Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[MilkyWay]

I'm not out here putting two encores mons, a zamazenta, focus blast dengo AND my own gambit just to beat smth like ting now am I?

If you had to slap on tauros-blaze or seismitoad and they essentially covered every gambit set in one slot that would be ridiculously overbearing, but running those four specific measures and praying you don’t run into mental herb Tera fairy gambit is entirely reasonable

Edit: I’m done trying to be sarcastic on this forum

 

[Shinto7654]

Let's put it this way. A lot of OU pokemon that you have to prepare for in the builder are pokemon that are prepared for by using pokemon in OU. Kingambit is different, as you have to go out of your way to put Kingambit checks on your team as opposed to something like garchomp where if you have a bulky core you're probably fine barring crits.

Unironically trying to dig deeper into "I have to prepare for a Pokemon, so it's clearly massively broken". Just sheer, peak low ladder and scrub mindset you love to see it

 

[quacc]

19.201% -> 27.108%

Deadass, IDK what cause such a drastic increase in Pult usage. I'm guessing its ability to act as a form of speed control is in much higher demand in this economy, but I would have assumed Gliscor leaving would have been bad for it since Ting-Lu and friends have much higher usage.

Dragapult is genuinely one of the greatest offensive pivots and breakers in the game; not much can actually handle it well, and for how difficult it is to handle, you would expect it to be handicapped by speed, but it isn't.

I think what happened here is that because one of the few Dragapult semi-answers, Kingambit, saw a lot less usage in this metagame, allowing Dragapult to really be able to pick off teams. Yes, Ting-Lu rose in usage, but Ting-Lu is chippable and does not exert the same amount of "threat" that Kingambit does; once you draco meteor into a Kingambit, you gotta be scared, but if you draco meteor into a Ting-Lu, you just bring in Great Tusk easily, not to mention u-turning around Ting-Lu puts it in an awkward position and is quite easier to do against a slower-paced team like the ones Ting-Lu is found on, but u-turning can feel like it does not get enough value at times against more offensive teams with Kingambit and can often force you to go into your Kingambit check early, if you have one; encore does not hit the same when you don't use it after it clicks swords dance and are staring it down, ready to OHKO you.

I do want to say that there are definitely other Dragapult answers, but answers such as Garganacl are a lot easier to play around because Garganacl is super reliant on leftovers, which is very easy to exploit in a hazard-filled metagame.

The other thing might have been the Sneasler ban, which would be able to challenge Dragapult's superiority of speed control, but I feel like the Sneasler ban was too recent. I don't think the Gliscor ban did much other than make choice specs sets worse with protect scouting, but the hex sets were really good while Gliscor was in the tier.

Dragapult definitely deserves this usage in my opinion.

 

[DoofV3]

Name one OU Pokémon you don't have to prepare for in the builder or that you won't lose to by not preparing to. This applies to the entire top 10 if not 20 at the very least. Whether Kingambit is broken or not (it's so much less reliable than it was 3 months ago) "it's broken because you have to prepare for it" is not good reasoning

I agree that Kingambit isn't as bad as it used to be before but "you have to dedicate multiple slots in your team and pray that this Pokémon doesn't run the specific Tera type that breaks through all your supposed checks for it" isn't healthy either. In my specific case, Tera Fire with Low Kick Gambit breaks through my set up for it, but trying to account for THAT leaves me open to the other Kingambit sets.

And for the record: I never build with Zama/Glimmora/Hammurott/Rockerpon/Clerable/Tinglu/Dondozo etc, in mind. I think the only Pokémon that dedicate genuine team building checks are Pokemon that can and will run away with the game, like Valiant, Manaphy, Waterpon and of course Kingambit. And imo the first three arent as oppressive as the latter.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Let's put it this way. A lot of OU pokemon that you have to prepare for in the builder are pokemon that are prepared for by using pokemon in OU. Kingambit is different, as you have to go out of your way to put Kingambit checks on your team as opposed to something like garchomp where if you have a bulky core you're probably fine barring crits.

