Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[YubelVT]

Would Sneasler be healthy for OU if just the move Dire Claw was banned or is the mon problematic as a whole

I would argue it's the mon as a whole but I'm also not very good at this game

 

[Lumi_Nati 31]

Would Sneasler be healthy for OU if just the move Dire Claw was banned or is the mon problematic as a whole

Yes, but usually, if a move is broken but it's only broken on one pokemon, or there is only one instance of a pokemon having a move, the pokemon itself usually gets banned. For example, before people agreed that shed tail is broken as a whole, Cyclizar got banned, because people thought the move would be ok on Orthworm. The same was done with last respects, so unless other pokemon get dire claw and they are all proven to be broken, Sneasler will probably get banned and not dire claw

 

[Pabloaram]

Would Sneasler be healthy for OU if just the move Dire Claw was banned or is the mon problematic as a whole

Sorry but can we stop the "Non Dire Claw Sneasler" debate pls....

 

[Finchinator]

The vote will likely be on multiple Pokemon, but specifics are uncertain as of now.

 

[eheueheu]

The vote will likely be on multiple Pokemon, but specifics are uncertain as of now.

:O Pao and Doggo(s) being banned?

 

[ZacBouh]

I think there should be a discussion on Sleep Clause.

Smogon is a defacto authority on Competitive Pokemon and primarily makes rules for Cart play. Most of Smogon uses Simulators to play on, but they are simulators of what is possible on the official cartridge without modding your game. This is why the main tier of OU only bans Pokemon, abilities, items, and moves, instead of directly changing attributes of those thing, like say have the move Last Respects only gain 20 BP for each fainted Pokemon, or subtract 15 SpA/Spe from Flutter Mane for balancing the game.
There is almost nothing that you can’t do on Cartridge that you can do on the main Simulator Smogon uses being Pokemon Showdown. Almost that is.
For decades, one quirk of the Sim is the implementation of 2 clauses, being Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause for older Gens. There are also less important stuff like patching game break bugs for Gen 1 and VGC timer stuff, but that is less important. Here we’ll look at Sleep Clause because of a new addition in Pokemon, the move Dire Claw.

Sleep is a particularly powerful status condidtion that has existed since Generation 1. When inflicted, your Pokemon is completely unable to do anything for a set amount of turns without specifical moves like Sleep Talk or Snore. Of course, with how insanely busted such a mechanic is in game to sleep everything on your opponent’s team, Sleep Clause was implemented. Here is where Simulators deviate form Cart play. On simulators, all attempts to put a Pokemon to sleep after you have put something to sleep results in the sleep failing and the Pokemon remaining wide awake. On Cartridge however, the game is forfeit if you put asleep a second Pokemon.
For Gens 1-4, this is a non-issue since all you have to do is not click a sleep move after putting something to sleep. In Gen 5, Meloetta was introduced with the move Relic Song. This was the first attacking move that could put you to sleep, and with the ability Serene Grace had a 20% chance to put you to sleep. However this move sucked shit because it was weak and forced you to change from a bulk special attacker to a fast physical attacker. So no one used it on Meloetta or Smeargle since they had better options. We also get Secret Power (while Grassy Terrain was up), G-Max Befuddle, and G-Max Snooze (but only Yawn effect) could put you to sleep in an online battle. None of these ended up being really important because of distribution and requirements. You’d almost never see them be used at all on Cart with Smogon rules.

Fastforward to end of May in 2023, OU is now able to use the new move introduced in PLA called Dire Claw. It’s an attacking poison move that can induce Sleep and not require gimmicks. No switching to counterintuitive forms. No setting up Grassy Terrain. No Gigantamaxing 2 specific Pokemon. While Dire Claw is exclusive to 1 Pokemon, it’s on an amazing Pokemon that’s fast, strong, has good resistances, and complements its STAB Dire Claw with STAB Close Combat. It’s a move that’s actually viable to use and isn’t banned due to mechanic being banned. It’s be extremely common to find someone using Sneasler and use Dire Claw. The importance of this is that Realistic games on Cart will be WILDLY different from games on Simulator. It’s not just someone dicking around with Grassy Terrain and Secret Power, or using Relic Song on Meloetta. It has real metagame implications. Dire Claw on Simulator is now still spammable as ever because any time 1/6th chance of sleep occuring happens, it will simply just deal damage and nothing else. But on Cart, as soon as you put something to sleep, you risk forfeiting the game each time you click Dire Claw. Tons of tournament games now can not be replicated on cartridge now because any time you would have put something to sleep, sleep clause just steps in to save you from yourself. Decisions you made for that tournament game now are very different, including the teambuilding part too. On cart, you’d have to consider that Dire Claw can’t be spammed without risking a forfeit, so you also know that on Cart, Sneasler is less likely to be Banded. You know that Sneasler is likely not going to be paired with a Sleep inducer like Spore Amoongus or Spore Breloom. Dire Claw in conjunction with Sleep Clause creates a drastically different meta when played on Cart and Similator.
Now most people reading this play on Sim and wonder why they should care. To answer that, it’s because Showdown is supposed to be a simulation and Smogon prides itself about still keeping an eye out for cart players. If they aren’t cart accurate for everything, why bothing being accurate in other places? Why not slightly tweak Pokemon stats to balance the game? Or tweak RNG so it’s bit more fair or let you read what will happen next?

