Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Guyoftheego]

Here's my takes on the mons on the survey. I'm definitely not the greatest player by any means, but I've had enough experience on the ladder that I think it's worth giving my thoughts here.

General Enjoyment - 3
I've had some amount of fun on the ladder, but the game currently being centralized around Pao is not fun with how one dimensional the pokemon is.

Competitiveness - 3

There's still a lot to iron out right now. Pao is the obvious one, but Zama-C snd Sneasler are both big walls to the tier being competitively viable right now.

- 5

I think its clear from how the meta has shaken out after HOME's release that the new mons added still do not curb Pao's power. With Mage gone, the entire tier is once again warped around the prescence of Pao. Its spammable STABs are still just as strong, its ability is still just as strong, and it can still abuse Tera just as well. Once this mon is gone I'll be happy and feel less constrained in the builder.

- 4

While not as pressing as Pao at the moment in my opinion, Zama-C still exerts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the tier. IDPress is insane, especially coming off of its cover legendary stat spread, and its typing combined with its stats lets it set up for free on the majority of the tier. I'm glad we tested Zama-C to see if it would work, but I think the answer was a resounding no.

- 3

Zama-H has a lot of the strengths of Zama-C, but I've found that its worse defensive typing and its worse stats have made it more managable, at least for the time being. Having a free item slot is definitely a plus, but I've found that its weaknesses, at least at the moment, to be exploitable enough to deal with semi-consistently. I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test of Zama-H in the future, but I think a quickban would be the wrong course of action as of now.

- 5

Sneasler in my eyes is not an overpowered pokemon, but it is a supremely uncompetitive one that as far as I'm concerned has no place in a competitive meta game. Enough people have already talked about how infuriating Dire Claw is, so I'll just keep this brief and say that the move's inherent randomness combined with Sneasler's kit being just right to abuse it makes me think it doesn't have a place in the tier.

- 2

With Mage's ban tanking the viability of Trick Room, I think Luna is in a pretty healthy place now. It's definitely an insanely hard hitter that can tear through unprepared teams, but its stabs are pretty exploitable due to their immunities, so there are plenty of switch in opportunities if you play your cards right. Needing to be burned to take advantage of Guts also dents its longevity quite a bit. It reminds me of Melmetal in SS post-CT, although I'd probably say that Luna is more exploitable than Melm is in that meta due to the aforementioned reasons.

- 2

At this very moment, I don't think Shifu is overpowered, but that could definitely change post quickbans. Swords Dance and Trailblaze are definitely great additions to its kit, but idk I've found that I can manage it pretty well in the current meta. I don't really have much to say otherwise, just keep an eye on it.

- 1

Screens are annoying, but like a lot of people say here I think that's more a symptom of the broken mons we have in the tier right now rather than because of Light Clay.

Some mons I want to talk about outside of the survey



Torn-T is a mon I've been consistently using on my post-HOME teams and I think its a contender for one of the most viable pokemon in the tier. Even without defog and knock a fast regen pivot is still great, who woulda known. I've alternated between fast utility sets with taunt and NP sets and both do wonders.



I don't think its out of the question to say that Glowking largely outclasses normal Slowking in all of the ways that matter. Glowking is a fantastic glue mon that can fit on most teams, wheather with the AV or FS/CR set, and I will not be surprised if normal Slowking drops down to UU as a result.



Legion-M is definitely a better nuke on rain with Tera Water Wave Crash, but I think Legion-F is pretty underrated. While 100 SpAtk isn't the greatest in the world, it still hits pretty well off of spec, and having a spammable ghost stab in addition to its water stab gives Legion-F a niche over Legion-M in my opinion. I'd reccomend giving it a try at some point as a specs breaker.

 

[MANNAT]

Zamazenta-Hero - 5
Many people have been saying that the hero is relatively balanced compared to Zamazenta-C; however, this line of thinking is asinine. With access to an item slot, it can run a nasty Substitute + Body Press set with increased potency due to its access to Leftovers. Access to an item slot also makes it harder to deal with in that the checks to the Body Press set completely differ from the checks to the Choice Band set, as switching Zapdos directly into CB Zamazenta can result in you taking a Stone Edge to the face. I don't really see why people are holding onto the delusion that this thing can be balanced, please get it out of the tier so that we can start playing Pokemon again.

Zamazenta-Crowned - 5
While Zamazenta-Crowned is more one-dimensional than its heroic counterpart, it is no easier to deal with. Immunity to trick, significantly higher bulk, and a Steel-typing makes it a lot more durable. Not to mention that it still has the ability to tera in order to turn the tables on Pokemon that are supposed to beat it. This horse, or dog rather, has been beaten to death, so there's not really much else to say. Please get this thing the fuck away from me.

Chien-Pao - 5
Systemic corruption (or endemic corruption)[19] is corruption which is primarily due to the weaknesses of an organization or process. It can be contrasted with individual officials or agents who act corruptly within the system.

Factors which encourage systemic corruption include conflicting incentives, discretionary powers; monopolistic powers; lack of transparency; low pay; and a culture of impunity.[20] Specific acts of corruption include "bribery, extortion, and embezzlement" in a system where "corruption becomes the rule rather than the exception."[21] Scholars distinguish between centralized and decentralized systemic corruption, depending on which level of state or government corruption takes place; in countries such as the Post-Soviet states both types occur.[22] Some scholars argue that there is a negative duty[clarification needed] of western governments to protect against systematic corruption of underdeveloped governments.[23][citation needed]

Urshifu-Rapid Strike - 3.5
Though this thing isn't necessarily quickban worthy, it's pretty busted and definitely worth a suspect test. Swords Dance sets are absurd at breaking down defensive teams and punching holes in bulky offense to boot (not to mention that surging strikes completely ignore screens). Choice Band sets might be even better, with their high immediate power and ability to function as an effective revenge killer with Tera Water CB Aqua Jet. This thing is extremely strong right now and would be my next candidate for a suspect test after the 3 above get quickbanned.

