Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1101))

[Carl The Turtle]

Nominating to B/B-
Anyone who ladders frequently is probably aware of this, but a Keldeo team has been rising to popularity and seeing good results throughout ladder as well as occasional tournament use. This set, consisting of Vac/Surf/Flip/fighting stab of choice has proven to be effective in carving out a niche for keldeo, utilizing its unique defensive typing, access to flip turn, and its decent special attack and speed speed in order to have it function, unexpectedly, as a pivot that can be difficult to switch into, in tandem with it's access to STAB priority in Vacuum Wave to make it a solid revenger as well if need be. It's obviously still a somewhat flawed mon, being mediocre into , , and , but I feel as though a rise is warranted given its drastic improvement in performance.

 

[ausma]

you should take it off the vr, NOW

I actually think Necrozma has a stronger case to stay on the VR compared to Pokemon like Azumarill. There are a couple of sets that make it worth the salt: Dragon Dance and Stealth Rock + Meteor Beam sets.

While the former is a bit committal, it can be incredibly lethal with the right support. Photon Geyser ignores Unaware which is a really big caveat for a setup sweeper, and it has Prism Armor, options like Morning Sun to let it get a few boosts, and good coverage (EQ, X-Scissor, Tera Blast) to leverage setup further.

Stealth Rock + Meteor Beam sets are probably the most commonly seen Necrozma variants, and as a Stealth Rock setter it forces insanely potent trades while pressuring removal options like Great Tusk. You have to build around it a bit, but it is definitely worth the salt since it compresses hazards with a solid wallbreaking profile in a fell swoop.

Let's not take it off the VR, NOW!!!!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I actually think Necrozma has a stronger case to stay on the VR compared to Pokemon like Azumarill. There are a couple of sets that make it worth the salt: Dragon Dance and Stealth Rock + Meteor Beam sets.

While the former is a bit committal, it can be incredibly lethal with the right support. Photon Geyser ignores Unaware which is a really big caveat for a setup sweeper, and it has Prism Armor, options like Morning Sun to let it get a few boosts, and good coverage (EQ, X-Scissor, Tera Blast) to leverage setup further.

Stealth Rock + Meteor Beam sets are probably the most commonly seen Necrozma variants, and as a Stealth Rock setter it forces insanely potent trades while pressuring removal options like Great Tusk. You have to build around it a bit, but it is definitely worth the salt since it compresses hazards with a solid wallbreaking profile in a fell swoop.

Let's not take it off the VR, NOW!!!!

in retrospect i uh kinda forgot that photon geyser could do the tera blast category switching thing so i admit that dd does perform a function that can't be done by dd mew. but i really can't think of any instances i've had where i'm looking at a team and thinking "i need rocks and breaking power in the same slot and i also need to pressure removal options x y and z" and then choosing to put anything besides glimmora there. maybe that's just me being closed-minded but i'm gonna have to break with you on this one

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Nominating D -> UR

I'll be blunt, there is just no way you can run Suicune so long as Ogerpon-Wellspring is a central metagame piece. Suicune is useless against 16% of teams in the metagame (17% if you add volcanion usage lol) because it relies on mono-scald for damage, and Ogerpon-Wellspring has Water Absorb negating that. Even outside of Ogerpon-Wellspring this Pokemon struggles as Encore and taunt are decently prevalent in the metagame. Pokemon like Dragonite, Primarina, Iron Valiant, and Samurott-Hisui can just swap in on a Calm Mind/Protect turn and render the setup useless. Even in slower cases like Primarina, locking a Suicune into Scald can be abusable via wasting Scald PP which is a big issue since it's Suicune's only attack. There's also a few prominent Roar/Whirlwind users in the tier like Zamazenta, Moltres, and Ting-Lu the latter of the 2 who can tera out of the scald weakness.

Another big issue that may be even larger than Ogerpon-Wellspring is hazards. Since Suicune relies on Leftovers recovery to work and can't use Heavy Duty Boots, getting up Spikes and especially Toxic Spikes can render it's setup capability useless. Suicune needs all the HP it can get due to a lack of reliable recovery, so taking Stealth Rocks and 1 Spike is a big deal for it. Knowing this Suicune will then need a lot of support via hazard removal, which is not good since over emphasizing on removal for a Pokemon that can be walled by a 16% used Pokemon is pretty troll. It also dosn't help that the most popular playstyles right now of SD Gliscor hazard stack balance, and Hyper Offense spam Spikes + Stealth Rocks!

So ok let's say Suicune is in a matchup that doesn't have hazard stack, or Toxic Spikes, or Ogerpon-Wellspring, or Encore, or phasing moves how will it do? Well the difficulty is who does it set up on, and to that I say nothing really! It can substitute on Clefable, Iron Moth, Corviknight, non-Curse Garganacl (accounting for tera on it too), and Alomomola which doesn't really count since it can Flip Turn into something that beats Suicune. I am being generous here by listing Alomomola, this thing sets up safely on next to nothing in the tier. I seriously implore you to take a look at the list of OU Pokemon and tell me who Suicune can use as setup fodder.

