Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Moyashi]

Next you're going to tell me that AV Kingambit is a bad set, and that I'm a bad player lmao.

In a spikes heavy metagame with very limited hazard removal? It's not exactly optimal. But it's still a set that actually could work without compromising power, which Bisharp already struggles with. The bulk difference between Gambit and Bisharp is negligible and not really relevant in practice, and Bisharp can't actually make the most of the switch ins it gets while checking things because it has a lack of power that just causes it to thud into things and do very little.

Oh and-

It working personally for you doesn't mean it works on a broader scale. Plenty of people have made bad Pokemon work for them. That doesn't represent the Pokemon generally being good, but the player using them.

I alluded to you being a good player for making it work. So no i'd never say that. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth or suggesting I would say things I wouldn't.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I mean Kingambit was introduced in the Tera Generation so I can make the case all the news mons were created with tera in mind. It just happens to be the most broken mon still legal in the meta. Every other mon in OU rn is not banworthy.

what does "Tera in mind" have to do with anything? It's the most broken Mon STILL legal in the meta sure. Still is the operating word here. Remove Kingambit from the equation we have at least 2 new threats that break the game with Tera. We're only at this point where kingambit is broken from the prior bans. SV will always be ripple effects until something is done about the core mechanic that can elevate most things from "questionable" to "unacceptable" once their best counter is banned for hitting that "unacceptable" threshold

 

[TheTraininator]

Yup, and with Eviolite, Bisharp has better physical bulk than Gambit, and Special Bulk that's nearly on par. The only limiting factor is the HP. 125 Attack is nothing to scoff at. 10 points below Gambit's 135, but we don't get SO.
I almost feel like this discussion would be 180'd if Bisharp ALSO got SO.

It’s not just lack of Supreme Overlord, though that’s certainly a huge part of it - it’s also lack of good Dark STAB. Thanks to no transfer moves, Bisharp doesn’t have 97.5 BP Knock Off, 80 BP Throat Chop, or even 75 BP Lash Out - it has to settle for the 70 BP Night Slash. At least Kingambit has Kowtow Cleave, and on top of Supreme Overlord, its bulk doesn’t have to come at the expense of an item slot. It’s really no contest; even if it didn’t have Supreme Overlord, Defiant Kingambit would still be leagues better than Bisharp.

 

[kosecant]

It’s not just lack of Supreme Overlord, though that’s certainly a huge part of it - it’s also lack of good Dark STAB. Thanks to no transfer moves, Bisharp doesn’t have 97.5 BP Knock Off, 80 BP Throat Chop, or even 75 BP Lash Out - it has to settle for the 70 BP Night Slash. At least Kingambit has Kowtow Cleave, and on top of Supreme Overlord, its bulk doesn’t have to come at the expense of an item slot. It’s really no contest; even if it didn’t have Supreme Overlord, Defiant Kingambit would still be leagues better than Bisharp.

I mean, I would certainly hope that an evolution to an already great Mon would put preform it. Bisharp isn’t a 1-to-1 replacement for gambit, not even close, but it will still be one of the best options for strong priority in the tier, which is nothing to scoff at with all of the high speed threats roaming around

 

[MegaScizor32]

what does "Tera in mind" have to do with anything? It's the most broken Mon STILL legal in the meta sure. Still is the operating word here. Remove Kingambit from the equation we have at least 2 new threats that break the game with Tera. We're only at this point where kingambit is broken from the prior bans. SV will always be ripple effects until something is done about the core mechanic that can elevate most things from "questionable" to "unacceptable" once their best counter is banned for hitting that "unacceptable" threshold

In Kingambit’s case, there is the argument that by banning it, there will be the consequences of letting Ghost type pokemon become more dominant such as Gholdengo and Dragapult.

The issue with that though is we have enough checks/counters in the OU meta to keep Ghost’s in line. Some examples are Garganacl, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, H-Samurott. There are other Sucker Punch users not named Kingambit that could see rise in usage such as Meowscarada as well. Priority and scarfers also do well against them.