Sneasler - 3
Honestly Sneasler is a bit easier to play around than the above stuff due to its limited coverage, the only annoying things about are that dire claw can radomly cheese through non-steel answers and unburden Acrobatics sets can be frustrating to deal with when supported by screens. I wouldn't really ban this right now, but would be open to getting it suspect tested it. Dire Claw is a stupid move though so I wouldn't cry if it got banned.

Ursaluna - 1.5
Refer to this post for my initial thoughts on it. My thoughts regarding its fit on full trick room teams remain the same, but I think that it's quite strong on semiroom concepts. Being forced to run flame orb seriously cuts into its longevity and it can be pivoted around reasonably well with a lot of the options that we have available to us. If you're bad at Pokemon and switch your Dragapult into an Earthquake, it's not my problem.

Light Clay - 0
While I initially voiced support for banning this item on discord, I realize that it has only become a scapegoat and point of division distracting everyone from what the real issues are in the metagame. Dual Screens offense always charges to the forefront of the metagame when there are broken threats to abuse behind screens (see Zygarde in SM OU or Clark in SS UU). We should just focus on banning all of the broken threats right now instead of making a mockery of our tiering system by involving this in the discussions.

 

[Magcargo]

Galarian Articuno might need to go on the radar soon. Screens + Tera Blast + Stored Power make it too strong!

 

[Ctann]

i changed my mind on magearna. i tried to give it a chance but i've realized people to play to win so no one will use anything outside of that fuckin' stored power cheese set. unfort!

5
i don't think the power alone is what breaks chien-pao; it's the dual priority. it's really hard to use anything fun or execute game-plans when it checks 90% of the tier. i don't find it particularly interesting to play vs either. i consider chien-pao to be a creativity killer and there is no reason to keep it now that magearna is gone. i know i posted about keeping it in the past but i was just fuckin' around back then because i was bored. i literally voted to ban it once the vote actually went up kek

5
extremely centralizing, impossible to kill, and has a nuclear body press. all of its sets are stupid as fuck-- iron defense 2A + rest, iron defense 3A, rest-talk, agility + iron defense,... the trick immunity and godly special bulk means it can 1v1 stuff like dragapult, zapdos, gholdengo, and slowking-g, something hero can only dream of doing without screens support or burning its tera. run physically defensive on this by the way. i feel like people only call this "mid" because they use garbage ev spreads. the 128 base speed stat it has is a noob trap

2
with magearna banned it's pretty hard to pull off trick room strategies consistently. it's very dumb under screens however as one of the easiest noob sequences is leading screens pult, then going into ursaluna and claiming 2-3 kills. tera-water or -fairy lets it fuck with anti-screens counter-play such as surging strikes and infiltrator specs dragapult. i think the metagame has been adapting well though with rocky helmet usage as it simultaneously covers ursaluna and sneasler, another 'mon that is chill outside of screens

2
i don't find dire claw to be any more uncompetitive than static / flame body last generation. pretty high level replay from ojama's tour that highlights my distaste for SS as all it takes is 1 proc for the game to end on the spot for mimikyu stardust and i. these abilities can be activated by simply switching in unlike dire claw, which has a non-spammable type and requires you to be on the offensive. sneasler also has a lot of solid answers such as gholdengo, great tusk, dragapult, landorus-t, slowking-g,... sure a sleep can be dumb but it doesn't happen frequently enough to justify a quickban. the poison touch sets have been underwhelming from my experience, but i will admit the air balloon unburden set is annoying under screens because it allows you to fish with dire claw multiple times which normally would not be the case on a 'mon this frail. sneasler is not uncompetitive. it's just annoying. deserves a suspect test though!

3
punching glove, swords dance, & tera are big buffs for it and its counter-play is thin considering shit like toxapex lost scald and 'mons such as slowbro are mediocre now. very cringe with either screens or rain support. as much as i would love to give it a 4, urshifu-rs is a necessary evil for opposing screens teams and kingambit. this 'mon is 10x more scary than sneasler will ever be

3
this should be monitored closely but it has wider counter-play unlike its crowned counterpart. zapdos, scream tail, gholdengo, volcarona, iron valiant, and slowking-g are some top-tier 'mons that can check it as long as screens aren't up. zamazenta is basically an iron defense corviknight on crack but i don't think its effect on building is that egregious. you just need to be more mindful of your team's offensive profile / physical special split. dragapult is also the best 'mon in the tier right now (imo) and checks it comfortably with a status move. i think there is room to adapt to it as well. zamazenta's presence should force cheap shit like kingambit and baxcalibur to entertain tera-ghost for example. enamorus and hatterene are also good checks and beneficiaries of the magearna ban. hoopa-u is another 'mon that should rise in usage and i can see a choice scarf + hyperspace hole set being dope. these are just some ideas, we should find more.

i gave light clay a 4 i think. my rationale is would you rather ban 3-4 perfectly fine 'mons (including volcarona) just to preserve an uncompetitive, cheese item? it's a low collateral ban and i only see positives by deleting it. screens will still be viable with light clay banned, just not oppressive. the screens issue has gotten even worse post-magearna ban from my games on ladder so far and watching njnp's tour. i put articuno-galar in the other section by the way. calm mind / agility / stored power / tera blast-fighting or -fairy under screens is not fair

this is super close to my thoughts, agree with almost every sentiment

light clay is weird, banning it would mean the meta can naturally be more offensive since squeezing out that extra cheese on all the setup pokemon becomes harder

and apparently noone wants to run psychic fans and brick break

 

[Storm Zone]

Okay so i feel like i should speak on a couple mons that survived this last radar including the one that didn't,

Magearna: when i made the post on magearna i tried to defend it by taking away its most lethal weapon, but given the precedent, stored power cannot be acted on for some reason so, obviously this mon wasn't gonna stay and if it did it would cause a smogon riot literally.

Zamazenta-Crowned is an obvious 5: okay seriously the only hard counters to this mon are physically defensive volcarona/helmet tera flying gholdengo, everything else loses to the setup sets with the right coverage, it reminds me of ting lu, the only way it dies is if you sacrifice atleast half of your team to kill it, taking 50 from specs pult flamethrower is ridiculous , and on top of that the free +1 boost is just an extra insult to all other bulky pokemon in the tier. This should have been booted alongside magearna on the radar.

