I am honestly hoping its Greninja.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I’ve been mostly posting sets about chien pao right now to encourage use before it’s eventual ban, lol, but here’s some tips on how to beat it:
• you only beat it by overpreparing (not a good idea), or gradually chipping it + heals, or with momentum, or an opponent misplay. This is in a similar vein to beating a high power rain team, the only way to win for a team is to keep the other player on the back foot with offense. How can chien pao get breathing space when you’re basically always trying to position your offensive threats in, and keeping pivots and passive tanks out whenever possible. Even if chien pao comes in, it’s less likely to auto win. The easiest way of keeping momentum is to remember “I don’t need to use a recovery move on my wall, I can switch/pivot it back out and sack later”, as well as “my offensive Pokémon can actually take a hit, why not switch my iron valiant into a predicted great tusk close combat/knock off/head rush, instead of using my typical 80% dondozo onto SR, which might invite a double switch into their rotom-w and then I’m forced out again, meaning 2x rounds of SR and chien pao can actually 2hko with just a life orb.
• Bulky “check-pivot” Pokémon are a great way to scout its set early. For example I’ve recently been using 252 bold corviknight with rocky helmet as a check-then pivot out (or body press if required). This works as only banded icicle crash can avoid 34% recoil damage and simultaneously deal enough damage to 2HKO. Corviknight is paired with a strong ice resist for this reason, and can be sacked later or brought in on a slow Mon to try and roost if required. Once you know it’s a banded set, you can sleep easily, as there will almost always be something to sack, and you’re gonna keep high pressure. Of course this corviknight will lose to +2 Life orb Tera dark, or even worse, a double swords dance Tera ghost/fight chien pao, who at +4 will basically destroy the entire “aware” metagame sans maybe Mr kowtow cleave, even azumaril hates +4 pao. It doesn’t matter what check-pivot you use, it’s going to lose to some set, so have contingency if possible.
• saving up a defensive Tera can help you get out of a sticky situation against offensive chien pao. Although be weary of them baiting a Tera and switching back out. For example Tera water great tusk can body press to KO on the turn it’s supposed to lose to +2 icicle crash. Likewise a Tera fairy gholdengo/rotom-w can actually survive crunch. Of course, if your Tera is still available, your opponent might correctly guess the defensive Tera and just use the other STAB, lol.
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understandably that’s a lot of text, please reply if you’d like replays, I’ll try and save some that demonstrate the key points.
• you only beat it by overpreparing (not a good idea), or gradually chipping it + heals, or with momentum, or an opponent misplay. This is in a similar vein to beating a high power rain team, the only way to win for a team is to keep the other player on the back foot with offense. How can chien pao get breathing space when you’re basically always trying to position your offensive threats in, and keeping pivots and passive tanks out whenever possible. Even if chien pao comes in, it’s less likely to auto win. The easiest way of keeping momentum is to remember “I don’t need to use a recovery move on my wall, I can switch/pivot it back out and sack later”, as well as “my offensive Pokémon can actually take a hit, why not switch my iron valiant into a predicted great tusk close combat/knock off/head rush, instead of using my typical 80% dondozo onto SR, which might invite a double switch into their rotom-w and then I’m forced out again, meaning 2x rounds of SR and chien pao can actually 2hko with just a life orb.
• Bulky “check-pivot” Pokémon are a great way to scout its set early. For example I’ve recently been using 252 bold corviknight with rocky helmet as a check-then pivot out (or body press if required). This works as only banded icicle crash can avoid 34% recoil damage and simultaneously deal enough damage to 2HKO. Corviknight is paired with a strong ice resist for this reason, and can be sacked later or brought in on a slow Mon to try and roost if required. Once you know it’s a banded set, you can sleep easily, as there will almost always be something to sack, and you’re gonna keep high pressure. Of course this corviknight will lose to +2 Life orb Tera dark, or even worse, a double swords dance Tera ghost/fight chien pao, who at +4 will basically destroy the entire “aware” metagame sans maybe Mr kowtow cleave, even azumaril hates +4 pao. It doesn’t matter what check-pivot you use, it’s going to lose to some set, so have contingency if possible.
