I don't think Kyurem made it on the initial banlist they voted on for BW, but I could be wrong. It's somewhere buried in the Policy Review archives I'm pretty sure
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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I talked about this a few pages ago so I'm gonna quote myself, but I don't see why ubers need to necessarily add something to the tier if they are otherwise not seen as broken.
I suppose the next argument is that dropping ubers would add another threat to account for and thus limit teambuilding. I don't think this is true because if it was, wouldn't every time gamefreak drops a new DLC of 10+ viable mons permanently disrupt teambuilding? Wouldn't every generation be harder and harder to teambuild for because there are more and more pokemon available to choose from? Even if this was true to a very small extent, why would we draw the line with one single pokemon even though DLC 2 is gonna give us a lot more than one single viable mon and everyone seems fine with that?
I don't think what makes teambuilding harder or easier necessarily depends on the sheer amount of threats one needs to account for. For example, when volc was banned, one might think "Great, now teambuilding will be easier because I don't need to account for volc", but, perhaps the absence of volc made gambit and valiant way more powerful, and resulted in teambuilding becoming harder cuz all of a sudden you needed 2+ solid checks to gambit and 1 or 2 solid checks to valiant on all of your teams (I don't necessarily believe banning volc made teambuidling harder, I'm just using this as an example to make a point).
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yeah, only problem is that virtually every word of it outside of the first paragraph was hilariously, earth-shatteringly, apocalyptically wrong
all right, let's try it then. i propose we hold a couple roomtours with darkrai allowed so everyone can see how bullshit broken it still is
this meta isn't based around that. it isn't even based at all. things as they stand are a total clusterfuck and we really don't need to compound onto that by dropping ubers
Got my post sniped so quoting Srn after the fact instead of editing it in my previous one.
So what's wrong with having more options here for teambuilding flexibility? Wouldn't that be beneficial? Especially because Darkrai is a special attacker with a couple utility moves Weavile lacks, such as Wisp and T-Wave.
so it can run more than just the nasty plot set that sweeps the entirety of the tier when given a single free turn? you mean to say that, on top of all that, it's versatile enough to be hard to predict? well that makes it perfectly balanced then, drop it down!
Was literally thinking this exact thing.
Except the supposed lynchpin of its brokenness is its ability to sweep with a crappy set. I don't think a 3 Attacks set with a utility move is gonna break anything.
it's not a crappy set if it works, and by golly does it work
hard countered by koridon
Darkrai puts much more strain on the teambuilder than it eases. At least something like kingambit, while being broken and being a huge teambuilding strain, can provide solid dragon/ghost/grass/etc resists and make teambuilding a bit more flexible. I see darkrai contributing in no such fashion.
More pokemon =/= teambuilding more flexible. Whatever is available to you, you must also be ready for.
I think it's also weird u bring up its utility options like wisp. Did you ever see chi-yu use wisp? Ofc not it was too busy being broken lol.
There will be no reason to use tame 3 attacks wisp boots sets when the stupid ones like the one I listed exist. Nobody used 3 attacks boots wisp chi-yu either. People will spam the best and most broken sets, and that is what we have to account for when trying to predict what effect a mon will have on the metagame.
The introduction or more defensive staples like Clef, Gliscor, and buffed ones like Torn and Mola being able to check it. Not to mention old staples like Glowking and Zapdos being able to continue checking it. Valiant was very close to suspect worthy but the changes in Teal Mask make is reasonable.
you make good points but i have to disagree with your conclusion. i think that iron valiant has just been temporarily overshadowed by the shiny new toys dlc has brought and it's going to prove itself problematic again later
why tf are y'all discussing an entirely theoretical darkrai drop in the first place. aren't there new mons to be testing out and a new meta to let develop for longer than a week before y'all start thinking about retesting stuff?
anyhow I'm curious what y'all think HO and offense as a whole is gonna look like with Bax gone. Does Veil HO stay as prominent with stuff like some Ogerpons or whatnot taking its place, or is Ninetales heading back to being more of a niche pick?
anyhow I'm curious what y'all think HO and offense as a whole is gonna look like with Bax gone. Does Veil HO stay as prominent with stuff like some Ogerpons or whatnot taking its place, or is Ninetales heading back to being more of a niche pick?
I think Baxcalibur ban will lead to more options being viable now. Garchomp and Kommo-o both are going to face big competition with Tusk, but I feel more variants of their sweeping sets will be able to shine more now that their biggest offensive competition is gone. Kommo-O was running Clangerous Soul sets iirc with Tera Normal Boomburst, but I think it can perhaps expand its repertoire to include SD Scale Shot sets too, which imo seemed outclassed by Bax due to the massive difference in Power. Garchomp was good even in Bax meta imo, but Bax could be annoying to it due to its ability to Ice Shard Chomp. Now, Chomp has one less revenge killer to deal with, which is good for Scale Shot sets since they can be weak to priority. Rough Skin will also be more valuable, as most attackers will be making contact in this meta.