Chien Pao: also a 5, look i know i made a post defending chien pao in the past but it was because my homies asked me to give supporting points for it, look ive been to college i am doing/almost done a double major in computer science in my senior year, ive had some really difficult exams i mean exams that had me sleepless for entire nights sometimes weeks, ive played minesweeper on windows 7, ive played the world's hardest game parts 1 2 and 3 that stupid maze was really really hard, ive tried solving complex math equations in international math competitions in high school, and ive never EVER done something more difficult in my life than defending this pokemon, i spent about a net 6-7 hours looking for defending points for chien pao, and yet still even tho some being correct, chien pao's sheer power , speed , spammable stab, and double priority + tera, have continued to disprove them time and time again, and i think it is safe to say this pokemon is almost as deserving for ubers as chi yu, perhaps more because not even chi yu had double priority or had this much speed. It is beyond human comprehension why they voted this monster to stay in ou.

Zamazenta Hero: i give this a 4 because while being weaker than zamazenta crowned in typing and defenses, zamazenta crowned cannot hold an item, it has the one thing its crowned counterpart lacks which is versatility, which allows it to cover its checks like dengo and physdef rona with band + tera, and it has more speed than the crowned form and that speed difference matters alot in certain situations, for example dragapult uses modest specs or ada dd, it is outsped. It is not as bad as the crowned form still but it has a few edges to it that the crowned form does not have, so i dont see this pokemon staying long term but it doesnt deserve a quickban like its crowned counterpart, should be looked at later on when we see some changes in the tier.

Urshifu Rapid Strike: okay initially i didnt see this pokemon being problematic but, after playing a bit, i realised how much more powerful the new buffs made it, tera, sd, etc, surging strikes goes stupid in a tier without tapu fini, because pex and amoonguss are countered by glowking especially given its new pivot move alongside future sight, which leaves urshifu's main counterplay neutralised, its not as problematic as the pokemon i listed above, but it does deserve a suspect much later on in the tier, for now its a nice staple on teams , would hate to see it go, its a 3 for me.

Ursaluna: okay at the start, this pokemon was a 9999 for me, like unstoppable, i thought it would get the regieleki treatment, but then.. after playing with and against it for awhile, effective counterplay has risen because it can only function on trick room, atleast,,,, so i thought, i started noticing the oppression slowly coming back as this pokemon would live crazy moves such as specs magearna fleur cannon, banded tusk tera ground headlong rush, specs pult draco, +4 dragonite, at first it felt like alowak, powerful but only effective on trick room, but i noticed it has bulk like melmetal, so i feel like its a fusion of melmetal and alowak in bulk and power, while these mons are fine individually, as a unit, i think it deserves some action, not a quickban, just a simple suspect, i give it a 3.

Light clay: i give this a 4, the extension of the duration of screens is a big factor in making most mons broken, while people may compare it to damp rock, heat rock, smooth rock, those weather turns only benefit mons that are fit for that specific weather, the screens gives everything offensive a buff, its like 2x bulk since it halves all damage, i think it and stored power need to be looked into immediately, bulk up is not a fair comparison to stored power because last respects was banned when only 1 pokemon had it because we knew it was broken, Vert and i proved stored power to be broken when we dominated the ladder with articuno galar screens with stored power which was impossible to stop, so we know the move, and the screens, are the main problem , but as we know , all my arguments tend to age well, so i guess in a couple months or years yall gonna be saying im right huh, ill let yall find out for urselves.

Sneasler: ah yes i saved this for last because i have some arguments for it, first and foremost, its speed and attack are fine for a standard ou mon, unburden is really cool, but the controversial move y'all talking about is dire claw, im ngl at first i thought 50% was so bullshit and uncompetitive, but then i realise its 50/3 for each status, so 16.666% sleep, 16.666% poison and 16.666% paralysis EVEN distribution among each status it can pull, the only real oppression is sleeping them, because poison is fine and is already 30% on some attacking moves like sludge bomb, paralysis is already 30% on some attacking moves like thunder, but sleep, an attack move + sleep is kinda stupid but its still only 16.666% chance to pull sleep, but why do we complain about it?, Lets take it back to gens 6-8, didnt we say the same thing about scald at a point in time, we said 30% burn was not balanced, when it really was, now that the move is gone we miss it, so why is dire claw not balanced? The threshold for an unbalanced move should be 40% and up, look at togekiss in gens 6 and 7, even in SS, nobody complained about scarf air slash being 60% flinch, even tho it can win any game if it flinches you down with air slash, refer to the mimikyu stardust Paraspam RMT, this is more oppressive than dire claw, does that mean we ban this too? It is a higher chance than 16.666% sleep, and to make it even better there is a sleep clause so u cant even pull it twice, so whats the problem? Vert also made a great point by mentioning flame body and static, which both have a 30% chance to proc, it is still a higher chance than 16.666% sleep, so i dont see why we fuss about dire claw so much, also poison stab is not that spammable, it has an immunity and a whole bunch of resists in glowking, toxapex, lando, tusk, etc. I give this pokemon a 3, it deserves a suspect test mainly because of unburden + setup + tera coverage + dire claw but a quickban is just plain unfair.

These are my thoughts on the recent radar pokemon, i feel like the meta definitely needs shaking up, because when it does i think with stuff like hoopa u, enamorus, and thundurus, this will be a very nice meta in the future, and i look forward to the terastallization suspect where i HOPE it remains legal in ou as it keeps the metagame fresh at all times which is what SS was lacking.

 

[tommytt22]

The funny part about a light clay ban is that dual screens support a pokemon in set-up and that only takes 2 turns at maximum. After that the said pokemon should be in a position to win or blow through 2-3 opponent pokemon. Realistically screens would still do that job without light clay. It was an interesting thought given how many setup sweepers used dual screens this gen, probably not the answer though.

