Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[dolivar]

also, to provide some context for everyone, here's the percentage of ou mons in each gen that debuted in that gen, just to compare with gen 9:

gen 1:
13, 100% of the 13 mons in ou

gen 2:
11, ~45.8% of the 24 mons in ou

gen 3:
8, ~29.6% of the 27 mons in ou

gen 4:
21, ~42.8% of the 49 mons in ou

gen 5:
14, ~26.9% of the 52 mons in ou

gen 6:
19, ~32.7% of the 58 mons in ou

gen 7:
11, ~21.1% of the 52 mons in ou (i'm not counting totem kommo-o or battle bond regular greninja as separate mons because that's fucking stupid)

gen 8:
7, 20% of the 35 mons in ou

gen 9:
19, ~51.3% of the 37 mons in ou

so more than half of the mons in ou right now are from the current gen. percentage-wise, that's more than any other gen (gen 1 doesn't count because c'mon, that wouldn't be fair); in raw numbers, it's only beaten by gen 4. that being said, i think it's reasonable to assume that these numbers will change—the meta is still in a state of flux, and we have two dlcs to get through. when all is said and done, the raw number might be higher or lower, but it's very likely that the percentage will end up substantially lower thanks to the dlcs reintroducing old mons.

i'm not taking a position on whether this is good or bad because i genuinely don't care how many or how few new mons are ou as long as the meta is good (which i personally don't think it is right now but we're close, guys, we're really close). this is just data presented neutrally. make of it what you will

Got nerd-sniped a bit thinking about analyzing this data.

I don't think looking at simple percentage of new mons in OU is really the correct thing to look at in comparing power creep. You really want to compare the percentage of new mons in OU vs the percentage of new mons overall.

For example, in Gen 2, 45.8% of OU mons may have been from Gen 2, but only 39.8% of all mons were from that Gen. In other words, Gen 2 is overrepresented, and there was some (minor) level of powercreep.

In Gen 3, 29.6% of OU mons were Gen 3, but 35% of all mons were Gen 3. So Gen 3 is slightly weaker.

Quick table I worked up (using your numbers for % in OU).
The numbers are pretty badly off for Gens 6+, because I was lazy and just went off national dex numbers - so it's not properly accounting for Mega Evolutions or Regional Forms (or even for mons with multiple forms like Rotom).

If anyone cares enough to figure out actual numbers of Mons Added vs Total Mons the numbers could be more meaningful.

	% in OU	Num of Mons Added	Total Mons	% of New Mons	% in OU / % of New Mons
Gen 1	100%	151	151	1	1
Gen 2	0.458	100	251	0.3984063745	1.14958
Gen 3	0.296	135	386	0.3497409326	0.8463407407
Gen 4	0.428	107	493	0.2170385396	1.972
Gen 5	0.269	156	649	0.2403697997	1.119108974
Gen 6	0.327	72	721	0.09986130374	3.274541667
Gen 7	0.211	88	809	0.108776267	1.939761364
Gen 8	0.2	89	664	0.1340361446	1.492134831
Gen 9	0.513	112	478	0.2343096234	2.189410714

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i think what we're figuring out right now is that the situation, in terms of mons added, total available mons, and new additions to ou, is pretty similar to gen 4—a little over 100 new mons, a little under 500 mons in total, and about half of ou consists of new additions. that actually makes a lot of sense to me, because gen 9 ou has always reminded me of gen 4 ou in a way i couldn't really describe or put my finger on till now. now i know why this meta reminds me of gen 4 so much despite being so radically different in almost every other way

 

[Magcargo]

i genuinely don't know how useful clef and ferro are going to be. ferro's biggest draw was its ability to effectively set spikes when few other mons could, but now it has to compete with the six spikes mons that are ou by usage and several more that aren't but still exist in enough of a capacity to worry about (gren, meowscarada, mew, chesnaught, klefki, etc). garchomp even punishes physical attackers in the same way while being infinitely less passive. clef's probably losing teleport, which brings it down massively as a pivot, and its unaware sets aren't exactly unique anymore since there are three new viable unaware mons, two of which frequently turn into fairy-types. they'll still end up ou, no denying it, but they're not getting past this power creep unscathed

