Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Coming back to the present, did you guys know that Clodsire has haze? is useless with Unawere

haze is not at all useless with unaware, it's arguably better. being able to switch into a setup sweeper, eat its boosts, and then switch into something else is a fantastic utility that i don't see used nearly as often as it should be

 

[Critaquil]

haze is not at all useless with unaware, it's arguably better. being able to switch into a setup sweeper, eat its boosts, and then switch into something else is a fantastic utility that i don't see used nearly as often as it should be

clodsire is already really strapped for moveslots between eq/recover/spikes/toxic/stealth rocks/pjab and adding haze to the mix only worsens this, as it basically forces you to either drop hazards which risks making it incredibly passive or drop toxic in which case haze doesn't really matter if you can't actually beat the setup sweeper 1v1

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

clodsire is already really strapped for moveslots between eq/recover/spikes/toxic/stealth rocks/pjab and adding haze to the mix only worsens this, as it basically forces you to either drop hazards which risks making it incredibly passive or drop toxic in which case haze doesn't really matter if you can't actually beat the setup sweeper 1v1

i prefer running hazards on things besides clod. there's really no shortage of good hazard setters in this meta, so i figure that if something has a bunch of other tools besides hazards i'd rather put the hazards on something else. that's just my opinion, though

 

[Fusion Flare]

I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

Tell the billionth Murkrow you face today I said hi

 

[LoseToRU?]

We must be perfectly content with the current meta to resort to complaining about bans for Pokemon that aren't even in the game right now...

As for me, I think the recent wave of quick bans have done a lot to improve the state of things, but Chien Pao sticks out as an unhealthy presence in the meta currently. Reliable switch-ins to the Tera Dark CB set basically don't exist outside of the Paldean-Tauros forms and defensive Arcanine. Dondozo is a pretty shaky answer when you consider its vulnerability to hazards, poor recovery options, and the fact that it takes so much from Crunch anyway:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Adamant CB (which is perfectly viable, only really important things you lose out on outspeeding are Cinder and Roaring Moon) has nearly a 50% chance at that 2HKO with absolutely no chip whatsoever. And of course, lesser physical walls than Dondozo simply crumble when confronted with this set's power:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 230-272 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I wouldn't even call it prediction reliant either--there are a few meta game staples that can somewhat dissuade it from just clicking Crunch all the time (Great Tusk, Kingambit, Valiant kind of) but they all incur a huge risk from switching in whereas Chien doesn't lose much from Crunching. The coverage and priority afforded by its other move slots are honestly just icing on the cake. Also, Crunch and Icicle Crash both carry with them powerful bonus effects means even some of the better answers in the tier are susceptible to being haxed past. It being the second fastest mon in the tier severely limits offensive counterplay, too, so that the list of reliable revenge killers isn't all that long. I've only touched on the CB set because I think it's the best one but of course HDB sets are potent in their own regard.

All in all, it feels like any team that isn't packing Paldean-Tauros is going to have a very difficult time dealing with Chien-Pao and I don't think this creates a very healthy dynamic in the builder or in-game.

Just FYI a mon not really having switch ins doesn't inherently mean it's broken.
Band Craw and Mel in gen 8 don't really have a "safe switch in".
There's probably 100 other examples over the years.

Pao really isn't as amazing as ppl are saying. It's a top tier glass cannon, for sure, but it has reliable counterplay.

 

[Critaquil]

Just FYI a mon not really having switch ins doesn't inherently mean it's broken.
Band Craw and Mel in gen 8 don't really have a "safe switch in".
There's probably 100 other examples over the years.

Pao really isn't as amazing as ppl are saying. It's a top tier glass cannon, for sure, but it has reliable counterplay.

the difference is that melm and daunt are both slow as as shit and thus were pretty easy to revenge kill, (or in the case of daunt, a lot less things were threatened out by it in the first place) meanwhile chien-pao is one of the fastest mons in the tier with strong priority to boot making the counterplay significantly more limited

 

[ApertureB]

Just FYI a mon not really having switch ins doesn't inherently mean it's broken.
Band Craw and Mel in gen 8 don't really have a "safe switch in".
There's probably 100 other examples over the years.

Pao really isn't as amazing as ppl are saying. It's a top tier glass cannon, for sure, but it has reliable counterplay.

