Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Ibaragi]

People should just learn to adapt to the meta

"Learn to adapt to the meta" is the Dracovish argument "just use some random Water Absorb on all teams all the time" discussion all over again. We had that. We banned the thing. No one missed it. The game became healthier.
And it's not even exclusive to Dracovish. Use Shed Shell on mons for Shadow Tag/Arena Trap. Use Haze Unaware Quagsire (or Clodsire now) against Baton Pass chains. Always switch into something with Knock Off against Slowbro just in case it's Leppa (granted, that was a meme, but still). Use Inner Focus Umbreon/Weavile with Ice Shard against Shaymin-Sky. There's not a single ban, from individual mons to Global Clauses, that doesn't have some way to "adapt" to it. And we do, hence why the game and tournaments and all that never stops. But some stuff is so horrible and oppressing that the game simply improves when it's not allowed there anymore.
In short, saying "learn to adapt to the meta" is not understanding what smogon has been trying to accomplish each generation, not understanding how bans and tiering here works, and most importantly, not understanding that it's precisely the way the game plays out when you've "adapted" to some things that make it better to just ban them.

----

As for Chien Pao, I still agree with the no-QB at that timing with the way the meta was, but it's most definitely the highest priority for a suspect and I think the tier would be better without it. The fact that the bulk of the opinions defending it can be summarized into "Chi-Yu was worse" is pretty self-explanatory. Chi-Yu was almost unanimously hated by the community for almost two months of Tera-suspect discussion and was Quickbanned by an unanimous vote by the council. If Chien Pao's defense is "I'm not as bad as THAT", you might as well be pleading yourself guilty.

And Gholdengo, he's a difficult to measure pokemon in it's brokeness because he's not broken per se in any of its sets. It's the fact that he can do all those things, run any of a number of sets (Defensive with Recover, Choice Scarf or even Specs, NP, bulky NP with Recover...) while maintaining the very meta-warping ability to just cancel out most support moves. Not even immunity, which would've been fine as it'd mean at least moves like Defog and Parting Shot can do their intended jobs, but Cancel. Like, it's very important to note that the reasoning to point that Ghold should be banned is no specific set, but the effect its ability has to warp the meta around it while still being a very good mon of its own right; he'll never be some niche mon force-slapped into a team for the utility of it's ability, but a ridiculously good mon that also casually happens to be the perfect answer to most support moves with no drawbacks.

 

[Ibaragi]

Unaware was the preferred Clod ability at first but it was quickly discovered that it also ignored the -2 from Chi-Yu’s Overheat, so Clod couldn’t check it after an attack whatsoever. Turned out to be a good thing cuz Water Absorb is good in its own right.

I prefer it just because it completely shuts down Waters, and there are other viable Unaware users if you need them.

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 470-556 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Took out Unaware for this calc. Doesn't even matter, welcome to Pokemon Goldfish.
As for the "shut downs Waters", again, depends on coverage. All relevant waters except Dondozo can run Ice Spinner which kills anyway, and Dondozo VS Water Absorb Clodsire is pretty much a PP Stall until either side gets tired and switches out. Dondozo probably has less PP, but Rest means it can spend 2 turns without spending it, so hard to tell. I guess you can force it to Rest and get a free switch while it sleeps? But if it's Curse Dozo, he'll be at +2/+4 by the time you get to switch out, and good luck breaking that.

 

[Low-Key]

Honestly I am full in for a Chien-Pao and Gholdengo suspect test. They became so much better when the QBs of this month were given that now they're practically dominant, sure they still had their checks and counters but you really can't do much to stop them. Bringing both of them onto your teams is practically a given now as they're practically the top offensive threats in the tier. Chien-Pao is better Weavile with everything that Weavile could ever ask for (not to mention Sword of Ruin) and Gholdengo can run Specs/NP 3 Attacks with a lot of relative ease. Good as Gold even blocks status moves too. Ibaragi's post explains these Pokemon in a lot more detail so go check that out!