Garchomp is barely even OU viable and barely even OU. How is adding two or more of a Great Tusk, a Zamazenta, a Will-o-Wisp user, or something with Encore, Sub, or Iron Defense "going out of your way?" You all can spend all day presenting these as the same as Bronzong or SpDef Corv being run for Bloodmoon but I just don't see it. "But it can Tera" is almost a legitimate point, and Tera is of course worth discussing, but saving your Tera until the end of the game is becoming quite the tall order.

 

[YubelVT]

Garchomp is barely even OU viable and barely even OU. How is adding two or more of a Great Tusk, a Zamazenta, a Will-o-Wisp user, or something with Encore, Sub, or Iron Defense "going out of your way?" You all can spend all day presenting these as the same as Bronzong or SpDef Corv being run for Bloodmoon but I just don't see it. "But it can Tera" is almost a legitimate point, and Tera is of course worth discussing, but saving your Tera until the end of the game is becoming quite the tall order.

because in a format like gen 7 OU (which is good and you all are cowards), you don't have to do 3-4 checks for one fucking pokemon. not even scarf landorus nor magearna requires that much attention because of how high the power level naturally is. The biggest thing you want to go out of your way to check is actually fucking shedinja because shed stall is the best form of stall in SM OU

 

[Ctann]

Garchomp is barely even OU viable and barely even OU. How is adding two or more of a Great Tusk, a Zamazenta, a Will-o-Wisp user, or something with Encore, Sub, or Iron Defense "going out of your way?" You all can spend all day presenting these as the same as Bronzong or SpDef Corv being run for Bloodmoon but I just don't see it. "But it can Tera" is almost a legitimate point, and Tera is of course worth discussing, but saving your Tera until the end of the game is becoming quite the tall order.

mate it’s easier with an example:

if zamazenta is a problem for your team, you can choose one of gholdengo, meltros phys def glow-king, etc. you can viably choose 1 thing and it will make a big impact on your zamazenta weakness

if kingambit is a problem for your team you have to make 2-3,4 maybe 5 adjustments, and it will only mildly suppress [most sets of] kingambit at best, since it’s so effective against OU

 

[quacc]

I agree that Kingambit isn't as bad as it used to be before but "you have to dedicate multiple slots in your team and pray that this Pokémon doesn't run the specific Tera type that breaks through all your supposed checks for it" isn't healthy either. In my specific case, Tera Fire with Low Kick Gambit breaks through my set up for it, but trying to account for THAT leaves me open to the other Kingambit sets.

And for the record: I never build with Zama/Glimmora/Hammurott/Rockerpon/Clerable/Tinglu/Dondozo etc, in mind. I think the only Pokémon that dedicate genuine team building checks are Pokemon that can and will run away with the game, like Valiant, Manaphy, Waterpon and of course Kingambit. And imo the first three arent as oppressive as the latter.

because in a format like gen 7 OU (which is good and you all are cowards), you don't have to do 3-4 checks for one fucking pokemon. not even scarf landorus nor magearna requires that much attention because of how high the power level naturally is. The biggest thing you want to go out of your way to check is actually fucking shedinja because shed stall is the best form of stall in SM OU

I'm not sure about the "dedicating multiple team slots" part.

As someone who previously argued for a Kingambit ban with this reason, but then argued for a Kingambit ban for a different reason (uncompetitiveness, but honestly now I think that Kingambit can wait; we have other things to worry about first), the "various Kingambit checks" are often incredibly general checks, which should be factored into the argument to a great extent.

Sure, running will-o-wisp Cinderace just for Kingambit, and then having to run something for the lum berry/tera fire Kingambits is not healthy, but you also have to think about what Cinderace does in the matchup; it doesn't JUST check Kingambit, far from it; Cinderace is a bundle of utility. The same goes with encore Iron Valiant, Samurott-Hisui, and Zamazenta, where these mons check Kingambit, but you aren't using them specifically FOR Kingambit. For example, Cinderace has a one-time hazard removal, Iron Valiant can be a late game cleaner, Samurott-Hisui can set up hazards and maybe be a swords dance breaker, and Zamazenta is a great iron defense sweeper, 4 attack offensive mon, or as a general physical check.

