Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[WildWave]

Notable things I put down

Retest for a Volc at 5

Gambit 4/5, and Sneasler 5/5.

Quick Claw needs to be QB

Yeah I think I’m in the same boat as you. Everything that I’m concerned about is within this survey. They even included Baxcalibur and H-Samurott. Two Mons that I felt was also suspect worthy. I’ll probably wait until the end to fill out mines since last time I jumped the gun and didn’t address the other issues I wanted. lol

One thing I’m definitely gonna put down is for a double ladder when suspect testing Tera . Preview, No Preview.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Notable things I put down

Retest for a Volc at 5

Gambit 4/5, and Sneasler 5/5.

Quick Claw needs to be QB

Man people really had to spam the shit out of quick claw and getting it banned :( It was such a funny item

Unsure if Gambit needs is broken with Zamazenta around. I feel it's borderline but not explicit yet

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

I am very much so expecting either a volc retest or tera test. i would like volc to be retested first and tera after.

My opinion still stands that volcarona was NOT a problem, and having it in the tier would help with the constant fairy + gambit spam right now.

Tera doesn't need a ban, or a restriction. its fine as is, The way i look at it is that tera is THE meta, it is THE thing people need to worry about. With months of playing and building, i can safely say that tera is perfectly balanced, its just a very unique mechanic that requires a long time to get used to.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWPdrX0vXYaTqV9vpqsbQ1O8eS8TdhVqEwxYaMvN0og/edit?usp=sharing
Made this doc back when Team Asia was still in wcop as a guide for tera, its really helpful so give it a read if you want.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

y'know, now that i think about it, a pretty decent number of mons do get confuse ray…

and confusion has a higher chance to proc than quick claw or a scald burn…

Shit I better abuse sand attack while I still can

 

[ochoagenalyn]

I think a Volcarona retest should be the least of our priorities right now honestly. Not only do we not have sufficient informarion on how it performs in the current meta, there are far more problematic things that we need to get out of the way and that includes Tera, which we should re-suspect like right now.

Imo it should be Tera > Sneasler > Garganacl > Kingambit. Baxcalibur and Iron Valiant are fine for now.

Idk what Quick Claw and Samurott Hisui were doing on the survey honestly.

 

[KaiZ]

With Zama not being banned in OU after the sus test just reminded me of the suspect test in Natdex OU where everyone thought it was OP until the sus test ended will it be the same here?

 

[showdownperson]

Shit I better abuse sand attack while I still can

Time for the good old fashioned pocket sand

 

[Mega Breloom]

Because one is on your terms and one isn't. The point I am making here is that they are fundamentally incomparable because even if both roll to see if the opponent gets a status effect, it's not the same person initiating both rolls. Against Static, you are the one who decides if you are going to roll the dice and see if you get a status. Against Dire Claw, the opponent is the one who decides if you're going to roll the dice and see if you get a status. Regardless of where you stand on if either of them are overpowered, it's really dumb to pretend that this huge difference between the two doesn't matter and that they're basically the same thing.

Both are in your terms, when you make your team you can make prepare for both if you want, but just like putting stone edge over ice spinner in Tusk is as suboptimal as something like convert cloak defensive Lando but the point is that you can actually prevent both by commiting in teambuilding, just like you put boots on some mons to avoid hazards, the only difference is how often you see that element you are preparing for. You also can prevent Sneasler clicking dire claw by positioning yourself in a way it can come, just like a physical booster Valiant user wouldn't come in into the field until Zapdos has been KO or at least put in range where you only need to hit it once to reduce the odds of getting para'd. I just find weird why one is considered unhealthy and the other not when it matches and building you can make choices to avoid the hax (the reason why I don't consider those banworthy, if I happen to get haxed by those is more my fault than my opponent for not getting in a position where it can happens but also for my team to no have a way to prevent it).

Man people really had to spam the shit out of quick claw and getting it banned :( It was such a funny item

Unsure if Gambit needs is broken with Zamazenta around. I feel it's borderline but not explicit yet

It is weird, one of the main argumments to keep Zama in the tier was because it deals with Gambit so I don't get why a Gambit ban is still on the table. Or at least why there are still too much support for it.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Particularly I won't mind them, but if dire/quick claw get into it then static and flame body should be there just for consistency on the discourse about the "getting rid of the rng fish" elements.

Nah they aren't remotely on the same level. A stray burn or paralysis from Moltres or Zapdos isn't nearly as game breaking and there are MANY ways to play around both abilities. If you use a contact attack on one of these Pokemon you are assuming the risk of getting status. It's not about being "consistent".