 

[ApertureB]

Guys..stall is healing

Real talk tho Garg is a monster right now because noone seems to want to run cloak on a defensive mon. Ive cheesed probably 50 games against Gargs on ladder right now with either Covert Cloak Clodsire or Ghost Garg with a very small speed investment because it outspeeds the opponents Garg to sub and cant be Body Pressed. Ghost Garg also acts as an anti-rapid spin mon and bodies them if you know its coming.

While I dont think Garg deserves any suspect or what not its incredibly funny when mons just randomly have cloak on them and he instantly loses. Ive even run into Cloak Amoongus and nearly died laughing.

 

[Ctann]

On the topic of the cascade of bans happening in OU:

we were all aware this was going to happen if terastalization stayed, it’s basically one of the following two:

- terastalization is banned, and the Pokémon banned in OU are a handful

- terasralization is not banned, and the list of Pokémon banned in OU is significantly longer

the domino effect won’t stop, as each overpowered thing is removed, it’s likely to reveal a few more Pokémon that were growing in its shade.

not necessarily a bad thing.. hopefully the meta fills up with more oncoming Pokémon’s soon

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Honestly I am full in for a Chien-Pao and Gholdengo suspect test. They became so much better when the QBs of this month were given that now they're practically dominant, sure they still had their checks and counters but you really can't do much to stop them. Bringing both of them onto your teams is practically a given now as they're practically the top offensive threats in the tier. Chien-Pao is better Weavile with everything that Weavile could ever ask for (not to mention Sword of Ruin) and Gholdengo can run Specs/NP 3 Attacks with a lot of relative ease. Good as Gold even blocks status moves too. Ibaragi's post explains these Pokemon in a lot more detail so go check that out!

i think a garganacl suspect would have some merit too. it's not broken in my mind and absolutely does not deserve to be banned, but so many people are complaining about it that a suspect test would at least direct that discussion away from this thread so we can talk about actual issues

 

[Ibaragi]

On the topic of the cascade of bans happening in OU:

we were all aware this was going to happen if terastalization stayed, it’s basically one of the following two:

- terastalization is banned, and the Pokémon banned in OU are a handful

- terasralization is not banned, and the list of Pokémon banned in OU is significantly longer

the domino effect won’t stop, as each overpowered thing is removed, it’s likely to reveal a few more Pokémon that were growing in its shade

Using "Cascade" to refer for these 3 bans is an overstatement. Sure, it's a full 7 if you count Houndstone, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle and Palafin, which is one of the if not the highes amount of quickbans in any generation, but out of all 7, Annihilape is THE ONLY ONE that pushed it due to Tera. Houndstone is out because of a move, Palafin and Flutter Mane for their sheer stats, Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu for their offensive power (the former with unrestisted high-power STAB and the latter not caring about being resisted in the first place) and Cyclizar for Shed Tail/Regenerator combo + utility moves and high Speed. Which of these, exactly, are you arguing that would've been perfectly fine and balanced without tera?
The remaining 3 pokemons that are currently being discussed predominantly right now are Garganacl, Gholdengo and Chien Pao. Out of these, Garganacl and Chien Pao are considered to be made even further broken by Tera, but neither has been banned yet to use as an argument and pinning the blame entirely on tera would be oversimplifying the problems they cause, to say the least.

Ironically, 3 of the monsters that have made the most active use of Tera to decide matches in their favor include Roaring Moon, Dragonite and Espathra... and not only none of them have been banned, they're not even considered top priorities for the following suspects.

