Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[TPP]

Hello everyone! With the first DLC, The Teal Mask, finally being released, you all are free to start discussing the new SV OU metagame here! Like always, I will list things in a similar manner to the role compendium to help distinguish potential roles. I'll try to keep it updated as we get more information. Enjoy!

Resources:

Here is a text dump with available pokemon and their stats, abilities and full move list
Here is a doc by RoiDadadou that has all the information as well
New move distrubition can be found here
Move additions for existing pokemon can be found here

Pokemon unbanned from Ubers:

(To be decided)

New Pokemon:

Returning Pokemon:

Entry Hazards:

Spikes:

Stealth Rock:

Sticky Web:

Toxic Spikes:

Hazard Removal:

Defog:

Rapid Spin:

Tidy Up:

Setup Sweepers/Breakers:

Belly Drum:

Bulk Up:

Calm Mind:

Coil:

Clangorous Soul:

Dragon Dance:

Nasty Plot:

Quiver Dance:

Shell Smash:

Swords Dance:

Tail Glow:

Take Heart:

Tidy Up:

Weather:

Rain:

Sand:

Snow:

Sun:

Limited Distribution (Only listing new additions):

Knock Off:

Scald:

Toxic:

 

[TPP]

New Abilities:

Mind's Eye: The Pokémon ignores changes to opponents' evasiveness, its accuracy can't be lowered, and it can hit Ghost types with Normal- and Fighting-type moves.
Supersweet Syrup: A sickly sweet scent spreads across the field the first time the Pokémon enters a battle, lowering the evasiveness of opposing Pokémon.
Hospitality: When the Pokémon enters a battle, it showers its ally with hospitality, restoring a small amount of the ally's HP.
Toxic Chain: The power of the Pokémon's toxic chain may badly poison any target the Pokémon hits with a move.
Embody Aspect - Teal Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Teal Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Speed stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Wellspring Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Wellspring Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Sp. Def stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Hearthflame Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Hearthflame Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Attack stat to be boosted.
Embody Aspect - Cornerstone Mask: The Pokémon's heart fills with memories, causing the Cornerstone Mask to shine and the Pokémon's Defense stat to be boosted.

Pokemon with new abilities:

Shiftry now has Wind Rider
Empoleon now has Competitive

New Moves:

Ogerpon Mechanics:

1. Ogerpon has 4 base forms:
- Teal Mask / No Mask (Grass-type)
- Wellspring Mask (Grass/Water-type)
- Hearthflame Mask (Grass/Fire-type)
- Cornerstone Mask (Grass/Rock-type)

2. Each base form has a different ability:

- Teal Mask (Defiant)
- Wellspring Mask (Water Absorb)
- Hearthflame Mask (Mold Breaker)
- Cornerstone Mask (Sturdy)

3. Ogerpon is in the Teal Mask form by default, and in order to have it appear in the other forms, it will need to be holding the Wellspring / Hearthflame / Cornerstone mask items. In other words, the pure Grass form is not item-locked, while the 3 forms require a held item.

4. Ogerpon cannot change its tera types. It is locked into:

- Grass (Teal Mask)
- Water (Wellspring Mask)
- Fire (Hearthflame Mask)
- Rock (Cornerstone Mask)

5. When Ogerpon terastillizes, it will gain a new ability, replacing the old one. Each of these new abilities will boost a stat by 1 stage every time Ogerpon comes in (think of Gen 8 Intrepid Sword/Dauntless Shield):

- Teal Mask (+1 Speed)
- Wellspring Mask (+1 Special Defense)
- Hearthflame Mask (+1 Attack)
- Cornerstone Mask (+1 Defense)

6. Ogerpon's signature move, Ivy Cudgel changes type depending on the mask that is held:

- Teal Mask (any item or no item) (Grass)
- Wellspring Mask (Water)
- Hearthflame Mask (Fire)
- Cornerstone Mask (Rock)

7. When Ogerpon is holding any of the mask items, it will receive a 1.2x boost to all of its attacks.

A short summary would be:

- In order to use Ogerpon's Embody Aspect abilities, it requires an item slot and it requires your terastallization, which is a very high opportunity cost compared to other pokemon. Ogerpon's tera type is also locked, meaning that it's not capable of running unexpected tera types. The Teal Mask (pure Grass-type) Ogerpon is capable of running any item while being able to get the Speed Boost from Embody Aspect if it decides to terastillize, while the other 3 forms are all item locked.