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Nah they aren't remotely on the same level. A stray burn or paralysis from Moltres or Zapdos isn't nearly as game breaking and there are MANY ways to play around both abilities. If you use a contact attack on one of these Pokemon you are assuming the risk of getting status. It's not about being "consistent".

Indeed. People spam Dire Claw to fish for status based purely on 50/50 luck. People don't switch in Moltres and Zapdos mindlessly for static or flame body.

 

[Rootb]

It is weird, one of the main argumments to keep Zama in the tier was because it deals with Gambit so I don't get why a Gambit ban is still on the table. Or at least why there are still too much support for it.

It does help deal with Gambit. But it's still not enough to kick it down a tier, which is an indictment of Kingambit far more than it is one of Zamazenta or Tera.

Tera definitely helps the bastard overall, but nothing that strong + that slow should have a 120 BP priority move.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Nah they aren't remotely on the same level. A stray burn or paralysis from Moltres or Zapdos isn't nearly as game breaking and there are MANY ways to play around both abilities. If you use a contact attack on one of these Pokemon you are assuming the risk of getting status. It's not about being "consistent".

It can be a game ending scenario for the user if doesn't get the proc and a lot of players relly on that for some threats, I can't see why is that different from 1 dire claw proc being enough to end a game, in both cases if you out yourself in a position where you can lose because of the rng speaks more about your team/plays than the rng itself.

Indeed. People spam Dire Claw to fish for status based purely on 50/50 luck. People don't switch in Moltres and Zapdos mindlessly for static or flame body.

Bro, even some entries of the strategy dex tell you to do that

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

quick claw being on the survey seems like a knee-jerk reaction to a meme team actually performing well. if anything, it shows how good screens offense is that you can just run a team with 5 quick claw mons and still break 2000 if you're good. the item's fine

i think gambit is problematic but definitely not quickban-problematic. garg isn't even close to being a problem anymore. samurott-h has turned out to be exactly as annoying to deal with as i thought it would, but i don't think it's broken, just irritating. i think bax is very strong, but i definitely haven't struggled against it like some of the other things on the docket, so i personally don't consider it banworthy right now. same with valiant, i can see the strength but i don't think it's broken. sneasler and gambit should probably go

retesting volc shouldn't be a priority right now. i would have preferred a suspect over a quickban, and after all else is said and done i wouldn't be opposed to a test, but honestly i'm just glad it's gone

something definitely needs to be done about tera, and i think tera preview is the way to go. i could explain my reasoning—and there's plenty of thought i've put into this, i have an actual degree in this sort of thing—but enough discussion has been done about the subject that i don't feel like i have anything new to add to the conversation

as for the only important question in the survey, i wonder if it's possible to tap alpharad for a fight night

 

[Delibird Heart]

Quick question, what made you do this? Not judging, just asking.

For the longest time, I wanted to make a successful team including Slowbro-Galar, and I always thought screens was the way, as it gave it more chances for procs. However, I couldn't really build a good team around it as a sweeper, because it was kind of unreliable. I got to thinking about how I could maximize the proc odds even further than just slotting it on a screens team. So then I realized the only way to make it more reliable was to think outside the box and add more OTHER mons with qc. Pretty much, I think. I don't EXACTLY remember how it happened, but I remember thinking about building with slowbro-G since last gen, and ever since he returned this gen.

 

[showdownperson]

For the longest time, I wanted to make a successful team including Slowbro-Galar, and I always thought screens was the way, as it gave it more chances for procs. However, I couldn't really build a good team around it as a sweeper, because it was kind of unreliable. I got to thinking about how I could maximize the proc odds even further than just slotting it on a screens team. So then I realized the only way to make it more reliable was to think outside the box and add more OTHER mons with qc. Pretty much, I think. I don't EXACTLY remember how it happened, but I remember thinking about building with slowbro-G since last gen, and ever since he returned this gen.

Fair enough, better get as much use out of it as you can before the ban happy council removes it

 

[Narmy]

Omfg yall really considering quickbanning quick claw?
What is this a kings rock situation again lmao

 

[RoyalDispenser]

5 but borderline tempted to say just reverse the QB instead of a suspect test. There's enough support that it will likely drop regardless, especially now that zama is staying as volc is a legitimate check to a lot of the key threats in the metagame while restrained from 6-0 scenarios due to the sheer amount of pokemon it needs to be able to break past that actually wall and/or beat it after a boost.

