Out of all the silly little things that home brought (i.e. Regieleki with coverage) turns out what was the most broken was. SCREENS.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Sick of your Chien Pao being walled by Mage? I present to you one of the most effective sets at luring all the most CP answers (Mage, Zama C, Hisuan Samurott) atm:
Chien-Pao @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Tera Blast
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
A Chien Pao without SD or priority might seem a bit weird at first glance but this set's super effective coverage is off the charts. Expert belt helps in taking advantage of the coverage and has much more longevity than life orb. This set definitely needs hazard removal support which is basically just Tusk (also using a Hat on my team). Also pretty terrible if you face a Dondozo but the upside of crushing a lot of the bulky offences and luring it's own checks is worth it imo.
Only have one replay saved with this set unfortunately but try it out guys
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1875163784
Chien-Pao @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Tera Blast
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
A Chien Pao without SD or priority might seem a bit weird at first glance but this set's super effective coverage is off the charts. Expert belt helps in taking advantage of the coverage and has much more longevity than life orb. This set definitely needs hazard removal support which is basically just Tusk (also using a Hat on my team). Also pretty terrible if you face a Dondozo but the upside of crushing a lot of the bulky offences and luring it's own checks is worth it imo.
Only have one replay saved with this set unfortunately but try it out guys
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1875163784
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After playing for a while with it, Hoppa-U has been my premier... sack. 
I had a good feeling with it but for now it has nothing to do in this meta, didn't have the chance to even attack. I humbly take the L, it is going to be UUBL.
In the other hand, Amoonguss is very good, spore allows to be the dumb mons do their dumb set ups and win, basically if the rival doesn't bring Gholdengo your set up mons will have a set up fodder just by bringing Amoonguss in the right turn, while is still a great pivot, combine that with u-turn and stuff like Mag kinda autowins. Also, tera sucks on Mag, losing the best typing on the game is a big nerf, never click tera with it.
Edit: forgot to mention, my boy Ting-Lu is still the goat, especially against those set up sweepers everybody is using rn, I love how consistent my bro is.
I had a good feeling with it but for now it has nothing to do in this meta, didn't have the chance to even attack. I humbly take the L, it is going to be UUBL.In the other hand, Amoonguss is very good, spore allows to be the dumb mons do their dumb set ups and win, basically if the rival doesn't bring Gholdengo your set up mons will have a set up fodder just by bringing Amoonguss in the right turn, while is still a great pivot, combine that with u-turn and stuff like Mag kinda autowins. Also, tera sucks on Mag, losing the best typing on the game is a big nerf, never click tera with it.
Edit: forgot to mention, my boy Ting-Lu is still the goat, especially against those set up sweepers everybody is using rn, I love how consistent my bro is.
This implies that stuff that was run previously is even as good now. The unaware trio are mons you see on fat/bulky teams, while Scream is also typically on those teams, aside from sun teams it can show up on. So while yes, bulkier teams can play around ZamaC, offense seriously struggles with IDBP sets if they can't pressure it fast enough.
It does not matter if they switch. There are only a handful of mons that can switch in and force out a sleeping Zamazenta. Don't set up when those mons are around. I lost a game to rest Zama-C earlier today.
Personally I'm hovering around 1850 - 1900 ("meme home 69" is my tag) with Zama-H on my team. I have substitute on my set so I prefer being able to use leftovers, which only Zama-H can use. Also, Zama-H is faster than Chien-Pao, which is huge considering: 1) Zama-C is weak to sacred sword, and 2) sacred sword ignores boosts.
Both are busted.
