clodsire and toxapex have toxic, can lay down hazards, and can spread status. These are not passive pokemon unlike smth like blissey last gen or corviknight. Also avalugg has shit sp. def meaning it is taken advantage of easily, also ice is a shit type regardless
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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My brother in Arceus, have you heard of Terastallization?
I think H-Avalugg does have some minor merits over regular. Most notably, provided they keep some semblance of the PLA learnset, it has access to Stealth Rock. Be it in OU or wherever it eventually lands, a titanically bulky [insert best single-type for that tier] Pokemon with access to Recover, Rocks, Rapid Spin, and whatever last move it wants sounds pretty good. While it'll most likely do best with Body Press, that last move could also be wild stuff like Avalanche, Stone Edge or Rock Slide, or any other decent random coverage. It's your hazard control slot. Retaining Rock-type STAB after Tera is also not something to forget as a difference. Regarding the ability issue you point out, regular Avalugg isn't all that much better tbh; it's stuck to Own Tempo, Ice Body, and Sturdy. Hisuian has more choices with Strong Jaw honestly, like running Crunch as coverage if the meta or tier requires it, or you just like smacking Ghosts coming in on your Spin. The other ability choices are the exact same.
Is it good? Probably not by OU standards. Is it worse than regular in a general sense? Not at all.
Im not losing to knock off and trick but i do find the pressure Nacl makes thanks to Salt Cure is too much and cloak isnt even cosistent enough due to how relatively easy its get rid of it. (and its not the only thing nacl can do anyway).
Great Tusk fist that description too and nobody considers it broken, in fact, I consider Tusk to be way bettee than Gholdengo, however, that doesn't make it unhealthy, because unlike Garg or Pao, there is ways to consistently beat it without having to give up your itemslot or use not OU Pokémon just to check it.
It’s one thing to be Garganacl levels of Tera dependent (you WANT to Tera, but you can get away with not, sometimes), and it’s another thing to be a complete and utter unmon until you Tera.
Totally agree! This is the plight of most Ice-types to be fair; the one guy earlier had that whole post about Cryogonal and how it has potential relevance even in OU. It's also part of why both Avaluggs probably aren't up to non-niche OU standard. But if we're comparing normal Avalugg to Hisuian as they were, the fact that they're so Tera-dependent isn't the issue.
Since we talk about hisuan pokemon, what do you think of hisuan Arcanine?
I made a post about what I thinking of him but I like to hear the opinion of pro.
"When I saw Hisuan Arcanine I literraly said "Oh such a shame that a so good looking pokemon is such trash, Fire/Rock even if good offensively is one of the worst type defensively and he is a little slower than arcanine (even if 90 speed is still a correct speed).
But then I saw that he obtain rock head and I realised that he is the best rock head user and will be UU material, for me all the rock head user has two major problem that ruins their potential, first except Aerodactyl they are very slow and even if some tactic like trick room exist, this is still very hard to use them as they require a lot of placement and the other is that they have a very bad movepool who don't go well with this ability like Aerodactyl who doesn't have head smash or the pokemon who have just one attack who benefit from this ability like Marowak or Tyrantrum but Hisuan Arcanine has the best movepool for the ability with head smash,flare blitz, wild charge and double edge (even if this one will be never used because of extreme speed) and has decent speed of 90 which can be used has a scarf or a band can be very powerful, really one of the most disastrous pokemon of the Hisuan version become a future top UU threat."
I made a post about what I thinking of him but I like to hear the opinion of pro.
"When I saw Hisuan Arcanine I literraly said "Oh such a shame that a so good looking pokemon is such trash, Fire/Rock even if good offensively is one of the worst type defensively and he is a little slower than arcanine (even if 90 speed is still a correct speed).