Tera: 5, but seriously its going to happen sooner or later.. I'd rather test this and get it over with even prior to volc, every suspect test from here on is going to have discussion bottlenecked by 'tera is the problem' and until we stop procrastinating that inevitable suspect the metagame will have no closure on whether it should stay or not, balance around it or not, or satisfy the playerbase that it was re-analyzed regardless of the outcome they'd have to accept.

My only issue with banning tera is the outcome it has on lower tiers but smogon's philosophy has always been if it breaks numerous mons then the mechanic is the problem, its broken a lot of OU mons (unless you wish to unban volc and prove tera is fair and balanced by letting it stay while voting no ban tera) and currently most of the suspect lineup ties to tera easing their setup opportunities or removes their shutdown options.

2, for the memes but I don't find it a priority rn. Again a lot of 'is this tank broken' arguments will boil down to how it uses tera defensively to become fatter and face tank would be counters as it melts them with salt cure. Focus on tera first, reassess after the result.

- H 1, overrated tbh. Its a really cool mon in the meta but I genuinely don't think its meta defining, it currently solo buffed spikes but it has its revenge killers, boots dont give a shit, and its frail.

3, if we didn't outright QB dire claw before, then I don't think its a priority bar the fact there's a shit ton of RNG mechanics we're suddenly bringing to attention. The monoclaw team sounds more like a funny 'this actually happened' scenario then something legitimately broken, so unless apparently everyone is abusing RNG and RNG has to get the boot I see no emergency here with sneasler. Sneasler sticks out more to me than those strictly because sleep is involved.

Quick Claw: 1, I still think this is a big joke until I actually run into it, and the fact I haven't yet in memelo I think I'll manage just fine if it doesn't get booted. The precedent it makes is also concerning cause wheres the line in the sand? I see t-wave royally fuck me sideways more than QC.

The rest: idc 1 ig, just do tera first and I want volc back. Even kingambit will fall off in a volc meta, and will fall off if tera did get banned, we'll never know until those environments are tested.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Honestly, I find this survey way more difficult to rate things for. Except retest Volcarona.

After playing an absolute ton of Freedom cup these past few days I've come a conclusion.

OU should have an item clause. I've found having to manage what mons have what items completely changes the balance of the game and makes it a lot more fair. Especially when you can only have one Boots mon, one Leftovers mon, and most importantly one Booster Energy mon and it also brings a greater variety to the tier IMO using pinch berries, resistance berry's and other items I'd never normally use.

That is why you folks should use the survey now and put "item clause" as something to look at.

 

[Cheryl.]

I voted a 2 on this mainly factoring in Tera because Tera Volc is unfun. I'm not opposed to bringing it back before the Tera suspect, but I'm not gonna lie if we waste 2 weeks discussing Volcarona instead of focusing on bigger matters, that's just lame as hell. The community is 100% supporting an unban, so might as well reverse the QB immediately instead of wasting time, imo.

3, while I think a part of its recent success comes from people forgetting it existed post-Home, I do feel like Curse or Iron Defense sets on this have always been a bit too polarizing when combined with Salt Cure and the option of Tera. Like yeah, if your team gets stonewalled by a Tera Water Defense boosting Garg then it could use some edits, but man is having to build for it REALLY constricting sometimes. SR sets are baby food though lol, good but completely fine

4, the highest I voted but honestly my mind is fully focused on trying to suspect Tera first before any of these damn mons lol. Gambit is arguably broken without Tera, but ohhh my god no no no to this with Tera Flying, Fairy, Fire, Ghost, blah blah blah. This thing lategame is just inevitable and while it does add some positives to the tier, it really is a bit TOO good at what it does. idk though, Gambit is cool but kinda broken ahhh

using Dire Claw on this disqualifies you from the lunch table, go sit in the corner.

you guys have GOT to get on the Defog Decidueye-Hisui train....

Quick Claw is funny, Tera should be suspected before anything, please don't be that dude pushing up their glasses in the replies over mentioning Tera btw we're all just trying to play game. and I like my game without Terastalization

 

[Eeveeto]

No action on Tera, no action on Quick Claw, No Volca retest.
5 for Garganacl, Samurott, Valiant and Baxcalibur. 3 for Kingambit, 1 Sneasler.
Additional suggestion: Gholdengo, fuck that Mon.
Won't elaborate.

 

[Dreadfury]

My votes all come with the caveat that I am very, very, VERY anti-Tera. I really and truly want that shit gone as it's become increasingly apparent that it's making this metagame a lot less stable than folks expected last time it was tested. If I had to vote on Tera on the same 1-5 scale as the mons polled about thereafter I'd hack Google Forms for the sole purpose of giving it a 6 or 7. I hate hate hate this mechanic.