Grounds ranking update:
landorus’ pivot in and u turn value has plummeted without eleki to apply the crazy pressure it once did. Tusk on the rise as space is opening up for rapid spin, and it walls the physical threats which are more prominent. Ursaluna just under tusk due to needing a lot more support.
finally ting Lu, clodsire and iron treads all take heavy damage in this meta with strong fighting attacks, or in clodsires case, drains momentum! Ursaluna dishes the damage, so it’s an exception to the other fighting weaknesses.
who will reach UU first?
landorus’ pivot in and u turn value has plummeted without eleki to apply the crazy pressure it once did. Tusk on the rise as space is opening up for rapid spin, and it walls the physical threats which are more prominent. Ursaluna just under tusk due to needing a lot more support.
finally ting Lu, clodsire and iron treads all take heavy damage in this meta with strong fighting attacks, or in clodsires case, drains momentum! Ursaluna dishes the damage, so it’s an exception to the other fighting weaknesses.
who will reach UU first?
- Landorus
- Great tusk
- Ursaluna
- Tie between clodsire, ting lu and iron treads
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Offense has access to volcarona, which is a hard counter to any zama set due to its typing, flame body, and ability to boost alongside it. You can also run something like rocks landorus + gholdengo, which forces it to be exactly ironpress/ice fang/crunch to make any headway. generally stacking an offensive mon that zama wants ice fang for, such as lando-t or dragonite, plus something else that zama needs another move for isn't terribly difficult and helps ease the matchup tremendously, and nothing I've listed in any of my posts is suddenly gonna become unviable now.
genuine curiosity here, got any replays? I'd love to understand where you might be coming from even if I disagree.
Here is me sweeping a 1900 player with Zama-H: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1875363544
I got a bit lucky with the hurricane miss on my first substitute, and no paralysis from contact damage when hitting Zapdos... but that's all it takes to sweep an entire team.
Volc is a counter, yes, (unless the ZamC trolls with tera fire which it honestly could). Lando does help pivot around it, but Lando also is relied on to check a shit ton of stuff right now so if it gets worn down, or just KOd ZamC becomes a lot tougher. Plus if ZamC teras into a ground neutral type, +2 or +3 ZamC is unbreakable for physical attackers, and on top of that if its sub, then you get to boost to +5 or +6 on Lando.
It's not impossible for offense to beat it, but the match up is very skewed.
Garchomp probably in danger of dropping to UU lmao
What are your thoughts on rain offense in the current Meta? The Meta rn is very HO focused I feel, which rain teams have an advantage against. They have also gained three new abusers(the two Basculegions and Overqwil). I think that they have the potential to become fairly strong once the Meta settles. What are your favourite structures for rain?
Wait, how does Volc counter Zama-C? It's a check at best due to the possibility of an errant Stone Edge (to say nothing about the fact that Volc is slower). Even with absolute minimum attack (Which Zama-C will never run because -SpA is absolutely a free nature on it), against a bulky Volcarona set, this happens:
0- Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 368-436 (98.6 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Even a neutral nature pushes Stone Edge into guaranteed OHKO territory.
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I mean, if the set you are using is Iron Defense, you don't have much room for SE. You need Iron Defense, Body Press, Crunch (otherwise ghosts laugh at you) and last move is either Sub or Rest.
Volc might not be a reliable check for offensive (Howl or just 4 attacks) sets, but it for sure is good vs Iron Defense one.
The problem is, using Volc to stop Zama-C is tricky since Volc takes an uncomfortable amount of chip from Body Press, even through the fighting resist, and it also straight-up won't work if you're forced to Terastalize Volcarona to fight something else.
If you're running offensive Volc, it's not even a true counter against the IronPress set, as two sequential highrolls will allow a Dauntless Shield-boosted Body Press to 2HKO, no crit needed, even without any Defense EVs:
+1 0+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 135-159 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
If you use Volc to check Zamazenta, you use Morning Sun + some bulk. With that, even +6 Iron Defense won't OHKO and each hit is a chance to trigger Flame Body which does reduce Body Press power. Only Tera Fire Zamazenta can actually bypass bulky Volcarona in the long run and even that one could collapse to Tera Ground Volca.
The problem is, even Bulky Volc is 2HKOed by Body Press, so it can't switch in safely, and because it's slower (Zama-C only needs to run 40 speed EVs to guarantee it outspeeds Timid Bulky Volc), it'll get taken down before it gets the chance to heal with Morning Sun. Even if you run max defense investment (which would leave Volcarona unable to outspeed Zama-C at any investment level), you need to run Bold to eliminate the possibility of a 2HKO.