 

[TPP]

Some fun questions to get us started off. Also while we're at it, try to stay on track and avoid too many 1-liners and such. If you plan on memeing, I expect only the highest quality of memes from you all. Have a fun one

1. If I forgot/missed anything or if you think I should anything to the first 2 posts, feel free to share
2. What are you excited for most?
3. What are your expectations regarding hyper offense?
4. What are your expectations regarding bulky offense?
5. What are your expectations regarding balance?
6. What are yuor expectations regarding stall?
7. What former OU mon(s) are you expecting to plummet to UU or below?
8. Which mon(s) if any do you believe will get banned by the end of the month?
9. Is Knock Off enough to save Tyranitar from falling to UU?
10. Did you enjoy the Teal Mask DLC? Either way, I hope you enjoy the new changes for OU and have a nice day

 

[Srn]

Some fun questions to get us started off. Also while we're at it, try to stay on track and avoid too many 1-liners and such. If you plan on memeing, I expect only the highest quality of memes from you all. Have a fun one

1. If I forgot/missed anything or if you think I should anything to the first 2 posts, feel free to share
2. What are you excited for most?
3. What are your expectations regarding hyper offense?
4. What are your expectations regarding bulky offense?
5. What are your expectations regarding balance?
6. What are yuor expectations regarding stall?
7. What former OU mon(s) are you expecting to plummet to UU or below?
8. Which mon(s) if any do you believe will get banned by the end of the month?
9. Is Knock Off enough to save Tyranitar from falling out of UU?
10. Did you enjoy the Teal Mask DLC? Either way, I hope you enjoy the new changes for OU and have a nice day

2. I am excited to see baxcalibur banned do this OU
3. HO has more hstack potential with bullshit like knock WW, but overall I'm not that optimistic. It'll depend on how well you can handle the new addition of things like gliscor, clefable, etc. Weatherless HO must somehow deal with the usual bullshit sun can do but also buffed flip turning swift swimmers, atales setting veil with bax in the back, etc.
4. I think BO is going to be very strong with tons of options to abuse hstack, lots of new knock off mons, few new knock absorbers, potential volturn chains with the toxic chain trio, etc
5. I am a little less optimistic about balance. We got zero good new hazard removal options (mandibuzz does not do enough damage to bulky NP gholdengo, it just loses). With hazards as strong as ever, my outlook on balance is kinda grim.
6. Stall gets magic guard clef to absorb knock and remain immune to hazards, which is pretty huge. However, I think lots of new knock off mons like torn-t and wake can easily force through clefable, and the hstack dominance may continue to harass stall. There's also bullshit like manaphy, let me be real, manaphy is insane under rain with tera it has to go lmao.
7. I expect sandy shocks to fall off with gliscor, on top of lando-t, forcing shocks to tera and overall sandy shocks HO has been on the downtrend. It's strongest on sun teams and now sun has to compete with a powered up rain (manaphy+flip turn on swift swimmers) and a powered up snow (alolan ninetales), to a lesser extent a buffed sand with ttar+knock off.
8. I hope bax and manaphy are banned by the end of the month. Scale shot bax will probably be unreasonable, I think TG+rain manaphy is likewise insanely good.
9. I have hope for my boy. But not yet. We must wait for excadrill to return first.
10. Imagine giving money to TPC/GF. I also hope I enjoy the new changes to OU :]

 

[ant4456]

but if you close your eyes

it feels like nothing's changed at all

 

[TTK]

Just here to say that it is this Lycanroc () that has Knock Off and not this one () for the compendium thingy in OP.

Have a nice day OUers.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Just wanna say, F for Ogerpon. I didn't know you, but you will be missed.