So this thing is walled by 1 of the best Pokemon in the game, ruined by common utility options, needs hazards off to even have a chance, and can only setup against 5-ish Pokemon in the tier, and even then the legitimacy of mono-Scald working offensively in SV OU is sketchy? I feel like this isn't even a 'niche pick' it's just plain not viable in the current landscape of SV OU.

EDIT: I just checked usage stats of Suicune, and I saw Jolteon above Suicune in usage, I just wanted to let everyone know this fun fact.
EDIT 2: I forgot to mention Hydrapple but I doubt I have to...

 

[Finchinator]

Everyone thought Suicune with Tera would be uniquely annoying and viable, but it’s been a complete flop. Agreeing with the above UR nomination.

 

[Ehmcee]

Nominating D -> UR

I'll be blunt, there is just no way you can run Suicune so long as Ogerpon-Wellspring is a central metagame piece. Suicune is useless against 16% of teams in the metagame (17% if you add volcanion usage lol) because it relies on mono-scald for damage, and Ogerpon-Wellspring has Water Absorb negating that. Even outside of Ogerpon-Wellspring this Pokemon struggles as Encore and taunt are decently prevalent in the metagame. Pokemon like Dragonite, Primarina, Iron Valiant, and Samurott-Hisui can just swap in on a Calm Mind/Protect turn and render the setup useless. Even in slower cases like Primarina, locking a Suicune into Scald can be abusable via wasting Scald PP which is a big issue since it's Suicune's only attack. There's also a few prominent Roar/Whirlwind users in the tier like Zamazenta, Moltres, and Ting-Lu the latter of the 2 who can tera out of the scald weakness.

Another big issue that may be even larger than Ogerpon-Wellspring is hazards. Since Suicune relies on Leftovers recovery to work and can't use Heavy Duty Boots, getting up Spikes and especially Toxic Spikes can render it's setup capability useless. Suicune needs all the HP it can get due to a lack of reliable recovery, so taking Stealth Rocks and 1 Spike is a big deal for it. Knowing this Suicune will then need a lot of support via hazard removal, which is not good since over emphasizing on removal for a Pokemon that can be walled by a 16% used Pokemon is pretty troll. It also dosn't help that the most popular playstyles right now of SD Gliscor hazard stack balance, and Hyper Offense spam Spikes + Stealth Rocks!

So ok let's say Suicune is in a matchup that doesn't have hazard stack, or Toxic Spikes, or Ogerpon-Wellspring, or Encore, or phasing moves how will it do? Well the difficulty is who does it set up on, and to that I say nothing really! It can substitute on Clefable, Iron Moth, Corviknight, non-Curse Garganacl (accounting for tera on it too), and Alomomola which doesn't really count since it can Flip Turn into something that beats Suicune. I am being generous here by listing Alomomola, this thing sets up safely on next to nothing in the tier. I seriously implore you to take a look at the list of OU Pokemon and tell me who Suicune can use as setup fodder.

So this thing is walled by 1 of the best Pokemon in the game, ruined by common utility options, needs hazards off to even have a chance, and can only setup against 5-ish Pokemon in the tier, and even then the legitimacy of mono-Scald working offensively in SV OU is sketchy? I feel like this isn't even a 'niche pick' it's just plain not viable in the current landscape of SV OU.

EDIT: I just checked usage stats of Suicune, and I saw Jolteon above Suicune in usage, I just wanted to let everyone know this fun fact.
EDIT 2: I forgot to mention Hydrapple but I doubt I have to...

Personally disagree with this as someone that's been trying out Suicune for a good while.
One of Suicune's biggest stopgaps: Kyurem was just removed. While it obviously does lose to Ogerpon-W, that mon faces similar issues to Suicune in it being weak to hazards, meaning it can get worn down due to it being constrained to HO/BO, while Suicune teams can afford to be more removal-heavy due to it pretty much being forced onto Semi-Stall.

Encore's effects are heavily overblown here, similar to the way Kyurem could cheese through getting Encore'd, a turn 1 Protect against Encore into gettting Encored into it wastes half of Encore's pp, if Suicune is already behind a sub, the opponent doesn't even get a chance to hit it for damage due to it being able to protect again next turn.

The list of Pokemon Suicune can sub against is incredibly smaller than it is in actuality, Suicune can find many opportunities against Slowking-Galar, slower Gliscor (after scouting speed), Gholdengo (highly recommend max speed suicune for this reason), Hatterene, Skarmory, Torkoal, Pelipper, Heatran, Blissey and Toxapex, while Alomomola definitely counts due to Suicune being safely behind a sub, now gaining passive recovery.

Additionally recommend Tera Dark, incredibly useful in CM wars against Stored Power or Psyshock Pokemon, as well as blanking Future Sight from Gking, not to mention being immune to Psychic Noise, which bypasses sub and ruins our recovery. Pairing with Lunar Dance Cresselia also allows you to double it's PP-Stalling amount.

Suicune is no longer a "Setup and win on the spot" mon, and some might consider that useless in this meta. Suicune however eats BO's and Stall's alive. The combination of being able to sit on the field, wasting opponent's PP and spreading burns across the enemy team is a niche that at least deserves a D in my opinion.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

While it obviously does lose to Ogerpon-W, that mon faces similar issues to Suicune in it being weak to hazards, meaning it can get worn down due to it being constrained to HO/BO, while Suicune teams can afford to be more removal-heavy due to it pretty much being forced onto Semi-Stall.