Here's the calc:
+3 0+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 192-227 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You're essentially banking on that 30% chance for a Flame Body Proc if you're raw switching Volcarona in, which is unfavourable odds. Even if you switch in on the Iron Defense, Bulky Volc is a heavily exploitable set due to only running one attacking move (Fiery Dance), especially given how our old buddy Heatran is running around, who completely blanks bulky Volc (to say nothing about other good partners like the potentially banworthy Walking Wake), so even in the best-case scenario, you're using a heavily exploitable Volcarona set just to stop Zamazenta-C (also, bulky Volcarona usually run Tera Grass, not Tera Ground).
And at +6, Zamazenta-C can outpace Volcarona's Morning Sun healing quite handily, again, with no investment, which, again, means you're essentially banking on one 30% roll to save you:
+6 0+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 309-363 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if Zamazenta-C is fully invested into defense, don't even think about it, +6 Body Press can and most likely will OHKO:
+6 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 369-435 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
The only way Volc can guarantee it doesn't die to max investment +6 Zam-C Body Press is if you run 248 HP and 240 Def, which will leave Volcarona unable to invest enough EVs in speed to outspeed Zamazenta-C (and thus will not get the chance to heal using Morning Sun, even if Flame Body does proc,, so it gets run over anyway).
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The set on site is outdated, is pre-Home. Currently Bulky Volcarona has to account for Zamazenta, so it will be outspeeding Zamazenta at +1, giving more chances to use Roost. It also now won't be using WoW ever due to Heatran existing, Tera Ground Blast probably will be the most common last move.
I still fail to see how Zamazentas (both of them) can autowin any match-up outside of HO (and not all of them either). Maybe Band or Howl sets can do something, but IronPress is extreme match-up fishing and will be useless vs teams that have something bulky and durable.
To be fair, at that point that's a pretty specific set of circumstances.
On an unrelated note, one mon I think has some potential to have a solid niche in the tier this time is Moltres. The lack of knock off is pretty great for it, and Flame Body is an amazing punish to lots of physical attacks in the tier. Stuff like Uturn from Lando and Corv, rapid spin or any stab attack from Tusk, uturn or HJK from Libero Ace, most attacks from banded RM, its a solid deterrent. And the typing is pretty good for pivoting around some Iron Valiant sets, Enamorous-I, Gholdengo... Oh and both Zama forms.
But if you outspeed Zam-C, you're not investing enough bulk to reliably survive a boosted Body Press, since Volcarona cannot invest enough points to both outspeed Zam-C (it needs 120 EVs in order to outspeed Zamazenta-C, even with a Timid Nature against a neutral nature Zamazenta), but it also needs 232 HP and 252 Defense (or some similar combination) and survive +6 Body Presses reliably (unless Body Press crits, at which point even going Bold and Max Defense/HP will not save Volc from being OHKOed).
And nobody in their right mind is going to switch Zam-C into Volcarona to begin with. A counter is something that can switch in and always win. Volcarona cannot do that against Zam-C, thus it is not a counter. Against Bulky QD Volcarona you just swap in Heatran and be done with it since Bulky Volc only runs Fiery Dance and Will-O-Wisp for offensive pressure.
As someone who hasn't played Gen 9 competitively at all, I'm only chiming in here because bringing up Volcarona as a check for Zamazenta is funny when Slither Wing exists and has (slightly) better defense and a typing that lets it take Crunch if necessary. It also has Whirlwind and Will-o-wisp just like its modern-day counterpart. It naturally struggles more to deal damage back as it's more of a physical attacker, and likely takes more damage from Steel coverage in the case of the Crowned version as it's not a Fire type, but it's an option.
Yes, I'm aware a big selling point for regular Volcarona is Flame Body punishing contact moves, but if you're seriously considering running a Pokémon with 85/65 defenses as a check it may be worth considering other options.
