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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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specially defensive amoongus beats all non-specs ogre sets. That's why it's a check and not a counter. Ice beam fails to 2hko without specs, gets spored, then the world is your oyster.

Yes we are aware that practically nothing besides Palkia doesn't get 2hkoed by specs full hp water spout. That's been a thing dating back to gen 3. But on the other hand, it shouldn't be getting out for free, and rocks quickly shreds any chance of getting that 2hko. Its been dealt with since R/S/E. On paper it's incredibly hard to if not uncounterable because almost nothing survives 2 hits, and most of the things that do don't ohko back, in practice not so much.
 
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Floatstonemafia said:
specially defensive amoongus beats all non-specs ogre sets.
Click to expand...

Sub CM sets for Kyogre beat Amoonguss 1v1

Here's the set from SV Ubers Kyogre page (It's pretty normal for Kyogre to use):
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 240 HP / 204 Def / 64 Spe
Tera Type: Fairy
Bold Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
 
clear smog is pretty standard on amoongus. Unless you get really unlucky with the sleep turns spore -> clear smog generally handles it.

But we've taken a major detour into ubers talk. Probably best to swing back to OU matters.
 
Finchinator said:
Kingambit suspect is now up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...cess-round-5-kings-dead.3725121/#post-9715486

OLT is also up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ament-x-cycle-1-signups.3725122/#post-9715487

You can ladder for the suspect on an OLT alt if you follow the rules.
Click to expand...
>not a farewell to kings
>not the court of the crimson king
>not king of pain
>not it's good to be king
>not KING by kanaria
>not i've seen all good people
>not fool's mate by peter hammill
>not anything from red queen to gryphon three (especially checkmate)

finch, i'm sorry, but i have to diagnose you with a terminal case of having no taste whatsoever
 
I think the most controversial thing about this suspect test is going to be that you had the whole wide world of songs with king in their name at your fingertips, and this was the one you landed on.

Little did you know that when you woke up today you were not going to get flak for your choices as a format leader but your choices as a suspect thread song picker.
 
ianlazerbeem said:
There is literally nothing wrong with Leppa + Revival Blessing seeing as it requires you to run one of two shitmons and only brings threats back to half health
Click to expand...
I've mentioned this before, but Revival Blessing is only as good as whatever broken shit is running around to abuse it. Otherwise it's too much of a teambuilding constraint to run Pawmot or whatever it's called.
 
I don't think there's a single mon that can be both legal in OU and worth using an NU mon for Revival Blessing. Anything powerful enough to be worth giving up two teamslots to lob a nuke in the enemy team twice is almost too implicitly powerful for OU without using it twice. And even if you did some really stupid shit like drop Calyrex - S to OU, you still would not use it in conjunction with Revival Blessing. You would still rather use an actual mon to support Calyrex - S. Or a screen setter so it can do it's job the first time, or a slow pivot to get it in safely to set up. Or a sweeper that can take advantage of the big gaping hole it left in the enemy team.

Revival Blessing has a big problem - what are you reviving at 50% hp that isn't immediately getting refragged where getting to use it twice is worth using a very bad mon. The best use case seems to be using it in a psuedo-HO method where you plow it into a wall, cripple the wall but sack the mon, and then bring it back to finish the job. But why wouldn't you just use another sweeper that hits the same wall? Maybe it has some niche value in stall to revive a mon and have it heal back up? But then neither of the two users are remotely good in stall. And at what level is it just better to run Veil Abomasnow and provide a similar benefit over the team? There's no surprise factor with Revival Blessing, you know it's there in the team preview, so it's not like you're going to be able to sack your critical mon, get the enemy to give up their counter since they no longer need it, and bring it back to win.

If it had better distribution, it might be a bigger problem. You'd have to stick on a mon that's not going to insta-die for using it, is an decent uu/ou mon on it's own merits, contributes to the team outside of it, and can afford to give up a turn to use it, like toxapex or something. Maybe there's a super niche strategy that comes out down the road that makes it a problem like if they make a pheramosa-style mon with stab explosion and scrappy and you can nuke anything with it. but right now, I don't think it's worth anything attached to such bad mons. Especially when Pawmot is so fragile that you're basically just using a glorified healing wish.
 
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Floatstonemafia said:
I don't think there's a single mon that can be both legal in OU and worth using an NU mon for Revival Blessing. Anything powerful enough to be worth giving up two teamslots to lob a nuke in the enemy team twice is almost too implicitly powerful for OU without using it twice. And even if you did some really stupid shit like drop Calyrex - S to OU, you still would not use it in conjunction with Revival Blessing. You would still rather use an actual mon to support Calyrex - S. Or a screen setter so it can do it's job the first time, or a slow pivot to get it in safely to set up. Or a sweeper that can take advantage of the big gaping hole it left in the enemy team.