• saving up a defensive Tera can help you get out of a sticky situation against offensive chien pao. Although be weary of them baiting a Tera and switching back out. For example Tera water great tusk can body press to KO on the turn it’s supposed to lose to +2 icicle crash. Likewise a Tera fairy gholdengo/rotom-w can actually survive crunch. Of course, if your Tera is still available, your opponent might correctly guess the defensive Tera and just use the other STAB, lol.
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understandably that’s a lot of text, please reply if you’d like replays, I’ll try and save some that demonstrate the key points.
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Small post but seeing some post againts Garganacl and Chien Pao ban, one thing that should never be mentioned is that "Well if you tera with it to beat counters, you wasted your tera"
Chien-Pao and Garganacl are by far the 2 best user of this mechanic, Tera Dark Chien Pao slicing through everything and Garganacl Defensive tera making it extremely difficult to beat. Theres almost zero downside to terastalizing these two pokemon, so if you can tera with these two, just do it.
Mons like Tera Dark Clodsire, Tera Valiant, Tera Kingambit, Tera Normal Dragonite have their massive downside like removal of key resistances
Chien-Pao and Garganacl are by far the 2 best user of this mechanic, Tera Dark Chien Pao slicing through everything and Garganacl Defensive tera making it extremely difficult to beat. Theres almost zero downside to terastalizing these two pokemon, so if you can tera with these two, just do it.
Mons like Tera Dark Clodsire, Tera Valiant, Tera Kingambit, Tera Normal Dragonite have their massive downside like removal of key resistances
The rain analogy is great. Pao is definitely a mon you beat in the same way, by keeping your offensive momentum up. Better to force progress against it rather than play it safe, because it’s pretty frail and if you don’t hit it, you will lose a mon to it sooner or later.
To me, it feels easier to play around than something like Chi-Yu, which had more confidence staying in to eat a hit before KOing back. Or Ape, which was nigh impossible to keep momentum against via u-turn or volt cause it just made him stronger.
Tera dark chien pao is almost never a waste. It can survive both BP (press and punch), isn’t as affected by hazards, obviously has more power, etc.
Other Tera types might be “wasted”, for example Tera ice is a lot more dependent on pulling weight once it’s been used.
the only context a Tera is “wasted” is when there’s opportunity cost for something else, example your clear smog Tera water amongoos can’t check the opponent Volcarona anymore.
Yeah I totally agree with this, Tera Dark Chien Pao is a great option on any team because a full Dark type > Dark / Ice in terms of weaknesses and Stealth Rock entry damage. Also like you mentioned certain priority moves like Bullet Punch can be handled and you don't have 4x weakness to Fighting and Pao has solid physical bulk (80). What makes it borderline uber is definitely the additional power boost it can gain with Dark type tera, which is insane it breaks through almost everything that isn't resistant to dark.
Correct, especially in regards to Chien Pao, which is fast and strong enough to warrant using Tera at any point if it's means invalidating a counter, that would definitely not be a waste.
For the most part there's almost zero downside to Teraing any pokemon, assuming you're doing it for the right reasons. It's just that compared to other offensive pokemon, those 'right reason' opportunties happen much more often Chien Pao. Any team with a pokemon that relives heavily on Tera for ubiqitous defensive reasons like Garg, Skeledirge etc, will for the most part benefit from teraing as soon as possible, because it's likely your defensive structure relies on them being able to switch in as that type. Garg wants to Tera quickly for the most part because rock is such an atrocious typing. Avalugg probably wants to do the same, but obviously Avalugg isn't close to being good. So this is all to say that pokemon with a high opportunity cost of not Teraing (and thus limiting your other team members) probably shouldn't be compared to something that Tera's quickly because crunch goes brr.