 

[1LDK]

In my personal opinion, i feel like taking a month to suspect Chien Pao is stupid, its broken, its 1 dimensional, stabs, sword, double priority and ever meme recover (i got swept once by a recover chien pao please help me)

do you guys know that chien pao has HAZE? yeah, HAZE CHIEN PAO lmaooooo

but for real, it just deals too much damage and to be honest, if band kills donzo, then theres no way its reasonable, and i have been saying this since literally day one, this thing is as broken as flutter mane yet we still have it, he and roaring moon are the only reason i like liquidation and BP on donzo more than i like wave crash and curse, and moon is not broken in the slightest

and, as for "adapting" I feel like, theres times where its reasonable and times when it isnt, for example, in my personal opinion, Gholdengo is a problem that we can adapt to on a reasonable manner, Tera Dark Power Trip Corviknight in this meta does have a particular niche (Uturn for 6% is a meme, just stop it), on killing dengos, Skeles, grimms and water garganacl and setting up on a brainless ape for free (when it was legal) Tusk is lando T but doesnt look like Garfield, Talonflame, Oricorio, Hawlucha, Noivern, Donphan, and Iron threads all have been seeing some use for this, and while you have to play hot potato when scouting the set, once is scouted, you do have a good amount of answers, im not going into specifics but ranging from Clodsire to Garga to AV tusk to Moon to Thread, skele, kingambit, amoongus, breloom to Sylveon to ace to hydreigon to lots of stuff. you might argue that this is a cry for help rather than "promoting creativity" but if we were to draw the line, we would be here for ever, the point im trying to make is that, while yes, frustrating, Gholdengo is reasonable and this is a case where you can play around it and you can adapt yourself for it, i wasnt even into comp in gen 6 but the horror storys of Mega Sableye sound worse

now tell me how do you adapt to something that can 2 shot the fattest phisical wall we have right now, thats right, we cant lmao

 

[Ctann]

Using "Cascade" to refer for these 3 bans is an overstatement. Sure, it's a full 7 if you count Houndstone, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle and Palafin, which is one of the if not the highes amount of quickbans in any generation, but out of all 7, Annihilape is THE ONLY ONE that pushed it due to Tera. Houndstone is out because of a move, Palafin and Flutter Mane for their sheer stats, Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu for their offensive power (the former with unrestisted high-power STAB and the latter not caring about being resisted in the first place) and Cyclizar for Shed Tail/Regenerator combo + utility moves and high Speed. Which of these, exactly, are you arguing that would've been perfectly fine and balanced without tera?
The remaining 3 pokemons that are currently being discussed predominantly right now are Garganacl, Gholdengo and Chien Pao. Out of these, Garganacl and Chien Pao are considered to be made even further broken by Tera, but neither has been banned yet to use as an argument and pinning the blame entirely on tera would be oversimplifying the problems they cause, to say the least.

Ironically, 3 of the monsters that have made the most active use of Tera to decide matches in their favor include Roaring Moon, Dragonite and Espathra... and not only none of them have been banned, they're not even considered top priorities for the following suspects.

some threats take advantage of the mechanics of Tera very well. These are the main problems.

—

on the topic of Gargancl and chien pao:

here’s a 2 for 1 replay that simultaneously shows chien pao being rediculous and water garganacl being possible to break past using leftovers gholdengo.

Once iron hands was at 70%, and with a layer of spikes, it was mathematically possible for chien Pao to score a KO each time it came in safely.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1769968754-qxhf2xsvckpl36dvaec7h32ycpzlooapw

 

[ApertureB]

Now tell me how do you adapt to something that can 2 shot the fattest phisical wall we have right now, thats right, we cant lmao

I cant think of a single positive thing Pao offers right now. Why it wasnt banned in the previous quick is beyond me. Its just a physical version of Chi-Yu. Every single argument for keeping it are the same ones that Chi -Yu violated.

Please ban Chien-Pao it, we suffered through a solid month of Chi-Yu clicking buttons. We dont need another month to find out the same pokemon but physical is broken.