Ogerpon-Wellsprings weakness to hazards is semi mitigated by it being offensively pressuring making it so the opponent can't freely get turns to get up hazards in the first place. Also semi-stall cannot run Suicune I am very confused by this statement. For one Semi-Stall kind of doesn't exist because Hard Stall or fat Balance just hard outclasses Semi-Stall in SV OU. This is because very defensive teams are already super pressed for slots, it's not really possible to make a Semi-Stall thats good into majority of the metagame because you cannot fit a progress maker without losing to several Pokemon. Hard Stall as is already loses to several Pokemon, and for semi-stall that amount goes up drastically due to the 1-2 progress maker on the team as they can't offensively handle most of the stall threats usually. The playstyle is already pretty much bad, and putting a Suicune on it, a Pokemon that loses to stalls biggest issue just doesn't make sense. Granted I don't think Suicune works on any playstyle but Semi-Stall is likely the absolute worst team it could be used on besides like HO/Sun which is cheating.

a turn 1 Protect against Encore into gettting Encored into it wastes half of Encore's pp, if Suicune is already behind a sub, the opponent doesn't even get a chance to hit it for damage due to it being able to protect again next turn.

1. You can time encore's to catch Substitute or Calm Mind turns assuming max speed per your set since you'll outspeed and risk 50/50's on being locked into Substitute or Calm Mind or Scald. This also means to be locked into Protect you'd have to spam Protect prior which it can fail after consecutive uses, you can very easily predict a double protect trying to catch slow Encore and break the Substitutes (Samurott-Hisui does this especially well). Also Primarina / Dragonite / Iron Valiant all setup after locking Suicune into Protect so I mean they don't really care if you spam Protect they just CM/DD to +6.
2. The second part is incorrect, in testing there is 1 free turn to break the substitute unless you get a triple Protect on slow encore or Double Protect on fast encore (Iron valiant, although double protect doesnt matter too much since it just CM's/SD's instead).

The list of Pokemon Suicune can sub against is incredibly smaller than it is in actuality, Suicune can find many opportunities against Slowking-Galar, slower Gliscor (after scouting speed), Gholdengo (highly recommend max speed suicune for this reason), Hatterene, Skarmory, Torkoal, Pelipper, Heatran, Blissey and Toxapex, while Alomomola definitely counts due to Suicune being safely behind a sub, now gaining passive recovery.

Slowking-Galar clicks Chilly Reception and goes into the mon that beats Suicune which basically every team naturally does, against defensive Gliscor if you're using max speed Suicune sure but most Gliscor at this point are using fast Swords Dance Facade variants which you aren't winning against. Gholdengo true yeah. Hatterene this isn't true, Calm Mind sets will win vs Suicune whether its Stored Power or Psychic Noise or Psyshock for psychic stab. You mention that Suicune just tera dark's, which then you just lose to Draining Kiss instead so I mean ok, also same applies to CM Primarina. Skarmory Torkoal Pelipper Heatran Blissey sure but these are not OU Pokemon anyways, I am sure Suicune can set up on tons of niche pick UU Pokemon. Toxapex I don't know why you list this, that's like the 2nd best Suicune answers in the game besides Ogerpon-Wellspring. If you're wondering why I didn't list it, its because Toxapex is a pretty niche UU pick but if we are going to niche picks in UU sure I can talk about Toxapex. Haze is a field effect move, it's not punished by Pressure so you can always out Haze the Calm Mind's in the PP war. Alomomola same thing with Slowking-Galar, teams naturally beat Suicune in current metagame of OU it's not much of an ask to Chilly Reception out into your Calm Mind Primarina for example. Also Slowking-Galar forcing Suicune's tera via Psychic Noise and being able to just swap out is not great. After going through this list the only central metagame OU Pokemon that are noteworthy are Gholdengo and bulky Gliscor sets which aren't the best sets atm in high ladder or tournament.

Pairing with Lunar Dance Cresselia also allows you to double it's PP-Stalling amount.

Suicune is no longer a "Setup and win on the spot" mon, and some might consider that useless in this meta. Suicune however eats BO's and Stall's alive. The combination of being able to sit on the field, wasting opponent's PP and spreading burns across the enemy team is a niche that at least deserves a D in my opinion.

I already explained how a lot of Psychic Noise/Psyshock users beat Tera Dark anyways, but the Cresselia part is interesting. How you are you building viable Semi-Stall with a defensive anchor of Suicune and Cresselia for the progress maker slots. Also to clarify I bring up progress maker slots because the point of Semi-Stall is to have a very powerful defensive anchor of 4-5 Pokemon with 1 or 2 designated progress maker slots. Anyays those two don't offer enough valuable offensive or defensive uses for the remaining 4 slots to make the team good defensively, assuming it's semi stall and not a weird balance. Hard stall as is has too many threats to be used reliably in the current metagame, last week I literally built with Showdownfail + help with light dn for 5 hours trying to make a hard stall and that ultimately ended up being fruitless. I would like an explanation of this because I don't see how that is physically possible, nor have these team structures been seen anywhere near the high level play, let alone top level.