Sure all of these have massive downsides if you use them like you would Chien Pao, but if you're teraing at the proper moments, any downsides are extremely negligible. I think Valiant is a somewhat good comparison to Chien Pao in terms what a mon that abuses STAB Tera looks like when it's really fucking good versus when it's broken. Choice Specs Tera Fairy Moonblast is pretty insane, but Valiant checks and counters are super splashable and have great overall viability outside of their ability to check it. Meanwhile, Chien Pao's best counterplay are down in UU and RU. I just really don't think the idea that Teraing to what may be a worse defensive typing is some huge opportunity cost, because most of the time that single free turn from Gholdengo, Kingambit, Dragonite etc. when their typing is changed allows players to gain huge leads or just simply end games.
TLDR: Chien Pao can Tera whenever it wants because it's broken, it's not broken because it can Tera whenever it wants
Even though Greninja is much more likely as new event, I would like Alolan Muk, which certainly fits for poison theme:
-Bulky.
-Knock Off + Poison Touch.
-Only one weakness.
-Espathra check.
-Specs Pult check ( With Restalk).
-Gholdengo check
-No Gliscor in the meta ( main obstacle in SM outside of Band Ice Punch).
-Absorbs Toxic Spikes.
-Zone existists for Corvi.
-Can lure the counters (Pex and Garganacl) with Mean Look + Taunt + Covert Cloak sets. Can use the same set + Grass Tera vs Clodsire, Hippo and Dondozo.
-Cute.
-Does anti-drugs campaign by just existing.
Hopefully they do this type of events with regular Mons too, not just Starters. Alolan Muk is much more desirable for me to have in the meta than Greninja.
-Bulky.
-Knock Off + Poison Touch.
-Only one weakness.
-Espathra check.
-Specs Pult check ( With Restalk).
-Gholdengo check
-No Gliscor in the meta ( main obstacle in SM outside of Band Ice Punch).
-Absorbs Toxic Spikes.
-Zone existists for Corvi.
-Can lure the counters (Pex and Garganacl) with Mean Look + Taunt + Covert Cloak sets. Can use the same set + Grass Tera vs Clodsire, Hippo and Dondozo.
-Cute.
-Does anti-drugs campaign by just existing.
Hopefully they do this type of events with regular Mons too, not just Starters. Alolan Muk is much more desirable for me to have in the meta than Greninja.
i don't think dirge is as reliant on tera as garg. dirge has a bunch of weaknesses but it also has 7 resistances and 2 immunities naturally. fire's a better defensive type than people give it credit for. still a fantastic tera user, don't get me wrong, but i don't like to tera dirge if the opponent has something like scizor or iron moth in the back, whereas i'll tera garg right away 99% of the time
i personally think avalugg still has a place somewhere in ou that we haven't found yet. even with garg directly outclassing it in a lot of aspects, it still has insane physical bulk and rapid spin. also, unlike a lot of other "b-but it might be good this gen" mons, it's got precedent—it's found niches in past gens even without the ability to discard its garbage typing, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone made it work this gen somehow. so while it's definitely not actually-in-ou material and i'm not gonna be going out on ladder with it, i feel like saying it isn't close to being good is writing it off a bit too soon and it might make its way into some low spot on the vr at some point in the future.
aw hell yeah, give me slime shady the unrivaled please
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If the meta ever favors Slowking, Avalugg can use the snow boost to wall even super effective physical attacks and dish out heavy damage.
I am hoping and praying for my froggy boi to return home from war
magearna would be pretty sick but it's probably gonna be one of the legendary birds or something
dragonite was moreso problematic due to shed tail support from cyclizar, and now that it's banned, i don't think it's going to be as big of a threat as it once was prior to cyclizar's ban. it's fine now, really
gholdengo isn't exactly broken i'd say. it's extremely powerful and has a ton of useful traits that make it invaluable on most teams but it's not as restraining on teambuilding as chi-yu was, it's just an incredibly good pokemon and nothing really. gholdengo also sports common weaknesses to fire, ground, dark and ghost, which does hinder its defensive capabilities considering how common those types are
and i have no damn clue on why chien-pao didn't recieve a ban by now considering how ridiculously powerful it is coupled with its phenomenal speed tier and great STAB combination. it 2HKOs every pokemon in the game and doesn't get outsped by anything barring dragapult, who could never risk taking it on due to chien-pao having sucker punch/ice shard as priority. honestly really hoping we ban this pokemon sometime soon
Frankly I don't think they're going to go for legendaries at all until home. The first two picks have demonstrated at least some correlation to being "fan favourite" non legendary mons. Realistically they're probably going to stick to the pattern of starter pokemon final evos.