I think this is an important distinction to make, and let's look at some banworthy mons and what makes them different.

The first one is Baxcalibur. On balance teams, Dondozo was the most reliable answer to it, and was even considered to be potentially broken before the DLC. Scale shot allowed it to even beat offensive teams well enough and pose a threat to all playstyles. This is a justifiably banworthy mon in my opinion, especially since it actually had so few answers.

Even though Dondozo is the best physical check and has utility in other matchups, the key difference is that you're damn near FORCED to use Dondozo in many cases on all sorts of fat teams, which is a big difference from what is happening with Kingambit.

The other one I would talk about is Ogerpon-Hearthflame. Very few answers, most of the counterplay was solely revenge killing or flat out terastallizing fire on some of the bulkiest mons, and this was only a temporary solution; it could switch out and loop the situation. For instance, I used a tera fire Mandibuzz to answer Ogerpon-Hearthflame, but this not only costed my tera, but if my opponent switched out instead of falling for the bait, I would be boned.

Kingambit isn't the same way; not only is there offensive counterplay, there is also defensive counterplay. Dondozo and will-o-wisp work as defensive counterplay (there are a lot others, but I would rather not list them all), and offensively, you can beat it with mons such as Iron Valiant, Samurott-Hisui, and bulk up Great Tusk.

Yes, not all of these mons beat every set, but because you are naturally going to be able to find a way to at least fit more than one form of counterplay, I do not like this argument for whether or not Kingambit is broken. It works for some mons, but not this one, at least not in my opinion.

 

[YNM]

People out here really saying "everybody is overprepared for that mon, so it's clearly not broken" goddamn

 

[ianlazerbeem]

because in a format like gen 7 OU (which is good and you all are cowards), you don't have to do 3-4 checks for one fucking pokemon. not even scarf landorus nor magearna requires that much attention because of how high the power level naturally is. The biggest thing you want to go out of your way to check is actually fucking shedinja because shed stall is the best form of stall in SM OU

2 is like fine, and again, most "Kingambit checks" provide plenty of value and have broad applications. Like why are you sitting here "it is RIDICUCULOUS that I need to run a fighting type and a Pokémon with encore;" if it's taking you 3-4 checks to take down a Pokémon that needs to be chipped once something clearly is an issue beyond the Pokémon itself. and hmmm it's interesting that the game where Pokémon can change their type requires you to bring more different types of counterplay to one Pokémon than in other generations. Perhaps something should be done about how difficult this mechanic makes teambuilding.

People out here really saying "everybody is overprepared for that mon, so it's clearly not broken" goddamn

Is there a particular team composition or playstyle that responding to Kingambit in the builder makes difficult to build? How would you change your teams if Kingambit were not a factor? What would you run instead?

 

[Ctann]

The whole “kingambit isn’t broken because you can find checks for it” doesn’t make sense on an end-game pokemon where you only have 1-2 checks left at best.

you could have a team with 6 kingambit checks. But in the end game when 3 have fainted and 2 are sub 60%, the gambit can conveniently be a set optimised for 2 checks and have enough HP to bypass the third.

So many times, before or after your checks are exhausted, games come down to 50/50s on sucker punch.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

The whole “kingambit isn’t broken because you can find checks for it” doesn’t make sense on an end-game pokemon where you only have 1-2 checks left at best.

you could have a team with 6 kingambit checks. But in the end game when 3 have fainted and 2 are sub 60%, the gambit can conveniently be a set optimised for 2 checks and have enough HP to bypass the third.

So many times, before or after your checks are exhausted, games come down to 50/50s on sucker punch.

How could they be weakened throughout the game if the only reason they're being run is for Kingambit? Wait a second...