Ironically, I think Kingambit benefits from Bax ban too. Several teams pre-DLC used Kingambit as their Bax check, but that had a high probability of going South very fast, esp if Bax clicked a +2 Icicle Crash on Gambit as it Tera'd. Now Kingambit can focus fully on being a dangerous sweeping threat instead of being a sub optimal Baxcalibur check.
Ironically, I think Kingambit benefits from Bax ban too. Several teams pre-DLC used Kingambit as their Bax check, but that had a high probability of going South very fast, esp if Bax clicked a +2 Icicle Crash on Gambit as it Tera'd. Now Kingambit can focus fully on being a dangerous sweeping threat instead of being a sub optimal Baxcalibur check.
no one asked me but imo
imo valiant is actually very important to the balance of the tier (if we agree with the status quo) because booster energy + encore is one of the only consistent checks to so many offensive sweepers, even as a one time answer that can win games
like if encore booster valiant didnt exist baxcalibur wouldnt have made it for so long lmao
and I say encore rather than simply revenge killing because the reason encore is so much more of a big deal this gen is like 70% tera, 30% distribution
if you throw valiant into gen 8 it doesnt spam encore because you are able to switch around pokemon and the sd scale shot chomp cannot turn into a steel type on your moonblast, in gen 9 it can making encore the most consistent move to check things in the game
valiant also has terrible spdef and has to pick its checks in a way that imo teams can somewhat reliably check (almost) all of them
I still don't like Valiant with Tera but it is pretty low on my list of issues with the tier
Because it's on the survey, meaning it's a distinct possibility that the council doesn't consider to be too insane (why they didnt put skymin on there, or ridiculous things like giraA or arc bug)
Well, for what it's worth, it was explicitly brought up in the tiering survey. If it's being discussed in an official tiering survey, I don't think discussing the mon in some capacity is necessarily a bad idea (even if it is possibly an outlandish mon).
Let's please stop talking about Darkrai and instead talk about the premier dark type in the tier right now: 
Mightyena @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Crunch
- Charm
- Taunt
- Snarl / Yawn
Hear me out. This set is so many levels of silly, but with max defense investment, this guy can tank better than expected, thanks to Intimidate and Charm. Taunt prevents you from being set up bait, Crunch is... okay, even uninvested.
I considered running a neutral nature so Snarl hit harder but realised there's no point lol. Either way Snarl can weaken Special switch ins, and Yawn can force switches, too. The only problem is Mightyena doesn't scare much out. Does anyone have any better sets? This guy has always been one of my favourites, and, well, he's not very good.
Mightyena @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Crunch
- Charm
- Taunt
- Snarl / Yawn
Hear me out. This set is so many levels of silly, but with max defense investment, this guy can tank better than expected, thanks to Intimidate and Charm. Taunt prevents you from being set up bait, Crunch is... okay, even uninvested.
I considered running a neutral nature so Snarl hit harder but realised there's no point lol. Either way Snarl can weaken Special switch ins, and Yawn can force switches, too. The only problem is Mightyena doesn't scare much out. Does anyone have any better sets? This guy has always been one of my favourites, and, well, he's not very good.
Hey what are you guys using to reliably beat Ogerpon-Hearthflame on bulky offense teams, without Tera? So far the only mons that seem to work on paper are...
- Resists STABS, not weak to its coverage, and can OHKO with minimally invested Hurricane or a Brave Bird without a -atk nature
- Like Moltres, but outspeeds, can run any nature, and the standard set doesn't rely on an inaccurate move.
However it's a lot less good against the rest of the meta, with poor bulk.
Then there's these guys
- Maybe? All 3 have their flaws (no recovery + vulnerable to coverage) but I think their matchups are favourable?
- Destiny Bond gaming? Or just a CC after chip?
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- Bad sets that can revenge kill?
- Resists STABS, not weak to its coverage, and can OHKO with minimally invested Hurricane or a Brave Bird without a -atk nature - Like Moltres, but outspeeds, can run any nature, and the standard set doesn't rely on an inaccurate move. However it's a lot less good against the rest of the meta, with poor bulk.
Then there's these guys
- Maybe? All 3 have their flaws (no recovery + vulnerable to coverage) but I think their matchups are favourable? - Destiny Bond gaming? Or just a CC after chip? 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO - Bad sets that can revenge kill?