(If they did 1 per gen, they'd have enough for 6 more drops)
avalugg is passive asf.. sorry but why use it? its very expolitable esp on the special side, sure its unmovable on the special side but it invites everything else in
Avalugg can compress rapid spinning and defensive Body Press onto a single set that also has reliable recovery and a strong usable STAB. I think Hisuian-Avalugg will be an overall better mon once released, but to avoid theory monning I do think regular Avalugg does have some niche OU usage
Slowking support with Chilly Reception on Trick Room is where Avalugg becomes a menace, but I've only tested that specific archetype a little so take my comment with a grain of salt (I will be testing it more in the future, however)
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not as passive compared to other defense-oriented pokemon in the current metagame such as clodsire and toxapex, and yet those two pokemon see lots of usage and are considered very good in the current metagame. not everything has to have an offensive presence, and avalugg's isn't even that bad. avalanche and icicle crash are solid STAB options, with the former punishing any pokemon that doesn't OHKO and icicle crash dealing more consistent damage, not to mention its body press hits super hard coming off of its 184 defense. i agree that it's not that good in comparison to other physical walls but being passive is certainly not the reason why
FuturePort into a powerful Body Press is not readily walled, and this is obviously for stall so passive is nothing new there.
It's held back by Slowking being poor into the current meta, as well.
i'm sorry but how? its typing is worse, its stat spread is worse, it loses to so much more of the meta-relevant pokemon and it's even more reliant on terastallization. i really don't see this being good
Make ur assumptions to how long mag will last in the tier now trainer!
lmao no the fuck it won't. it's an ice/rock type. it'd need a box-legendary base stat spread to even reach uu. and its stat spread is objectively worse than regular avalugg's for every role that avalugg can reasonably play. strong jaw doesn't help because body press and rapid spin aren't biting moves and avalugg (either one) shouldn't be running any attacks outside of those and maybe one stab move. as for stab, mountain gale's stronger than boosted ice fang and there's no rock-type biting move, so strong jaw ends up being completely worthless on it. not that you should run mountain gale either, it's got 85 accuracy and a virtually useless effect because hisuian avalugg outspeeds exactly nothing.
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People, we really need to stop treating this line as an argument of anything. If anything were even close to being as restraining as Chi-Yu, It'd be banned already. That's how broken that thing was and any comparison to it makes any argument look worse.
As for Gholdengo, as I've argued before, it's not so much about it being broken at any particular point, but being too good at everything at the same time; being capable of doing anything from defense to offense to support while sporting that ridiculous ability. Don't think so much "Broken/not Broken", but "Healthy/Unhealthy".
FTR, I myself am not sure if I'd consider Gholdengo to deserve a ban. I'm sure it'll get suspected sooner or later and I'd take either answer because I myself am highly conflicted on it.
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Agree for Chien Pao, disagree for Garganacle.
Garganacle is greatly hampered by its typing and always appreciates Tera to do its jobs, but it may or may not actually gain something from it. Tera-Fairy makes him better in the ID+BP Corviknight 1v1, but that's still a pretty tough match for Garg and literally doesn't do ANYTHING for Garg against Gholdengo. Tera-Water helps against Gholdengo due to the resistance to Make it Rain, but it doesn't help against Corv and makes him share weaknesses with Dondozo, a mon any team needs an answer to anyway. Tera-Steel STILL makes it lose against Corv and now also makes it vulnerably to Skeledirge. And so on and so forth.