But then I saw that he obtain rock head and I realised that he is the best rock head user and will be UU material, for me all the rock head user has two major problem that ruins their potential, first except Aerodactyl they are very slow and even if some tactic like trick room exist, this is still very hard to use them as they require a lot of placement and the other is that they have a very bad movepool who don't go well with this ability like Aerodactyl who doesn't have head smash or the pokemon who have just one attack who benefit from this ability like Marowak or Tyrantrum but Hisuan Arcanine has the best movepool for the ability with head smash,flare blitz, wild charge and double edge (even if this one will be never used because of extreme speed) and has decent speed of 90 which can be used has a scarf or a band can be very powerful, really one of the most disastrous pokemon of the Hisuan version become a future top UU threat."
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I was just looking at your first sentence with that reply there, terastalization does fix its horrible defensive typing yeah but there’s a reason pokemon who rely on Tera as a cure-all are niche at best.
However, regular Avalugg’s slightly better defensive typing does give it more flexibility in the few matchups you can’t/don’t want to Tera it because you need to Tera something else.
Banded Head Smash deletes anything that isn’t a physically defensive resist, Flare Blitz deletes most resists. Great Tusk can’t reliably switch into banded FB, no matter how physdef you are.
It’s rocks weak and prone to being revenge killed, but it’s still an incredibly strong wallbreaker.
You flipping your icon freaked me out a bit ngl. Mirror finch from alternate dimension
Do we get a sneak peak for the Mon?
the opportunity cost of bringing hisuian avalugg and constantly needing to terastallize instead of using your tera on something else makes this pokemon completely unviable in OU and many of the tiers below it. tera helps but again, why would you use a pokemon that NEEDS tera to scrape out even the slightest of niches in the tier? just seems like a complete waste of a teamslot on anything that isn't some gimmicky snow team in NU or something of the like
true. but then again, so do a lot of defense-oriented pokemon in this meta. for instance, the aforementioned clodsire and toxapex are completely shut down by the likes of corviknight, garganacl, hatterene, AB gholdengo, etc. and i'd say they get shut down by these pokemon even harder than avalugg does.
also true. chi-yu was a whole different beast and in retrospect, i fully agree that i shouldn't have used it as an example when making my point. i still do believe that gholdengo isn't exactly banworthy (at least, as of now) but i acknowledge that i should have made a better comparison
yeah, what was i thinking? this thing will be the new meta, i can already see it!
this is dark finch. he thinks king's rock is fair and balanced, wants to ban lando-t and toxapex, would have voted for a houndstone ban even if it didn't get last respects, hates nu and never plays it, and is considering unbanning flutter mane. a true villain
True evil Finch be like: hates Harry styles, hates pex, hates lando, voted no ban on dinamax, dracovish and flutter mane, he thinks arceus should be legal in NU if at level 20 with low base power attacking moves
What? It’s exploitable and unmovable on the special side???
Hey, decided to do a follow up to Finch's common Tera types post and add some of the popular sets I have seen do well in ladder. I will be bolding the ones not in the post and adding a brief description about them.
Amoonguss Water, Fire, Fairy, Poison
Azumarill Water, Grass
Baxcalibur Fairy, Ice, Dragon, Ground, Fire, Poison
Blissey Fairy, Ghost
Breloom Fighting, Grass, Fire, Electric
Chien-Pao Dark, Ice, Ghost, Fighting, Flying
Cinderace Fire
Clodsire Water, Dark, Steel, Poison
Corviknight Ground, Dark, Dragon, Water, Flying
Dondozo Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark, Dragon
Dragapult Ghost, Dark, Fairy, Dragon, Fire, Normal
Dragonite Normal, Steel, Fire, Flying
Espathra Fairy, Fighting, Ghost
Garchomp Steel, Ghost, Water, Fairy, Ground, Fire, Flying
Garganacl Water, Flying, Grass, Fairy, Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Dragon