Reliable counterplay lol
Just be faster then it/use priority is the worst argument for making a mon seem fair, especially when said mon has access to it itself. There is like 3 mons in the entire game that can even switch into it.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Pao really isn't as amazing as ppl are saying. It's a top tier glass cannon, for sure, but it has reliable counterplay.

please name this "reliable counterplay" because it looks like a pretty significant portion of this thread, including some highly skilled players, can't seem to find it

(also, if i recall correctly, melmetal was suspect-tested multiple times and banned at least once, so even using your comparisons we should at least suspect pao)

 

[Ctann]

Ah, yes. Clodsire attacks with it's...horn.

To not make this a one-liner, what are everyone's thoughts on Slowking? With Chilly Reception, it gets a nice niche as a defensive pivot and a reason to use it over the more popular bulky water, Dondozo. Plus, it is basically necessary to use Slowking if you are running a Snow team.

Slowking is very fun to use but it just sucks the current metagame:

- resists fighting, but even 252+ bold can’t come in on knock off and then repeated ground attacks from great tusk, who is usually out early in a matchup. not to mention poor matchup against most of the common fighting types in general.

- resists psychic, but loses to hatterene and espathra, can’t do anything to either of them without a specific tech

- resists steel, but can’t take scizor or gholdengo due to their other STAB

- resists fire, but Volcarona often uses giga drain, and STAB bug buzz isn’t uncommon either. Skeledirge can 2hko all sets easily after a torch song or statusing it before hex

the water resistance is handy, and it can single-handedly beat a rain matchup with a 252/216+/40 set it can spam it’s chilly receptions and thunder waves to completely disrupt a rain team. Unfortunately having key matchups against quaquaval, barraskewda and co is not really the hottest thing right now.

the ability to come in on garganacl, and then chilly reception out to heal off the 25% salt cure is pretty awesome. This is niche at best tho, as you can’t do much to the garganacl, except get a safe switch in. So that switch better be capable of actually threatening a 100% garganacl or have substitute in its set.

it has general utility vs stall teams, thanks to its ability to regenerator check every defensive Pokémon in OU not called skeledirge or 252 bold gholdengo.

 

[taziathegreat]

So who do y’all think/want the new raid Pokémon to be ? I’m pretty sure the answer is greninja

 

[YataGarasu]

Personally I run CB Haxorus to revenge kill Chien Pao. (Note: I think it's ban worthy myself regardless of this answer)

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 426-502 (141.5 - 166.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even better when they waste their dark Tera.

Also handles Skeledirge, non-air balloon Goldengo though Make it Rain has a chance to 1HKO, and even non-tera Garganacle. I think a lot of RU/UU mons are being heavily overlooked for being old toys this gen.

 

[FORTNlTE]

So who do y’all think/want the new raid Pokémon to be ? I’m pretty sure the answer is greninja

if gf was smart they'd do a triple raid with all the gen 6 starters with their secondary tera type (fighting psychic dark), a week before announcing the kalos dlc

 

[mcooper527666]

They all unanimously refused to ban Chien pao, dragonite, and Gholdengo, why is that?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

They all unanimously refused to ban Chien pao, dragonite, and Gholdengo, why is that?

for dragonite, probably because they knew cyclizar was on the way out and they wanted to see whether dnite would still be problematic in a meta where it didn't get free subs passed to it all the time like the manager's kid at a subway. for gholdengo, probably because the meta seems to be adapting to its presence and also court change exists again. for chien-pao, i have no fucking clue, that thing should have been gone two radars ago and it's baffling that it got less votes than garganacl, a mon that loses to a piece of fabric

 

[STEELDRAGON]

The metagame is feeling a bit more stabilized now. The biggest outlier though is Chien-Pao. It literally nukes the vast majority of Pokémon and outspeeds everything except Dragapult. Dragapult isn't even that much of a problem for it because it falls to Sucker Punch/Ice Shard. If Chien-Pao gets a SD in it is almost game over, only dondozo comes to mind that can avoid being 2koed

 

[1LDK]

So who do y’all think/want the new raid Pokémon to be ? I’m pretty sure the answer is greninja

there was once a guy on 4chan saying that it was gonna be I now that most of the time you dont want to belive on 4chan but I do like Chesnaught a lot so im beliving

 

[Solar Power]

They all unanimously refused to ban Chien pao, dragonite, and Gholdengo, why is that?