If Kingambit does get banned i cant think of any other mons that become ban-worthy because of tera.

 

[SpritePony]

In a spikes heavy metagame with very limited hazard removal? It's not exactly optimal. But it's still a set that actually could work without compromising power, which Bisharp already struggles with. The bulk difference between Gambit and Bisharp is negligible and not really relevant in practice, and Bisharp can't actually make the most of the switch ins it gets while checking things because it has a lack of power that just causes it to thud into things and do very little.

Oh and-



I alluded to you being a good player for making it work. So no i'd never say that. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth or suggesting I would say things I wouldn't.

I want to actually sit down and play the "What if?" game here. Let's take an in-depth look at Kingambit vs Bisharp, to compare and contrast what they could do.

Spoiler

Type: Dark/Steel
Abilities: Supreme Overlord/Defiant/Pressure
BST: 550
HP: 100
Atk: 135
Def: 120
SpAtk: 60
SpDef: 85
Speed: 50

Notable move differences:
-Kowtow Cleave

Spoiler

Type: Dark/Steel
Abilities: Defiant/Inner Focus/Pressure
BST: 490
HP: 65
Atk: 125
Def: 100
SpAtk: 60
SpDef: 70
Speed: 70

Notable move differences:
-No Kowtow Cleave

Gaining 60 BST points, trading 20 Speed for bulk, and 10 additional attack doesn't look like too much on paper, at least in comparison to some other evolution lines. What REALLY sets them apart is Supreme Overlord and the 15 BP boost of Kowtow vs Night Slash's crit rate (not factoring in STAB.) Sure, we don't have Knock Off or Lash Out, but we still have Sucker Punch bare minimum. Night Slash being 15 points shorter than Kowtow is something to not really scoff at. It's almost like saying Ice Beam is bad because Blizzard exists -- They each have their own benefits. Kowtow has better base damage, but Night Slash can pierce Defense boosts.
Outside of that, Supreme Overlord and extra raw bulk is what mostly separates them. 100/120/85 vs 65/100/70 is a fair difference. The HP difference is where the major margin for the bulk separation exists; Gambit just has more raw HP. Yet, Bisharp can compare to it with damage calcs through Eviolite. Let's look at calcs for two specific sets vs their best check; Banded Pult.

Sets

@ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature | Tera Flying
Supreme Overlord (0 Fainted Allies)
124 HP/252 Atk/132 Speed
Kowtow Cleave
Iron Head
Low Kick
Sucker Punch

@ Eviolite
Adamant Nature | Tera Flying
Defiant (No boost)
136 HP/252 Atk/120 SpDef
Night Slash
Iron Head
Low Kick
Sucker Punch

@ Choice Band
Jolly Nature | Tera Ghost
Infiltrator/Clear Body
252 Atk/252 Speed/4 SpDef
Dragon Darts
Tera Blast
Psychic Fangs
U-Turn

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 108-128 (29 - 34.4%) -- approx. 1.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 116-137 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- 73.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult U-turn vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 102-120 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Dragapult: 396-468 (124.9 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Dragapult: 186-220 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Dragapult: 326-386 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 84-102 (27.5 - 33.4%) -- approx. 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 90-107 (29.5 - 35%) -- 14.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Dragapult U-turn vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 79-94 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Dragapult: 178-210 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Just look at these numbers. Bisharp has a better match-up into the banded Pult, and only falls short in having a 1/8 chance to not OHKO Pult from full, assuming hazards are not up. Against Specs Pult, Kingambit is slightly more favored, but Bisharp still doesn't slack.

Given how similar the calcs are, let's take a minute to think about how things would go if Bisharp also got Supreme Overlord. Sure, you don't have that additional 10 base Attack (Which translates to 22 Attack points of difference) but you're still just as threatening as Kingambit could be.

 

[awyp]

Honestly the only thing that needs to be suspect tested is Dire Claw / Sneasler and we'll have a really solid metagame. Lets start a bandwagon and see if we can petition for a Sneasler / Dire Claw suspect in the near future.