Yeah, Clef got massively screwed in the transition. Main one is having to rely on 8 PP Moonlight for recovery, but it lost a lot of other options like Knock Off, Seismic Toss, Toxic, etc. which cuts into its versatility and reliability quite a bit. Granted, I think Wishtect is still fine enough, it'll be a great Tera User since Magic Guard lets it transition into any other type without having to deal w/ stuff like weakness to Rocks + it'll get strong Ground coverage to beat Heatran, and its ability lets it completely own Garg barring some Heavy Slam crap.

Ferrothorn I think will be annoying for the same reason Garg is - Leech Seed is a massive pain to switch into, though it is much more bearable because most teams have some sort of counterplay, whether it be Grass-Types, Gholdengo, Magic Bouncer / Guard users, etc. It gets most of its important moves like Knock off and Toxic via egg moves, so it didn't really lose anything in the transition to this game. Unfortunately, I think it has worse MUs vs the top mons this gen compared to last gen.

 

[artificialdeath]

This is exactly what I meant when I railed against the idea of SV ending up anything like SS by the end of the generation. Not only are most of the new mons relevant threats, but some of them play in ways that make them unique rather than just "x but better" (though there are some of those, Bax basically being the final boss of DD sweepers for example). As others have pointed out, many older metagame staples will have a harder time adapting to the meta, even if they can still crack it in OU.

(also Zapdos is missing from the "100% of gen 1 pokemon are new" sprites)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

(also Zapdos is missing from the "100% of gen 1 pokemon are new" sprites)

shit

um

uh, i mean, no it isn't, it's been there the whole time. yeah. definitely.

 

[Rootb]

gen 9:
19, ~51.3% of the 37 mons in ou

..

i'm not taking a position on whether this is good or bad because i genuinely don't care how many or how few new mons are ou as long as the meta is good (which i personally don't think it is right now but we're close, guys, we're really close). this is just data presented neutrally. make of it what you will

I also don't really hold a strong opinion (though I definitely lean towards "good"), but it is wild how high the average BST of that group is. Clod (430), Garganacl (500) and Sneasler (510) are the only members of that crew under 525 BST, and the first two are Theorymon Thursday rejects come to life.

The thing that makes SV so interesting to me, though, is just how varied these mons are. It's not like only some parts of the game leapt forward -- everything from "Six Suicide Leads" to the purest of pure stall wound up with exciting new toys to play with.

 

[Blue glass]

snip

I followed closely last gen and the peak for gen 8 mons was that they were about 25% of OU during IoA meta but that percentage hold through for all gen 8 despite all the chaos.

Like you said, I present this data neutraly and everyone can make their own conclusions about it.

 

[Finchinator]

Viability rankings are now up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-post-home-viability-ranking-thread.3723863/#post-9688721

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

what exactly made zoro-h fall off so hard? is it just the absolute dominance of gambit? because i still think zoro-h is a solid mon and i'm still getting decent results with it

 

[WildWave]

Finished the survey yesterday, figured I share my thoughts with y'all since I have some free time.

Terastallization: No Action. I said my peace already. I'll just wait until the thread goes up to unleash.

: (5) No skills, no counterplay. The fact that you can easily slap this onto a Powerhouse just to fish for a 20% activation is ridiculous. Not even a Powerhouse, just a Pokémon in general. Just a cheap strat, tired of players trying to do the thing. So not wavy.

: (5) Shouldn't have been QB. Think it'll be beneficial in having it in the tier with the likes of Iron Valiant, Zamazenta-H, and Kingambit running around. It's annoying, just not sold on it yet to stay in Ubers.