Smogon has largely ignored this issue because it would be rare to see happen on Ladder and never happened in a serious tournament outside of Gen 1/2. It’s about time they re-evaluate Sleep Clause so that it can be cartridge accurate. How Sleep Clause would change, that would have to be decided. Whether Sleep inducing moves get banned or you’re unable to use a sleep inducing move what so ever, you should be able to replicate it on cart. Anything else is just Smogon staff admitting that they don’t care about cart players, and otherwise justifies having balance patches.

I am curious how other people think, as I have been obsessed with Dire Claw, which was probably concieved on Jekyll Island in 1910.

I am quite surprised that this post did not get a lot of attention. I think that a move that can put the opponent to sleep, while also being a viable damage-dealing move you could use with no intention of spreading sleep, introduces a new dynamic that warrants reconsidering sleep clause as a whole.

Before Dire Claw, the fact that sleep clause works differently on simulator than on cartridge rarely came into play. The most relevant scenario I can think of is you are facing a sleeping mon and trying to put it back to sleep in the same turn that it wakes up. On simulator, if your opponent switches to a different mon, sleep clause will trigger and you will lose your turn, but on cartridge, if your sleeping move lands, you lose the game. Sleep clause effectively buffs sleep on simulator, but by giving you a chance to achieve a better outcome in a niche scenario.

Now compare this to the buff that sleep clause provides to Dire Claw on simulator. On cartridge, if one of your opponents' mon is asleep, you cannot mindlessly click dire claw or you risk losing the game for violating sleep clause. Even you wanted to click Dire Claw for damage only, you still run that risk. Dire Claw thus comes with an opportunity cost, it gives you a chance to spread multiple status conditions, but you may not always be able to click it, unlike something like Poison Jab. On simulator however, you can always click it. Not only is there no opportunity cost, but being able to click it more often makes RNG-dependent scenarios more frequent, which is a huge part of what makes Sneasler unhealthy.

I realize that even with a more realistic implementation of sleep clause, Sneasler might still be broken. But we should at least test it in a proper environment at some point. This would probably help people accept that we have to ban Sneasler as opposed to Dire Claw only. I would really appreciate it if someone from the council would either explain why we stick to this implementation of sleep clause that directly contradicts Smogon's philosophy, or push for this to change.

 

[Thinkat0n]

Really hope the dogs and the cat get the boot lol.

 

[Dive Missile]

I am quite surprised that this post did not get a lot of attention. I think that a move that can put the opponent to sleep, while also being a viable damage-dealing move you could use with no intention of spreading sleep, introduces a new dynamic that warrants reconsidering sleep clause as a whole.

Before Dire Claw, the fact that sleep clause works differently on simulator than on cartridge rarely came into play. The most relevant scenario I can think of is you are facing a sleeping mon and trying to put it back to sleep in the same turn that it wakes up. On simulator, if your opponent switches to a different mon, sleep clause will trigger and you will lose your turn, but on cartridge, if your sleeping move lands, you lose the game. Sleep clause effectively buffs sleep on simulator, but by giving you a chance to achieve a better outcome in a niche scenario.

Now compare this to the buff that sleep clause provides to Dire Claw on simulator. On cartridge, if one of your opponents' mon is asleep, you cannot mindlessly click dire claw or you risk losing the game for violating sleep clause. Even you wanted to click Dire Claw for damage only, you still run that risk. Dire Claw thus comes with an opportunity cost, it gives you a chance to spread multiple status conditions, but you may not always be able to click it, unlike something like Poison Jab. On simulator however, you can always click it. Not only is there no opportunity cost, but being able to click it more often makes RNG-dependent scenarios more frequent, which is a huge part of what makes Sneasler unhealthy.