Gholdengo Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Normal, Dark, Flying
Glimmora Ghost, Steel, Grass, Fairy, Flying, Ground
Great Tusk Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Flying, Fire
Grimmsnarl Ghost, Poison, Steel
Hatterene: Water, Flying, Steel, Fire
Iron Hands Electric, Fighting, Flying, Fairy, Dark
Iron Moth Poison, Fire, Fairy, Grass, Flying
Iron Treads Ghost, Ground, Flying, Steel, Dragon
Iron Valiant Electric, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting, Poison, Dark, Steel, Psychic, Rock
Kingambit Dark, Flying, Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Fire, Fairy
Meowscarada Grass, Fairy, Dark, Electric, Fairy
Quaquaval Water, Fighting, Fairy, Dark, Normal, Steel
Roaring Moon Steel, Dark, Flying, Fairy, Bug
Rotom-Wash Steel, Water, Ghost, Electric
Scizor Steel, Fire, Electric, Flying, Normal
Skeledirge Fairy, Dark, Fire, Water
Slowking Water
Ting-Lu Poison, Steel, Water, Ground, Fairy
Torkoal Ghost, Flying, Fire, Steel
Toxapex Water, Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark, Poison
Tyranitar Steel, Ghost
Volcarona Grass, Psychic, Bug, Fairy, Steel, Ice
Explanation:
Amoonguss Water, Fire, Fairy, Poison Azumarill Water, Grass Baxcalibur Fairy, Ice, Dragon, Ground, Fire, Poison Blissey Fairy, Ghost Breloom Fighting, Grass, Fire, Electric Chien-Pao Dark, Ice, Ghost, Fighting, Flying Cinderace Fire Clodsire Water, Dark, Steel, Poison Corviknight Ground, Dark, Dragon, Water, Flying Dondozo Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark, Dragon Dragapult Ghost, Dark, Fairy, Dragon, Fire, Normal Dragonite Normal, Steel, Fire, Flying Espathra Fairy, Fighting, Ghost Garchomp Steel, Ghost, Water, Fairy, Ground, Fire, Flying Garganacl Water, Flying, Grass, Fairy, Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Dragon Gholdengo Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Normal, Dark, Flying Glimmora Ghost, Steel, Grass, Fairy, Flying, Ground Great Tusk Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Flying, Fire Grimmsnarl Ghost, Poison, Steel Hatterene: Water, Flying, Steel, Fire Iron Hands Electric, Fighting, Flying, Fairy, Dark Iron Moth Poison, Fire, Fairy, Grass, Flying Iron Treads Ghost, Ground, Flying, Steel, Dragon Iron Valiant Electric, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting, Poison, Dark, Steel, Psychic, Rock Kingambit Dark, Flying, Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Fire, Fairy Meowscarada Grass, Fairy, Dark, Electric, Fairy Quaquaval Water, Fighting, Fairy, Dark, Normal, Steel Roaring Moon Steel, Dark, Flying, Fairy, Bug Rotom-Wash Steel, Water, Ghost, Electric Scizor Steel, Fire, Electric, Flying, Normal Skeledirge Fairy, Dark, Fire, Water Slowking Water Ting-Lu Poison, Steel, Water, Ground, Fairy Torkoal Ghost, Flying, Fire, Steel Toxapex Water, Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark, Poison Tyranitar Steel, Ghost Volcarona Grass, Psychic, Bug, Fairy, Steel, IceExplanation:
- Tera Poison keeps a type that allows it to resist Iron Valiant stabs while getting rid of the many weaknesses of Grass types. Notably able to take an Ice-type move from Chien Pao in an emergency and spore it. Worth mentioning that this allow you to tera without having to worry about Black Sludge damage.
- Tera Fire Just the default option but worth a mention given Cinderace's decent popularity.
- Tera Ground has the extra power needed for important OHKOs such as against Scarf Gholdengo, Cinderace and some Kingambit.
- Tera Rock turns the tables on Volcarona. Common switch-ins against Valiant such as Amoonguss, Clodsire, Toxapex and Gholdengo have to be careful of coverage moves like Psyshock, Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball. Physically Defensive Volcarona is thus one of the safest answers, resisting both stabs and not taking much damage from the usual coverage. Tera Blast Tera Rock invalidates this and sometimes insta wins against teams that rely solely on Volcarona to deal with Valiant.
- Tera Fire can't get burned, making it an amazing answer against Volcarona. It doesn't have to worry about guessing games against Chien-Pao unlike Tera Flying does.
- Tera Fairy gets rid of the Ground and Fighting weakness while also not having to play guessing games vs Chien-Pao, though it has to be a bit more worry of potential Icicle Crash flinches.