Lets take it back to gens 6-8, didnt we say the same thing about scald at a point in time, we said 30% burn was not balanced, when it really was, now that the move is gone we miss it, so why is dire claw not balanced?

My brother in christ WHO misses scald that wasn't balanced at all. That move made any water type a pseudo physical check because they could spam it and fish for a burn. As a move its alright but the distribution was gamefreaks biggest crime

 

[Red violet blue]

Chien Pao: 5, no counters,hard to revenge kill because of speed and priorities.
Zam Hero: Iron Press Sub leftovers, Choice Band, are clearly super strong, especially tera fire iron Press because even Dragapult can't handle it. This thing is too bulky, very hard to revenge kill, and is hard to counter. 5
Zam C: Same without item, but with better bulk and typing. 5
Urshifu: 3 hard to counter but I am not sure about this one. He is easily revenge killed by special attackers. He needs to run tera T-Punch or ice punch to beat his counterplay, but if he does so, he isn't running aqua jet so us easier to revenge kill. Habe a close eye on this one.

Sneasler: 5 because Dire Claw is broken, completely random and uncompetitive. Moreover, the mon is clearly good, as a poison touch pivot, a wallbreaker, an unburden sweeper with tera flying, so with Dire Claw, this mon has to go.

Light Clay: 1 Strong because of tera and broken mons
I think we should have a new debate about tera soon.

Ursaking: 3 Can KO everything, is hard to KO, but loses lots of HP with flame orb. TR is worse than before mag ban. Have an eye on this one, very hard to defensively handle.

Volcarona: 4 Tera Grass, Tera Ground, defensive, offensive, will o wisp.
The only good mon who can counter every Volcarona is Unaware Clodsire but perhaps it falls to wisp+sub+flamethrower+quiver dance (which seams to be a strange set).
It isn't enough. Almost impossible to revenge kill with tera. I've seen a team with Slowking, Heatran and Dragapult being destroyed by this. Slowking G is a set up fodder, toxa is killed by psychic and tera blast ground, skeledirge by tera ground, blissey is almost never seen, Dragonite can be burned. We're forced to take big risks, play strange moves like yawn, encore to beat this mon.

Hisuian Liligant: 3 Have an eye on this one. With tera, if he doesn't miss, he destroys everything, depending on the tera typing.
It has access to sleep powder to turn a mon into setup fodder, and grass types can't switch in because ice spinner.
Hard to revenge kill after one victory dance, because it resists to both aqua jet and sucker punch, and raises its defense.
However, he has many weakness, and is frail, especially on the special side, so it can be sometimes hard to setup.

Thanks for reading. I enjoy the metagame (7 or 8), I find it really fun, but it's uncompetitive (3), too many broken mons. Clearly it would be more competitive without these broken mons, tired to see them everywhere, I think many fighting type mons should be able to shine.

 

[Mega Breloom]

The last days I have seen way more Tusks and less Landos, I predict Tusk to be around top 4-5 at the end of the month and Lando around the top 10th, that if something crazy doesn't happen. Pao is going to be top 1 since it is staying 1 week more.

 

[Red violet blue]

Chien Pao: 5, no counters,hard to revenge kill because of speed and priorities.
Zam Hero: Iron Press Sub leftovers, Choice Band, are clearly super strong, especially tera fire iron Press because even Dragapult can't handle it. This thing is too bulky, very hard to revenge kill, and is hard to counter. 5
Zam C: Same without item, but with better bulk and typing. 5
Urshifu: 3 hard to counter but I am not sure about this one. He is easily revenge killed by special attackers. He needs to run tera T-Punch or ice punch to beat his counterplay, but if he does so, he isn't running aqua jet so us easier to revenge kill. Habe a close eye on this one.

Sneasler: 5 because Dire Claw is broken, completely random and uncompetitive. Moreover, the mon is clearly good, as a poison touch pivot, a wallbreaker, an unburden sweeper with tera flying, so with Dire Claw, this mon has to go.

Light Clay: 1 Strong because of tera and broken mons
I think we should have a new debate about tera soon.

Ursaking: 3 Can KO everything, is hard to KO, but loses lots of HP with flame orb. TR is worse than before mag ban. Have an eye on this one, very hard to defensively handle.

Volcarona: 4 Tera Grass, Tera Ground, defensive, offensive, will o wisp.
The only good mon who can counter every Volcarona is Unaware Clodsire but perhaps it falls to wisp+sub+flamethrower+quiver dance (which seams to be a strange set).
It isn't enough. Almost impossible to revenge kill with tera. I've seen a team with Slowking, Heatran and Dragapult being destroyed by this. Slowking G is a set up fodder, toxa is killed by psychic and tera blast ground, skeledirge by tera ground, blissey is almost never seen, Dragonite can be burned. We're forced to take big risks, play strange moves like yawn, encore to beat this mon.

Hisuian Liligant: 3 Have an eye on this one. With tera, if he doesn't miss, he destroys everything, depending on the tera typing.
It has access to sleep powder to turn a mon into setup fodder, and grass types can't switch in because ice spinner.
Hard to revenge kill after one victory dance, because it resists to both aqua jet and sucker punch, and raises its defense.
However, he has many weakness, and is frail, especially on the special side, so it can be sometimes hard to setup.

Thanks for reading. I enjoy the metagame (7 or 8), I find it really fun, but it's uncompetitive (3), too many broken mons. Clearly it would be more competitive without these broken mons, tired to see them everywhere, I think many fighting type mons should be able to shine.

Ouch, sorry about grammar mistakes.
Also, I prefer Zam H, because he is faster and can hold an item. Anyway, both Zam are too strong.

About sneasler, the fact Dire Claw can randomly poison or paralyse or make asleep, is uncompetitive because it's some kind of russian roulette. If it was only para or only poison, it would be fine. Only sleep, it would be really strong. The fact these are all possible makes it completely random, unpredictable. When a move can poison, we switch in on a poison or steel type mon, when a move can paralyse, we switch in on a slow or elektrik mon, when a move can make you fall asleep, then it's very strong, you must put your less useful mon.
Therefore, there is no switch in to dire claw, we won't run gholdengo and the item cloak on every team, it's too restrictive.
Except Gholdengo, steel types can't switch in because of close combat.