I voted a 4 (I think that was on the higher end of "I want this back?") on this one; I think the baseline Volc brings a nice defensive profile to the table that keeps all the Valiant/Enamorus-I Moonblasts a little more honest. I think Volc is problematic exclusively because of Tera, but I also don't think the metagame has significantly improved with its departure from OU like I had hoped.

I voted a 3 on this one; I think Garg's problematic for sure, with its extreme WCoP success showcasing this quite well, but I also think Garg is MOSTLY a symptom of a larger problem (Tera, and the hazard-centric metagame overly incentivizes Boots, which means there's fewer Covert Cloaks around thus ensuring that Garg can rack up ludicrous amounts of passive damage while punishing one of the few Covert Cloak users not named Cresselia pretty hard with a strong EQ.

(I'm lumping Quick Draw, and not the mon specifically, in with this as well) I voted a 5 on this just out of sheer unadulterated hatred for and disgust towards gimmicks like this. I don't think it's broken in the slightest, but I don't think inconsistent matchup-fishy bullshit like this is ever worth keeping around. You could quickban this overnight and not make an announcement about it and not a single thing of value would be lost (although obviously that probably shouldn't happen). I hated this since 2020 and I still hate it now. Speed is such a fundamental part of competitive play and any item that allows a slow mon like Ursaluna or Iron Hands or Enamorus-T or anything strong, bulky, and held back by terrible Speed to just roll a Stone Edge's miss chance of defying speed tiers should never in a million years be acceptable or okay. Fuck Quick Claw.

I voted a 3 here as well; I think Kingambit's unfortunately a necessary evil, but it's certainly problematic in a Tera metagame due to how drastically it can flip matchups and sweep off a single turn, and WCoP saw a LOT of Kingambit sweeps against what would seem like borderline impossible odds. But at the same time, the highly consistent Gambit+Tusk core is so useful defensively in the face of such a volatile, inconsistent metagame since Kingambit offers such a powerful defensive profile that many teams would sorely miss. I think Tera is, as is the case with the other mons, the root of the problem here.

I think I gave this a 2? It's obviously really good and Dire Claw is a move that's about as stupid as Quick Claw, but I also think that without Tera this thing would be a lot more manageable since Tera Flying/Ground/Ghost/Dark allow it to muscle past many or all of its counters with relative ease.

I think I gave this a 2 as well? When it's good, it's really good, but I also think that it suffers from some extreme 4MSS now that Encore (an admittedly crazy good option) is seeing tons of use across multiple Booster variants. I also think that Tera makes this mon's obscene coverage scarier than it should be since it has so many viable options to give STAB to.

I gave this a 1; I think this mon feeds into a larger hazard problem brought about by (a mon I'm starting to think might be problematic itself, despite being a very important part of the tier defensively and offensively) and an extreme lack of hazard control that isn't Tusk. I think the mon's an interesting addition to the tier, and the reason why its Spikes feel so oppressive is mostly because of a mon that ensures said Spikes are damn near permanent.

I think I also brought up ; I don't think it's actually too problematic, but I think that the tier kinda struggles to find consistent defensive answers to the combined presence of Enamorus and Valiant in the teambuilder. You have to respect the hell out of Valiant's Speed and super effective coverage, but you also have to respect the hell out of Enamorus's immediate power alongside such amazing neutral coverage in two moveslots that it can run a LOT of options as well. I think these mixed attacking Fairies are super interesting parts of the tier, though.

 

[Alternator]

Here's something I think we can all agree on: we need to get Temp6t back on Fight Nights.

Bringing a level 1 Lechonk was amusing, yes. Managing to make it the centerpiece of a victory, though? That's perfection.

 

[Ctann]

Tera is definitely not inherently broken, clearly if you have amoonguss, zapdos and greninja using Tera, we have no problem.

it’s a vote of preference.

-

The thing with not doing any action on Tera.. is that you’ll create a domino effect very quickly

kingambit is broken with an unrestricted Tera , it could potentially be broken with a restricted Tera as well.

On gambit

You literally need a total of 4 Pokémon to beat kingambit: 1. Something to make it come out and take damage as early as possible, 2. Something that can status, sub, or similar, 3. Minimum 2 pokemons that resist sucker punch and can at least do 60% back on a neutral hit.