 

[sims796]

Is Grassy Glide not important enough for a section?

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

I wonder if Crawdaunt could be added to the Rain section given its huge presence on that playstyle last gen at least.

 

[cyrtie]

All the new mons from the dlc so far are kinda mid to bad, I assume the true stuff will come with the next part of the dlc..

 

[DaemonChop]

Gliscor seems extremely good right now. Like, it always has been great in OU, and people were expecting it to be good this time too, but I don't think we were ready for double spiker lead gliscor. There are so many sets this thing can run, and the best part is that because of that it doesn't get in the way too much of other mons. You could totally run Gliscor and Tusk together and your team will probably be better for it. Scorpion supremacy baby!

 

[5camp]

Ah your returning list of Pokemon appear to be missing Shaymin Sky and Darkrai. How curious, perhaps you could add them?

yes I know they almost certainly get banned but fuck it I don't think Darkrai is any more powerful than Valiant and apparently that thing is fine

 

[VTMagno]

Very excited for mola as an amazing wish passer and gweezing as a defogger that doesnt get blocked by dengo, in particular. Those 2 sound really nice for balance teams.

On the other hand Aurora Veil + Bax sounds dreadful and I can't wait to face that core on like half my games

 

[matte]

Yay! So many fun mons to use in the DLC. Lets talk about Mola now, its probably one of the most buffed mons. It received a Scald AND Flip Turn. It can now slow Wish pass, and thanks to the PP of wish not being reduced, it can do that SIXTEEN TIMES. Scald is like miles better than Chilling Water and now things like Glowking can't switchin on it for free. Its now able to check Heatran of all things with Flip Turn. I Think Mola will be used on more than just stall, like BO as wish passing to mons with just leftovers recovery is massive. Imagine you use all your resources to stop a Gambit sweep and they just heal Gambit back up to full. Several bulky attackers like Baxcalibur will benefit from this as they can set up like 1-4 times a game (assuming they don't just kill you). Also, in such a hazard heavy meta, wish will help so much against hazard stack teams too.

As an agent of big stall, I personally think stocks are up. With Scald back and more members returning (mainly Clefable and Gliscor) and now mons (look for Fezandipiti) I think we can combat the added offenses We will get to take a deeper dive once our thoughts are organized by the wonderful people that update showdown eventually and we can see movepools without crafting it all in our head (I cannot for the life of me navigate the datamine).

Not fully read up on the dlc yet, but just by what I see (by playing the game and reading the datamine) but rain seems to be buffed like hella. It gets way more rain setters (all 3 setters have different tying and niches) more abusers in Crawdaunt and Manaphy (stall breakers). I feel like rain is gonna have a comeback as a playstyle.

(rip ele terrain, no tapus)
tbh i'm glad i hate the tapus

 

[veti]

2. Teal Mask Ogrepon. It has a cool movepool, an item slot and a nice ability.

Some sets I see for it:

Swords Dance

Ogrepon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Superpower
- Knock Off

Superpower hits most steels, Knock hits Gholdengo. Adamant because Terastalize will boost your speed.

Utility

Ogrepon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Ivy Cudgel
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Utility pivot with good speed and spikes, can't go wrong with this set

7. Heatrans time is up. Didn't get anything noteworthy and OU has an increased power level.

8. Walking Wake might get pushed to ubers depending on how Clodsire is affected by the meta shifts now that it gets flip turn.

9. No, it makes it better but doesn't fix any of the fundamental flaws that hold it back.

 

[658Greninja]

Brambleghast STOCKS going up with it being a spinner that can now outspeed and one-shot Ghold. Also having utility as a spinblocker and Zapdos check due to being immune to Hurricane.

As a side note I am a bit worried.

Rain just got ten times better with the introduction of Manaphy, and Flip Turn on Bascu/Barra/Floatzel.

Bax and Wake got buffed for some reason.

No new notable defoggers or spinners besides Ghast getting Polt.

A ton of Knock Off distribution.

Hopefully I’m wrong but this meta might be more spike focused. Thankfully we do have more defensive options this time around, thank you for buffing Mola GF.