: (4) Supreme Overlord is just a ridiculous ability. Although it does benefit from Tera, its still nuisance without. Only saving grace that this thing didn't get a 5 is cause it's really good against ghost spam thanks to its typing. Be that as it may, definitely worth a look down the line.

: (3) Salt Cure & Purifying Salt are it's best attributes. Definitely benefits from Tera, and although it's annoying to deal with, this Pokémon does keep the tier together from letting offensive playstyles from getting out of hand. Really good against ghost spam as well. I'm 50/50 when it comes to Garg, but for now I'll leave it be.

: (3) I think I rushed it when it came to this one. Should have been a 4. Great bulk, access to both SD and DD, and a solid movepool coming from an attack stat of 145 is absolutely absurd. Like why?

: (2) It's really good. Does have a lot of sets you gotta watch out for, bulk isn't really there. I just never found myself overwhelmed by this thing.

: (5) Dire Claw, so not wavy.

: (2) Ceaseless Edge is one hell of a move. There's something going on when it comes to Hazard Stack. Not sure if it's Sam on it's own, not sure if it's that plays a part with Sam, or just a lack of good viable hazard removers. Be that as it may, I'll hold off on this for the moment.

In regards of a Tera Suspect, I stated that I wanted a ladder for Tera Preview just to see if it solves the "problem" of Tera as some people suggested. Only for this suspect at least.

 

[sims796]

Not surprised to see Cinder as the dominant Protean. The ability to do something against hazard spam is undeniably useful.

 

[Exotic64]

Not surprised to see Cinder as the dominant Protean. The ability to do something against hazard spam is undeniably useful.

cinderace rarely runs protean now lol, blaze bulky wisp varaiants are much better rn

 

[LandorusTBeatsGreatTusk]

Why is my boy Skeledirge struggling? (Drop from OU and B tier in viability)
I feel like he counters Zamazanta, Iron Valiant, Sneasler and many other big threats very well.

And why is Hisui Samurott A tier?
Is there a set in particular that makes him such a valuable option in a team?
I tried using him, he felt like setup fodder (Belly Drummers, Iron Valiant, Zamazanta, Dragonite, etc.) and was quite underwhelming ; he never attacked more than twice because of its mediocre bulk + volturn weakeness, even against the mons he supposed to "check" like Gholdengo, Heatran and Glowking.
Very suprised by his placement.

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

Why is my boy Skeledirge struggling? (Drop from OU and B tier in viability)
I feel like he counters Zamazanta, Iron Valiant, Sneasler and many other big threats very well.

And why is Hisui Samurott A tier?
Is there a set in particular that makes him such a valuable option in a team?
I tried using him, he felt like setup fodder (Belly Drummers, Iron Valiant, Zamazanta, Dragonite, etc.) and was quite underwhelming ; he never attacked more than twice because of its mediocre bulk + volturn weakeness, even against the mons he supposed to "check" like Gholdengo, Heatran and Glowking.
Very suprised by his placement.

Two words: Ceaseless Edge

He's not meant to be a sweeper or anything like that. His job is to be as obnoxious as possible by clicking that move and forcing Spikes onto the opponent while dealing damage.

 

[Magcargo]

So, something I noticed during the (rare) times I build are that Gholdengo and Slowking-G are very similar Pokemon.

• Both act as a Fairy / Fighting check, with a similarly good MU vs Pokemon like Iron Valiant, Sneaseler, Zamazenta, etc.
• Both have a similar set of weaknesses, with similar bad MUs to key Pokemon like Ting-Lu, Gambit, Tusks, etc.
• Both can provide similar Utility w/ Thunder Wave, Trick & have recovery + can viably run multiple items like Rocky Helmet
• Both Pokemon benefit from hazard support to provide unique utility (Gholdengo blocks Defog, Slowking-G has futureport)
• Both Pokemon offer unique counterplay to status (Slowking-G doesn't GAF about most status due to Regenerator, Gholdengo has Good as Gold).

