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You know, I've thought about it for a while and I believe the reason why this generation has so many bans or 'overpowered' pokemon is a combination of power creep and anti-power creep. Sure, we have stuff like chi yu and flutter mane which are insanely powerful, but the returning pokemon have also been severly nerfed. Just look at lando-t, it would absolutely be a lot better if it retained the tools it had before in gen 8 and most likely not have almost fallen to uu. The new pokemon haven't been overwhelmingly better than additions in previous gens, remember in gen 8 when we got spectrier and dracovish? If you think palafin had absurd power, just calc dracovish fishious rend. (Tbh, I know that the bulk up taunt set was what truly broke palafin, but this is more to be a power comparison.) Something like urshifu rapid strike could have been balanced if other pokemon had their full movesets (I'm basing this off N-Dex, which while it isn't the best measurement on brokeness, should be used as a tertiary arguement, which is why I considered adding roaring moon to the list, but decided against it because it is banned in N-Dex.) I'm not saying we should unban these mons that were banned in Gen 9, at least until we properly assess if they would be too much for the tier, but it shows how something that was definetely broken, is not in another metagame.
Overall, if game freak hadn't fucked multiple pokemon to the moon and back several times (blissey would like to speak with management about their toxic behaviour), the metagame could have been a lot more balanced.
I agree with most of this post but disagree with the point about about new things being stronger. Namely Palafin vs Dracovish which isn’t a good comparison. Dracovish is closer to Last Respects Houndstone, which is more busted than Fishious Rend for sure. Palafin imo is more comparable to Urshifu-R and the hypothetic Illuminate Regigigas. Additionally Flutter Mane is a near straight upgrade from Spectrier.
I’d also like to say that NatDex has more than just expanded movepools as well. You have Z-moves, Megas, and more Pokemon.
Otherwise I agree. Especially for defensive Pokemon. GameFreak gave offense a shiny new car for their 18th birthday, while defense got an eviction notice for their’s.
I probably shouldnt share this, but im having impressive succes while running double Kingambit in ladder. (Gambit + Bisharp)
I recommend other shenanigans to experiment around this. Bisharp can complement gambit and check out for gambits checks/kill them earlier while running a variation of Gambit own set and been VERY bulky thanks to eviolite.
That said, from this sample of gameplay we've seen against OU mons, I don't believe Darkrai is obviously, egregiously broken. It's certainly not a Chi-Yu where it just clicks one move and overwhelms resists, because its STAB is Dark Pulse. It has a mediocre matchup against metagame staples like Great Tusk, Zamazenta, and Ting-Lu, and hates taking U-Turns from things like Dragapult. Relying on Focus Blast to hit a lot of Dark-types also really, really stinks. I also want to note that not a single person used Hypnosis, probably because you don't want to miss Hypnosis in a Bo1 team tournament — if it broke into ladder it might be more relevant, but it's honestly a niche move in general.
Why is it a best of one tournament? Wouldn't that encourage gimmicky teams that dont reward skill so much as rewarding being counter-meta? A best of 3 would mean that the better skilled player, regardless of the zaniness of their team, would win, right?
I probably shouldnt share this, but im having impressive succes while running double Kingambit in ladder. (Gambit + Bisharp)
I recommend other shenanigans to experiment around this. Bisharp can complement gambit and check out for gambits checks/kill them earlier while running a variation of Gambit own set and been VERY bulky thanks to eviolite.
that's… actually kind of brilliant. since their checks/counters are nearly identical, bisharp can lure out gambit checks early and chip them down to the point where they're no longer checks, and reveal potential anti-gambit lures on the opposing team. plus, it gives gambit more flexibility because you can run whatever coverage it isn't using on bisharp. and finally, since one of gambit's biggest weaknesses is being forced to come out early, you can just use bisharp for that instead
that's… actually kind of brilliant. since their checks/counters are nearly identical, bisharp can lure out gambit checks early and chip them down to the point where they're no longer checks, and reveal potential anti-gambit lures on the opposing team. plus, it gives gambit more flexibility because you can run whatever coverage it isn't using on bisharp. and finally, since one of gambit's biggest weaknesses is being forced to come out early, you can just use bisharp for that instead
Aren't there better mons you could use to build such a 'dark spam' core though? Things like Kadabra + Zam in BW, which are kinda niche to begin with, work because they're almost the same mon. Bisharp has the same movepool as gambit but fails to punch holes in enemy teams, let alone clean, the way Gambit can. Maybe it does work and I'm being too skeptical, but I don't see how this is better than pairing Gambit with another Dark-type and/or wallbreaker that also complements it but is much more reliable.
