good Special Attacker that can run support or physical moves.

Tier 3 -> Tier 2

I know it was just demoted from Tier 2 to Tier 3, but I think it is too big of a change. Intimidate is great in this meta, and Arcanine is the premier runner of it, and the only common one as well. Safety Goggles allows it to sit on Amoonguss and focus on the other Pokémon on the field - which it can threaten with Snarl and Will o Wisp. It has Morning Sun to keep itself alive throughout the game, and there are very few clean ways to take it down, especially when Tera Water removes its weakness to EQ/EP/Rock Slide. Flare Blitz also provides a ton of damage on whatever it hits, and Wild Charge can be run for coverage at the cost of one of the support moves. It is similar to Hydreigon in that it can be a powerful Pokémon that runs support or a great support Pokémon that can dish a lot of damage, and the only difference is how you see it.

UR -> Tier 4/5

Pincurchin is the only mon in the metagame that can counter Psychic Terrain on switch in, which means it is also the only pokemon that gets Electric Terrain. I feel like this alone means it has an argument for Tier 3, as it means all Future Paradox Pokémon get the Quark Drive buff without the Booster Cell. It also means that things like Tera Normal Band Dragonite can spam ESpeed freely when Indeedee is on the other team. Pincurchin is also bulky enough that it can stand on its own in games, with moves like Wild Charge, Chilling Water, Liquidation, Poison Jab, Spikes + T Spikes, and even Sucker Punch which nullifies its major weakness of Speed. The poor speed means it runs as a threat of its own in TR, where Iron Hands already likes to be. It can run either Terrain Extender, to ensure the Quark Boost lasts, Electric Seed, for even more bulk, or even Air Ballon to ignore/swap into its only type weakness, and even swap in to teammate's EQuakes.

Tier 3 -> Tier 2

Almost forgot about this guy. Keeps stall alive in doubles by running Iron Defense, Recover, Body Press, and Tera Types that completely remove the weaknesses to things like Gholdengo that would otherwise melt it. Salt Cure gives it a good way to deal damage, esp. against all the Steel and Waters flying around. Purifying Salt helps against Gholdengo even more, as well as preventing status effects which makes it a problem for anyone who lets it sit around for too long (or doesn't run a Choice + Trick set), and it doesn't even need to set up Iron Defense to be a threat.

Other Minor Nominations I Thought Of:

Tier 5 -> Tier 3/4

Hatterene is the best TR setter IMO due to Magic Bounce (which is also good hazard prevention), and with Fake Out support + Focus Sash can 100% guarantee Trick Room goes up on Turn One, but can also threaten in Trick Room, due to high Sp. Atk and Calm Mind.

Tier 4 -> Tier 3

Kingambit can work in and out of TR due to Sucker Punch and Supreme Overlord, it runs Lum Berry/Safety Goggles which gives it a 1-Up on Amoonguss or other statuses. But in TR, it is one of the best late game sweepers. Tera typing helps it a lot against its strongest counters.

Tier 5 -> UR

Jumpluff really only has one gimmick, Strength Sap + Leech Seed + Substitute in Sun, but it isn't good. Tier 5 feels too high for a really weak Pokémon that has so many weaknesses that you can't even say it has a niche.

Tier 5 -> Tier 4

High speed, attack, and special attack, don't really see why it can't be higher as a solid mixed attacker (TBF I don't see it a lot so maybe I'm missing something).

Will probably do more nominations as time goes on

 

[GenOne]

UR -> Tier 5

Hariyama is almost always outclassed by Iron Hands. However, Species Clause does not prevent you from running both Hariyama and Iron Hands on the same team and Hariyama can duplicate most of what makes Iron Hands good while also cutting out its own niche as a Flame Orb + Guts attacker with access to Facade as well as Headlong Rush, a very rare and coveted single-target Ground-type move that more than compensates from Hariyama's lack of a STAB Electric-type move. I typically run Tera Normal for strong Fake Outs + Facades but there is room to explore other sets too I think.

I would nom Hariyama higher if Iron Hands wasn't in the picture, but as I said Iron Hands typically outclasses Hariyama so there is limited incentive to explore this mon further.

I will say though it has claimed multiple ssnl wins at this point, albeit only on modified versions of Frosty Fanroom.