 

[BijouMode]

Ah your returning list of Pokemon appear to be missing Shaymin Sky and Darkrai. How curious, perhaps you could add them?

yes I know they almost certainly get banned but fuck it I don't think Darkrai is any more powerful than Valiant and apparently that thing is fine

Wild opinion. Darkrai is Death, Destroyer of Worlds for OU. It has no walls to check it, and can only be rkilled (if its not running scarf).

Guess what? That's before it uses its Tera.

Kinda wild how one mon gets Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast right?

 

[LBN]

Think its about time we give Darkrai a shot. Between faster threats like Pult, Zama, booster sweepers and weather abusers there are a good amount of ways to revenge kill Darkrai, alongside other things like Sucker Kingambit, the new Vacuum wave I-Val among others. Additionally, there are multiple pokemon who can facetank shots from either a raw hit or a boosted Darkrai, like Ting Lu and Garg. It has a minor defensive profile, comparable to SS weavile with less pivots to use as easy entry. And while minor, it may suffer from minor 4MSS due to needing Dark pulse, and wanting Focus blast, sludgebomb NP, and then depending on their relevancy, Ice beam for Kommo-o and Mandibuzz. Another part is its relative lack of team support. Other Dark types like Kingambit, H-Samu, Ting Lu, and potentially Ttar all provide some form of team support whether it be knock off, spikes or a defensive profile. Of course, Darkrai does it's thing differently but the slot for your dark type is arguably the most contentious around.

On the flip side, Darkrai has some variety to it's name. Choiced sets w trick seem very good at devouring some fatter builds, and has some incredibly goofy moves to lean into like Disable, Hypnosis as Dark Void cope, and things like Taunt. That being said, I do think Darkrai deserves a fair shot this time around. I think some form a council voted ban / unban slate is inevitable, so the opportunity is certainly there.

Darkrai aside though, I believe there's some brokens unveiled these changes. Baxcalibur is going to be incredibly horseshit as expected, but Kommo-o is one of the goofiest tera abusers yet w tera normal boomburst memes, and Manaphy... yea you need to go buddy. Tera Manaphy is a sentence i seldom wish to see uttered, though it might be comparable to the ORAS hype train on it bashing all types of slower builds but faltering vs quicker paced teams.

I think the biggest zero to hero here will actually be G-Weezing. Being a defogger who doesnt actually give a shit about gholdengo is huge, while having other utilities like statusing Garg, checking Meowscarada, on top of it's defensive profile practically doubling w Levitate instead. Tusk counter, Chomp counter, Lando, Meow, sp def might give some leeway for Valiant list goes on. This things laundry list of utilities is massive and i think the moment it catches on it'll be big.

 

[RaikouLover]

Manaphy is back?! Hell yes. Let’s go. Let’s fucking go!

Rain is coming. Mwahahaha

 

[Senhorolho]

Manaphy is back?! Hell yes. Let’s go. Let’s fucking go!

Rain is coming. Mwahahaha

Till it gets banned in a month :> (joke (maybe))

 

[pika pal]

There are a few moves I think will come up in discussion to follow that affect a lot of incoming tiering, both directly and by ripple effect. Will number these but not necessarily going in order.

8. Let me start with an obvious: Baxcalibur getting Scale Shot is DEFINITELY getting him Suspected if not quickbanned before the month is out, give on the Loaded Dice Sets it's just better than Glaive Rush, which he already was proving contentious with for his sets in full. Bax getting the boot would be a big factor to two pokemon who were move beneficiaries regardless, with Scale Shot Garchomp returning his trademark Gen 8 SD approach and Roaring Moon gaining Knock Off for at minimum a stronger Dark STAB and in other cases a way to force progress despite its tight moveslots and coverage. I expect Garchomp to stay out of UU usage if he dodged that before, and Roaring Moon might make its way back into OU, especially if any of the Loyal 3 gaining traction reduces the presence of Fairy types (with Fezandipiti getting smacked by its usual EQ if it becomes the new Fairy).