it would be one of fastest pokemon in the tier with access to nasty plot with already 135 satk
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 336-396 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 504-594 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
i know i wasted tera but i don't think there are many special attackers able to get an okho on full sdef ting lu, also
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 355-418 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 314-370 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
oger water already can demolish slower teams and darkrai would be almost the same with more speed and almost same bulk
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 102-120 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 74-88 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 96-113 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 79-93 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
i really don't see the sense of bring another pokemon with this power to OU, specially with this speed and force people to use amuk if they want a reliable counter
Why is it a best of one tournament? Wouldn't that encourage gimmicky teams that dont reward skill so much as rewarding being counter-meta? A best of 3 would mean that the better skilled player, regardless of the zaniness of their team, would win, right?
1. Preparing for a Bo3 in a team tour for multiple weeks can be very exhausting. Some people might be comfortable reusing other teams, while others may want to build fresh new teams each week. Just using OUPL (7 weeks) as an example, you're playing 7 games, instead of 14 or 21 games, and if you include your teammates, then as a team, you're preparing for at least 20-30 games every week, which will definitely get tiring and cut into motivation at some point.
2. The Bo3/5/X gets utilized through your team having multiple games. It's a team tour, so you want the better team to win in a given week, which means at least 6 or 7 teammates winning. Regardless of gimmicks, how both players perform in that game still matters a lot, and it's very possible to be remain consistent even when facing more creative strategies. If some gimmicks are a bit too successful or seen as uncompetitive, then the council can take a look and decide if action should happen or not.
That being said, you'll see the occasional counter-pick sets that are meant for specific players, like bringing Scarf Weavile/Dragapult into someone that loves hyper offense, but they do come with drawbacks (being weaker than the normal Weavile/Dragapult sets), while also risking a chance at not facing the matchup they wanted to face. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but how how both players perform will always make a significant difference.
Why is it a best of one tournament? Wouldn't that encourage gimmicky teams that dont reward skill so much as rewarding being counter-meta? A best of 3 would mean that the better skilled player, regardless of the zaniness of their team, would win, right?
I realized TPP had already posted a great explanation mid-typing this, but here's some additional thoughts on this.
There are a number of BO3 and BO5 tours elsewhere in the Smogon tournament ecosystem! In this case, BO1 rewards researching both the meta and your opponent's tendencies, and preparing accordingly. This is also a team tournament where a total of 10 people are playing for each team, and whichever team wins more games wins the week, so one lucky/excessively weird game has a reduced impact. (BO3 is also weird for team tournaments because
An example of a BO3 tour is the Official Smogon Tournament (OST), a single-elimination BO3 bracket. This tour also encourages strong research and preparation, but the nature of the tour makes it reward very consistent players who can perform week after week.
it would be one of fastest pokemon in the tier with access to nasty plot with already 135 satk
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 336-396 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 504-594 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
i know i wasted tera but i don't think there are many special attackers able to get an okho on full sdef ting lu, also
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 355-418 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 314-370 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
oger water already can demolish slower teams and darkrai would be almost the same with more speed and almost same bulk
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 102-120 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 74-88 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 96-113 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 79-93 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
i really don't see the sense of bring another pokemon with this power to OU, specially with this speed and force people to use amuk if they want a reliable counter
I think there are concerns about how Darkrai would affect slower teams but I'm unsure that these are the best examples in particular. It can rip through things like Heatran, Clefable, Moltres, etc. at +2, no doubt. But the Ting-Lu calcs rely on you getting +2 and hitting 2 Focus Blasts, which is at least three turns. This doesn't even consider the fact that hitting 2 FBs is a 49% chance, so it's actually lucky for you, not the opponent! Within this time, a reasonable Ting-Lu will either EQ you multiple times or just Whirlwind you out to reset your progress. And Ting-Lu is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, so it's not like you're bringing an unviable shitter just to deal with Darkrai. Same thing with something like Booster Valiant or Zamazenta.