Sneasler counters can turn into setup fodders because of the chance to be asleep.
They can also struggle to beat him because of chance to para. They can be slowly dying because of poison.

Therefore, sneasler is too strong.

 

[MegaScizor32]

mind gaming Im curious on your reasonings behind your ou council votes pertaining a few mons. You voted No Ban on Chien-Pao which is one of the most over-centralizing mons in the meta game. Its fast, too strong, has double priority and possesses the ability to destroy its would be checks.

You also voted No Ban on both Zamazenta Hero and Crowned. Both who are very fast, outspeeding 90% of the meta and have the capability of walling every physical mon out there. They also can snowball into dangerous sweepers much how like Magearna was doing.

You also voted to Ban Urshifu-R and Ursaluna which, dont get me wrong, are strong mons but dont have an over-centralizing impact that the above mons have on the metagame. Imo they are much more manageable to beat/handle.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I gave Zama-C and Chien both 5's. Really wish the new threshold had been implemented prior to the last vote. I think Zama-H is broken and will pop up a lot more if it isn't banned and Zama-C is. I don't see much reason to keep any of them in the tier. Sneasler is a weird one to me. I don't think it's broken exactly, more uncompetitive. I would strongly support it being banned on those grounds. I think Ursaluna is worth keeping an eye on. Light Clay is an issue at the moment but only because there are too many broken mons in the tier. I don't think Urshifu-R is a problem right now.

 

[Ctann]

If sneasler sleeps a Pokémon in front of it, it’s almost equivalent to finch, if you count full paralysis, the odds are 21% approx

if it sleeps a switch in, you have a1/3 chance it’s less effective than a u turn. Most switch ins will retain their ability to switch into the pivot, and become temporary status absorbers

There’s lots of switch ins for it too, seriously lots, due to the limitations of poison STAB

these reasons why Fishing for hax is nothing like onece thought

I think it deserves a suspect at the very least, not a quick ban

 

[Eeveeto]

mind gaming Im curious on your reasonings behind your ou council votes pertaining a few mons. You voted No Ban on Chien-Pao which is one of the most over-centralizing mons in the meta game. Its fast, too strong, has double priority and possesses the ability to destroy its would be checks.

You also voted No Ban on both Zamazenta Hero and Crowned. Both who are very fast, outspeeding 90% of the meta and have the capability of walling every physical mon out there. They also can snowball into dangerous sweepers much how like Magearna was doing.

You also voted to Ban Urshifu-R and Ursaluna which, dont get me wrong, are strong mons but dont have an over-centralizing impact that the above mons have on the metagame. Imo they are much more manageable to beat/handle.

Not gonna lie, I almost fully agree with this council member.
As a note,I díd the survey yesterday and don,t remember what exactly I voted, but I think Ursaluna was 5, both Zamazentas and Light Clay 1, Chien Pao 4, the rest somewhere between, with Watershifu being higher than Sneasler.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Chien-Pao: 5 .I always have considered it a physical Chi-Yu that trades the high BP moves for a better speed tier and priority (which gives better match ups against offense). Pao got just better with Home, since the update I don't even have used tera with it not only for the fast nature of the current meta but also because now it is better to use ice moves or even sacred sword over crunch so the only real benefit you get from tera is removing the SR weakness, something that doesn't even matter if you run boots. This mon is just too good for OU even without tera, and even if people consider that it would be balanced without it, on DLCs it most likely will get buffed with tutor moves so with potential additions like triple axel or knock off this mon is not touching OU again.
Both zamas: 3. These mons are weird to me, people says that they can autowin in some scenarios and have very little counterplay buy at least I haven't lose to them yet. IMO they have several issues that makes them not as good for their sweeper roles, if they can't use body press they are screwed, especially because they are very set up reliant so with proper positioning they can't get easy wins unless they are facing against a team off set up sweepers, IMO stuff like Valiant or Volc are more consistent for this role for the level of super and positioning that the Zamas need. However, I see potential on future adaptions of sets for them, on screens they are bad (IMO) but on fat cores with wish support, toxic spikes and other stuff or just exploring more options outside the Iron defense sets they have a lot of potential to be super annoying and unhealthy with those stats.
Urshifu: 3. Pao overshadows him, but once Pao gets banned this guy will get the spotlight as one of the most potent breakers in the tier, not only because it will lose competition with Pao gone, but also because we will see more fat teams so the important speed tiers of the tier will be lowered so its main issue will be solved a bit. Basically the same that happened with Bax pre-Home, but with a better stab combo, I can see this guy being the first suspect test of the home meta (if the Zamas get quick banned).
Ursaluna: 1. That speed plus the lack of priority makes it easy to keep in check, without magearna trick run is dead so offense doesn't have to worry about this mon anymore. Fat teams might struggle with it for a bit, but after they don't have to bring 3 checks to Pao I can see them being able to adapt against this, especially with how exploitable its speed is.
Sneasler: 2. Dire claw isn't as good on this mon, isn't that spamable on an actual battle and most of the time is clicked fishing for the hax when there are better alternatives, might work sometimes but the lack of consistency is what makes it bad IMO. Reminds me the Ting-Lu and fissure debate on VGC, Wolfey made a good video about it that everyone can check to see a similar example of how the odds vs consistent plays effect a battle. Even if the formats and scenarios with these moves/mons are different, the main idea is the same and I have a similar conclusion to the one he has in that video about how a player must look for the plays should look for the strategies that have more consistency in this game that already has a lot of stuff you can't control.
Screens: 1. Screens being popular are just an indicative of something going wrong in the tier rather than the issue itself. We saw it on the early pre-Home meta, when stuff like Cyclizar and some abusers after the tera suspect were banned that play style got erased from the tier without even touching Light clay or the setters. That is because when 1 or 2 mons are busted the players are going to use them and look for ways to make it easier for them to win, screens, shed tail, memento, a terrain, an so on. But that showcases the abusers more than the strat itself. Doesn't matter how much people say it, but even without tera and screens support stuff like Mag isn't going to be balanced.