Dependin on situation and enemy team, your Garg may have Tera'd to change literally nothing on the match-ups it would face. If you could change what Tera Type to change into mid-battle, then yes there would've been no drawback, but that's not the case (now THAT would've been bonkers broken). The constriction here for the opponent is that they won't know what Tera your Garg is until you do it, but Garg's virtue is to always be capable of doing something against pretty much any mon, not to snowball out of control from a one-time read.
[DISCLAIMER: All mons cited here that "counter/check" Garg are assumed to have Covert Cloak. Nothing can check/counter Garg without it (or Magic Guard, but we don't have good mons with it available right now).]
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Whatever could you possibly mean, Ice/Rock only has 2 x4 weaknesses and that +10 Base Speed let's it outspeed OU beasts like Dondozo and Garganacle!! How could that possibly be bad? Not to mention it gets Strong Jaw, like Dracovish, rising his Ice Fang from 65 Power to a whooping 97
I think council next step in the right direction would be to Suspect Garganacl and Chienpao.
Chienpao is an incredibly strong breaker, many say its needed in the tier due to all the bulky/stally shit there is and I can see why they say it (although it also benefits this teams as he works as some kind of finisher or breaker for them too lol). It remained a bit in the shadows of ChiYu but now its unleashed and its the best offensive threat in the tier. Just mindless click crunch to win games with adamant cb. It does have many checks (assuming healthy enough) and it does help break some stuff but still, i dont think its really healthy having it. Weavile could come and to some degree fill the fast ice/dark niche.
Garganacl... While covert cloak KINDA shuts it down, its min maxed godlike stats with incredible bulk, OP ability and one of the strongest moves ever in Salt Cure, wearing down everything on its way while it protects or just switches/teras if threatened (hits everything, 25% to steel and water types... and it even deals decent dmg to flying/fires, wtf). (and it still has Iron Defense body press to muscle through some teams if the conditions are met)
Most people running cover cloak to try to consistently counter it already says it all. I used to think running a covert cloak user in my teams would be enough but... NO!!! Nacl teams have adapted to covert cloak and run AT LEAST 1 knock off user and 1 trick user so its relatively easy to get rid of the covert cloak user to unleash Nacl.
Personally i think both are very deserving of suspect and i wouldnt even bother if they got QB really. Nacl due to all this seems far more troubling than Chienpao imo.
Thanks for reading! wtf was GF even smoking when they designed all this crazy good/broken mons? Huge powercreep imo.
Chienpao is an incredibly strong breaker, many say its needed in the tier due to all the bulky/stally shit there is and I can see why they say it (although it also benefits this teams as he works as some kind of finisher or breaker for them too lol). It remained a bit in the shadows of ChiYu but now its unleashed and its the best offensive threat in the tier. Just mindless click crunch to win games with adamant cb. It does have many checks (assuming healthy enough) and it does help break some stuff but still, i dont think its really healthy having it. Weavile could come and to some degree fill the fast ice/dark niche.
Garganacl... While covert cloak KINDA shuts it down, its min maxed godlike stats with incredible bulk, OP ability and one of the strongest moves ever in Salt Cure, wearing down everything on its way while it protects or just switches/teras if threatened (hits everything, 25% to steel and water types... and it even deals decent dmg to flying/fires, wtf). (and it still has Iron Defense body press to muscle through some teams if the conditions are met)
Most people running cover cloak to try to consistently counter it already says it all. I used to think running a covert cloak user in my teams would be enough but... NO!!! Nacl teams have adapted to covert cloak and run AT LEAST 1 knock off user and 1 trick user so its relatively easy to get rid of the covert cloak user to unleash Nacl.
Personally i think both are very deserving of suspect and i wouldnt even bother if they got QB really. Nacl due to all this seems far more troubling than Chienpao imo.
Thanks for reading! wtf was GF even smoking when they designed all this crazy good/broken mons? Huge powercreep imo.
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We will probably have a survey in 10-12 days after the end of next week.
my guy, the most used mons in the meta get knock off and trick. this wasn't a recent development. you shouldn't be losing to knock off and trick in 2023
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