 

[SpritePony]

Honestly the only thing that needs to be suspect tested is Dire Claw / Sneasler and we'll have a really solid metagame. Lets start a bandwagon and see if we can petition for a Sneasler / Dire Claw suspect in the near future.

I'd be on board for a whole on Sneasler ban. That thing is so dumb to deal with.

 

[Alternator]

Using the listed UU spread for Bisharp with 216 EVs into speed, so note you can run bulkier:

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 118-140 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's close enough to an OHKO that Bisharp isn't a safe switch in unless Dragapult is already locked into something else or there's no hazards, but Bisharp does reliably force Dragapult out if it comes in safely.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 156-184 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dragon Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 114-136 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- approx. 3HKO

Banded Dragapult loses even post-tera.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 254-302 (80.6 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bisharp beats Gholdengo if the latter can't tera out of its weakness, or is a coinflip to revenge after a tera'd Gholdengo has killed something with Make It Rain:

+1 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 89-105 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Gholdengo: 145-172 (46 - 54.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO

(Make It Rain's damage displays wrong over two turns, so I have to show it split).


Strictly as a defensive mon, Bisharp actually does handle the big two ghosts, and can at least force teras out of stuff like Basculegion or else it beats them, too. There's no reason to use it as long as Kingambit is legal, but if "defensive check for Ghost attackers" is a need, it'll fill the job well enough.

 

[SpritePony]

Using the listed UU spread for Bisharp with 216 EVs into speed, so note you can run bulkier:

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 312-368 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 118-140 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's close enough to an OHKO that Bisharp isn't a safe switch in unless Dragapult is already locked into something else or there's no hazards, but Bisharp does reliably force Dragapult out if it comes in safely.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 156-184 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dragon Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 114-136 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- approx. 3HKO

Banded Dragapult loses even post-tera.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 254-302 (80.6 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bisharp beats Gholdengo if the latter can't tera out of its weakness, or is a coinflip to revenge after a tera'd Gholdengo has killed something with Make It Rain:

+1 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Bisharp: 89-105 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Gholdengo: 145-172 (46 - 54.6%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO

(Make It Rain's damage displays wrong over two turns, so I have to show it split).


Strictly as a defensive mon, Bisharp actually does handle the big two ghosts, and can at least force teras out of stuff like Basculegion or else it beats them, too. There's no reason to use it as long as Kingambit is legal, but if "defensive check for Ghost attackers" is a need, it'll fill the job well enough.

Thank you. Though our spreads are different, as you're using the more standard UU set, and mine is more attuned to match up to my own AV Kingambit set, the point is still pretty much the same.
Obviously, with Gambit still legal, Bisharp doesn't have a place in OU. But if and when Gambit gets the boot, Bisharp can be a good option to replace it as a dedicated Ghost spam check.

 

[Moyashi]

Night Slash being 15 points shorter than Kowtow is something to not really scoff at. It's almost like saying Ice Beam is bad because Blizzard exists -- They each have their own benefits. Kowtow has better base damage, but Night Slash can pierce Defense boosts.

That's a pretty poor comparison. Ice beam is already a good spammable move with a strong type and good BP, while blizzard has unreliable accuracy. The difference between kowtow cleave and night slash is much different, because 85bp is only good, while 70bp on night slash is just piss weak. And no, a crit chance doesn't make night slash a good move as it's unreliable as all get out.

Just look at these numbers. Bisharp has a better match-up into the banded Pult, and only falls short in having a 1/8 chance to not OHKO Pult from full, assuming hazards are not up. Against Specs Pult, Kingambit is slightly more favored, but Bisharp still doesn't slack.

Given how similar the calcs are, let's take a minute to think about how things would go if Bisharp also got Supreme Overlord. Sure, you don't have that additional 10 base Attack (Which translates to 22 Attack points of difference) but you're still just as threatening as Kingambit could be

These calcs aren't really noticable in practice and they don't make Bisharp look any better, because no matter how little it takes, it does jack squat back to opposing teams with switch in chances as it does not exhibit a threatening presence due to a lack of spammable stabs (no good dark stab and iron head is a bad attacking type), and it having to run eviolite severely cuts into power, making that lack of oomph even worse. All it does is come in and soak a hit from the ghosts you use it to check, then thud into whatever the opponent switches out to and you've essentially accomplished nothing.