Yes, I'm aware a big selling point for regular Volcarona is Flame Body punishing contact moves, but if you're seriously considering running a Pokémon with 85/65 defenses as a check it may be worth considering other options.
Current set on site (the one you are using for calcs is Timid Volc). The one that should be used now is Bold Volc with 261 Speed (to outspeed Jolly Zamazenta Crowned at +1). Calc would look like this (vs not Jolly).
It looks solid enough as a check for me, with enough turns to use Roost for a Flame Body burn and even a chance to avoid 2HKO and beat Zama.
It also resists the Behemoth Bashes as well. And it hits on the special side, and can use Will-o-wisp to fish for the burn. However, if that becomes too much for zama, they can just Stone Edge you out of existence.
Speaking of fighting types, Urshifu-RS is absolutely nuts. +2 tera water surging strikes is absolutely disgusting.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 174-210 (57.2 - 69%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Toxapex is not a switch in. And cannot protect stall, due to Unseen Fist.
The Rebirth of the Duck
Since a little while before the arrival of Home, Quaquaval has been sidelined and has even fallen into Under Used, unlike the other two Paldean starters who are solid OU mons. He was outclassed by other set-up sweepers and couldn't find his place in the pre-Home meta.
However, since the arrival of Home, new threats have appeared such as Chien Pao, Landorus-T, Urshifu or Samurott-H. And guess what they all have in common? they're checked or walled by :
The Defensive Quaquaval
Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Impish Nature
- Aqua Step
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Roost
Tired of watching your opponent's Samurott-H setting up spikes for free ? Tired of seeing Chien Pao crunching and icicle crashing through your team ? This is the solution. As well as acting as an excellent check to many of today's big meta threats, it serves as a great hazard remover thanks to rapid spin, a good defensive pivot thanks to U-Turn and also a potential sweeper thanks to Aqua Step + Moxie.
And it doesn't just check new mons from Home, it also checks Kingambit, Cinderace, Great Tusk and Ting-Lu very well.
Tera water removes the rather annoying fairy, flying or psy weaknesses and increases the somewhat average power of aqua step. The EVs spread in speed is used to outspeed the majority of defensive Tusks and Garchomp at +1.
To sum up, Quaquaval definitely has a niche in OU thanks to its ideal typing at the moment and its access to Rapid Spin, U-Turn and a reliable recovery move in Roost. Try playing it guys and I guarantee you won't be disappointed.
The Rebirth of the Duck
Since a little while before the arrival of Home, Quaquaval has been sidelined and has even fallen into Under Used, unlike the other two Paldean starters who are solid OU mons. He was outclassed by other set-up sweepers and couldn't find his place in the pre-Home meta.
However, since the arrival of Home, new threats have appeared such as Chien Pao, Landorus-T, Urshifu or Samurott-H. And guess what they all have in common? they're checked or walled by :
The Defensive Quaquaval
Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Impish Nature
- Aqua Step
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin
- Roost
Tired of watching your opponent's Samurott-H setting up spikes for free ? Tired of seeing Chien Pao crunching and icicle crashing through your team ? This is the solution. As well as acting as an excellent check to many of today's big meta threats, it serves as a great hazard remover thanks to rapid spin, a good defensive pivot thanks to U-Turn and also a potential sweeper thanks to Aqua Step + Moxie.
And it doesn't just check new mons from Home, it also checks Kingambit, Cinderace, Great Tusk and Ting-Lu very well.
Tera water removes the rather annoying fairy, flying or psy weaknesses and increases the somewhat average power of aqua step. The EVs spread in speed is used to outspeed the majority of defensive Tusks and Garchomp at +1.
To sum up, Quaquaval definitely has a niche in OU thanks to its ideal typing at the moment and its access to Rapid Spin, U-Turn and a reliable recovery move in Roost. Try playing it guys and I guarantee you won't be disappointed.
Can agree it's viable, but for me personally it's less viable than Watershifu (who breaks much more immediately) and Water Tauros (who completely invalidates most Chien Pao sets). Biggest crime however is Quaquaval being ugly.
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