Those were my answers. Sorry for the bad grammar, I just got to my home like an hour ago and I'm super tired but wanted to post this now or else I will forget about it tomorrow.

 

[Ctann]

Not gonna lie, I almost fully agree with this council member.
As a note,I díd the survey yesterday and don,t remember what exactly I voted, but I think Ursaluna was 5, both Zamazentas and Light Clay 1, Chien Pao 4, the rest somewhere between, with Watershifu being higher than Sneasler.

can I ask this non sarcastically…

Is this the [phantom] stall bias everyone talks about? When it skews towards banning “hits hard against fat teams” over “warps the meta, reduces viable playstyles”

my guess is chi yu would be rated 6 out of 5 if it was OU legal right now and in your list.

just trying to make sense of it, since it doesn’t appear to be thinking based on principals of “not enough time in OU”, or something else.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Ursaking

What? Is that a new combination of Slowking and Ursaring?

 

[Lumi_Nati 31]

Please keep in mind that I only came back to the tier after not playing the tier for like 4 months, and I am pretty busy with school so I didn't get to play all that much, so my opinions might not be accurate (I mean no opinion is but yeah).

Fun: I gave a 7. While this tier has it's problems as I'll get into soon, I actually find it very fun. A lot of the new mons like Sammurott-H and Liligant-H amoung others are very fun to use, the return of Heatran and Slowking-G help give the tier fun defensive options, and even Chien-Pao, a pokemon I hate with a passion as I'll explain soon, it is super fun to use alongside Glowking. The only reason I only ranked it a 7 is because balance does play a factor in how fun a tier is for me, and as for balance... oh boy...

I gave balance a 3. In hindsight I should've probably bumped it up to 4 or maybe even 5 now that Mag is gone (idk why I still considered it), but even without it, the tier is not balanced imo. There are so many things you have to deal with all at once, and even with new defensive tools it's impossible to do so, not to mention that there are 2 pokemon that are still in the tier despite being extremely broken to the point that banning them alongside Mag or Eleki was justified.

Chien Pao: Easiest 5 of my life. People thought that with the new pokemon, particularly Zamazenta and Magearna, it would be more manageable. It wasn't, and now that Mag is banned, this is even more true. Pao did the same thing it used to. SD once and then have a good chance to outright win the game right there, or use CB to break through everything with its broken stabs. You can't beat this pokemon, the best you can do is try to play around it, which is nearly impossible considering how many variations the 2 main sets have (mainly SD) and how it can 2HKO almost anything with the right set. Screw this saber tooth.

Zamazenta-Hero: I haven't used it all that much, and haven't seen it all that often, but from what I've seen it do, I gave it a 4. It just hits so hard, is super bulky, but the main problem is it's speed. It's high speed means that you can't pressure it offensively all that well, and even if you could, it's defensive stats are just way too good for an offensive pokemon. Now that I'm writing this, I think that it's probably a 5 tbh. The is no reliable counterplay to it: walls get set up on or broken through with the sheer power of CB CC, and like I said before, you can't deal with it offensively either.

Zamazenta-Crowned: Clear 5 for me. You take base Zamazenta, a pretty bulky pokemon already, make it even bulkier, and give it an even better typing. It's a bit slower but still fast enough to outspeed most of the offensive metagame with some investment, which might not even be necessary because you can just take hits and setup on basically anything with a bulky set anyway. When I was saying that there were 2 Pokemon that should have been banned by now, Pao was the first one, and this was the other.

Sneasler: It's very hard to rate this pokemon. The pokemon itself is fine, but dire claw is such an uncompetitive move. I am one of the people who thinks that in old gens there was a realistic argument to ban scald (especially in gen 5) due to that move being uncompetitive, but dire claw is that much worse. That being said, unlike gen 5-8 scald, dire claw is only limited to Sneasler, so it's potentially not as problematic in my opinion, and I think that only time will tell how broken it really is, so I gave it a 3 - I don't think it needs to go immediately but we should keep a very close eye on it.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Probably the most fun returning mon for me personally. I feel like it's very strong under rain, and while there are options to play around it, both offensively and defensively, it's not always easy to do so because you have to deal with so many threats atm. Once some of the more overpowered stuff will go though, I feel like it'll be more manageable to find team slots that can handle it, so I gave it a 3.

Ursaluna: Just like Sneasler, I think that this is a pokemon that we will only be able to truly know how good it is after some more time. New bulky and powerful but slow pokemon tend to be very polarizing, and so are the opinions of people on them, especially in the first few weeks: some say they are broken, and some say they are terrible. When the tier came out this was probably like a 4-5 for me, and while now I think it's a lot worse than I initially gave it credit for, I still gave it a 3 because like I said before, this is one of those pokemon that take some time to see if they are good or not.

Light Clay: this item is annoying, but is it broken? I don't think so, especially now that Mag is gone. I think that most well built teams can beat screens if played properly. That being said, I haven't had much experience playing with or against screens. The only experience I have is playing on low ladder with an alt account and there is a possibility that at higher levels of play it can become an uncompetitive MU fish style like shed tail HO, so I gave it a 2 for now, though I wouldn't be too surprised if it does end up being problematic in the future.

 

[Eeveeto]

can I ask this non sarcastically…

Is this the [phantom] stall bias everyone talks about? When it skews towards banning “hits hard against fat teams” over “warps the meta, reduces viable playstyles”

my guess is chi yu would be rated 6 out of 5 if it was OU legal right now and in your list.

just trying to make sense of it, since it doesn’t appear to be thinking based on principals of “not enough time in OU”, or something else.

Chi Yu for me was broken but "overshadowed" by Annihilape. It was "just an average broken Mon" not the demon everyone painted it here. It would be 5, but not higher than that. To put the above example into context, Annihilape would be 10, I consider Miraidon to be healthier for OU than the monkey (though if Miraidon and some other Ubers roamed OU, Annihilape would be fine too).