I realize that even with a more realistic implementation of sleep clause, Sneasler might still be broken. But we should at least test it in a proper environment at some point. This would probably help people accept that we have to ban Sneasler as opposed to Dire Claw only. I would really appreciate it if someone from the council would either explain why we stick to this implementation of sleep clause that directly contradicts Smogon's philosophy, or push for this to change.

it's a bit extreme but i think the best 'fix' for sleep clause is just to upgrade it to a full on ban on sleep moves. that way we avoid all the headaches of making a better sleep clause and honestly end up with a much more consistent ruleset. if sleep is broken enough to require a complex ban + mod then it's not hard to justify them being fully banned instead.

of course, this is a whole different issue and banning sneasler is probably the most reasonable thing to do atm. i still think though that just banning sleep moves is the best thing to do in the long run though.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

The vote will likely be on multiple Pokemon, but specifics are uncertain as of now.

:O Pao and Doggo(s) being banned?

My guess is just crowned and pao for now with eyes on hero for now, since everyone knows that pao and zamazenta-crowned are obnoxiously broken

 

[pika pal]

Sorry but can we stop the "Non Dire Claw Sneasler" debate pls....

I agree at this point that a Dire Claw ban isn't something to break the standing methodology for. That said I stand by my point that Dire Claw is an inherently uncompetitive move and Sneasler would be on no one's radar without that move existing.

I am quite surprised that this post did not get a lot of attention. I think that a move that can put the opponent to sleep, while also being a viable damage-dealing move you could use with no intention of spreading sleep, introduces a new dynamic that warrants reconsidering sleep clause as a whole.

Before Dire Claw, the fact that sleep clause works differently on simulator than on cartridge rarely came into play. The most relevant scenario I can think of is you are facing a sleeping mon and trying to put it back to sleep in the same turn that it wakes up. On simulator, if your opponent switches to a different mon, sleep clause will trigger and you will lose your turn, but on cartridge, if your sleeping move lands, you lose the game. Sleep clause effectively buffs sleep on simulator, but by giving you a chance to achieve a better outcome in a niche scenario.

Now compare this to the buff that sleep clause provides to Dire Claw on simulator. On cartridge, if one of your opponents' mon is asleep, you cannot mindlessly click dire claw or you risk losing the game for violating sleep clause. Even you wanted to click Dire Claw for damage only, you still run that risk. Dire Claw thus comes with an opportunity cost, it gives you a chance to spread multiple status conditions, but you may not always be able to click it, unlike something like Poison Jab. On simulator however, you can always click it. Not only is there no opportunity cost, but being able to click it more often makes RNG-dependent scenarios more frequent, which is a huge part of what makes Sneasler unhealthy.

I realize that even with a more realistic implementation of sleep clause, Sneasler might still be broken. But we should at least test it in a proper environment at some point. This would probably help people accept that we have to ban Sneasler as opposed to Dire Claw only. I would really appreciate it if someone from the council would either explain why we stick to this implementation of sleep clause that directly contradicts Smogon's philosophy, or push for this to change.

I want to emphasize the point brought up in this post if only as a "keep in mind" topic, because while I accept that Sneasler would be banned as the sole user of the move, I also think this is a nuance to Sleep Clause that shouldn't have the can kicked down the road. This is the first instance of a "spammable" move that can induce Sleep where it would have reason to be used besides said Sleep proc (be it fishing for Paralyze/Poison under modded Sleep Clause, or simply as an attacking move to deal damage) besides Relic Song (which might have raised this debate if Meloetta-P was run often enough to influence a tier).

Imagine if Gen 10 some nonsense like Frosslass or a new mon gets "Hypothermic Snare" or something that deals Ice damage with a Sleep proc. That might be Case 2 for a mon to be banned, but as I brought up before, the design of mons by GF has changed more than a bit since the days Smogon started tiering around (whether from Doubles Focus or simply Signature-glut to Make more mons stand out to casual play), so ways that our clauses or practices collide with them then and now may be worth addressing even if not altering. Sleep Clause stands out since we outright handle it different on Sim vs Cart, when the simulator is intended primarily as a convenience for battling rather than implementation of a tweaked ruleset in context of our Regular Metagame Tiers.