Anyways as for the bottom, no Hard Stall doesn't lose to Suicune there's Toxapex and hazards, or just Dondozo/Clodsire + Blissey PP stalling Suicune anyways. Bulky Offense definitely does not lose as those Samurott-Hisui, or Hydrapple, or SD Gliscor, or Ogerpon-Wellspring, or regular Ogerpon teams just eat it alive. Forgot about Dnite and Prim CM/Encore too but you get the idea at this point.

 

[Eeveeto]

Personally I wouldn,t unrank Suicune, since I can see some potential with Restalk sets, both with CM or just Restalk + Roar. Lets be real though, this mon with Sub + CM is not sweeping vs 90% of the teams. Needs too many Mons to be removed and is totally screwed by Knock Off and ANY Status (yes, para and burn too). The Mon is terrible and the only niche it has is being a pure Water with Pressure + Scald. I think its enough to let it ranked, but lets not pretend its a competent sweeper, because its very far from it. Quaquaval is the only current D rank Mon that I consider to be worse than Suicune.

 

[ant4456]

I think Necrozma is pretty outclassed but I think it's something usable. It comes down to your values on the VR: Splashability, niche, or in-a-vacuum strength.

You can say Bellossom has had more success, but in a vacuum it is 100% worse than Necrozma, Necrozma has niches, it has better traits than a lot of Pokemon, and if I saw it on a team I would have to respect it. But it is undeniable that it's outclassed by many things on different sets. But I think that's fine for a C Rank VR mon.

I agree with Ausma that frankly something like Azumarill I'd prefer to see a drop instead. I think Azumarill is a Pokemon that always feels like it's in the right meta for it to start putting in work, but I just don't think a setup sweeper that tanks 50% of its health and is slow has a place in tiers as fast as SV OU. Compared to even the likes of other slower Water Physical wallbreakers such as Crawdaunt, Crawdaunt takes 0 turns of setup in order to do great damage, and Swords Dance is more reliable. Fairy-Type is nice but we have Pokemon like Primarina with almost the exact same defensive profile (only difference is stat spread) that also makes better use of its free turns with more consistent setup options alongside just straight up Blasting against flimsier cores. I'm not an AV believe either, hazard weak + no setup + still slow as shit (Huge Power Aqua Jet with no setup is not worth it!!!), etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Priority is nice but 40 BP is kinda hard to rely on, especially with Pokemon like Ogerpon which directly stops it in its tracks, the many Dragons, opposing priority, etc. I think this mon is way more ass than Necky, and I think Necky deserves to stay as much if not more. At least Necrozma can do the job you're putting it on the team for, it's just that there are plenty of Pokemon that do the job that compete with it, often out-competing. But genuinely I think a Pokemon like Azumarill almost never gets the job done from what I've seen or played.

This isn't saying Azumarill needs a drop, I mean it's not worthless and it can do its job (sometimes) (depending on matchup), but to defend My Guy Necrozma.

 

[Eeveeto]

Regarding Azumarill, Belly Drum sweeper in a Waterpon and Dondozo meta is extremely unreliable. However, Band with some para support and good prediction, is actually decent:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 310-366 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 175-207 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wouldn,t unrank this Mon at all and would use it any day before Necrozma or Suicune.

 

[1LDK]

If you guys wanna unrank some mons, lets look at the list

d ranks and unranks

Arcanine-Hisui: should stay, It's kinda decent when neither tusk nor donzo are around

Bellibolt: should stay, I haven't used bellibolt ever, but I once saw one wall my choice specs valiant and that's enough reason for me to keep it here

Cyclizar: should drop, it's a stall exclusive mon but at that point, you can do one of the following
a) use talonflame
b) use corv with defog, since its stall you have clodsire + blissey and you wait 500 turns to pp stall the gholdengo then it's free defog, and if the gholdengo is psyshock you were gonna lose the game anyway
c) do what everyone does and make boots spam with like 2-3 knock absorbers

Deoxys-Defense: should drop, I was considering this in sand as a roar zama check during world cup, and I guess having teleport is cool, but come on, no one uses this thing ever

Hippowdon: im biased for this mon so no opinion

Hydreigon: no idea

Indeedee: should stay, I know psyspam is ass with samu-h, sand and kingambit, but it's still cheesy enough to pull it out, barely tho, I'm not very enthusiastic about this one

Iron Jugulis: should drop, bro this thing is ass, who though this thing breaks stall? none of your attacks do anything, taunt is not gonna save you lil bro lmaooo piss weak ugly ass motherfucking bitch mon

Jirachi: im gonna come back to this thing in a second

Kingdra: should stay, rain in general is terrible but this thing still hits hard

Kommo-o: should stay, it's getting usage in SCL as an unpredictable sweeper

Muk: no idea

Pincurchin: drop, electric terrain lmao

Polteageist: see indeede

Quagsire: should stay. I have never used the quagsire stall but it topped ladder + this thing has better recover + movepool than donzo while donzo walls stuff harder, i feel its a fun sidegrade