I laddered last week a lot. I didn't use the same offensive teams everyone were trying, but my team wasn't Stall either, just an average balance team that tried to cover all offensive threats while breaking the defensive ones with my own offensive power. I didn't even go out of my way, 5 of my Mons were already OU even pre-home, 6th is a new Mon in the meta. So, I based my judgement out of my team and considered there are enough Mons that are similar (though not identical,after all, there is nothing similar to Great Tusk, for example) to the ones that I used.
Given that, I think Chien Pao is close to a broken Mon and Ursaluna directly crossed the line. It does need support, but I have seen that thing breaking everything in and out of Trick Room. I have seen Drifblim being used only to stop it, which is far worse Mon than Paldean Tauros, Dondozo, the now banned Magearna or Watershifu, used to check Chien Pao (despite which, the Mon probably is broken and will be banned).
Watershifu and Sneasler right now don't look to be priorities, but the former has been a cancerous Mon and versatile threat already in SS, so it should continue being monitored.
Meanwhile, Zamazentas? Seen those, they are not useless vs balance teams, but they are just a big, influential, semi-dominating threat, not more than that and not too different from pre-home Meowscarada, Baxcalibur or Dragapult. You do need to account for them, but I haven't seen them breaking the meta in the slighest. Iron Valiant is harder to switch-in into before you know the exact. Bulk is there, but only really offensive teams have to somewhat go out of their way to check the dogs, the rest of the styles are fine. Offensive threats that are good vs other offensive threats and not so much vs bulky ones are sign of a good Meta for me.

 

[MrE]

but the controversial move y'all talking about is dire claw, im ngl at first i thought 50% was so bullshit and uncompetitive, but then i realise its 50/3 for each status, so 16.666% sleep, 16.666% poison and 16.666% paralysis EVEN distribution among each status it can pull, the only real oppression is sleeping them, because poison is fine and is already 30% on some attacking moves like sludge bomb, paralysis is already 30% on some attacking moves like thunder, but sleep, an attack move + sleep is kinda stupid but its still only 16.666% chance to pull sleep, but why do we complain about it?, Lets take it back to gens 6-8, didnt we say the same thing about scald at a point in time, we said 30% burn was not balanced, when it really was, now that the move is gone we miss it, so why is dire claw not balanced?

Dude, nobody misses scald and it was always a bullshit uncompetitive move that was way too widely distributed and way too spamable. As for the rest of your post about Dire Claw you're really underselling the status roulette aspect of it, yes it is only 16.666% chance to sleep, but a para on the right mon can be just as crippling for a team structure as having something go night night and it gives out status HALF the time it hits.

Personally I don't think Dire Claw is too egregious as it doesn't want to click the move all that often and the mon itself is frail

 

[TheTraininator]

What? Is that a new combination of Slowking and Ursaring?

Galarian Slowking with Trick Room & Chilly Reception + Ursaluna.

 

[bdt2002]

I haven’t been keeping up with the OU metagame very much as of late just because I tend to enjoy playing tiers that are already better established. (That, and I’ve been busy studying Calyrex-Shadow’s dominance in Ubers as of late.) Knowing this, I have a question for anyone on the OU council who’s able to answer this. It seems like there was already a decision made to place Sneasler on the radar as opposed to testing/voting on Dire Claw, which is arguably the worst part about this Pokémon. I’m sure you guys have a reason for that, and I’m willing to respect this, but I am still curious on what that reasoning is.

 

[ShinyLucarioXD]

I wanted to take some time to formalise my thoughts and make a genuine analysis of my responses to the tiering survey. So far, Generation 9 OU has been my most successful tier, and I have been having a lot of fun playing with all the new Pokémon. Whilst the tier is not perfect, I do believe it is in an excellent position to redirect and achieve a better place in the metagame than at the moment. I want to commend the OU Council for their efforts and thank them for their transparency during this time.

So let's get right into my responses to the tiering survey:

Chien-Pao (5)

I will not be the first to say that I think Chien-Pao is very unhealthy for the current state of the metagame. I really wanted it banned pre-home, and I most certainly want it banned post-home. I believe choice-banded Chien-Pao to be the premier set, throwing out STAB crunches left, right, and centre. Not to mention how heinous Chien-Pao becomes with Terastallisation, and the fact that you are not even required to run jolly with a base 135-speed-tier is ridiculous. Chien-Pao does far too much damage and has far too little drawback to just mindlessly clicking buttons that I believe it has no place in our meta-game.

Zamazenta-Hero (5)

Personally, I am of the opinion that Zamazenta-Hero is far more oppressive than its crowned counterpart. The higher speed tier, compounded with the ability to hold a beneficial item, provides more variability as to what it can accomplish than the rather one-dimensional Zamazenta-Crowned. You can expect the traditional substitute + iron defense set and play around that before your team gets demolished by choice-banded close combat coming off a base 120-attack stat. It is one of the quickest Pokémon in the tier, and if it sets up too many iron defense's it can easily close out games. It is a nightmare to play against, and with the lack of sufficient answers to handle it, Zamazenta should be sent back to the Ubers tier from whence it came.

Zamazenta-Crowned (4)

Whilst I had voted a 4 for Zamazenta-Crowned, I had only elected to vote this way due to my belief that Zamazenta-Hero is far more problematic. I wanted to provide context within my voting to reflect my views. I will mention, however, that had I voted in a vacuum, I would have given a 5 to both Zamazenta fromes. I firmly believe that this Zamazenta forme is slightly more manageable in the tier due to its one-dimensionality when it comes to sets. However, just like the hero forme, it has every tool in its arsenal to close games out, given a turn to set up. It has a great defensive profile and outstanding bulk, giving it solid longevity, but at least no passive recovery due to the lack of an item slot. Zamazenta-Crowned is a very difficult Pokémon to handle with a lack of counters and should not be in the OU tier.