So no, Bisharp is not even in the same realm of threatening of Kingambit. If you want a ghost check, there are better options.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Honestly the only thing that needs to be suspect tested is Dire Claw / Sneasler and we'll have a really solid metagame. Lets start a bandwagon and see if we can petition for a Sneasler / Dire Claw suspect in the near future.

honestly I'm not particularly bothered by Dire Claw. Half of Sneaslers never even click it. Dire Claw is a decent STAB move on Sneasler which is a very good setup sweeper but I really think that fact is pretty independent of dire claw.

Dire claw has a 16.6% chance of rolling sleep and a 16.6% chance of rolling paralysis. If this does not happen, you've used a poison move and someone who's worried about sneasler setting up gets to react to it. Sneasler is pretty frail so it's either getting tapped this turn or here comes the check.

people complain about Sneasler "haxing its way through its checks" but 5 out of 6 times Dire Claw doesn't roll sleep. Paralysis can be as disastrous with how hard it hits but really 65% of the time Sneasler trying to do this ends in a dead Sneasler, and it activates less common than commonly accepted things like Static and Flame Body, with the drawback of having to choose a poison move rather than the non drawback of switching into a check. Fucking Shadow Ball can muscle through checks with the SpD drop. Dire Claw isn't much more crippling than Lava Plume or Discarge. What's a burned physical attacker going to do that a sleeping one isn't?

It's very easy to sweep with Swords Dance Unburden sets, Sneasler's very good. All it needs for a deadly sweep is simply to be hit by something that doesn't one shot it and that might be a little questionable. It might need to be looked at, especially if we get perma tera in the tier, But Dire Claw has nothing to do with how good Sneasler is. And poison touch sets are bad

 

[awyp]

honestly I'm not particularly bothered by Dire Claw. Half of Sneaslers never even click it. Dire Claw is a decent STAB move on Sneasler which is a very good setup sweeper but I really think that fact is pretty independent of dire claw.

Dire claw has a 16.6% chance of rolling sleep and a 16.6% chance of rolling paralysis. If this does not happen, you've used a poison move and someone who's worried about sneasler setting up gets to react to it. Sneasler is pretty frail so it's either getting tapped this turn or here comes the check.

people complain about Sneasler "haxing its way through its checks" but 5 out of 6 times Dire Claw doesn't roll sleep. Paralysis can be as disastrous with how hard it hits but really 65% of the time Sneasler trying to do this ends in a dead Sneasler, and it activates less common than commonly accepted things like Static and Flame Body, with the drawback of having to choose a poison move rather than the non drawback of switching into a check. Fucking Shadow Ball can muscle through checks with the SpD drop. Dire Claw isn't much more crippling than Lava Plume or Discarge. What's a burned physical attacker going to do that a sleeping one isn't?

It's very easy to sweep with Swords Dance Unburden sets, Sneasler's very good. All it needs for a deadly sweep is simply to be hit by something that doesn't one shot it and that might be a little questionable. It might need to be looked at, especially if we get perma tera in the tier, But Dire Claw has nothing to do with how good Sneasler is. And poison touch sets are bad

It's the same logic as Quick Claw, on how it's only a 20% chance but when it activates it screws up the entire game plan, I understand the % it's an uncompetitive move because when people use it they're trying to cheese their way to victory, and outside of that Sneasler is a fantastic mon that has many options for different sets so it only boosts on how threatening it could be, I feel like people are also not familiar enough with sets that are untapped which I feel can turn the meta on it's head tbh.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 258-304 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[veti]

What's a burned physical attacker going to do that a sleeping one isn't?