Quaquaval: drop it, I only know 1 person that actually loses to this on the daily, if you have any of the following: corv, garg, donzo, ogerpon-w, raging bolt, gholdengo, zamazenta, volcanion, chesnaught, rillaboom, clefable, moltres (with tera), dragapult, great tusk (tera), lando-t (tera) and alomomola, you win its overrated af

Suicune: agree with shaymin sky in dropping it, the only good thing about this never being good is that if ogerpon-w gets banned, this thing will become triple S+ with crocune looking ass sets

Talonflame: should stay, the best user of defog in the entire game, that alone gives him a niche forever

Wo-Chien: should drop, I haven't seen this thing in forever, what does it even tho


also, this is the part of the post where I talk about how should drop to UR because of how bad it is

I also have some noms to do, mostly drops

Raises:

from D to C

Hear me out

This is a Tinkaton side grade to me, you trade access to knock off and better typing (aka, you now lose to darkrai) but you gain a better movepool + speed, this thing still has encore, has wish, and most importantly, U-turn, and can do similar annoying tinkaton stuff like spamming twave or supporting with rocks. tinkaton is still probably better in most cores, but it's not a 100% upgrade

also not a raise but don't drop use dd + lum berry, that's the good set


Drops:

to A and to A-

For the same reason tbh, they are mad inconsistent, I really don't care about the "side benefits" since failing the main benefit for both more often than not means death. In samus case, ceaseless falling once means not spikes pressure, sure you can spam knock and has some other tools, but half of them get blocked by oger and the other half by fairys, and chipping this thing down is not the hardest thing of the planet. I gonna be more forgiving on samu since samu can essentially put any item he wants and still work, boots, av, sash, scarf, lum, pads, if your crazy enough, you can even get wide lens to specifically nail ceases more, which is not a bad idea

On moth, I'm just gonna copy and paste what I said about this last time

from A to A-

Not only that, but I believe it should be hard stuck there forever, my main reasoning is that moth is peak gambling mindset, we all like to joke and laugh about how "99% OF IRON MOTH USERS QUIT BEFORE GETTING A FIERY DANCE BOOST, NEVER STOP GAMBLING" and despite having multiple teras, you have one on the battle, and you can't 1v1 every single mon out there, unless you have ghost dnite will always check you, and even if you have ghost then now kingambit gets you, ground makes you rilla food, fairy gets you smacked by poisons or steels, dark seems cool but zama can take a hit

+1 132 SpA Tera Dark Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 201-237 (51.8 - 61%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Tera Dark Iron Moth: 398-470 (132.2 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and heres the thing, none of this even matters if you don't get the +1 boost from fiery dance, it is 50%, but it sure doesn't feel like it most of the time. Don't get me wrong, when moth gets +2 + booster, IT'S BROKEN and easily laughs at the entire tier barring stall, but it's too dependent on it. It's too luck reliant for its own good, which is why I would never put this anywhere but A-

from B+ to B

Moltres + Zapdos are raising in popularity, and its damage output gets worse when you're afraid of fucking up even once. I don't think it's neceserally bad, but it's more of a support mon nowadays, there's still merit in boosting all the ogerpons and hydrapple

from B to B-

This thing can do one thing right and that is vaporizing double regen balance, and it's literally dead weight in every other matchup

from B to C-

Like I have said a million times, better to have a bird in hand than 100 fucking your house, meow has 1000 small niches that are better done by literally anything else, and before anyone asks, it needs tera electric to break zapkinglu cores and then it loses to moltres, wow, also gliscor can just tera and send her packing, come on people, this thing is a noob trap

from B to C

Ugly, weak to all priority, weak to lando, and you still need support from your team to break through zama even with zen headbutt

 

[Dreadfury]

I nominate to A+ because that's exactly where it was when it got banned and it's back in a little bit lmao

Now, from there, I'd like to nominate from A+ --> S-. This was a pretty popular nom prior to its ban and now that it's unbanned I'd just like to quickly refresh everyone's memory with just how much set diversity this mon had, with SubTect being the new craze leading up to its suspect test, Sub+3A being nasty, Specs still being devastating to go up against, and its many DD variations making even a largely scouted Kyurem a huge guessing game. What you'd expect was a Specs Kyurem could Substitute up and would probably beat you on the spot and you'd still have no idea what set it was running at that point.

Welcome back, bozo!

 

[BolTingBlazie]

yep, just did. thanks!

Unfortunately poorly aged statement, get it back on there

 

[ShizuOsaka]

yep, just did. thanks!

How sad...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

from UR to D

Frosmoth is a surprisingly good bulky set up sweeper in the current metagame and I can only see it getting better with the reintroduction of Kyurem into OU. It's Ice Scales Ability let's it reliably take neutral hits on the special side and after a few Quiver Dances, it becomes almost impossible to take it down even with super effective special attacks.

Depending on the Tera it runs, it can reliably set up on many Special attackers including Raging Bolt, GlowKing, Iron Crown, and Zapdos to name a few.

With a positive speed Nature and max speed investment, it hits 251 speed which jumps to 376 after a speed boost from Quiver Dance. This allows it to outrun threats such as Cinderace, Serperior, Wellspring Ogerpon and Latios/ Latias as well as non Speed boosted versions of Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon and Walking Wake.