Revival Blessing has a big problem - what are you reviving at 50% hp that isn't immediately getting refragged where getting to use it twice is worth using a very bad mon. The best use case seems to be using it in a psuedo-HO method where you plow it into a wall, cripple the wall but sack the mon, and then bring it back to finish the job. But why wouldn't you just use another sweeper that hits the same wall? Maybe it has some niche value in stall to revive a mon and have it heal back up? But then neither of the two users are remotely good in stall. And at what level is it just better to run Veil Abomasnow and provide a similar benefit over the team? There's no surprise factor with Revival Blessing, you know it's there in the team preview, so it's not like you're going to be able to sack your critical mon, get the enemy to give up their counter since they no longer need it, and bring it back to win.

If it had better distribution, it might be a bigger problem. You'd have to stick on a mon that's not going to insta-die for using it, is an decent uu/ou mon on it's own merits, contributes to the team outside of it, and can afford to give up a turn to use it, like toxapex or something. Maybe there's a super niche strategy that comes out down the road that makes it a problem like if they make a pheramosa-style mon with stab explosion and scrappy and you can nuke anything with it. but right now, I don't think it's worth anything attached to such bad mons. Especially when Pawmot is so fragile that you're basically just using a glorified healing wish.
Click to expand...

Revival Blessing is strong with two mons:

Rage Fist Primeape
Regenerator

-----

I am pro King Gambit ban but I cannot get reqs.
 
Floatstonemafia said:
I mean it's technically true, as long as you only have to check one at a time and don't mind making your team overall worse to deal with that one mon. Like just running down a list of Ubers mon in arbitrary order of viability.

Zacian C - countered by quagsire and clodsire, checked by corviknight, scarfed users.

Koraidon - Countered by Skeledirge, Dodonzo, Toxapex, alomomola, checked by scarf users and specific Iron Valiant sets

Miraidon - Countered by Blissey, checked by clodsire, ting-lu

Eteranus - Countered by Ting-lu and Blissey, checked by Garg, Dragapult

Kyogre - Countered by Blissey, checked by Amoongus

Groudon - Countered by Dondonzo, checked by Lando-T, pelipper,

You kind of get the point by now.

The weird thing about ubers is that for the most part, excluding stuff like Lugia and Giratina, cover legendaries are offensive in nature so the defensive check pool is largely the same as in OU. So while most of those mons make your team worse without a team with Zacian on it, if it was legal you'd be able to deal with it. Would it be a huge hassle? Absolutely. Which is why they're ubers. It's also why ubers is even without tera/dynamax an overly aggressive format, because up there broken absolutely checks broken.

> Are you sure about this? Right now, the worst ubers (those that are D or Unranked in the VR), are mostly those that have been banned from OU, like Annihilape, Espathra, Palafin, and Magearna, mons that have been proven to be nigh uncheckable in OU and broken.

None of them were uncheckable. All of them were overly burdensome to check. There's a difference. No reasonable person thinks that having to jam blissey or toxapex on every team to check Fluttermane makes for a good format, but it's technically doable.
Click to expand...

Clodsire gets smashed by Zacians Behemoth Blade, Dondozo & Skeledirge are a lot closer to decent answers to it but all except Skeledirge are extremely passive. Blissey is setup fodder for Miraidons boosting sets and is forced to Recover vs specs and loses to Specs and some CM Kyogre, Groudon either sets up hazards on Dondozo or could 2HKO with some special move if it really wants to + CB Tera Ground does this funny calc: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 314-370 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Anyway at least you mention that these high ranked Ubers and pretty much all the low ranked ones would make the OU meta either way too restrictive or just unplayable and i kinda hope the talk about these mons would stop soon without mods interference cause there's just way more important things rn then discussing why all currently released Ubers should not be freed.
 
Medeia said:
Clodsire gets smashed by Zacians Behemoth Blade, Dondozo & Skeledirge are a lot closer to decent answers to it but all except Skeledirge are extremely passive. Blissey is setup fodder for Miraidons boosting sets and is forced to Recover vs specs and loses to Specs and some CM Kyogre, Groudon either sets up hazards on Dondozo or could 2HKO with some special move if it really wants to + CB Tera Ground does this funny calc: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 314-370 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Anyway at least you mention that these high ranked Ubers and pretty much all the low ranked ones would make the OU meta either way too restrictive or just unplayable and i kinda hope the talk about these mons would stop soon without mods interference cause there's just way more important things rn then discussing why all currently released Ubers should not be freed.
Click to expand...
It had stopped before you came back to it now. I never intended this to become a long argument and we should have stopped it at the comment you are quoting. It is not that there is no way to stop them but that it would be too centralizing as I said. Now let us move to the next possible uber, kingambit. Nice job Finchinator idm the song personally.
 
Honestly I think this gambit suspect is gonna be very spilt and very close regardless. I think its gonna be 50% ban 40% no ban and I don't see it getting a supermajority of 60% but we shall see.