Now both Pokemon do have a lot of their own unique traits (Slowking-G is a good TR setter + blanket check to special threats, Gholdengo is a good Scarfer). However, when teambuilding, it seems like both Pokemon have largely overlapping functions and its a binary choice between one or the other. I'm wondering what other people's thoughts are on the dilemna between these two Pokemon. Are they actually providing similar utility & competing w/ one another, or is this take looking at too many superficial factors?

 

[Return to Zero]

Why is my boy Skeledirge struggling? (Drop from OU and B tier in viability)
I feel like he counters Zamazanta, Iron Valiant, Sneasler and many other big threats very well.

No Volcarona to check, loses pretty hard to newcomers Enamorus and Ursaluna, Ting-Lu becoming more of a presence, H-Samurott puts the hurt on it, competittion from Heatran. Just in general, it has less to do, more competition, and more things that hurt it.

 

[Fenghuang]

Viability rankings are now up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-post-home-viability-ranking-thread.3723863/#post-9688721

Why is corv so high? What does corv even do?

 

[WildWave]

Why is corv so high? What does corv even do?

Defog:)

 

[Finchinator]

Why is corv so high? What does corv even do?

Ngl I find this funny as someone else in the thread asked why it’s so low.

Anyway, in a metagame starved for Steel typed and Defog users and even Ground immunities not weak to Knock Off + SR, it fulfills all 3. B+ is fine given its utility.

Direct future questions to the thread please, thanks

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

I just 1v6d with Kingambit. I was iffy that it was an issue by itself but that convinced me. Even if tera goes, it needs to go. It's sadly one of the few ghost resists we have so banning it wouldn't exactly fix anything rn. There's really no clear cut answe to solving everything. Tera leaving kneecaps everything but I'm doubtful that'll fix everything. Think we just gotta wait for more dlc inclusions to hopefully even things out.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

What’s the deal with Hamurott and Clodsire? Last time I checked Hamurott was #5 in usage and Clodsire was an excellent special wall. Does clod have anything to do with the seven god Damn ground types?

 

[Exotic64]

I just 1v6d with Kingambit. I was iffy that it was an issue by itself but that convinced me. Even if tera goes, it needs to go. It's sadly one of the few ghost resists we have so banning it wouldn't exactly fix anything rn. There's really no clear cut answe to solving everything. Tera leaving kneecaps everything but I'm doubtful that'll fix everything. Think we just gotta wait for more dlc inclusions to hopefully even things out.

lol as op as gambit undoubtably is banning it would do a lot more harm than good
banning gambit means dragapult and gholdengo have a field day
and after those guys are inevitably banned val and enam get tested etc etc etc

 

[KamenOH]

What’s the deal with Hamurott and Clodsire? Last time I checked Hamurott was #5 in usage and Clodsire was an excellent special wall. Does clod have anything to do with the seven god Damn ground types?

Youd think that with 7 good ground types, a bulky water would rise to OU, right? Or is Samurott such a good ground answer too that it stole the show?

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Youd think that with 7 good ground types, a bulky water would rise to OU, right? Or is Samurott such a good ground answer too that it stole the show?

Ngl I was actually surprised Hamurott is a bit lower than I expected. I don’t think I’d call it worse than Baxcalibur any day.

 

[Karxrida]

I just 1v6d with Kingambit. I was iffy that it was an issue by itself but that convinced me. Even if tera goes, it needs to go. It's sadly one of the few ghost resists we have so banning it wouldn't exactly fix anything rn. There's really no clear cut answe to solving everything. Tera leaving kneecaps everything but I'm doubtful that'll fix everything. Think we just gotta wait for more dlc inclusions to hopefully even things out.

I semi-recently came back from a game where I was down most my Mons because I maneuvered into an advantageous position to countersweep. Any sufficiently weakened team is vulnerable to being cleaned up by a fast sweeper or anything with strong priority.

Kingambit letting you make a major comeback like that isn't an argument for banning unless you played like total shit and got carried by Supreme Overlord.