Going to stress one more time that this is not a call for a specific course of action on the Radar, but rather throwing my voice behind a matter I think warrants keeping in mind rather than being overshadowed/drowned out amidst more immediate debates both related and not.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

it's a bit extreme but i think the best 'fix' for sleep clause is just to upgrade it to a full on ban on sleep moves. that way we avoid all the headaches of making a better sleep clause and honestly end up with a much more consistent ruleset. if sleep is broken enough to require a complex ban + mod then it's not hard to justify them being fully banned instead.

of course, this is a whole different issue and banning sneasler is probably the most reasonable thing to do atm. i still think though that just banning sleep moves is the best thing to do in the long run though.

I am still mad they have not changed sleep and freeze for the better Version from Legends Arceus.

But I like this suggestion of banning sleep. This would lead to consistency on cartridge gameplay and also be not a mod. Otherwise I would mod out sleep on Dire Claws in the first place.


---

Chien Pao getting banned would be great.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Really hope the dogs and the cat get the boot lol.

Well probably at least crowned is getting the boot, along with pao

 

[YubelVT]

The thing about Dire Claw is that Ubers will have to have the same discussion about sleep clause if Sneasler ends up being good there, so there's absolutely an argument to save everybody a headache and just ban the move lest we end up in a world where Sneasler is AG because of its signature move doing fucky things

 

[Mega Breloom]

I am quite surprised that this post did not get a lot of attention

There was already a 15 pages discussion about this after the council said they weren't banning dire claw. The change you propose already was mentioned before and so the downsides of it: the possibilities of forcing your rival to auto-lose by breaking the clause without it intending. Doesn't matter how specific those scenarios are, the possibility of making your opponent losing a match because of a rule is way more uncompetitive than sleep itself.
The true issue comes from the base game not smogon itself, so the sleep clause is a necessary evil even if it isn't the same as the cart because all the posible interactions in the game. In that sense, the sleep clause is just fine as it is, your opponent can't put to sleep more than one Pokémon so stuff like relic song or effect spore can't trigger twice sleep too.
Even banning all the sleep moves realistically doesn't solve much but hurt just few good for the meta mons like Amoonguss. But in the end of the day the main issue will stay in the game, the rng in form of static, thunderbolt, flame body, tri attack or even the worst of them: freeze hax. What is the solution in that case? Banning all the moves with not 100% chances of giving a status/dropping status? Of course not, that just gives a lot of colateral damage for no reason, that is how Pokémon was designed so it is what it is. Game Freak has done stuff to try to balance it but in this meta in particular we are missing stuff like electric and misty terrain. In the end of the day dire claw isn't even that great, relic song that has a similar effect didn't cause much controversy, the issue this time is Sneasler itself but dire claw is getting way more attention in the discussion that it deserves.

 

[Red violet blue]

What? Is that a new combination of Slowking and Ursaring?

Ursaluna, my bad
Ursaking is French name

 

[UnusualBoy]

Putting aside all the drama with CP, the doggos and co. The changes in the tier next month will be interesting to watch, I hope we don't lose Garchomp. That'd be really sad.

 

[coral fan]

Teambuilding Checklist
I've been building and refining teams a lot since home, not really ever using anyone else's teams, so i thought for my benefit and for others' i should try making a rough checklist for building in the current meta. note that a lot of tier 1 mons will probably get banned this month.
Check through each of these offensive threats, and make sure you have one or two answers to each.
This is not at all exhaustive, and doesn't apply as strictly to hyper offense builds, where you can kinda just rely on revenge killing etc.
Infact i think the more offensive ur team is, the less strictly u need to follow this

Tier 1 - very restrictive

• Chien-Pao
• Zamazentas
• Urshifu
• Ursaluna + Protect, Tera Ghost, Taunt for setters
• Sneasler
• Volcarona

Tier 2 - restrictive

• Baculegions
• Dragapult
• Walking Wake
• Enamorus
• Iron Valiant
• Garganacl - Covert Cloak on a good mon, and/or....
  stab to hit Rock supereffectively, then ideally also Elec/Grass stab for Tera Water, Dark stab for Tera Ghost, and Steel/Poison stab for Tera Fairy. sub sets, specs mons, and hazard stacking can also help.

Tier 3 - kinda restrictive

• Heatran - Spdef waters/dragons/grounds
• Baxcalibur - Physdef steels, waters and/or fairies
• Gholdengo - Cinderace, HO, or boots
• Kingambit - A fighting type, or something like Ting-Lu
• Hoopa-Unbound - Bulky darks and/or good speed control
• Tornadus-Therian - Good flying resist - ideally Zap/Washtom/Garg

Tier 4 - niche but notable

• Polteageist - Dark types/reliable hazards
• Torkoal - 2 fire resists vs sun
• Pelipper - 2 water resists vs rain
• Regidrago - A fairy type, or Tera Fairy
• Glimmora/Ting-Lu/Garchomp/Meowscarada - Hazard removal
• Cresselia/Articuno-G/Enamorus-Therian - phaser, hazer, unaware mon, screens remover, and/or ditto.

