Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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I tend to agree. Waterpon imo is broken and quickbannable at this point at the very least. And its gonna take probably from this point until dlc2 drops until we get through even half the mons floatstonemafia mentioned, much less tera/hazards/screens. Bloodmoon was kind of a waste of a suspect. I wasnt sure prior to the suspect and confirmed my suspicions of it being broken during the suspect test, but I really would not have revolted or been shocked at it getting the qb. Feel like we should mainly be suspecting the REAL controverisal mons rather than all the new "not-hard-to-argue-its-broken" mons.

The thing with all of this is just because we qb something doesnt mean we cant retest it later.
 
Floatstonemafia said:
I'm gonna hop up on my soapbox for a second.

This generation has been mismanaged, and it's resulted in as thoroughly unbalanced and 'broken checks broken' meta. I don't blame tier leaders at all, they're doing exactly what's worked historically. They're not doing anything wrong. But that's the problem. Smogon's tiering systems were designed to handle power creep, not power-Usain-Bolt. And there wasn't enough adaption to that fact this generation. They're trying to handle a massive influx of huge problems with the old ways that don't work. There was some adaption, they are definitely freer with the banhammer than they've been in past generations, but that thing should be swinging like a judge trying to restore order.

Usraluna_B never should have been suspect tested. It should have been quick banned. Gliscor too. which is undoubtedly going to be the next suspect test, which is going to eat up another month. It's taking too long to progress through appetizers that should have been quickbanned and re-suspected later. We're almost a year into the generation, and we still haven't moved onto the main entree of Tera/Hazards/Screens yet because we're getting bogged down in stuff that should have be banned months ago. Instead we're progressing one at a time through broken mons praying that enough of the community doesn't fall for the 'broken checks broken' nature of the current format and leaves things legal that blatantly should not be legal.

We still have a massive backlog of mons with no clear counterplay besides 'use this other busted ass mon that also probably should be banned', and the fact that mons like Kingambit are being left in the tier genuinely on the back of 'well we need it to check 2 other things' should be a huge red flag. There are still like 4 mons outstanding that could easily eat quick bans and be retested later, and instead we're going to slowly plow through them one at a time and avoid the main entrees until the next DLC drops and we repeat the cycle all over again.

I feel like the smogon systems need a massive update. There needs to be far more aggressive action taken by the council, and 'quick ban into re-test' should at this point be the norm. I feel like the systems were never designed to handle DLC soft format resets, and it's causing major issues. There's a major aversion to using quick bans to address anything that isn't bannable beyond reasonable doubt, and that needs to change I think. Volcarona's ban was a great demonstration of this - it had huge backlash but it ultimately ended up being a great thing for the format. I think the council learned the wrong lesson from this ban. The lesson they learned was 'test anything even remotely controversial to avoid the community breaking out the torches and pitchforks' when the lesson they should have taken from it was 'we can aggressively create a better format without actually alienating our playerbase'. Because while a lot of people got mad about the Volcarona ban, it settled down after a couple of days, and I think most people now realize it was the correct call.

Suspect test should be used for stuff that barely scrapes over the finish line. If a mon is banned with say 85%+ of votes (arbitrary number ho), then it never should have been suspect tested in the first place. Suspect tests need to be reserved for mons that are 'we're not totally sure this is broken, what do you guys think' not 'we confident this is broken, but we'd like community backing before we act'. I understand why the council likes using suspect tests as reinforcement of their decision (because no one likes doing things then having to extinguish fires for the next 3 days) but at the end of the day, too much stuff is coming too fast for suspect tests to be used as they are now.

At least from my POV, this is where we stand right now

Quickbannable - Manaphy, Gliscor, Ogeron-Wellspring

Could be quick banned and you might get some heat for it but would generally make the format better - Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo

Actual mons that suspect testing is fair game - Everything above if not quick banned, Garg, Dracapult (if enough stuff above it catch the ban bus. read - Kingambit), Ursaluna, etc.

System mechanics - Tera, Hazards, Screens.

Not to mention things that probably could be retested or need action if other things leave the tier.