The only other pokemon making waves right now is Ghold who definitely deserves a suspect. Maybe when he reaches 80% usage lol

 

[Karxrida]

Using "Cascade" to refer for these 3 bans is an overstatement. Sure, it's a full 7 if you count Houndstone, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle and Palafin, which is one of the if not the highes amount of quickbans in any generation, but out of all 7, Annihilape is THE ONLY ONE that pushed it due to Tera. Houndstone is out because of a move, Palafin and Flutter Mane for their sheer stats, Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu for their offensive power (the former with unrestisted high-power STAB and the latter not caring about being resisted in the first place) and Cyclizar for Shed Tail/Regenerator combo + utility moves and high Speed. Which of these, exactly, are you arguing that would've been perfectly fine and balanced without tera?
The remaining 3 pokemons that are currently being discussed predominantly right now are Garganacl, Gholdengo and Chien Pao. Out of these, Garganacl and Chien Pao are considered to be made even further broken by Tera, but neither has been banned yet to use as an argument and pinning the blame entirely on tera would be oversimplifying the problems they cause, to say the least.

Ironically, 3 of the monsters that have made the most active use of Tera to decide matches in their favor include Roaring Moon, Dragonite and Espathra... and not only none of them have been banned, they're not even considered top priorities for the following suspects.

I think Annihilape would have at least been suspected in a meta without Tera. The Taunt set invalidated a bunch of more defensive teams and wasn't entirely useless against offense due to bulk + Bulk Up + Drain Punch.

Tera made it much better, no doubt, but it's the combination of other traits that were the crux of the issue.

 

[Morkal]

Pyroar

"Pyroar viciously threatens any challenger with a fiery breath exceeding 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit (6,000 degrees Celsius)." - Bulbapedia

"Will this get people to stop launching ad hominem at each other about Chien-Pao and Gholdengo? Not a clue, but I hope so because Pyroar slaps." - Morkal​

BASE STATS	STAT RANGE
HP: 86	282 - 376
Attack: 68	126 - 258
Defense: 72	134 - 267
Sp. Atk: 109	200 - 348
Sp. Def: 66	123 - 254
Speed: 106	195 - 342

With all the heated talk about Pokemon like Gholdengo, I thought I would share a niche pick with which I've been handling most variants of Gholdengo quite well. Pyroar is one of those Pokemon that fall under the "unfortunate" category because its abilities are relatively useless due to a Special Attack-oriented stat distribution. However, something that caught my eye unexpectedly is just how great Pyroar's Fire/Normal type is in the current meta. With its solid Speed and decent Special Attack, Pyroar has all the tools to carve out a respectable niche in OU. So let's survey the Pokemon Pridelands and find out what makes Pyroar function in OU -

Disclaimer: To make Pyroar work, you need to have plans to play around its frailty alongside good prediction sense and item + moveset combo knowledge. It is difficult to place on a team, but the offensive role compression it supplies can be more than worth it with particular builds.

Summarized Advantages of Pyroar
This is a "too long, didn't read" bullet point list for people who don't want to read through the whole post and want a quick understanding of Pyroar's OU benefits.​

• Pyroar's unique Fire/Normal type combination is offensively potent in the current OU landscape - its offensive STAB combination nails many vicious threats super effectively, such as Corviknight, Gholdengo, Ceruledge, Amoonguss, Kingambit, Skeledirge, and Scizor.
• Pyroar's Fire/Normal type combination is also a defensive blessing, allowing for a crucial Ghost immunity and useful resistances to Fire, Steel, Bug, Ice, Grass, and Fairy-type attacks.
• Pyroar's small but unique support movepool, combined with the ability to change types via Terastallizing, has breathed new life into the archetypes it can fit onto. Options such as Will-O-Wisp, Yawn, Taunt, and Endeavor on a Pokemon with base 106 Speed can be crucial in tight moments.
• Pyroar's offensive STAB coverage and stat spread allow the player to compress specific offensive layouts into a single slot, providing extra breathing room for team building.
• Pyroar's STAB Hyper Voice hits through Substitute, invalidating several would-be answers through sheer overwhelming power with Specs.