And one last thing I will say is that Hariyama does have one FANTASTIC advantage over Iron Hands, and that is its matchup into Amoonguss. Amoonguss completely walls Iron Hands' that do not carry Ice Punch or Fire Punch, and it is prolific enough that many Iron Hands run Tera Grass to compensate. Hariyama's Guts + Flame Orb set provides natural Spore immunity, as well as strong coverage options in Facade and Headlong Rush that can deal big damage to Amoonguss.

 

[Mizuhime]

Tier 1->Tier 2

Compared to the other threats (and Amoong) in Tier 1 right now, I think Chien-Pao is undoubtedly the weakest. It doesn't get spread moves like Chi-yu and Gholdengo, and its STAB moves aren't as powerful as them, either. It gets Swords Dance, but it will likely never get the chance to use it due to the frailty it possesses. Due to this frailty, the most common thing run on it is Focus Sash, which is completely useless if any sort of hazards are up. It can almost never switch in safely either, so opportunities to take momentum with it often come at a cost. It gets bodied by common Pokémon like Ting-Lu, Arcanine (Which is even more threatening due to Intimidate + Will o Wisp), Iron Hands, Garganacl, and even tera Dragon DPult (Dragon Darts 123.5 - 146.1% v. Sucker Punch 57.7 - 68.1%). It can also be read by tera Ghost Chi-yu, who ignores Sacred Sword and melts it with any fire attacks, and Sucker Punch isn't even a Guaranteed OHKO against Gholdengo (252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 302-356 (95.8 - 113%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO). If tailwind is up for the opponent, it gets worse. Always loses to Chi-Yu, can lose to Banded DNite (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO), Roaring Moon, Volcarona, Garchomp, etc. This isn't to say that Chien-Pao isn't a bad Pokémon by any means, it is still a great threat in the meta and can OHKO plenty of Pokemon, but I think it just needs to much support and has too many bad matchups to really be Tier 1.

Chien-pao being tier 1 isn’t only because of the damage it does, or it’s matchup with X Pokémon. Cheems is tier 1 simply because of what it enables just simply by being on the field. Turns weaker Pokémon like pawmont into threats and Pokémon like Dragonite and Palain into extremely dangerous threats.

On its own cheems is extremely fast and hits hard enough to where most Pokémon will either be crippled or die to it before doing anything. It may be frail yes but it just enables so many things with its ability that any other tier than one doesn’t make much sense

 

[Teals]

New name finally, so hopefully this lessens confusion on who I am haha. I have been avoiding putting my thoughts out on the meta as I haven't had much time to play as I'd like. At this point though I think I'm comfortable sharing some thoughts. First off I'd like to share my own personal tierlist before I get into some serious noms.

The first thing I'd like to discuss is the current VR's Tier 5. I personally I think listing a lot of those mons as T5 is misleading. When I look at SS' VR a lot of the T5s I see are quite usable and have been used on a number of builds. However in SV, there are many pokemon that I feel are too niche, even for T5 and I feel they should drop to UR. Overall though I don't feel too strongly on what should drop and stuff.

The main reason I'm here is to nom this:

T2 -> T1

This is in my opinion, the best pokemon around right now. The bulk, combined with great offensive stats and offensive options make it incredibly easy to add to a team. It can act as a basic bulky attacker, with av fake out, or it can go ballistic and fire off a swords dance or even belly drum if you're feeling crazy. The biggest check to it is amoongus but even then you can opt to tera into grass type. Tera types make it a little awkward to say x mon beats y mon but generally speaking iron hands has a good matchup into most of the meta, especially with all the dark types going around.

With Home around the corner it feels a little bad making vr noms and I can see all of this changing drastically in the few months but I feel it was worth writing on this mon with how good it currently is.

 

[Noelle]

Nominations! I haven't really been tryharding SV, but I've still played a decent amount of games and these nominations shouldn't be too controversial anyway

-> Tier 1

I joke about this thing being legal Melmetal, but when you really think about it it's not too far from the truth:

As you can see, Iron Hands' stats really aren't much worse than Melmetal's, and it has several tools Melmetal would kill for, like Fake out and Drain Punch. This mon has very few bad matchups, and most of them can be worked around with coverage moves from it's deep movepool or Terastallization (very balanced gimmick btw :)) It's a great Fake Out user and pivot if using Volt Switch, but it also has 140 base Attack and will just start OHKOing things after it clicks Fake Out. It's typing is also extremely good in this meta. Electric/Fighting lets it hit both Dark-types in a meta where Dark-types are quite often stacked, and Water-types which are pretty hard to punish excessive usage of due to there being one (1) good offensive Grass-type and the Electric-types other than Iron Hands being... lackluster to say the least. It's not just a Fake Out pivot either, Swords Dance and Belly Drum sets are both extremely threatening and make good use of its wide coverage movepool. This mon is very dumb and can easily carry teams on it's own. It can not only support other broken win conditions like Nasty Plot Gholdengo, but it can also be its own broken win condition with Swords Dance.