However, although I do feel this mon deserves a spot on the Viability Rankings, I don't see it going much higher than D tier at the moment do to its terrible defensive typing which makes it 4x weak to Stealth Rock as well as being vulnerable to all other Entry Hazards, limited special move pool and over reliance on not only Terastilization but Tera Blast as well.

 

[Magcargo]

I nominate to A+ because that's exactly where it was when it got banned and it's back in a little bit lmao

Now, from there, I'd like to nominate from A+ --> S-. This was a pretty popular nom prior to its ban and now that it's unbanned I'd just like to quickly refresh everyone's memory with just how much set diversity this mon had, with SubTect being the new craze leading up to its suspect test, Sub+3A being nasty, Specs still being devastating to go up against, and its many DD variations making even a largely scouted Kyurem a huge guessing game. What you'd expect was a Specs Kyurem could Substitute up and would probably beat you on the spot and you'd still have no idea what set it was running at that point.

Welcome back, bozo!

Nah, this Pokemon requires too much support to be S- Rank. I'd argue every Pokemon in S- and even most of the Pokemon in A+ Rank are easier to fit onto the average OU team. Most of them can be slapped onto a team with little issue while Kyurem requires very specific support between entry hazard removal, veil, chilly reception + U-turn support, etc. and can still be bottlenecked by its awkward MUs against the high tier Pokemon like Kingambit, Zamazenta, and Gholdengo.

 

[Moisture99]

Nah, this Pokemon requires too much support to be S- Rank. I'd argue every Pokemon in S- and even most of the Pokemon in A+ Rank are easier to fit onto the average OU team. Most of them can be slapped onto a team with little issue while Kyurem requires very specific support between entry hazard removal, veil, chilly reception + U-turn support, etc. and can still be bottlenecked by its awkward MUs against the high tier Pokemon like Kingambit, Zamazenta, and Gholdengo.

Agree, I also think its set variety is a bit overstated. Imo the most viable sets are like Loaded Dice Mixed and NMI Mixed, then Physical DD and SubTect (with a gap between last and first two).

Imo Specs is just bad and makes you prediction reliant for no reason while still not breaking as quickly enough to compensate for some of the worst longevity ever. Boots is probably the easiest to fit on a team but it's really not that good at breaking without a boost or going mixed.

Should stay in A+

 

[viivian]

gonna make a few noms in the wake of some huge metagame shifts, i'll keep this one short

UR -> A+

needs no explanation, kyurem is back in the tier and it's back to doing the same shit it did before its tempban. i can see an argument for bumping it up to S- but that tier is kinda bloated as is and it's still too early for me to say if kyurem should rise or drop

/ B+ -> A-

two radically different mons in terms of playstyle but both are deserving of a rise. even with kyurem's unban, hydrapple remains as an amazing balance breaker that can leverage its bulk and longevity to use pokemon like garganacl and ting-lu as entry points to set up and start punching holes through teams. it makes great use of tera to easily force trades w/ pokemon like kyurem, roaring moon, iron valiant, etc. but its base typing is also incredibly valuable against the likes of ogerpon. conversely, corviknight can blanket check or counter many of the key meta threats rn; kingambit, great tusk, lando-T, dragonite, gliscor, iron valiant, samurott-H, enamorus, hydrapple are all checked by the bird to a certain degree. it particularly tends to shine on teams carrying additional hazard control in the form of cinderace or great tusk, both of whom let it overcome its inability to defog on hazard stacking teams carrying gholdengo. both are a bit reliant on team support to function but i think they deserve to be in the A ranks

B -> B-

i'm probably being harsh here but what does this even do? meowscarada's stat spread is extremely awkward in the context of this tier, its attack stat is average at best without a choice band, its speed stat isn't anywhere near good enough without a choice scarf, and if it relies on a choice item to circumvent these issues then defensive teams can scout and switch around it easily while chipping it down with hazards. meowscarada is imo hard to justify being used as a fatbreaker when other grasses like ogerpon and hydrapple are generally superior in that role, and it's rather underwhelming as a speed control mon when it misses out on the 125 benchmark without having any good priority moves to compensate for it. genuinely shocked it didn't drop to UU by now, because for an OU pokemon it's quite disappointing

 

[1LDK]

UR -> A+

needs no explanation, kyurem is back in the tier and it's back to doing the same shit it did before its tempban. i can see an argument for bumping it up to S- but that tier is kinda bloated as is and it's still too early for me to say if kyurem should rise or drop

/ B+ -> A- omg bruh oh hell naw wtf man who invited this kid

No kyurem was what made apple good, it has no business being A- with kyurem back, you are going to be forced out everytime by this, plus, with kyurem in the tier again, ogerpon-w has to run play rough again for it, nerfing even further, with no kyurem in the tier, ogerpon-w could run knock off to help vs the sinistcha matchup, but now this mon is more important. And to top it all off, HO is gonna be more prevalent in order to not give this thing more turns, which in return makes apple worse because it's an encore magnet, Apple is a balance vaporizer, not an antioffense mon, we can bump it up again once he leaves the tier

edit: some people have been asking where's the corv slander, it came with the apple slander