1: burn doesn't matter for defensive checks and special attackers
2: sleep makes moves do 0 damage, burned physical attackers can still hurt sneasler.

 

[JunkoAJ]

There has been a clear, unquestionable correlation between survey responses and tiering action. Let's do some trend analysis with some surveys and suspects since I took over as OUTL:

• Kyurem received 69% support from the qualified playerbase, so it was suspected in late 2021
• Weavile received 38% support from the qualified playerbase, so it was not suspected in early 2022
• Melmetal received 34.8% support from the qualified playerbase, so it was not suspected in mid 2022
• Melmetal received 58% support from the qualified playerbase, so it was suspected in late 2022
• Chien-Pao received 79% support from the qualified playerbase, so it was suspected (actually very close to a QB) in early 2023
• Kingambit received 65% support from the qualified playerbase in mid 2023...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682144521574907906

So everyone is going to vote ban right? There's no way this mon can stick around with or without Tera. I feel like this has to end up the most one-sided suspect this Generation.

 

[ownerfloor]

Yea, kingambit is leaving the tier.

 

[Delibird Heart]

easiest dnb of my life, garg is the only mon that needs to go rn. gambit is holding the tier together and is also not the broken reverse sweeper everyone makes it out to be if you know the word "gameplan".

 

[Naturalharmoniax]

Please don't ban the king
It is holding the tier together
If it gets banned Gholdengo and Dragapult become impossible to answer

 

[Mynism]

I feel like rain teams have been optimized to a certain archetype and there's not much room left for innovations until the arrival of Crawdaunt or maybe Scald tutor. Pelipper - an electric type - two water abusers - two mons that will do whatever you want.

What I feel is maybe the best core, from my experience and from other people teams has to be Basculegion, Zapdos and Greninja.

sinergizes with Greninja because it is physical, Wave crash recoil is hardly a problem since its main purpose is to take hp off enemy water resist and force random tera water, also Aqua jet allows you to at least try to outplay Kingambit, something its female counterpart could only do by running substitute.
is the best thing we have left from last generation and usually the electric type you want on your rain, as you always want one to beat water types and abuse things like tera water garganacl or galarian slowking while keeping momentum with volt switch.
with battle bond is hands down the most powerful late game mon you want to click a water move on. After the Basculegion suicide, it becomes easy to get a kill and proc its ability, then you just kill everything. And of course, it helps vs Kingambit with its typing and priority move.

There are for sure interesting alternatives such as using Thundurus-T or Volt absorb Pawmot as your electric type to help your Zapdos matchup, and good abusers like the almighty Golduck that can run any kind of black magic with access to NP/Encore/Disable/Hypnosis, good offensive coverage and Swift swim. But let us get back to our aforementioned core.

Adding brother Pelipper, we have only two spaces left for pokemons, and there are a few problems we have to deal with :

absolutely destroy us if they can set up, especially under screens.
will leave us no winning options if deployed while rain is down.
are special attackers we can't allow to gain momentum.
win condition is still a threat.

And lastly, we have no hazards control whatsoever. Many holes to fill for only two pokemons still allowed. This is where the fun begins and everyone has its own take. I've seen people run Iron treads and Eject pack Amoonguss with bulky tera fairy Zapdos. I've seen people run Ting lu and Kingambit, some going Ting lu/Great tusk in an attempt to keep up with the hazards game. Some just ignore hazards and field one special and one physical tanks, a move that basicaly put your team on a timer even lower than what you would already expect from the offensive rain playstyle.

I am one of those as my two mons are as follow:
specially defensive with Eject button and Spore for momentum.
tera fairy is what I use as a check to the physical threats. It has the luxury of not being as weak to Zapdos as the others.

I felt like I basicaly did a RMT in the wrong forum part. Now, tell me about you. Which mons do you choose to run as your two fillers ? Are there any good unexplored options, what do you think of the 3 mons core I spoke of ? Do you feel as well that Zapdos is a real threat or am i just completely paranoid ? What do you think of rain teams in this generation ?