-> Tier 4

Dragapult on paper is fine, being the naturally fastest relevant Pokemon in the tier, but this meta is not very kind to it. Pokemon generally want to allocate more defensive investment to SpDef rather than Def because of the plethora of broken special attackers in the tier, which Dragapult as a mainly special attacker doesn't particularly like. There's also an insane amount of Dark-types in the tier, most of which Dragapult has few ways to deal with on it's own. I don't think it's bad, I personally have been using it a lot on Murkrow offense teams, but it's definitely worse than most of tier 3 right now

-> Tier 4

I'm not as much as a Wo-Chien hater as i used to be, but it still kinda sucks. Grass/Dark is a pretty lackluster defensive typing, and while being a Grass-type is extremely valuable in this meta due to the innate Spore and Rage powder immunity as well as being able to hit Water-types for super effective damage, it still struggles to find teams where it thrives due to its competition with Amoonguss, which is easily the best Pokemon in the tier (at least top 2, you could argue Gholdengo is better because of how broken Nasty Plot is). Similarly to Dragapult, it has its uses on some teams (it's a particularly good Sylveon partner for example), it just fits better with pokemon like Maushold and Iron Jugulis (team specific but not bad)

->Tier 3

Meowscarada is really fucking good. I've said this like 3 times now, but Grass is a great offensive type with some good defensive attributes as well. Flower Trick is a broken move, guaranteed crits makes breaking pokemon like Garganacl easier, its one of the few pokemon with Knock Off which is an extremely spammable STAB attack, and it has a surprisingly deep movepool with Pollen Puff, Trick Room, Sucker Punch, Spikes, and more. Its typing kinda sucks defensively, but the Spore immunity is nice and Meowscarada is more of a glass cannon anyway. Though, funnily enough, it's bulk isnt actually bad, and you can run more bulky sets to live at least one big hit and fire back with big damage:

no thoughts, just meow meow

Meowscarada @ Choice Band
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 232 HP / 108 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 160 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Low Kick
- U-turn

This spread for example allows it to live Iron Bundle's Freeze Dry, outspeed Maushold and OHKO Dragonite with Low Kick after Terastallization. To me Meowscarada is easily on the level of stuff like Garganacl and Arcanine and deserves tier 3

, and -> UR

little to no use in recent tournaments, and they just suck, nuke tier 5

That's pretty much everything I wanted to talk about, I think the rest of the VR is fine. I think Iron Moth should be tier 5, Booster Energy Acid Spray is very good, but it hasn't been used in any tournaments and the community consensus seems to be that moth is shit, so UR is fine.

 

[GenOne]

-> Tier 1

This is a nom that Teals and NotlPrimRose already made but I want to single it out from the rest of the noms in their posts since I think it's an important one.

I don't think you can really ever go wrong by including Iron Hands on your team as it compresses so much value into one teamslot with very little consequence or drawbacks:

• It's the second-bulkiest mon in the tier after Ting Lu, and basically can never be OHKO'd other than by a few of the strongest super-effective hitters like Great Tusk
• It has the second-highest Attack in the tier after Palafin-Hero, with access to good STAB attacks and un-resisted Fighting / Electric STAB coverage
• It provides highly coveted Fake Out utility

The only real drawbacks are that Iron Hands is slow and it gets walled by Amoonguss, but those are both easily addressable with the remaining 5 team slots in your teambuilder.

Overall I think Iron Hands is one of the most splashable mons in the metagame and deserving of Tier 1 status.

 

[Penter]

->t2
Chi-yu is definitely one of the better spread attackers and will sweep under the right circumstances but i think its enabling power is limited due to needing speed support, in addition to its weakness to priority. rain being common also makes it a bit harder to fit on some teams, even if still manageable. I think it's comparable to bundle and tusk (as each does their jobs well but need the right teammates) moreso than amoongus/hands/pao. It does still feel really strong especially on ladder, but not quite on the level of the others.

->t1
i dont have anything to add that hasn't been said already but def too good for t2

 

[Actuarily]

We’re about to complete another VR slate, so consider this a last call for nominations! Will start the slate after the weekend.