Sneasler (3)

Sneasler is a lot of fun, I really enjoyed using it at the beginning of the post-home meta-game, and I think it is a stellar combination of stats and abilities to make a fun Pokémon to mess around with. That being said, I do not believe Sneasler, in itself, is broken. It has some nice diversity with choice-banded sets and some fun unburden combinations, along with the ability to pretty much pick and choose its coverage as it pleases. However, we must address the elephant in the room, Sneasler's signature move, Dire Claw. Whilst I understand the hesitance from the OU Council, I do believe it would be a mistake to ban Sneasler and not Dire Claw. Dire Claw is inherently uncompetitive; the ability to have a 50% chance to have an essential game-ending status condition inflicted on the opponent with very limited counter-play is a nightmare to play against.

I would like to make a comparison to luck-related strategies, something akin to King's Rock or an ability like Moody. I believe the aforementioned strategies are inherently uncompetitive, and I would bunch Dire Claw in with that group. I haven't personally been on the receiving end of some Dire Claw nonsense, but I fear the day that I will. Dire Claw is the issue with Sneasler, and I would be far more supportive of a Dire Claw complex ban rather than a Sneasler ban if it were possible.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (4)

When I learned that Urshifu would be getting Swords Dance, I was immediately hesitant as to its place in the meta-game. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike has solid defensive profiling and fairly reasonable bulk, being able to make use of both of these characteristics to find easy ways to achieve set-up turns and potentially end games. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike is easily able to dismantle entire teams after just one Swords Dance through its signature move and the new item in Punching Glove boosting its damage output even more. Urshifu-Rapid-Strike is fast enough to outspeed most answers before they can do anything, and even if it cannot, it has STAB priority Aqua Jet to do more than enough damage, coupled with Urshifu-Rapid-Strike's excellent capability to abuse the Terastallisation far better than some other Pokémon. I do think that Urshifu-Rapid-Strike will become a problem once some of the other Pokémon get removed from the tier, so it only makes sense to consider taking action against Urshifu-Rapid-Strike at some point in the future.

Ursaluna (2)

I think everyone was expecting Ursaluna to cause some problems for the OU tier, and to no one's surprise, it did. However, much of Ursaluna's viability came due to the strength of Magearna and the tactical development of Trick Room into Eject Pack Fleur Cannon. Since the removal of Magearna from the tier, Ursaluna has had a mitigated presence in the tier due to the overall viability of Trick Room going down. Needless to say, Ursaluna is still a very strong Pokémon, and still has all the tools necessary to absolutely demolish teams. Ursaluna is a very strong Pokémon but needs a lot of things to go its way in order to impose itself in a game. Ursaluna is fine and competitively healthy, and I believe it will be a mainstay in our tier. I do not believe any action is necessary at the moment, and I doubt we will need to see any action in the future.

Light Clay (1)

Light Clay has had the tendency to get banned from tiers in the past, and I would not be opposed to reducing the viability of Reflect and Light Screen, but I see no reason to have it removed from the tier. I believe this suggestion was a response, once again, to Magearna, but Magearna is gone now, and with the lack of Shed Tail in the tier, screens strategies are perfectly manageable. Removal of screens would just be to reduce the viability of hyper-offensive playstyles, so I do not know how beneficial the removal of Light Clay would be to the tier. I am just not convinced it is the right action to take when we have other, more pressing issues that need to be addressed.

Conclusion:

Thank you for taking the time to read through my thoughts. They are probably not as cohesive as I want them to be, but I think I manage to get most of my points across as well as I can. I hope that we see some more action from the council in the future, and I am very grateful for the decision to reduce the required votes in order to take action on issues. I thank the OU council for their time and I am looking forward to keep playing this meta-game!

 

[YubelVT]

I feel like everyone is missing the mark with Sneasler. Dire Claw is bullshit, no question, but what makes Sneasler truly broken in my eyes is the Unburden set. I got more experience playing against it and any game with Seedler (Grassy Seed Sneasler) is super swingy one way or the other, which isn't very fun. Like it's a better Hawlucha, and Hawlucha was already difficult to deal with in simplified gamestates. Granted this is based on past gen (7 specifically) experience, but like, Hawlucha will probably rise again if Sneasler is banned because again, Seedy Unburden is extremely difficult to answer a lot of the time. Seedler doesn't even require swords dance to hit hard, it has an actual attack stat.

 

[Wesley23675]

I feel like everyone is missing the mark with Sneasler. Dire Claw is bullshit, no question, but what makes Sneasler truly broken in my eyes is the Unburden set. I got more experience playing against it and any game with Seedler (Grassy Seed Sneasler) is super swingy one way or the other, which isn't very fun. Like it's a better Hawlucha, and Hawlucha was already difficult to deal with in simplified gamestates. Granted this is based on past gen (7 specifically) experience, but like, Hawlucha will probably rise again if Sneasler is banned because again, Seedy Unburden is extremely difficult to answer a lot of the time. Seedler doesn't even require swords dance to hit hard, it has an actual attack stat.

This I agree. honestly the last time I pointed this out, ppl just went off discussing aboutt dire claw lol despite the fact that I specifically said the problem was unburden grassy seed. plus tera flying as well lol, boosts acro and grants ground immunity, can literally set up against lando. but tbh even without tera flying, it can eat an earthquake, especially when u have defense boost plus grassy terrain, set up swords dance, and retaliate.
only things stopping it is gholdengo if no ground tera blast or unaware users such as dondozo and skeledirge. Although I think dire claw is problematic in the sense that it can actually shut down your unaware check or whatever, the main problem I think is the unburden set. What do you guys think?

 

[MrE]

I feel like everyone is missing the mark with Sneasler. Dire Claw is bullshit, no question, but what makes Sneasler truly broken in my eyes is the Unburden set. I got more experience playing against it and any game with Seedler (Grassy Seed Sneasler) is super swingy one way or the other, which isn't very fun. Like it's a better Hawlucha, and Hawlucha was already difficult to deal with in simplified gamestates. Granted this is based on past gen (7 specifically) experience, but like, Hawlucha will probably rise again if Sneasler is banned because again, Seedy Unburden is extremely difficult to answer a lot of the time. Seedler doesn't even require swords dance to hit hard, it has an actual attack stat.

Hawlucha had already fallen off to UU before home, I highly doubt it rises again if Sneasler get banned.