 

[ant4456]

I am still mad they have not changed sleep and freeze for the better Version from Legends Arceus.

But I like this suggestion of banning sleep. This would lead to consistency on cartridge gameplay and also be not a mod. Otherwise I would mod out sleep on Dire clause in the first place.


---

Chien Pao getting banned would be great.

im still mad people keep pointing to PLA when the underrated gem Temtem did it all perfectly the first time

sleep is a set number of turns, and being attacked wakes you up and gives an "alerted" status, meaning turns that you cannot be put back to sleep on, preventing chaining.

freeze can still be like sleep, but there is a cold -> freeze status, both limited, meaning that you need to proc (or in temtem's case, 100% chance on some moves) to get it, making counterplay better. though, of course, not every move can do that in the game so

burn effects both stats and is also limited time, and still does damage by turn.

really sad that more people don't acknowledge how good of an implementation it is, and Pokemon fangames and romhacks are already shamelessly (based) stealing its ideas

Pokemon Inclement Emerald steals the Temmesence Vial, which is a one-use pokecenter that refills after every center stop, cutting down on backtracking

 

[YubelVT]

Putting aside all the drama with CP, the doggos and co. The changes in the tier next month will be interesting to watch, I hope we don't lose Garchomp. That'd be really sad.

begging you people to stop abbreviating Chien-Pao like that

 

[TCTphantom]

The vote will likely be on multiple Pokemon, but specifics are uncertain as of now.

I’m gonna guess this is Chien Pao and Zamazenta Crowned. Both had the closest support for a quick ban beforehand. Sneasler has polarizing opinions on it and Zamazenta Hero did not have nearly the same support to be banned.

Also for the love of god, stop abbreviating Chien Pao to… that. It’s gross. Stop it.

 

[Carolusim]

Putting aside all the drama with CP, the doggos and co. The changes in the tier next month will be interesting to watch, I hope we don't lose Garchomp. That'd be really sad.

Are we actually abbreviating it as CP

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I’m gonna guess this is Chien Pao and Zamazenta Crowned. Both had the closest support for a quick ban beforehand. Sneasler has polarizing opinions on it and Zamazenta Hero did not have nearly the same support to be banned.

Also for the love of god, stop abbreviating Chien Pao to… that. It’s gross. Stop it.

Even finchinator wanted people to stop lmao

 

[Eeveeto]

Even finchinator wanted people to stop lmao

I mean, that's usually an incentive to not do it.

 

[Finchinator]

Let’s move on.

 

[ZacBouh]

There was already a 15 pages discussion about this after the council said they weren't banning dire claw. The change you propose already was mentioned before and so the downsides of it: the possibilities of forcing your rival to auto-lose by breaking the clause without it intending. Doesn't matter how specific those scenarios are, the possibility of making your opponent losing a match because of a rule is way more uncompetitive than sleep itself.
The true issue comes from the base game not smogon itself, so the sleep clause is a necessary evil even if it isn't the same as the cart because all the posible interactions in the game. In that sense, the sleep clause is just fine as it is, your opponent can't put to sleep more than one Pokémon so stuff like relic song or effect spore can't trigger twice sleep too.
Even banning all the sleep moves realistically doesn't solve much but hurt just few good for the meta mons like Amoonguss. But in the end of the day the main issue will stay in the game, the rng in form of static, thunderbolt, flame body, tri attack or even the worst of them: freeze hax. What is the solution in that case? Banning all the moves with not 100% chances of giving a status/dropping status? Of course not, that just gives a lot of colateral damage for no reason, that is how Pokémon was designed so it is what it is. Game Freak has done stuff to try to balance it but in this meta in particular we are missing stuff like electric and misty terrain. In the end of the day dire claw isn't even that great, relic song that has a similar effect didn't cause much controversy, the issue this time is Sneasler itself but dire claw is getting way more attention in the discussion that it deserves.

My post was not a discussion about a Dire Claw, but about sleep clause and the inconsistency between showdown and cartridge. If you believe that making your opponent lose a match by breaking a rule is uncompetitive (which I can understand), then you disagree with sleep clause overall, not with the inconsistency, since that is how it is meant to be used on cartridge.