Pyroar Set - Lure Specs

Pyroar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Unnerve
Tera Type: Dark / Ghost / Fairy (Depending on what your team needs to lure)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Hyper Voice
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp / Overheat / Tera Blast (For Fairy Tera)

Lure Specs is what I consider to be Pyroar's best set for its immediate power and excellent speed tier. Most of the time, you'll be cycling between your two STAB attacks. For your primary Fire STAB, I recommend Flamethrower for accuracy, but Fire Blast is also an option if you need extra firepower (hah, pun). To show you just how much damage Pyroar can do, here are some Flamethrower calculations for Timid Specs (both Super Effective and Neutral) -

Flamethrower Super Effective Damage Calculations

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 446-528 (120.8 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 422-498 (111.6 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 440-522 (110.2 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 422-500 (97.6 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 940-1108 (276.4 - 325.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 584-690 (223.7 - 264.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chien-Pao: 552-650 (183.3 - 215.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 518-612 (161.3 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 518-612 (176.7 - 208.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flamethrower Neutral Damage Calculations

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 322-379 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 295-348 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Iron Hands: 267-315 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 186-220 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pawmot: 295-348 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 190-225 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimmsnarl: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

Not much wants to switch into Pyroar's Flamethrower (let alone Fire Blast), but what about the Pokemon who do resist it? Hyper Voice is Pyroar's other STAB move, and its utility is based on STAB and bypassing Substitute rather than coverage. Bypassing Substitute with a coverage move is one thing, but with a STAB move off of Specs, it can entirely derail an opponent's setup with proper prediction. Pyroar's offensive qualities with just its STAB alone are robust, but then we have the utility of Dark Pulse - Pyroar's one relevant coverage move which allows it to take on Pokemon such as Ceruledge, Skeledirge, and more (along with a useful flinch chance).

Hyper Voice + Dark Pulse Damage Calculations

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 276-325 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 222-262 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 178-211 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 196 HP / 56 SpD Quaquaval: 229-271 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 262-309 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 193-228 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 200-236 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 292-344 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are a few additional movepool options as well, such as Overheat a Tera Blast move type of your choice, but generally, it's going to depend on the specific team composition that you want to go for and how Pyroar will fit into your cores. So now we've established that Pyroar's power and speed are both great, but you're probably asking, "Well, sure, slap a Specs on something and it becomes powerful, but why Pyroar? Its defenses are lackluster, and there are much consistently better Fire types in OU beyond just power." Pyroar's defensive capabilities don't come from its bulk; they come from the specific utility of Fire/Normal and its relation to the meta.

Gholdengo's STABS? Pyroar is immune to Ghost and resists Steel.
Ceruledge and Skeledirge's STABS? Pyroar is immune to Ghost and resists Fire.
Volcarona's STABS? Pyroar resists both Bug and Fire.

The immunity to Ghost moves, in particular, fits like a glove and gives Pyroar more switch-in opportunities than you would expect, given its comparatively lacking 86/72/66 bulk. In addition, with the advent of Tera, you can expand this defensive utility further for unique defensive counterplay depending on what threat you're trying to deal with. Worried about priority Mach Punch or a Scarfed / faster Fighting-type user in general? Tera Ghost is just the option here. Are you looking for something to boost Dark Pulse's power to STAB levels while resisting priority Sucker Punch? Try Tera Dark. Want a hard stop to most Dragapult variants? Try Tera Fairy. The variety of choices extends further when you look at Pyroar's support movepool. For the last slot, I generally prefer Will-O-Wisp to negate Ting-Lu's recovery or weaken the physical onslaught of many Pokemon. Taunt is, as always, an excellent tool for shutting down more defensive options (especially when 106 base speed limits immediate counterplay for quite a few defensive threats).