Anyway, I am going to try out Hydration Rest Whirlpool Alomomola, maybe it is the best way I can ride the wave to victory.

 

[Deathbringer7]

Please don't ban the king
It is holding the tier together
If it gets banned Gholdengo and Dragapult become impossible to answer

That is a very poor way to think about it. Not only do we have sturdy ghost resists in Ting Lu and Garganacl that can take on Pult and Gholdie, Kingambit is itself a negative presence on the tier, with its lists of answers across it's Tera types being very thin. This is the "broken checks broken" mentality that is shunned and rightfully so, it always leads to the tier remaining in a worse state. Just cause Pult *might* be broken (not even a certainty) does not mean we have to entertain a broken pokemon just because it answers Pult.

 

[Froctopus]

That is a very poor way to think about it. Not only do we have sturdy ghost resists in Ting Lu and Garganacl that can take on Pult and Gholdie, Kingambit is itself a negative presence on the tier, with its lists of answers across it's Tera types being very thin. This is the "broken checks broken" mentality that is shunned and rightfully so, it always leads to the tier remaining in a worse state. Just cause Pult *might* be broken (not even a certainty) does not mean we have to entertain a broken pokemon just because it answers Pult.

I hate the way you put this because it actually changed my mind. If we get rid of the Ghost Killer, aka King Gambit, the ghosts, dragapult and gholden, will rise up. If Garg and Ting Lu step up to fill the void this creates more of incentive to run bulkier teams. Which would in fact change the meta.

 

[Deathbringer7]

I hate the way you put this because it actually changed my mind. If we get rid of the Ghost Killer, aka King Gambit, the ghosts, dragapult and gholden, will rise up. If Garg and Ting Lu step up to fill the void this creates more of incentive to run bulkier teams. Which would in fact change the meta.

Another thing to mention is that Gambit is also boxing out other offensive dark types like Meow and Moon. While admittedly not a perfect comparison, if I'm going to add a dark type win condition on my team, Moon is going to be hard pressed to compete with the very powerful Gambit. Meow also won't be forced to become just a U Turn bot into Gambit (unless it runs Low Kick) , in a Gambit less meta it could shine as an offensive check to the ghosts especially since now it could easily fit Sucker. Imo Gambit is putting far too much strain on the tier to account for its myriad of sets (Tusk loses Tera Flying and Fairy, Dozo gets fucked up by Tera Dark Black Glasses, Ace and Moltres can't reliably Wisp it if it's Lum or Tera Fire). Yes those sets can be scouted in game, I won't say you can't deduce it's Tera from team composition and in game play, but it's still ridiculous to account for in the teambuilder and still results in unreasonable scenarios for the person going up against Kingambit as Gambit checks are prone to getting chipped and there's still the unpredictability of *when* it's going to Tera (the infamous Tusk EQ/Ice Spinner dilemma into Flying Gambit)

Expanding more on the Gambit less meta situation, I forgot to mention generally good SpDef mons like Clodsire and other darks like the new Samurott, which can effectively run Scarf to offensively check both ghosts while forcing even more progress with the spikes it lays. Claiming Gambit is "holding the tier together" or "tier is ruined without Gambit" is very presumptuous as reasonable counterplay, at least in theory, does exist and there hasn't been an environment where Pult is demonstrably broken in the absence of Gambit where this claim can be proven, but we're clearly seeing the negatively centralizing effect of Gambit on the tier in the current meta.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Claims that Kingambit is somehow the "only check" in the tier to Pult/Dengo are pretty similar to claims that Volcarona was somehow the "only check" to Valiant. In reality, what people saying this really mean is: "This is the only `mon that I can switch in and then threaten to immediately win the game".

Like, somebody was *just* posting calcs about how "Bisharp can't check Dragapult throughout a match" but, uh, Gambit can't either. Especially against 'Pult. Against 112 HP Gambit, Specs Draco deals >40, Shadow Ball deals ~25, Flamethrower deals >75. Without lefties, you can't switch in repeatedly, without boots, hazard damage wracks up fast. Its only real value in that MU comes from its ability to switch after `Pult has already clicked Draco or Shadow Ball (or into a predicted Shadow Ball) and proceed to set up itself. Seriously, the best play you can make with Gambit against Pult + Dengo teams is just let a couple of `mons die to scout sets, get some chip, and build up Supreme Overlord so it can just sweep; how is that a "defensive answer" to ghost spam?