That's 12 separate things that some kind of action needs to be considered on right now. Are we really gonna try to grind through all of them?
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This is a ridiculous post, I disagree with just about everything you say in it.

"It's not the tier leaders' fault but they're doing everything wrong" makes literally no sense

Gliscor SHOULD be the next suspect, and definitely does not warrant a quickban. It's a ridiculous utility Mon that dramatically warps the tier, but not enough to the point where it's clear cut enough for a quickban. The casuals don't even know that Gliscor is as good as it is, and Gliscor being overbearing vs simply defining the new OU is not so clear cut.

Manaphy doesn't need tiering action at all, literally nothing is broken about it, mid stats and movepool, no speed boosting, no recovery, setup reliant, hell half the tier outclasses it most notably Wake. No functional difference between SD users and Tail Glow. It's only rain where it's even on par with the rest of the tier, notice all of its 600 BST sisters don't exist in OU. Stored Power sets literally are YouTube gimmicks, the stars need to align for them to do what they're intended to. Quickbanning Midaphy is a joke.

Ogerpon-W is also not a quickban worthy offense, what does it even do wrong? It's just a good breaker & setup sweeper. Nothing exceptional about it. in general when Game Freak adds new good mons that fit well into OU people knee jerk "this is overcentralizing" because a month ago it saw zero use. If Ogerpon is an issue later maybe it's worth a suspect but I don't see any issue at this time. Quickban would laughable

Iron Valiant quickban is also a hilarious proposal, literally what did they even do lmao. The fastest Hypnosis and Destiny Bond in the tier is a little questionable but being a useful versatile Mon is not banworthy

Gholdengo deserves a suspect if hazards are an issue post Gliscor but it's not nearly clear cut enough for a quickban. This is a Pokémon with an indirect but very major role in the metagame and dramatically changing everything about OU and how it's played because of the way Gholdengo interacts with a couple Pokémon requires a little bit more thought than "throw it out"

Garg suspect is a joke, that Mon is extremely easy to outplay, and suggesting a suspect for Ursaluna-base, who is so shit it's not even OU, makes zero sense

Screens are a complete non-issue without Bax

Hazards themselves aren't the problem, imo it's 3 very specific Spikes users that should be examined for zero-effort stacking. "Hazards" as a whole aren't an issue, for instance Toxic Spikes are quite bad and not remotely overbearing.

I will give you Kingambit, but the entire tier does not revolve around "broken checks broken." Pokemon simply check each other and you think they are all broken. if I were you I would consider whether OU is the right tier for you to play. It sounds like you'd be more comfortable playing UU or RU. If "the whole tier is broken" the solution isn't ban everything in it it's play another tier.

Merely the fact that I vehemently disagree with just about everything you've said means these aren't "obvious quickbans" - converse with other players more and try some other tiers, eventually you will find one you are comfortable with.

DynamaxBestMeta said:
So why is it not ok for the playerbase to adapt to the new meta?
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And then on the flip side, you way overstate what adaptations are reasonable, like you were literally anti Bloodmon ban, casual players are way too quick to say "don't ban just adapt" when the adaptations are garbage like running Bronzong in OU in case of Bloodmoon. Good players play dozens of games a day and are very quick to innovate and learn from others. Inflexibility is definitely not what's driving these bans
 
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Floatstonemafia said:
Volcarona's ban was a great demonstration of this - it had huge backlash but it ultimately ended up being a great thing for the format. I think the council learned the wrong lesson from this ban. The lesson they learned was 'test anything even remotely controversial to avoid the community breaking out the torches and pitchforks' when the lesson they should have taken from it was 'we can aggressively create a better format without actually alienating our playerbase'. Because while a lot of people got mad about the Volcarona ban, it settled down after a couple of days, and I think most people now realize it was the correct call.