Unfortunately stacking checks doesn’t work as it has too many viable Tera types.. example: +3 zamazenta-h faints to a +2 Terablast flying/fairy it’s supposed to check

but there’s a small bottleneck of options that are preventing ghost spam running rampant.

Continuing with the example: kingambit going will improve viability of gholdengo and dragapult.

suddenly you have dragapult teetering over the edge

Once dragapult gets the hammer, the new de facto speed control, zamazenta-hero rises in viability. It would potentially be next on the chopping block.

and so forth. There’s more examples, like less kingambit hogging the teams Tera will mean more baxcalibur… suddenly there’s air balloon steels on every team.

So whilst it’s nice if Tera stays, you’re likely to have 5+ bans at a minimum, and these are all what most call “meta staples”

there’s Volcarona as an example, with its high viability resistances

there’s kingambit, with its high viability resistances

there’s dragapult, with its high viability resistances and speed control..

maybe gholdengo would get the axe when it’s the supreme ghost.. with its high viability resistances

many would argue urshifu RS would be potentially OU with its high viability resistances in a Tera restricted meta.

you can see the chain effect.

—

I’m not talking without substance by the way, the moment urshifu-RS was banished to Ubers… kingambit became completely dominant again, you could witness it’s rise in OU in the immediate days after!

so ^ that is an example of the domino effect

—

the question all need to ask themselves, is, do you prefer more diverse Pokémon’s in OU, or unrestricted tera?

 

[MrE]

On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?

8, Mons is fun

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?

7 (but it's a light 7.5), Not convinced that Zama-H isn't broken but I guess people disagree and nothing else is obviously broken like Bundle or Leki for example, whatever is left is suspect test worthy at best.

Do you feel any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?

Yes - I'm not convinced it actually is broken but I voted yes to this as it needs suspect testing if only because of how much crying there is constantly. It'd be nice to have the thread not polluted with Tera talk 247.

Do you feel any tiering action at all is warranted on the item Quick Claw?

No, it's a stupid gimmick that's worse than TR, Delibird Heart's team is more of an example of how strong screens are and how many good bulky breakers we have as apposed to this item being bullshit, will fade away soon once the hype fades.

Do you feel that a retest of Volcarona is warranted in the current metagame?

5, But let's not even bother with a suspect test and just reverse the QB, it wasn't broken and the vote to ban it was a mistake imo.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Kingambit?

3, Makes end games scary for sure but there are so many good physically bulky mons keeping it in check that often all the terrifying reverse sweeps occur due to the opponent playing poorly and losing or letting their physical mons gets chipped down too much.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Garganacl?

4, This shit makes progress way too easily and gets too many free turns thanks to SC to Curse or ID up becoming an un-killable monster that sweeps super easily.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Iron Valiant?

3, lots of scary sets makes it hard to scout and scouting it is usually the only turn it needs against you to be set up and GG, bringing back the moth balances out this mon a fair bit.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Sneasler?

I want to say I voted 2 for this but I can't remember now, it's a 2 or a 3. I find the crying about Dire Claw to be a bit silly as Dire Claw is NOT what makes this mon potentially broken, poison is a crap offensive type and Sneasler rarely wants to click it let alone it being a spam able move, the truly scary set is unburden acro CC SD coverage.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Baxcalibur?

1, Scary breaker for sure but this isn't even half as broken as what's already come before in this survey, or things not even on the survey like Ursaluna, Pult and Enamorus.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Samurott-Hisui?

1, lol why is this here?

Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?

Mentioned Pult, Ursaluna and forgot to mention Enamorus. Ursa as it really cripples Stall/Balance and we banned Ape for similar things so why not this? (FREE THE APE! ). Pult and Enamorus are the same story as Valiant with all the scary threats but scouting is less painful against these 2 than Valiant imo.

 

[Hot N Cold]

volcarona 3/5 no strong opinion about getting retested because I think is broken with Tera.

kingambit 4/5, I put this thing at same volcarona level. you need to overprepare against this thing in an unhealthy level, thats why great tusk + offensive fairies are everywhere, then encore, strong priorities and secondary fight types such zama.

samurott-h 1/5, kinda forces you to use hazard remover on every team or spam boots / levitate / flying mons but is fine.

quick claw - no action, honestly I think this is more of a trend than an actual problem, players in tournaments don't use this item because is purely based on luck. Also actually I find better this item on regular teams than on full teams, full QC teams focus entirely on getting lucky to win while use of this item on regular teams on mons such great tusk or gambit can exploit the surprise factor and if doesn't work still win. thats the way to use this item imo

everything else is a 2/5