Conclusion

While this post is shorter than my Cryogonal post earlier in the thread, it's because Pyroar is pretty simple and straightforward despite being such a niche mon. Pyroar is meant to weave in when the opportunity presents itself; kudos to its unique typing and solid offensive stats, then leave once you've either dented, maimed, or picked off an opposing Pokemon. If you're looking for a Pokemon that hits hard and compresses Offensive and Defensive synergy from multiple Pokemon into a single slot, then Pyroar might be a great fit for your team!

Edit: I cleaned up some formatting + some word choice on this post, Pyroar is still awesome.​

 

[Darlington]

I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

people just keep coming up with new copypastas left and right in this thread

 

[awyp]

I've been using Scarf Iron Valiant with Trick, it doesn't hit hard (like it's Choice Specs counterpart) but tricking fat walls such as Nacl with no protect (Iron Defense Body Press set) has been quite delightful.

Opinions on Scarf Valiant?

 

[1LDK]

I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

nah you are

 

[FORTNlTE]

No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want.

no paradoxes?

 

[ApertureB]

I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

Unga bunga me click high bp move and go first me should win
Me want use 650 base stat pokemon because big number give brain yippee juice

no paradoxes?

Or cover legends, or ruin pokemon, or charizard, or wooper....

Real talk the tier that you want to play is ubers, its literally right there, hell some of the Gen 9 mons that are banned in OU are doing great there!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol.

i'd like to go on record and say that if there were a collaborative smogon effort to design a pokemon game from scratch it would be literally a hundred times better than anything game freak could ever conceivably produce. even 4chan managed to outperform them. twice.

 

[FORTNlTE]

i'd like to go on record and say that if there were a collaborative smogon effort to design a pokemon game from scratch it would be literally a hundred times better than anything game freak could ever conceivably produce

calling ur bluff on this rn. give me a title, gen gimmick, regional rodent, and seven regional variants of dracovish
edit: still waiting

 

[Morkal]

I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

High school is one hell of a drug

To avoid this being one-liner; how do you all feel about Azumarill right now? Given that Fire-types are uncharacteristically powerful in this gen compared to previous generations.

 

[ApertureB]

High school is one hell of a drug

From what ive seen from my years of playing, the people who bash on Smogons bans generally dont play any formats.
Or they try VGC and realize that games are over in like 4 turns and are incredibly luck based, which may net them some cheese wins, but that doesnt work at all in singles so they get angry at it.

 

[Morkal]

From what ive seen from my years of playing, the people who bash on Smogons bans generally dont play any formats.
Or they try VGC and realize that games are over in like 4 turns and are incredibly luck based, which may net them some cheese wins, but that doesnt work at all in singles.

That is pretty accurate tbh - I'm not saying I agree with all of Smogon's bans (I still think Zamazenta-Crowned should have had a place in Gen 8's OU beyond that one suspect test), but Gen 9 in particular has had some of the best and most reasonable early tier bans I've seen in a long time

I'm pretty happy with how Smogon is handling Gen 9 so far, moreso than Gen 8 and DEFINITELY moreso than Gen 7

 

[Venduria]

Pyroar

"Pyroar viciously threatens any challenger with a fiery breath exceeding 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit (6,000 degrees Celsius)." - Bulbapedia

"Will this get people to stop launching ad hominem at each other about Chien-Pao and Gholdengo? Not a clue, but I hope so because Pyroar slaps." - Morkal​

BASE STATS	STAT RANGE
HP: 86	282 - 376
Attack: 68	126 - 258
Defense: 72	134 - 267
Sp. Atk: 109	200 - 348
Sp. Def: 66	123 - 254
Speed: 106	195 - 342

With all the heated talk about Pokemon like Gholdengo, I thought I would share a niche pick with which I've been handling most variants of Gholdengo quite well. Pyroar is one of those Pokemon that fall under the "unfortunate" category because its abilities are relatively useless due to a Special Attack-oriented stat distribution. However, something that caught my eye unexpectedly is just how great Pyroar's Fire/Normal type is in the current meta. With its solid Speed and decent Special Attack, Pyroar has all the tools to carve out a respectable niche in OU. So let's survey the Pokemon Pridelands and find out what makes Pyroar function in OU -

Disclaimer: To make Pyroar work, you need to have plans to play around its frailty alongside good prediction sense and item + moveset combo knowledge. It is difficult to place on a team, but the offensive role compression it supplies can be more than worth it with particular builds.