Honestly my whole thing is the fact that you can make not only a perfectly good OU team that contains "3-4 checks to Kingambit," but a huge variety of playstyles and team structures that can beat Kingambit, why is having to run counterplay that's already diverse and viable a bad thing? It's really coming across as "ban stealth rock bc I can't use my favorite bug/flying shitmon" style "I should be able to use whatever Pokémon I want" style tiering action

And By the way Kingambit is like not even in the top 10 problematic mons vs stall which is already a niche play style. Dondozo (which is already required on every stall team) almost always wins and one more check for Tera dark seals the deal. This totally niche relatively tricky to build effectively playstyle doesn't struggle with Kingambit at all. Bulky offense is probably the best playstyle right now and those Ting Lu Zapdos teams do fine against Gambit. Balance is generally unviable but loves using Zamazenta which is a very reliable Gambit answer so it's easy to slot one more. Hyper Offense I could maybe see being mad they can't spam random sweepers and are locked into certain structures by Kingambit. But again, Booster Tusk and Zamazenta are SO GOOD and the former can even remove hazards!

 

[Alternator]

The whole “kingambit isn’t broken because you can find checks for it” doesn’t make sense on an end-game pokemon where you only have 1-2 checks left at best.

you could have a team with 6 kingambit checks. But in the end game when 3 have fainted and 2 are sub 60%, the gambit can conveniently be a set optimised for 2 checks and have enough HP to bypass the third.

So many times, before or after your checks are exhausted, games come down to 50/50s on sucker punch.

Flip the perspective, and your opponent is thinking:

"Ah, I've chipped down the Great Tusk enough that it won't live a +2 Dark Glasses Sucker Punch, and made sure it's not a Bulk Up set to force me into predictions. Iron Valiant had Encore but I did manage to kill it off, and my sneaky Tera Fire Kingambit doesn't particularly fear the Moltres. I've accomplished everything I needed to set the stage for Kingambit to sweep, so now it's showtime!"

The opponent has agency, too, and he's going to be actively trying to wear down the checks that his set can't answer. If he accomplishes that, then...what's the problem?

 

[YNM]

Is there a particular team composition or playstyle that responding to Kingambit in the builder makes difficult to build? How would you change your teams if Kingambit were not a factor? What would you run instead?

It's not a matter of checks for fuck's sake. The problem is EXACTLY the fact that, once your answers get scrambled like eggs left and right during the game, you are left with nothing healthy enough to face it. You said, and I quote:

Name one OU Pokémon you don't have to prepare for in the builder or that you won't lose to by not preparing to. This applies to the entire top 10 if not 20 at the very least. Whether Kingambit is broken or not (it's so much less reliable than it was 3 months ago) "it's broken because you have to prepare for it" is not good reasoning

and another person added:

Sure, running will-o-wisp Cinderace just for Kingambit, and then having to run something for the lum berry/tera fire Kingambits is not healthy, but you also have to think about what Cinderace does in the matchup; it doesn't JUST check Kingambit, far from it; Cinderace is a bundle of utility. The same goes with encore Iron Valiant, Samurott-Hisui, and Zamazenta, where these mons check Kingambit, but you aren't using them specifically FOR Kingambit. For example, Cinderace has a one-time hazard removal, Iron Valiant can be a late game cleaner, Samurott-Hisui can set up hazards and maybe be a swords dance breaker, and Zamazenta is a great iron defense sweeper, 4 attack offensive mon, or as a general physical check.

Now, I have answers for a lot of stuff on my teams, but clearly not for everything because I only have six slots. That's not how teambuilding works; you prepare as best as you can for the meta, and then use your skills to enforce your strategy through the games you play in order to try and win. If I don't have an answer for something, it might be a tough match-up but hey, I can skill my way through the game. As you said, there are tens of, if not more, threats in the meta currently, and I NEED to check them. Guess what? Those very versatile checks and answers I have, like Encore, Tusk, Valiant (which I'd rather use as a sweeper than as a check but you do you), Zamazenta, Moltres, Ace etc., end up getting used to check the other fucking threats. Again, you said it, if I don't use those answers I might lose.
BUT, even if my checks get KOd I can still use skillfull plays to work around those threats; that's what being a good player means. But with Kingambit, you fucking can't. There's no skillfull way to predict Sucker Punch or whatever bullshit Tera it might pull outta its ass. You HAVE to have an answer for it, or you lose on the spot. So now what? You don't let those answers out on the field to save them for Gambit, just to lose to the rest of the mons? Hey cool, you did it, you saved Valiant with Encore and Cinderace with Wisp. Whoooops the Gambit was Tera Fire all along, and it KOs your Valiant after it tries to Focus Blast/CC/Moonblast/Encore it, and now your Cinderace is done for. That's the problem with Gambit.
Btw, I'm asking the "low ladder scrubs" their thoughts over Tera, so once they reply I'll make sure to let y'all know.