Speaking of grass types

from A- to B+

Kyurem is back in the tier

from B+ to B

I asked for this to drop even with no kyurem (kyurem shits on rila and uses terrain as free healing), Kyurem is back in the tier, and even with no kyurem, this thing was getting devoured by zapdos + moltres

B -> B-

i'm probably being harsh here

no you're not, in fact you're being kind, drop it further

 

[TheDuckChris]

Couple small noms after watching recent tours
Drop After some shifts to enable fatter balances and continuing strong usage from things like Iron Crown and Ting Lu I think deoxys is overrated in A. A- seems fair

Drop
Raise
Not a huge change but I think these are in the wrong order. The mini weezing experiment was fun but in practice Pecharunt seems a little more splashable on fat due to compressing a couple more roles

 

[heileone]

Suggestions:
Moon from A to A+
Now that people have realized that 3 attack booster is bad and have started using bulky roost and 2 attack taunt again I think this mon is slated to make a resurgence in a big way. Teams simply arent nearly as ready for that type of stuff as most moon counterplay atm is hit it with a status move(fat) or whatever pokemon is in followed by priority(offense). Very big threat if its carrying the right set.

Darkrai from A+ to A
I think that scarf is probably the best set but honestly I feel like this mon isnt as oppressive as it used to be a bit ago. Rise of stuff like tink and garg really hurts it. Still really good as a disruptor but it feels underwhelming as an outright threat.

Moltres from A to A-
Moltres has been feeling a lot worse lately since it feels like it has to run so many moves in the modern meta. Roar, uturn, scorching sands, wisp, brave bird, and you only have like 2 slots to run them. Not to mention zama usage has shifted drastically away from being nearly all idef to roughly 50/50 attacker/idef, meaning that it cant reliably answer one of the pokemon it was best into. Meanwhile more landoruses have started running rock moves to try to catch it specifically(ive even seen and used mixed with edge+ep) and it makes the mon feel a lot more underwhelming. When it first came on the scene it had a really good meta matchup but now that things have evolved around it I think it has been feeling a lot worse.

 

[Supersam10001]

Nominating

to B+ from C+

Garchomp has had a huge dropoff from the level of usage in had in old generations, however this doesn't mean it deserves to be in a tier as low as C+. Garchomp is one of the most versatile mons in this gen, having the ability to be a sweeper, a mixed attack threat or just a defensive rock setter. Either way, it's actually really useful this gen with a tera like fire, electric or fairy based on the way you're using it.

Garchomp with a specially mixed set is able to consistently set up rocks and get big damage on all the normal checks it has barring spdef clefable, and av alolamola, both mons only found on hard stall or very rarely bulky offense.

With a defensive set, you're able to set up rocks and spikes with 1 mon while chipping down any mon clicking u-turn randomly significantly. You can also drop spikes for rest or flamethrower, which can either burn opposing mons or give you a source of recovery.

As a sweeper its actually quite interesting how nobody gives it any respect. With tera fire, you're able to 2hko almost every mon in the game with a +2 attack, which can be done in quite a few situations seeing Garchomp's incredible bulk. It is also to link really well with any really powerful pokemon on the special side like Kyurem, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth.

Below are a bunch of calcs to justify its rise to B+

Special Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 331-391 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 363-427 (95 - 111.7%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 257-304 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 385-455 (96.4 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 555-655 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 175-208 (49.7 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 344-406 (89.8 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO

Physical Calcs

+2 252 Atk Tera Fire Garchomp Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 366-432 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Great Tusk: 255-300 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 335-405 (87.6 - 106%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 320-380 (83.5 - 99.2%) -- approx. 2HKO (any minor chip kills)

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 335-395 (95.1 - 112.2%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 418-493 (114.8 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 225-270 (57.9 - 69.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 270-318 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 288-339 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Pelipper: 300-360 (92.8 - 111.4%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Moyashi]

Nominating

to B+ from C+

Garchomp has had a huge dropoff from the level of usage in had in old generations, however this doesn't mean it deserves to be in a tier as low as C+. Garchomp is one of the most versatile mons in this gen, having the ability to be a sweeper, a mixed attack threat or just a defensive rock setter. Either way, it's actually really useful this gen with a tera like fire, electric or fairy based on the way you're using it.

Garchomp with a specially mixed set is able to consistently set up rocks and get big damage on all the normal checks it has barring spdef clefable, and av alolamola, both mons only found on hard stall or very rarely bulky offense.

With a defensive set, you're able to set up rocks and spikes with 1 mon while chipping down any mon clicking u-turn randomly significantly. You can also drop spikes for rest or flamethrower, which can either burn opposing mons or give you a source of recovery.

As a sweeper its actually quite interesting how nobody gives it any respect. With tera fire, you're able to 2hko almost every mon in the game with a +2 attack, which can be done in quite a few situations seeing Garchomp's incredible bulk. It is also to link really well with any really powerful pokemon on the special side like Kyurem, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth.