- Tera Steel is a good option on slow Quaquavals that tend to be revenged by Dragapult's Draco Meteor/Dragon Darts, Iron Valiant's Moonblast, as well as Azumarill's Play Rough. The extra turns this can potentially provide can turn the game on its head.
- Tera Poison is used for the same reasons as Tera Poison Amoonguss. Notably good vs Banded Breloom's Bullet Seed.
- Tera Ice with Tera Blast is good against the Dragons, mainly Dragonite. Specially useful now that ladder Dragonites are running Facade to, among other things, beat Will-O-Wisp Volcarona.
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I'd like to suggest adding Steel to the list. It doesn't mitigate the ground weakness, but it does flip the tables on Psychic and Fairy types (while also just being defensively great in general). It's especially useful on band sets, which would like to keep their resistance to Rocks, really enoy the TSpikes immunity, and (IMO) don't benefit as reliably from the free turn you can get to set up with Tera Flying. The thing that really makes Steel worth considering, though, is that Heavy Slam is a hugely slept on all-purpose coverage move for Iron Hands. With Tera, it becomes kind of an insane weapon, even against neutral targets:
200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 417-492 (131.5 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Iron Hands Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 324-382 (75 - 88.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
why run tera dark? i don't really see how this could help corviknight when all it does is give it a worse matchup against pokemon it already checks, such as azumarill, scizor, breloom, great tusk and iron valiant. the others make sense as tera types corviknight would want but i'm really not seeing dark. then again i could very well be wrong on this
Melmetal at home but in the best way
tera has opened the door for a lot of creative “_____ at home” sets to fill past niches, something like fairy dirge as unaware clef, or normal dnite as ekiller arceus… anything else come to mind?
BULK UP POWER TRIP CORVIKNIGHT BABY LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
+2 0 Atk Tera Dark Corviknight Power Trip (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 402-474 (127.6 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But for real, even at +1 it 2HKOs gholdengo, sets all over unsuspecting skeleridges, and can easily snowball out of controll if you dont have a fast fairy like Valiant or something strong like loom
Honestly, this sounds like a meme but Power Trip is actually more viable than Body Press in corv, there, i said it
I'm not sure if this is considered a hot take any more, but I really don't think Gholdengo is that broken. I get why it's ability blocking virtually all hazard removal can be problematic, but several common hazard control mons also have the ability to force gholdengo out. Gholdengo really doesn't want to get hit with EQ or knock off, and Great Tusk has access to both of those moves along with rapid spin. Iron Treads also has EQ and rapid spin. In order to spin block, gholdengo needs to stay/switch in on them and risk taking massive damage. These two are the best rapid spinners in the game because they can force out/kill gholdengo and then clear hazards (and set up their own). In addition, cinderace is back, and has a (admittedly inferior) hazard removal move that gholdengo can't block, and can threaten it with pyro ball. Gholdengo is very good, by I feel like is more of a good but balanced meta staple like landorus, than something that is outright ban worthy.
You gonna reach a hundred days, my assumption is we're going to have to wait a while for a suspect test because from the last quickban vote, iirc Chien Pao got 0 votes for ban so if that's how the council is feeling about it 1 week ago I don't know if feelings have changed since then. There will have to be a lot of push back from the community and a potential survey maybe.
Appreciate this and the explanations are fantastic!!! Great job here.Hey, decided to do a follow up to Finch's common Tera types post and add some of the popular sets I have seen do well in ladder. I will be bolding the ones not in the post and adding a brief description about them.
Explanation:
- Tera Poison
- Tera Fire
- Tera Ground
- Tera Rock
- Tera Fire
- Tera Fairy
- Tera Steel
- Tera Poison
- Tera Ice
But also want to note that an official thread on the Tera Type Index coming (and will cover even more Pokemon) after the SPL Power Rankings are done this weekend, so probably sometime next week. I will likely keep it synced up with the VR as the generation continues, too, so each Pokemon deemed viable will have a listing and it will remain updated with the metagame's development as well.
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