Also, when comparing to Wellspring in terms of bulk and impact on slow teams, do remember that Wellspring has either Water Absorb or a constant +1 SpDef, as well as access to some amount of sustain in Horn Leech.
it would be one of fastest pokemon in the tier with access to nasty plot with already 135 satk
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 336-396 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 504-594 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
i know i wasted tera but i don't think there are many special attackers able to get an okho on full sdef ting lu, also
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 355-418 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 314-370 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
oger water already can demolish slower teams and darkrai would be almost the same with more speed and almost same bulk
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 102-120 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 74-88 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 96-113 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 79-93 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
i really don't see the sense of bring another pokemon with this power to OU, specially with this speed and force people to use amuk if they want a reliable counter
i almost want to support a darkrai unban now on principle but i just can't bring myself to do it. darkrai's just too damn strong for this tier. darkrai apologists are going to cite the oupl results until the end of time now, but they're distorted by small sample size, the unwillingness of people to bring hypnosis, the short-term nature of the format not allowing for set experimentation or counter-counterplay to develop, and everyone specifically building their teams around darkrai. it should also be noted that if suspect ladders and test bans aren't allowed because the results can be "misleading", the oupl results shouldn't factor into tiering decisions either because they have all the same problems but even more so. i do think it should be on the survey that should be done before anything drops, though (please tell me that's still the plan and they're not doing the clown-tundra nonsense again)
Aren't there better mons you could use to build such a 'dark spam' core though? Things like Kadabra + Zam in BW, which are kinda niche to begin with, work because they're almost the same mon. Bisharp has the same movepool as gambit but fails to punch holes in enemy teams, let alone clean, the way Gambit can. Maybe it does work and I'm being too skeptical, but I don't see how this is better than pairing Gambit with another Dark-type and/or wallbreaker that also complements it but is much more reliable.
Bisharp is a damn decent pokemon already - I believe it was OU last gen, no? I think no other dark-type shares the same M.O. so it is kind of a perfect fit to do this whole scouting/softening counters/powering through thing. Idk if it's the best fit in a team overall but it at the very least sounds very interesting and unique. I mean, it isn't supposed to clean up. It's supposed to prepare for the clean up. Fun stuff.
i almost want to support a darkrai unban now on principle but i just can't bring myself to do it. darkrai's just too damn strong for this tier. darkrai apologists are going to cite the oupl results until the end of time now, but they're distorted by small sample size, the unwillingness of people to bring hypnosis, the short-term nature of the format not allowing for set experimentation or counter-counterplay to develop, and everyone specifically building their teams around darkrai. it should also be noted that if suspect ladders and test bans aren't allowed because the results can be "misleading", the oupl results shouldn't factor into tiering decisions either because they have all the same problems but even more so. i do think it should be on the survey that should be done before anything drops, though (please tell me that's still the plan and they're not doing the clown-tundra nonsense again)
Listen, I'm fine with being wrong. I just think we should be allowed to do a test run at the very least due to the length of time since the ban and the changing landscape of the game, with DLC2 probably being the best time to do it. If it's still too much then we can just banish Darkrai again -- no skin off our backs.
Also I just want to use my favorite Pokémon for a bit in a modern meta where it's good.
Bisharp is a damn decent pokemon already - I believe it was OU last gen, no? I think no other dark-type shares the same M.O. so it is kind of a perfect fit to do this whole scouting/softening counters/powering through thing. Idk if it's the best fit in a team overall but it at the very least sounds very interesting and unique. I mean, it isn't supposed to clean up. It's supposed to prepare for the clean up. Fun stuff.