Summarized Advantages of Pyroar
This is a "too long, didn't read" bullet point list for people who don't want to read through the whole post and want a quick understanding of Pyroar's OU benefits.​

• Pyroar's unique Fire/Normal type combination is offensively potent in the current OU landscape - its offensive STAB combination nails many vicious threats super effectively, such as Corviknight, Gholdengo, Ceruledge, Amoonguss, Kingambit, Skeledirge, and Scizor.
• Pyroar's Fire/Normal type combination is also a defensive blessing, allowing for a crucial Ghost immunity and useful resistances to Fire, Steel, Bug, Ice, Grass, and Fairy-type attacks.
• Pyroar's small but unique support movepool, combined with the ability to change types via Terastallizing, has breathed new life into the archetypes it can fit onto. Options such as Will-O-Wisp, Yawn, Taunt, and Endeavor on a Pokemon with base 106 Speed can be crucial in tight moments.
• Pyroar's offensive STAB coverage and stat spread allow the player to compress specific offensive layouts into a single slot, providing extra breathing room for team building.
• Pyroar's STAB Hyper Voice hits through Substitute, invalidating several would-be answers through sheer overwhelming power with Specs.

Pyroar Set - Lure Specs

Pyroar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Unnerve
Tera Type: Dark / Ghost / Fairy (Depending on what your team needs to lure)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Hyper Voice
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp / Overheat / Tera Blast (For Fairy Tera)​

Lure Specs is what I consider to be Pyroar's best set for its immediate power and excellent speed tier. Most of the time, you'll be cycling between your two STAB attacks. For your primary Fire STAB, I recommend Flamethrower for accuracy, but Fire Blast is also an option if you need extra firepower (hah, pun). To show you just how much damage Pyroar can do, here are some Flamethrower calculations for Timid Specs (both Super Effective and Neutral) -

Flamethrower Super Effective Damage Calculations​

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 446-528 (120.8 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 422-498 (111.6 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 440-522 (110.2 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 422-500 (97.6 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 940-1108 (276.4 - 325.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 584-690 (223.7 - 264.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chien-Pao: 552-650 (183.3 - 215.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 518-612 (161.3 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 518-612 (176.7 - 208.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flamethrower Neutral Damage Calculations​

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 322-379 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 295-348 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Iron Hands: 267-315 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 186-220 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pawmot: 295-348 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 190-225 (59.7 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimmsnarl: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

Not much wants to switch into Pyroar's Flamethrower (let alone Fire Blast), but what about the Pokemon who do resist it? Hyper Voice is Pyroar's other STAB move, and its utility is based on STAB and bypassing Substitute rather than coverage. Bypassing Substitute with a coverage move is one thing, but with a STAB move off of Specs, it can entirely derail an opponent's setup with proper prediction. Pyroar's offensive qualities with just its STAB alone are robust, but then we have the utility of Dark Pulse - Pyroar's one relevant coverage move which allows it to take on Pokemon such as Ceruledge, Skeledirge, and more (along with a useful flinch chance).

Hyper Voice + Dark Pulse Damage Calculations​

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 276-325 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 222-262 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 178-211 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 196 HP / 56 SpD Quaquaval: 229-271 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 262-309 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 193-228 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 200-236 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 292-344 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are a few additional movepool options as well, such as Overheat a Tera Blast move type of your choice, but generally, it's going to depend on the specific team composition that you want to go for and how Pyroar will fit into your cores.