Below are a bunch of calcs to justify its rise to B+

Special Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 331-391 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 363-427 (95 - 111.7%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 257-304 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 385-455 (96.4 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 555-655 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 175-208 (49.7 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Garchomp Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 344-406 (89.8 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO

Physical Calcs

+2 252 Atk Tera Fire Garchomp Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 366-432 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Great Tusk: 255-300 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 335-405 (87.6 - 106%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 320-380 (83.5 - 99.2%) -- approx. 2HKO (any minor chip kills)

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 335-395 (95.1 - 112.2%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 418-493 (114.8 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 225-270 (57.9 - 69.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 270-318 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 288-339 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Pelipper: 300-360 (92.8 - 111.4%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock

Respectfully, simply listing off calcs doesn't show why a mon deserves to rise, especially a full subrank at that when it hasn't had any good tournament success for some time. For a mon that low on the VR it's helpful to show it doing things at a fair level. People respect it in the sense they know what it can do, it's just mediocre unfortunately. And on that note

C+ -> C
It kinda just doesn't exist, or at least not in a way of any relevancy. It's more fringe as a pick and just is underwhelming whether it's set up sets that are easily revenge killed by Valiant or priority, or denied by good play, or tank sets which kinda are just worse as a defensive ground next to Ting-Lu (who can run Rocky Helmet if it wants to punish Tusk for spinning), and Lando-T who also can run helmet while packing intimidate, ground immunity and pivoting tools.

B -> B-
Its applications are limited and it suffers from either a lack of power or prediction reliance, and it's awfully easy to punish with contact effects which if they go off, immediately ruin it for the rest of the game. I know some players still like it, but I find it super disappointing as a dark type, and outclassed as a grass type offensively.

B+ -> B
Speaking of disappointing, remember when this was good? CB is too easy to exploit with protect users, as well as punish for locking into bad moves and eternally hating Molt/Zap. It still has very minimal defensive utility and its priority continues to thud into too many common pokemon on offense while its easy to wear down with hazards and the few resisted hits it can switch into. Much like Meow, there are better grass types and better pivots.

B+ -> B-
This mon sucks. Flat out. It's steeply fallen off and is harder than ever to justify outside stall or specific fat balances that can cover for its awful passivity or moveslot issues, and you generally have to go out of your way to build around it. It's either overwhelmed or exploited by physical threats it's meant to check (knock off, u-turn).

 

[Magcargo]

B -> B-
Its applications are limited and it suffers from either a lack of power or prediction reliance, and it's awfully easy to punish with contact effects which if they go off, immediately ruin it for the rest of the game. I know some players still like it, but I find it super disappointing as a dark type, and outclassed as a grass type offensively.

This isn't true. Meow's lack of rocks weakness lets it run pads to decent effect and safely attack both the birds + Lando-T. The birds can easily be lured and beaten with the combination of Knock + Rocks long-term and fail to really switch into Axel repeatedly once Knocked. Main switch-in to this set long-term is corv, which also gets chipped down by rocks + is free entry for one of Meow's best partner's, Raging Bolt, which is also good against the other birds. Other sets like Band / Scarf can struggle vs the birds, but these birds will never like taking Knock Offs and getting worn by Rocks over time.

Meow's B-Rank placement is fine I think. Most of its sets like Scarf, Band, and Pads have clear utility with the ability function as strong speed control, a breaker, or lure to its common checks, its got a good speed tier + typing into the key threats like Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, etc. and the Ice / Grass Coverage to threaten many of the bulky offense / balance teams in the tier. I think it has notable advantages over each of its competitors, whether it be the Grass coverage + U-turn over weavile, Ice Coverage over Oger-TM, better speed + priority + more flexabile item choice over Oger-W, etc. Lets also not forget that the mon just dropped. Personally would use it before running something like Ogerpon-C (which is currently in B+) or some of the other B-tier threats like Rotom-W (which imo is a very fake water-resist and check to anything) or Serperior.

I don't think Rilla should drop either since it just enables a lot of stupid cheese with Grassy Terrain, like Seed Hatterene, Seed Gholdengo, Raging Bolt, Hawlucha, etc. Strong priority also just gives it a lot of utility and flexibility vs many of the offensive threats of the tier even if it is resisted, like Roaring Moon (esp Tera Ground / Fairy), Darkrai, Iron Valiant, etc. The utility that G-Terrain has just gives it a lotta value in general.

Garchomp I think is fine where it is, maybe it could even go up to B Rank. SD Scale Shot is inconsistent, but it grabs easy setup oppurtunities against Pokemon like Gking and can easily snowball vs standardish teams (think Lando-T + Crown or Gking + Zapdos builds) with a little bit of proper play. SD Tera Dragon Scale can beat a lot of its defensive counterplay easily.

 

[Blue Sun]

Checking the VR after some time and gotta say band Azumarill is one of the most underrated mons imo. Its true that good team comps are inherently prepared for it, with common mons offering pretty much a blanket check depending on the move it clicks. This thing packs such a punch though, that a wrong switch in can dent a massive hole on an otherwise good defensive core. Band Azu will never sweep, but his teammate Kingambit will. One other good teammate is glowking. Future Sight + Band Azu switch in via chilly reception is a massive pain to handle. I can see it having a niche in the vr as a solid C+ mon. His major flaw is fitting it in a team over Ogrepon...