It was somewhat of a subpar mon last gen, at least compared to its peak in Gen 6. Kind of had a reputation as something that the ladder didn't let drop. Has all of Gambit's downsides but without the ridiculous strength that makes Gambit Gambit, and it's kind of a waste to use your Tera on it unlike Gambit. Maybe this is a stretch to say but Ghold also makes its Defiant shenanigans obsolete, as it can get free turns from Defoggers and use them to set up NP/force the enemy to take a strong choiced attack. Sounds like a cool idea, and maybe it can be made to work, but I would rather just pair Gambit with one of OU's many consistent wallbreakers/SD sweepers if I wanted to get rid of its few checks.
Listen, I'm fine with being wrong. I just think we should be allowed to do a test run at the very least due to the length of time since the ban and the changing landscape of the game, with DLC2 probably being the best time to do it. If it's still too much then we can just banish Darkrai again -- no skin off our backs.
Also I just want to use my favorite Pokémon for a bit in a modern meta where it's good.
i can understand the sentiment, but dropping mons en masse without any sort of community input seems like it isn't a great option. there was a survey last time and it was well-received, i can't imagine them dropping stuff without asking
it would be one of fastest pokemon in the tier with access to nasty plot with already 135 satk
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 336-396 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Tera Fighting Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 504-594 (98 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
i know i wasted tera but i don't think there are many special attackers able to get an okho on full sdef ting lu, also
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 355-418 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 314-370 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
oger water already can demolish slower teams and darkrai would be almost the same with more speed and almost same bulk
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 102-120 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 74-88 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 96-113 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 79-93 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
i really don't see the sense of bring another pokemon with this power to OU, specially with this speed and force people to use amuk if they want a reliable counter
I definitely respect this opinion and am nowhere near sure (maybe not even confident) that Darkrai would be ok in OU. My whole thing is given we're getting a whole bunch of new threats certain to be very relevant such as Blazekin, Serperior, and the Tapus, as well as "recalibrating" by dropping certain threats (how many of course remains to be seen) that throwing Darkrai into the pool and including it in the recalibration makes a lot of sense given the extensive theorymon done about lack of great coverage options or ability to fit them all as well as stats (bar maybe speed) that seem to fit in the tier pretty well, and the small amount of games we've seen seem to be in its favor. OU is going to be completely different in 2 weeks, not only because of the new Pokémon, but how they interact with the old ones. Overall I'd like to see it tried out and if it doesn't work out, alright, a lot of people thought that was going to be the case.
i almost want to support a darkrai unban now on principle but i just can't bring myself to do it. darkrai's just too damn strong for this tier. darkrai apologists are going to cite the oupl results until the end of time now, but they're distorted by small sample size, the unwillingness of people to bring hypnosis, the short-term nature of the format not allowing for set experimentation or counter-counterplay to develop, and everyone specifically building their teams around darkrai. it should also be noted that if suspect ladders and test bans aren't allowed because the results can be "misleading", the oupl results shouldn't factor into tiering decisions either because they have all the same problems but even more so. i do think it should be on the survey that should be done before anything drops, though (please tell me that's still the plan and they're not doing the clown-tundra nonsense again)
I am confident Hypnosis will be ass on ladder. The man who INVENTED hypnosis Valiant said why better then I can, but in short it's comedically unreliable. I also take a bit of an issue with "format not allowing for set experimentation or counterplay to develop," tournament preppers work very hard to explore every avenue and some of the best innovation has been first seen in tournament play. But I definitely see the rest of your concerns - the samples we've seen are not amazing indicators for the reasons you've stated, though they are a data point we shouldn't totally disregard. With the way Finch has spoken during office hours it sounds like if Darkrai becomes a problem it will be dealt with quickly by the council, and I think the problem is likely to be apparent if there is one.