These are the two people that have answered me as I'm typing (the others are all offline), so good start.

 

[yomaalt]

If you had to slap on tauros-blaze or seismitoad and they essentially covered every gambit set in one slot that would be ridiculously overbearing, but running those four specific measures and praying you don’t run into mental herb Tera fairy gambit is entirely reasonable

I never said gambit was ridiculously overbearing now, did I? (Atleast, I don't think I said that specifically) I said you've got to run a sort of an actual check and make sure your the rest of your team has something to do against gambit in any case, cause it can and WILL exploit any and every opportunity to fold you in half like an origami, then server you a fresh sucker punch right to your gut as you pray it has tera flying instead of fairy, as you click ispin on tusk and wath as the mf goes tera water instead

A mon forcing pressure on the builder doesn't have to be dracovish levels of bad to be smth worthy of talking about. A decent example of such would be dengo, it forces you to take in account how your team handles hazards, but you can still win even if you aren't completely 100% hazard insured. (Gonna be hard though) Against vish, no WA against rain = loss. Don't try fighting, it's going to do 87% at minimum.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Flip the perspective, and your opponent is thinking:

"Ah, I've chipped down the Great Tusk enough that it won't live a +2 Dark Glasses Sucker Punch, and made sure it's not a Bulk Up set to force me into predictions. Iron Valiant had Encore but I did manage to kill it off, and my sneaky Tera Fire Kingambit doesn't particularly fear the Moltres. I've accomplished everything I needed to set the stage for Kingambit to sweep, so now it's showtime!"

The opponent has agency, too, and he's going to be actively trying to wear down the checks that his set can't answer. If he accomplishes that, then...what's the problem?

100% this is actually the thing. What yNotMence is describing is "playing around your wincon" and Kingambit players are not "bullshit" for doing it

 

[Deathbringer7]

I haven't really seen a lot of Garchomp on ladder, did it really see enough usage on top ladder and SCL to rise back up to OU? What are the primary sets that catapulted it back up? Around 5.3% usage from like 3% is quite the jump that I really doubt low ladder can cause especially since low ladder doesn't really use Chomp cause it wasn't tagged as OU before.

 

[YNM]

 

[Star⭐]

I haven't really seen a lot of Garchomp on ladder, did it really see enough usage on top ladder and SCL to rise back up to OU? What are the primary sets that catapulted it back up? Around 5.3% usage from like 3% is quite the jump that I really doubt low ladder can cause especially since low ladder doesn't really use Chomp cause it wasn't tagged as OU before.

Chomp has the same usage as Mimikyu in SCL (3 times across the whole thing so far and 0 wins). It's outclassed in all of its roles. There's basically no reason to use it, ladder just wants to use their favorite jet shark and I respect that.

 

[RS25802580]

I'm not surprised at the relatively high Lando-T usage, it's still an excellent mon that can put in a lot of work post-Gliscor ban.

I've been using Spdef Lando to decent success. Spdef lets you switch into and soft-check several common mons like Iron Moth, Heatran, Zapdos (via Smack Down), and various Booster Valiant sets. It's a great user of Taunt to help its teammates better deal with some annoying things like Gargarnacl, Skeledirge, Amoonguss, and the occasional Cresselia.

Offensive Landorus I think is underexplored and potentially a very powerful breaker against many common team structures. The offensive three attacks + substitute set is particularly potent. Earthquake and Smack Down are mandatory, and the final moveslot can be allocated to either Tera Blast Flying or Grass Knot. The former OHKOs Rillaboom and Ogerpon while hitting Tusk for massive damage. This makes Lando unwallable by everything in the tier but Dondozo. The latter option hits Tusk without having to commit to Tera while breaking through Dozo, at the cost of being walled by Rillaboom.