It looks to me like a 50/50 split on it being fine or not from what the surveys imply, so I wouldn't be surprised either if it barely got banned or barely missed out on being banned.
 
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I think something that will have to be said repeatedly is: This is a Kingambit suspect, not a Tera suspect. Don't leave KG because you think Tera's the problem, or because you expect Tera/TBlast to be banned later. In this meta, at this time, is KG broken y/n?

I expect a lot of discussion of Tera to end up happening while the KG discussion is happening(because Tera-Ghost/Flying/Fairy is such a big part of it's defensive profile), but the meta and the rules are that Tera is allowed.
 
Medeia said:
Clodsire gets smashed by Zacians Behemoth Blade, Dondozo & Skeledirge are a lot closer to decent answers to it but all except Skeledirge are extremely passive. Blissey is setup fodder for Miraidons boosting sets and is forced to Recover vs specs and loses to Specs and some CM Kyogre, Groudon either sets up hazards on Dondozo or could 2HKO with some special move if it really wants to + CB Tera Ground does this funny calc: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 314-370 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Anyway at least you mention that these high ranked Ubers and pretty much all the low ranked ones would make the OU meta either way too restrictive or just unplayable and i kinda hope the talk about these mons would stop soon without mods interference cause there's just way more important things rn then discussing why all currently released Ubers should not be freed.
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"Skeledirge is extremely passive"
Me, with my Sub 3 Attacks Dirge: :zonger:
 
BijouMode said:
You are right that none of the mons are uncheckable, definitely, but, to some extent the mons can't be countered by things in OU.

Take Zacian for example, without Tera, it can beat both of its supposed counters in Quagsire and Clodsire if it runs Trailblaze (for Quag) or Behemoth Blade (for Clod)

Or Koraidon, that without Tera, can use its Band set to beat every mon you named

Or Miraidon, that without Tera, can use its Substitute Double Dance set to beat Blissey

Or Eternatus, that without Tera, can use its phys def set + Toxic to beat Ting-Lu and Blissey

Or Groudon, that without Tera, can use its wallbreaking set to beat Dondozo

All of these sets are possible without tera, beat their counter in a 1v1 where the counter has max defenses, and they are all entirely usable against the rest of the Ubers Meta.
Click to expand...

Pretty much nothing can be "countered" in OU seeing as anything can choose its defensive type and add an 80BP 3rd STAB of its choice
 
Floatstonemafia said:
I don't think there's a single mon that can be both legal in OU and worth using an NU mon for Revival Blessing. Anything powerful enough to be worth giving up two teamslots to lob a nuke in the enemy team twice is almost too implicitly powerful for OU without using it twice. And even if you did some really stupid shit like drop Calyrex - S to OU, you still would not use it in conjunction with Revival Blessing. You would still rather use an actual mon to support Calyrex - S. Or a screen setter so it can do it's job the first time, or a slow pivot to get it in safely to set up. Or a sweeper that can take advantage of the big gaping hole it left in the enemy team.

Revival Blessing has a big problem - what are you reviving at 50% hp that isn't immediately getting refragged where getting to use it twice is worth using a very bad mon. The best use case seems to be using it in a psuedo-HO method where you plow it into a wall, cripple the wall but sack the mon, and then bring it back to finish the job. But why wouldn't you just use another sweeper that hits the same wall? Maybe it has some niche value in stall to revive a mon and have it heal back up? But then neither of the two users are remotely good in stall. And at what level is it just better to run Veil Abomasnow and provide a similar benefit over the team? There's no surprise factor with Revival Blessing, you know it's there in the team preview, so it's not like you're going to be able to sack your critical mon, get the enemy to give up their counter since they no longer need it, and bring it back to win.

If it had better distribution, it might be a bigger problem. You'd have to stick on a mon that's not going to insta-die for using it, is an decent uu/ou mon on it's own merits, contributes to the team outside of it, and can afford to give up a turn to use it, like toxapex or something. Maybe there's a super niche strategy that comes out down the road that makes it a problem like if they make a pheramosa-style mon with stab explosion and scrappy and you can nuke anything with it. but right now, I don't think it's worth anything attached to such bad mons. Especially when Pawmot is so fragile that you're basically just using a glorified healing wish.
Click to expand...
Obviously the best solution is to use revival blessing and lunar dance to bring one Pokémon back to full hp, duh
 
ianlazerbeem said:
Pretty much nothing can be "countered" in OU seeing as anything can choose its defensive type and add an 80BP 3rd STAB of its choice
Click to expand...

This isn't very relevant to the post I made, and also this I don't really think this correct, as the most bulky counters, like Blissey, Dondozo, Ting-Lu and things like ID Zamazenta-H, simply have too much bulk to be overwhelmed by the things they are meant to counter. This, of course, doesn't apply to every case, for instance mons that have the sheer power to blow through their counters with STAB coverage.
 
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