I agree with a lot of your reasoning on why OUPL Suspect replays are perfect data on how a Pokémon fits into the tier. But I don't think it's so one sided as "it shouldn't be regarded just like a suspect ladder shouldn't be" - a key difference a suspect round in a tournament vs a public suspect ladder is the skill floor. Little Timmy age 8 is on the ladder, he's not playing SPL. Some of the best players and their community of several great builders each are not just "giving us a taste of how the meta would be" so much as a showcase of the highest extent of how to powerfully apply darkrai, and what are the absolute most comprehensive and reliable ways to respond it. Surely this data is more informative than a random sample of ladder games against whoever, especially since the suspect reqs tend to be hit just before you reach the type of gameplay seen in tournaments and the players who enter them.
I'm not really sure what a survey on drops in the new OU would accomplish, for the reasons you're describing regarding Darkrai; what use is asking the playerbase their opinions on what should be dropped into a metagame that they've never played and don't even know what Pokémon are apart of?
I also take a bit of an issue with "format not allowing for set experimentation or counterplay to develop," tournament preppers work very hard to explore every avenue and some of the best innovation has been first seen in tournament play.
oh, that's not what i meant at all. i was talking about the short-term nature of the "ou + darkrai" format specifically, not tournaments in general. there's not really much room for innovation, experimentation, or meta evolution if the entire meta is eight battles long
I'm not really sure what a survey on drops in the new OU would accomplish, for the reasons you're describing regarding Darkrai; what use is asking the playerbase their opinions on what should be dropped into a metagame that they've never played and don't even know what Pokémon are apart of?
it would prevent drops of extremely obvious broken stuff, unlike the crown tundra method of "drop everything lol". sure, the most broken stuff could be reversed quickly, but dropping stuff like lando-i, genesect, naganadel, pheromosa, and kyub was not a good look for the council, and most of the drops just ended up creating more work for them
darkrai apologists are going to cite the oupl results until the end of time now, but they're distorted by small sample size, the unwillingness of people to bring hypnosis, the short-term nature of the format not allowing for set experimentation or counter-counterplay to develop, and everyone specifically building their teams around darkrai.
Bisharp is a damn decent pokemon already - I believe it was OU last gen, no? I think no other dark-type shares the same M.O. so it is kind of a perfect fit to do this whole scouting/softening counters/powering through thing. Idk if it's the best fit in a team overall but it at the very least sounds very interesting and unique. I mean, it isn't supposed to clean up. It's supposed to prepare for the clean up. Fun stuff.
with a 60% accurate sleep move and being forced to run nasty plot or else doing 0 damage, and having to resort to 2 moves for coverage, dark pulse being 1 of them. either run blast or else get walled by ting lu gambit tusk or run sludge bomb or get walled by iron val enam clefable, some of the most common mons in the metagame
not to mention, 125 speed is fast but slower than stuff that loses to it, also common in the metagame, such as booster mons, zamazenta and pult.
you're the one who has to realise that hypnosis darkrai is terrible, if you want to play a hypnosis mon that is heaps better iron valiant is already there
Imma be very real I'm not loving how the tier is turning out at the moment, and I'm kinda just waiting to see how the DLC shakes things up in less than a couple weeks. I've suffered this long, I might as well idle around until the DLC and decide if I want back in or not. Very excited to see whether or not the 19th Tera type might break Tera entirely, but that's the speculative hope a lot of people who hate Tera want so we can finally just vote it off the island.
Another thing, has anyone else found teambuilding to be less linear this gen? It's both a blessing and a curse all things considered, there's arguably a lot more room for experimentation because of it, but for anyone that was still learning the ropes of Gen8OU this was a massive shakeup that shifted the whole way I look at teams. Usually you're ticking off a few boxes depending on your style of team, and that's usually still true considering how centralizing some mons are cough Gholdeneedstogo and Kingambroke cough; but Tera has opened up a lot despite certain restrictions and obvious unhealthy mons some people choose to ignore. I have never been one to enjoy a tier where the generational gimmick defined roles in OU, nor will I ever be, but maybe there's something here still. Just maybe.
also broken and has been for a while. this is like the worst example you could've given. you could have said, like, jumpluff or something, which even has a more accurate sleep move and is shit despite that