So we've established that Pyroar's power and speed are both great, but you're probably asking, "well, sure, slap a Specs on something, and it's powerful, but why Pyroar? Its defenses are lackluster, and there are much consistently better Fire types in OU beyond just power." Pyroar's defensive capabilities don't come from its bulk; they come from the specific utility of Fire/Normal and its relation to the meta.

Gholdengo's STABS? Pyroar is immune to Ghost and resists Steel.
Ceruledge and Skeledirge's STABS? Pyroar is immune to Ghost and resists Fire.
Volcarona's STABS? Pyroar resists both Bug and Fire.

The immunity to Ghost moves, in particular, fits like a glove and gives Pyroar more switch-in opportunities than you would expect, given its comparatively lacking 86/72/66 bulk. In addition, with the advent of Tera, you can expand this defensive utility further for unique defensive counterplay depending on what threat you're trying to deal with. Worried about priority Mach Punch or a Scarfed / faster Fighting-type user in general? Tera Ghost is just the option here. Are you looking for something to boost Dark Pulse's power to STAB levels while resisting priority Sucker Punch? Try Tera Dark. Want a hard stop to most Dragapult variants? Try Tera Fairy. The variety of choices extends further when you look at Pyroar's support movepool. For the last slot, I generally prefer Will-O-Wisp to negate Ting-Lu's recovery or weaken the physical onslaught of many Pokemon. Taunt is, as always, an excellent tool for shutting down more defensive options (especially coming off of 106 base speed).

Conclusion

​

While this post is shorter than my Cryogonal post earlier in the thread, it's because Pyroar is pretty simple and straightforward despite being such a niche mon. Pyroar is meant to weave in when the opportunity presents itself; kudos to its unique typing and solid offensive stats, then leave once you've either dented, maimed, or picked off an opposing Pokemon. If you're looking for a Pokemon that hits hard and compresses Offensive and Defensive synergy from multiple Pokemon into a single slot, then Pyroar might be a great fit for your team!

Oh no now I want to use Mufasa in my teams. Damn you for your creativity.

High school is one hell of a drug

To avoid this being one-liner; how do you all feel about Azumarill right now? Given that Fire-types are uncharacteristically powerful in this gen compared to previous generations.

Azumarill always feels like it pops off or does nothing. I've fiddled with a bit of bulk to be a Chien Pao counter and it works well, but its just barely not strong enough to 1v1 Skeledirge without getting burned which feels really bad. Possibly Tera Fire could be the tech but I haven't tried it out.

EDIT So I gave Pyroar and Azumarill Tera Fire a try and first game showed value for both.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1770038464

 

[Ctann]

I've been using Scarf Iron Valiant with Trick, it doesn't hit hard (like it's Choice Specs counterpart) but tricking fat walls such as Nacl with no protect (Iron Defense Body Press set) has been quite delightful.

Opinions on Scarf Valiant?

Scarf and specs valiant are very meta right now. Both can clean up end game. There are a lot of offensive Pokémon weak to fairy, and subsequently so many teams are packing 1-2 fairy resists with 2+ fairy weak Pokémon.

Personally I lean towards specs as the more powerful set due to the ability to 2hko numerous offensive resists with moonblast like gholdeno, glimmora, cinderace, etc.

being able to contribute against dondozo, corviknight, blissey, garganacl, etc is also easier when you have the raw power. Who needs prediction when adaptability moonblast can 2hko a corviknigjt that switched into stealth rock and then previously u turned out on a rocky helmet.

this allows it to open up holes more easily due to its naturally high speed giving it strong impact presence on high usage Pokémon such as great tusk, roaring moon, ting Lu, Garchomp, etc.

scarf beats chien pao and dragapult, so it’s definitely meta. Just fits less playstyles and teams. If your opponent has correctly guessed scarf you’ll have a hard time putting in work. Can’t say the same about specs. Specs is super consistent.