In terms of checking these specific threats, Gambit is plainly worse at the job than, for instance, Ting-Lu, who, by virtue of actually wanting to invest in SpDef, takes less from Draco and Make It Rain despite not resisting them while 2HKOing both Dengo and Pult most of the time with either EQ or Ruination -> EQ (in the case of Air Balloon). Worst case: Gholdengo clicks tera flying: congrats! You just gave it a much worse typing that prevents it from Spin Blocking *and* makes it easier for other `mons to handle! It's also less threatened by Focus Miss/Tera Fighting shenanigans than Gambit.

Ruination + Hazards everywhere + WW mean you can't even raise the "but but but passive!" complaint because nothing wants to lose > half its health just for switching in or get stuck in a phasing loop (especially with the potential to pop a 'mon's Booster Energy early). Honestly, I think Gambit's presence has kept people from experimenting with the depth of Ting-Lu's kit, keeping it almost exclusively in a hazard setting role. Seriously, has anybody ever run, say, Sub/Ruination/EQ/WW Ting Lu? Because, uh, that sounds effing terrifying on paper.

Obviously, Ting-Lu is the gold standard, but a few other viable `mons that can keep Pult/Dengo at bay by actually making a minimal effort:
Sp Def Tera Water Garg
Tera Fairy Roaring Moon (especially bulky versions with boots, which can keep pressure up over the match)
Assault Vest Iron Hands/Ursaluna (niche sets, but with plenty of utility; Tera Ghost Bulletproof AV Luna is not exactly good, but it sure is funny)
Alomuk
Any number of Scarfers that can either revenge or force them out to eat more hazard damage (S/O to Lando/Adamant Garchomp, who can switch into anything but Specs Draco and threaten to OHKO if you're in a position to commit to Tera Ground).

Gambit isn't a "necessary evil" to keep the tier from getting overrun by Ghost Spam. It's just the easiest thing to win with against Ghost Spam if your opponent isn't specifically teching against it.

 

[658Greninja]

Please don't ban the king
It is holding the tier together
If it gets banned Gholdengo and Dragapult become impossible to answer

Not true. Heck, Gambit isn’t even the best Pult check. It gets 2HKOd by Flamethrower or burnt by Wisp. If anything, Gambit being banned will only free up teambuilding, now you don’t need 2-3 Gambit checks on a team, thus more room to fill in Ghost resists. G-King becomes a better Fairy check because it isn’t pressured out by their best partner Gambit anymore.

Moreso, the list of ghost resists/ghost checks in not short.

-SpD Tran
-Ting-Lu
-Garg (Esp Tera Water or Fairy)
-Hamurott
-SpD Molt
-Ursa
-G-Molt
-A-Muk
-Roaring Moon
-AV Pex

Keeping a broken threat just cause it beats the ghosts is not a good argument to keep it. In fact, removing Gambit would incentivize the use of ghost resists like A-Muk and G-Molt since Gambit also did well vs them. Gambit would most likely be healthy in a no-Tera meta, but since we don’t live in that timeline, we have to deal with Tera Flying/Fairy/Dark/Fire Gambit til the inevitable suspect.

On a side note

Has anyone tried Scarf Sneasler or Pads Sneasler? The former outspeeds the likes of Booster Valiant, Wake under sun, +1 Moon, and Basculegion in rain with Switcheroo to punish its checks while the latter lets it freely click Dire Claw/U-Turn while the opponent wonders why their Zapdos isn’t proccing Static.

 

[Magcargo]

Gambit doesn't even win vs Ghost Spam. Gholdengo's Trick + Dragapult's Wisp are big limiting factors to stop it from 6-0ing such teams.