Suspect test should be used for stuff that barely scrapes over the finish line. If a mon is banned with say 85%+ of votes (arbitrary number ho), then it never should have been suspect tested in the first place. Suspect tests need to be reserved for mons that are 'we're not totally sure this is broken, what do you guys think' not 'we confident this is broken, but we'd like community backing before we act'. I understand why the council likes using suspect tests as reinforcement of their decision (because no one likes doing things then having to extinguish fires for the next 3 days) but at the end of the day, too much stuff is coming too fast for suspect tests to be used as they are now.
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I strongly agree with both of these points, but I'd like to add that surveys are a key part to quickly gauge player opinion efficiently. Judging whether a suspect is appropriate should come from the survey results more so than the suspect result. I agree that having a unanimous ban on a suspect is something that should be avoided, but doesn't condemn the suspect to being pointless, but just requires reflection. As long as the survey at the start of suspect was controversial I'm happy with a suspect. (Which I think, in Ursaluna's case, is true)

I would say I'd prefer surveys to be edited. Scales are subject interpretation and aren't great at getting concrete data. I think a "yes" "no" "unsure" would be much easier to interpret and help inform tiering more directly.

I will also add I think the phrase "quickban-worthy" is stupid when justified by attributes of the Pokemon (Ogerpon-W is not "quickban-worthy" because its easily counterable). A Pokemon is either "ban-worthy" or not. Whether its deserves a quickban or a suspect should be about consensus only. (Ogerpon-W is not "quickban-worthy" because most people don't agree on its brokenness).
 
Moyashi said:
Dude. It's okay to think Manaphy is not broken, but calling its stats "mid stats" and stubbornly sitting on this claim multiple times is super goofy. Manaphy is very solid in this meta and it feels more like you have a weird hateboner for this mon.
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I would more argue it's just brainworms that make people see 100 as some kind of lowly base stat rather than very securely above-average.
 
Leman123 said:
As long as the survey at the start of suspect was controversial I'm happy with a suspect. (Which I think, in Ursaluna's case, is true)

I would say I'd prefer surveys to be edited. Scales are subject interpretation and aren't great at getting concrete data. I think a "yes" "no" "unsure" would be much easier to interpret and help inform tiering more directly.
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I agree with this but also I don't think the results from the survey before BM-Ursa were ever posted by Finchinator. They at least never got posted in the Survey thread and if they were posted here I have no idea where. Ultimately I think Surveys need to happen faster and be utilized more to speed up tiering. If the mon gets a lot of support for ban then QB it and if it's got support but it's mixed suspect it.
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
I would more argue it's just brainworms that make people see 100 as some kind of lowly base stat rather than very securely above-average.
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It's becoming less and less above-average as things become more minmaxed, but Manaphy has other traits that let it stand out (Water type, good coverage with or w/o tera, the ability to make most fat teams bend to its will very easily)
 
artificialdeath said:
It's becoming less and less above-average as things become more minmaxed, but Manaphy has other traits that let it stand out (Water type, good coverage with or w/o tera, the ability to make most fat teams bend to its will very easily)
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Eh, call it stubbornness, but I would still argue 80 is the solid "average", not counting Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts/Paradoxes, who're intentionally overpowered and thus have comical stat spreads. (And Palafin, who is just dumb in general)
 
Chiming in to say 1. Yeah, good riddance to BM (Blood Moon).
2. I think that the next survey should allow the playerbase to volunteer responses on what mon(s) the council should vote to QB!
We've just proved with the overwhelming BM ban that the community CAN reach a consensus on prospectively broken pokemon.
This is all still completely up to the council to decide on possible implementation, but I think that there should be a write-in next survey, and if idk if the same mon gets 90% of the same votes from all survey responses (completely improbable, but so was BM getting 93% tbh), it's QB'ed by "Community Vote". And then if a pokemon gets like.. 60% requested test rate, the council themselves can vote on QB amongst the group of them?

I'm spitballing, and celebrating the good news with a kind of off-the-wall idea!
Anyways, in case no one wants to think about my above malarkey, who benefits most from this ban? Who drops back down to UU or below? What other pros/cons do we see to this change(besides never needing to see this abomination again)?
 
I believe the next priority should be suspecting or quickbanning Ogerpon-Wellspring. It beats pretty much everything slower, including Amoonguss since +2 Ivy Cudgel 2HKOes Amoonguss while Amoonguss can't OHKO back. Ogerpon-Wellspring pretty much forces slower walls to Tera Grass much like Ogerpon-Hearthflame forced many mons to blow a defensive Tera. Ogerpon-Wellspring can also beat all of those passive walls with Encore, making it hella oppressive.