Dragonite gets hard-walled by Corviknight (Edit: Bulky Roost DD Dragonite can beat Corviknight, but has to give up other coverage to do so), Ting-Lu, and all of the Unaware Pokemon. Add in the fact that it's weak to Rocks so either has to run Heavy Duty Boots or is limited to being switched in only on turns when there aren't hazards up. It only ever feels broken when you DD once and then sweep a whole team with Extremespeed, but that usually comes down to poor team-building on the opponent's part, rather than Dragonite itself being the problem.

Gholdengo was less of a pressing concern than the other quickbanned Pokemon, and is really only starting to feel overbearing now that some of the other major problems have been removed from the tier. I think a suspect is probably warranted but I still don't know if I agree with a quickban.

I was a Chien-Pao apologist last week, but since the quickbans, it's definitely feeling overpowered. Probably got saved by living in Chi-Yu's shadow and people didn't want to jump the gun on banning it. Now we have more information, so its time is probably up pretty soon.

 

[Vall]

So who do y’all think/want the new raid Pokémon to be ? I’m pretty sure the answer is greninja

considering is tera poison, it's probably a mon with poison type coverage, so yeah I think thats the safest bet.

Other than that? Zoroark-Hisui maybe. It learns sludge bomb via TM, and IDK why they'd hide the mon in the teaser.

What I want? Any of the hisui mons would be really neat. I'd hope H-Samourott & Kleavor specifically

 

[ApertureB]

The metagame is feeling a bit more stabilized now. The biggest outlier though is Chien-Pao. It literally nukes the vast majority of Pokémon and outspeeds everything except Dragapult. Dragapult isn't even that much of a problem for it because it falls to Sucker Punch/Ice Shard. If Chien-Pao gets a SD in it is almost game over, only dondozo comes to mind that can avoid being 2koed

Don gets 2 tapped by Tera dark lol

 

[Taka]

Dragonite gets hard-walled by Corviknight, Ting-Lu, and all of the Unaware Pokemon. Add in the fact that it's weak to Rocks so either has to run Heavy Duty Boots or is limited to being switched in only on turns when there aren't hazards up. It only ever feels broken when you DD once and then sweep a whole team with Extremespeed, but that usually comes down to poor team-building on the opponent's part, rather than Dragonite itself being the problem.

Gholdengo was less of a pressing concern than the other quickbanned Pokemon, and is really only starting to feel overbearing now that some of the other major problems have been removed from the tier. I think a suspect is probably warranted but I still don't know if I agree with a quickban.

I was a Chien-Pao apologist last week, but since the quickbans, it's definitely feeling overpowered. Probably got saved by living in Chi-Yu's shadow and people didn't want to jump the gun on banning it. Now we have more information, so its time is probably up pretty soon.

Just a minor correction, I agree entirely with the majority of your post, but the most common Dnite set at the moment is Bulky Roost DD, which beats Corviknight.

Gholdengo I'm not sure is a problem, but it sure is incredibly difficult to switch into for most teams, especially paired with the variety of sets it can run such as Scarf, Specs, Nasty Plot, Bulky Twave. Even ignoring the removal blocking, Gholdengo is just a fantastic pokemon in the metagame off of its toolset, and I'd argue feels healthy to slap on a team thanks to its solid defensive typing and ability to create momentum. The removal blocking kind of pushes it over the edge, but that isn't something I'm entirely convinced of either.

Chien-Pao goes hard LMAOO that dog just breaks 90% of teams without tera Fairy Garg

 

[STEELDRAGON]

Don gets 2 tapped by Tera dark lol

Yeah there is also Azumarill which resists both STABS but it just doesn't have the longevity. Quaquaval has Roost but it's not bulky and generally doesn't run defensive sets. Chien-Pao has next to no defensive answers out there

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So who do y’all think/want the new raid Pokémon to be ? I’m pretty sure the answer is greninja

i swear if it's lando-t i'm suing

 

[ayevon]

They aren't the easiest to fit on teams but both fire and water Tauros do a pretty good job of hard countering even Tera CB versions of Chien Pao, and can also blank Kingambit pretty well to boot. To me, Chien Pao would be #2 on my radar behind Gholdengo, and I think both deserves suspects at some point. I do think that Chien Pao is noteworthy step down from Chi Yu, for whatever that's worth lol.

 

[Mega Breloom]

So who do y’all think/want the new raid Pokémon to be ? I’m pretty sure the answer is greninja

Maybe Inceneroar for vgc.

 

[1LDK]

Unironically
I mean, theres this calc

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 330-390 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

which is bad, but on the flip side we have this calc

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 77-91 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

I fucking love this mon