 

[Return to Zero]

Flip the perspective, and your opponent is thinking:

"Ah, I've chipped down the Great Tusk enough that it won't live a +2 Dark Glasses Sucker Punch, and made sure it's not a Bulk Up set to force me into predictions. Iron Valiant had Encore but I did manage to kill it off, and my sneaky Tera Fire Kingambit doesn't particularly fear the Moltres. I've accomplished everything I needed to set the stage for Kingambit to sweep, so now it's showtime!"

The opponent has agency, too, and he's going to be actively trying to wear down the checks that his set can't answer. If he accomplishes that, then...what's the problem?

The problem is not that Kingambit is a sweeping wincon, because those are everywhere. It is the ease with which Kingambit can be one relative to how powerful it is. Kingambit, with its high usage rate and potential to decide a game's conclusion regardless of how either player acted up until that point, demands that every team has an answer for it. The flexibility and unpredictability of both Sucker Punch and its multiple viable Tera types often demand at least two potential answers for it depending on what it does. Zamazenta and Great Tusk, on paper being capable of hard stopping Kingambit, just end up being what forces it to Tera in practice, because Tera Fairy and Flying both shut them down. Even Heavy Slam or Ice Spinner only end up being 2HKOs without STAB, while Tera Blast after a Swords Dance and Supreme Overlord will OHKO the less bulky sets outright. The matchup isn't unwinnable since Sucker Punch relies on prediction and they're effectively both taking the same amount of turns to KO each other, but that's of course predicated on them being kept healthy enough the entire game to stay out of OHKO range.

Tusk, and Zamazenta to a lesser extent, are obliged to come in and broadly check other things as well. So's Cinderace, who struggles against Lum Berry sets. So's Iron Valiant, who absolutely cannot use Tera while Kingambit is still around for fear of losing its Dark resistance and generally doesn't want to use its Booster Energy trying to be a defensive check. So's Moltres, who also struggles against Lum Berry sets and never invests in offense enough to threaten an OHKO. So on and so forth. In contrast, Kingambit is not only capable of sitting in the back and waiting until half or more of its team has gone down to start sweeping, but that's one of the best things you can do with it. It is not playing the same game as everyone else. Its presence demands a level of caution and preparedness that the user is only doing half of. And that's not getting into the idea of how inherently ridiculous it is that Kingambit's damage is so through the roof that the majority of checks are no longer able to check it after four fainted teammates and maybe a Swords Dance too.

That's my issue, basically. Kingambit places a ton of pressure on you in the builder and in the game for all of see above, all the user has to keep up with is item choice, whether they're max HP or Speed, and predicting whether or not to go for a Sucker Punch. Even Tera isn't really a skillful decision with Gambit since it's mostly just the "give me one free turn against my check" button for it, moreso than nearly anything else. Extremely high reward for relatively little risk.

 

[SittinGamer]

Finch posted thoughts on OU risers on Twitter iirc, saying that Rocky Helmet Chomp serves as a nice anti meta pick with the insane levels of u turn and zapdos, able to still chunk some common things, and has both stealth rocks and spikes.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Was the ban of gliscor what caused skeledigre to rise to OU?

 

[awyp]

Was the ban of gliscor what caused skeledigre to rise to OU?

It was a top reason, but I don't think it was the only thing, Skele has always dropped because of how well Moltres was doing towards the end of HOME.

 

[TheTraininator]

I want to make a biiiiiiig post talking about why Darkrai should be tested for OU sometime during DLC2 and why a lot of the arguments alleging it is too broken to even consider a test for are incredibly flawed, but I don’t know whether it would be best to save it for sometime after DLC2 actually drops when it would be more relevant but when discussions would be more actively focused on other things or if it would be better to talk about now when there’s less important things to talk about instead but it’s less relevant to the moment at hand. I’m curious as to people’s opinions; should I make the post now or later?