Pokemon that force all slower Pokemon to pop a defensive Tera while not needing to Terastalize themselves are unhealthy as is the case with Baxcalibur and Ogerpon-Hearthflame, and thus, I conclude that Ogerpon-Wellspring should be banned even if it is Manaphy's best check and the main thing holding it back.
 
Avira said:
I believe the next priority should be suspecting or quickbanning Ogerpon-Wellspring. It beats pretty much everything slower, including Amoonguss since +2 Ivy Cudgel 2HKOes Amoonguss while Amoonguss can't OHKO back. Ogerpon-Wellspring pretty much forces slower walls to Tera Grass much like Ogerpon-Hearthflame forced many mons to blow a defensive Tera. Pokemon that force all slower Pokemon to pop a defensive Tera while not needing to Terastalize themselves are unhealthy as is the case with Baxcalibur and Ogerpon-Hearthflame, and thus, Ogerpon-Wellspring should be banned even if it is Manaphy's best check.
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Really? Because I played on the ladder some, and I found that Amooguss pretty consistently was able to take out Wellspring with Sludge Bomb...
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
I would more argue it's just brainworms that make people see 100 as some kind of lowly base stat rather than very securely above-average.
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Yes, clearly I'm insane for saying that 100 is not a particularly notable base stat in OU.
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MisogiKurakawa said:
Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts/Paradoxes, who're intentionally overpowered and thus have comical stat spreads. (And Palafin, who is just dumb in general)
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These make up a lot of the relevant meta now though. Even outside of that, look at Gambit, Ursaluna, Garganacl (who is still good and will come back to OU), Clodsire, Dozo, etc. The things that aren't minmaxed to high hell (Clef, Alolatales, Alo, Amoon) are here because they compensate for their stats with how ridiculously good their other traits are.
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
Eh, call it stubbornness, but I would still argue 80 is the solid "average", not counting Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts/Paradoxes, who're intentionally overpowered and thus have comical stat spreads. (And Palafin, who is just dumb in general)
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Trying to constantly yell that all those are overpowered when the majority of Paradox Pokemon for example aren't even OU and a good chunk are even under UU is super funny and makes you sound like the people with no experience in competitive Pokemon yelling under competitive Pokemon videos lol
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
Eh, call it stubbornness, but I would still argue 80 is the solid "average", not counting Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts/Paradoxes, who're intentionally overpowered and thus have comical stat spreads. (And Palafin, who is just dumb in general)
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80 is the average. All of Glalie's stats are 80. Therefore Glalie is about average in OU?

Shinto7654 said:
Trying to constantly yell that all those are overpowered when the majority of Paradox Pokemon for example aren't even OU and a good chunk are even under UU is super funny and makes you sound like the people with no experience in competitive Pokemon yelling under competitive Pokemon videos lol
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Literal Temp6t viewer behavior
 
Floatstonemafia said:
Gliscor too. which is undoubtedly going to be the next suspect test, which is going to eat up another month.
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my guy, gal, and/or nonbinary pal, the bloodmoon suspect lasted 10 days. they've shortened the length of suspects to compensate for the shorter time of the meta. i agree that bloodmoon could have been a qb, but gliscor is a different case and i think a suspect is the right way to go about it
 
Shinto7654 said:
Trying to constantly yell that all those are overpowered when the majority of Paradox Pokemon for example aren't even OU and a good chunk are even under UU is super funny and makes you sound like the people with no experience in competitive Pokemon yelling under competitive Pokemon videos lol
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ianlazerbeem said:
80 is the average. All of Glalie's stats are 80. Therefore Glalie is about average in OU?
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You're aware this doesn't contradict my point, right? Just because many Legendaries are underpowered in practice doesn't mean the intention wasn't to make them purposely overtuned (and, for the earlier ones, they're the victims of a changing design philosophy). If anything, the larger problem is that there are too many of these "super" Pokemon in the game at this point to be easily balanced around - Gen IX will have introduced about 30 after DLC2 comes out.
 
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