Hey what are you guys using to reliably beat Ogerpon-Hearthflame on bulky offense teams, without Tera? So far the only mons that seem to work on paper are...
However it's a lot less good against the rest of the meta, with poor bulk.
Then there's these guys
Remember that talonflame and Moltres won't help when it hits knock or encore. Also you can slot in rock tomb on a trailblaze set just to muscle past talonflame and Moltres. (Granted you give up knock off but muscling past annoying stuff for it without having to set up is huge.)
Seriously though like I have said many times before, Hearthflame is absolutely bonkers and probably should not be here
Beating ogerpon is like... simple but also the most difficult task in the world.Hey what are you guys using to reliably beat Ogerpon-Hearthflame on bulky offense teams, without Tera? So far the only mons that seem to work on paper are...
However it's a lot less good against the rest of the meta, with poor bulk.
Then there's these guys
w/ Tera Flying or Grass- Power Gem
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Tera Blast (???)
VS
Unpopular idea but a scarf heatran can solo most ogerpon forms. Knock off is kinda a bitch yea sure, but if they spend that turn using knock off they may not have enough in the tank to KO with the next attack. Grasspon or more commonly considered base ogerpon is also really simple. You kinda just win with a flamethrower spam in the 1v1. Keep in mind for the future that heatran will most likely lose to all of them in the 1v1 if they have a +2 attack boost and fighting type move -- or worse, stomping tantrum.
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Also another easy win for heatran. This one is a bit dicey however. If they have a Swords Dance boost, Ivy Cudgel might actually KO. And it's a toss up of tera or no tera. But if you don't switch into a boosted ogerpon cornerstone, all should be fine.
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Heatran essentially forces Firepon into close combat or they just get 2HKOd. And even then, heatran could ev itself for that matchup with or without rocks up on the side of the heatran. This is fairly easy for heatran to overcome provided there lacks a prior +2 attack boost via Swords Dance or they don't attack and call the switch (it still wins if it attacks on the switch -- just hope you live the Superpower after tera).
VS
Waterpon is perhaps the most challenging of the bunch. This is not only the only one that hits it for super effective damage, but it also can't be hit by Heatran super effectively unless they Tera Flying Tera Blast. You SERIOUSLY don't want to take an Ivy Cudgel from this thing, and the special defense boost with tera water not only neutralizes Flying Tera Blast, but it essentially has an Assault Vest for free. I don't think it can win this one.
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Being the only fully evolved pokemon to actually be neutral to the stabs of every single ogerpon form is great!
...
Until you realize it learns Play Rough. And it outspeeds Kommo-o naturally. Yikes. Honestly Kommo-o is pretty solid at stoping them otherwise. Maybe a Clangorous Soul boost can help with this, but Ogerpon sets may run Play Rough to remedy this.
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It seems impossible to just straight up beat every ogerpon form. With 2 pokemon yeah that's solvable, but I doubt 1 singular pokemon can handle her sheer power.
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on a positive note, the prevalence of ogerpon-hipsdontlie is proof that limiting tera to stab only isn't a viable tiering option, so people will hopefully stop suggesting it in future tera discussion threads
Legendary built to abuse a locked tera type with a morphing ability and move is not really going to change many peoples minds, mostly because of how optimized it is. Something like [rolls wheel] Zapdos doesn't get +1 special attack after tera with multiple tera type options to be locked on and a move to match. I don't even like the option that much but pon is too much of an extreme case imo
defensive landorus-t works, kinda, 2hko's ogerpon-hearthflame before tera (and ohkos after tera), but it still takes a lot from power whip, and ivy cudgel after tera is a straight 2hko on lando so its a very soft checkHey what are you guys using to reliably beat Ogerpon-Hearthflame on bulky offense teams, without Tera? So far the only mons that seem to work on paper are...
However it's a lot less good against the rest of the meta, with poor bulk.
Then there's these guys
For offensive checks i've actually been using maushold, as long as the ogerpon is at +0 speed it either gets the kill or it forces ogerpon to switch out. It's nice because it fits the role of an ogerpon check and hazard removal at the same time.
VS
Heatran essentially forces Firepon into close combat or they just get 2HKOd. And even then, heatran could ev itself for that matchup with or without rocks up on the side of the heatran. This is fairly easy for heatran to overcome provided there lacks a prior +2 attack boost via Swords Dance or they don't attack and call the switch (it still wins if it attacks on the switch -- just hope you live the Close Combat after tera).
Quick note on the Ogerpon-Hearthflame and Heatran interaction, it actually ignores Heatran's Flash Fire due to Mold Breaker, allowing it to freely spam Ivy Cudgel.
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