4. I think Bulky Offense gained an interesting Pokemon to consider in Defog as an option for Conkeldurr. Guts with Facade/Drain Punch/Knock Off leaves a free slot to play with on those sets (much less other ability/approaches). Conk still hits pretty hard, has rare Priority access, and if you indulge my Defog meme, Guts Knock Off will KO non-Defensive Gholdengo even without an item after ~1 Spike's worth of Chip Damage, and will 2HKO Defensive after Spikes while Itemless unless it Teras. Maybe this says more about how many straws I have to grasp for Hazard Control in this Spike Pit of a Gen.

9. I think Knock Off will keep Tyranitar in UU on its own, since his main issue for a while has been no way to force progress when he blocks something with Sand Bulk like he could with Pursuit trapping. Knock Off alleviates this, just aimed at his checks instead of things he checks in turn. That said I don't see him making his way into OU unless the Sand partners are good and a couple problems for him like Kingambit hit the road.

2. I'm probably in the small contingent that's actually kind of excited to see Ogerpon in play, wherever that should be. Meowscarada has already proven that Grass as a main STAB can get you a surprising amount of mileage in OU despite the Flying types, and its stats are fine enough (110 falls a bit below Valiant but it's above a lot of notable stuff like Enamorus, Zapdos, and Moth) on that front. Teal Mask is probably preferred for item access, though Ivy Cudgel is essentially just a better Tera Blast if you use the other forms and viable main STAB (that or Horn Leech for Grass purposes) with that power and higher crit rate. The limited Tera typing is troublesome, but it's not like OU is a stranger to offensively-focused Tera choices as is, and the non-limited Stat Boosts are of some note as a power gain in exchange for that predictability. The other reason I think Teal Mask will be its best option is because its boosted stat is Speed with Embody Aspect, easily the most significant stat in the game if you're only gonna do one. If you commit your Tera to it, you're getting +1 Speed on top of the Tera STAB for the attack, which I could see doing well as a lategame Cleaner or SD Sweeper after Spikes have worn a bunch of stuff out, and pairs well with Rillaboom as a Pivot if you want to try overwhelming Grass Checks with Terrain boosted Spam/Glide. This without going through the other forms which, even without Tera, I think have ways to make a mark on teams like Tera Fire's sheer power into switch-ins after a +1.

+1 252 Atk Tera Fire Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 254-300 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

I don't expect a Meta Titan or even an OU usage given the shit we have just going into this, but if stuff like Gliscor or potential Suspects has any effect on slowing the Meta down, there's probably something to play with here beyond Morkal level cooking at least.

10. DLC has been fun so far, main story took me an evening to complete and it's one reason I really wanna find a tier to run Ogerpon in, since I thought the battles did a good job of showing off the gimmick as well as endearing me to her as a character.

 

[Magcargo]

Manaphy is back?! Hell yes. Let’s go. Let’s fucking go!

Rain is coming. Mwahahaha

Flip turn floatzel, Bara, and basc too. Rain is eating good.

Ngl I think the widespread knock dist will be bad for the game. Knocking off leftovers and boots makes hazards harder to deal with & will make low PP recovery sting even more. I am predicting we'll need to do something serious against spikes. Of course this is just speculation.

 

[Maxicheese]

Roaring Moon is also interesting since it gain a pretty strong stab with Knock off and can be pretty neat with DD.

 

[awyp]

I think a Baxcalibur suspect test is NEEDED over a Baxcalibur quick ban. I'll be the first to say that.

 

[taziathegreat]

Manaphy is back?! Hell yes. Let’s go. Let’s fucking go!

Rain is coming. Mwahahaha

manaphy doesn’t even need rain anymore since take heart is calm mind and refresh all in one with Tera it can sit in stuff for days.

honestly the manaphy bax and kommoo trio sounds scary behinda veil.

The disloyal trio really intrigue me though they aren’t as good as I thought they’d be, but they aren’t bad by any means I’m am kind of struggling to see what fezandipiti does long term. Like obviously roost and uturn but beyond that like is beat up an option just for the damage and guarantee toxic affect ?