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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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I think there's an argument to be made for Knock Off, as it's a better move into fire-types that can damage it, like Moltres with Hurricane or Iron Moth with Sludge Wave. It also removes the boots from its best check, dragonite, meaning that it takes a minimum of 54% from the Knock and Rocks damage next time it switches in. This range allows a favorable chance to OHKO with a +2 Ivy Cudgel even without Teraing. It's also better into random physically bulky teras like Tusk and Dozo, since it allows you to chip them with the 5 million layers of spikes your Samurott/Meow/Gliscor/Ting-Lu/Garchomp/Shocks set up. It does sort of lose harder to setup Kommo-o, which is a downside, but it can knock off the Throat Spray, which actually makes a difference:
+1 252 SpA Kommo-o Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 264-312 (69.8 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Defensive Ghold can paralyze it with Thunder Wave and then OHKO it with hex afterwards
+1 252 SpA Kommo-o Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 228-269 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously KOs
+1 252 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Munkidori: 246-289 (77.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously KOs
+1 252 SpA Tera Normal Kommo-o Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 135-159 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Heatran gets Magma Storm + Earth Power chip which admittedly doesn't KO but does leave it vulnerable to priority or your scarf Mon. If it Teras, Heatran wins.
+1 252 SpA Tera Normal Kommo-o Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Emergency check, can paralyze it
Defensive Ghold can paralyze it with Thunder Wave and then OHKO it with hex afterwards
+1 252 SpA Kommo-o Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 228-269 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously KOs
+1 252 SpA Kommo-o Clanging Scales vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Munkidori: 246-289 (77.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously KOs
+1 252 SpA Tera Normal Kommo-o Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 135-159 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Heatran gets Magma Storm + Earth Power chip which admittedly doesn't KO but does leave it vulnerable to priority or your scarf Mon. If it Teras, Heatran wins.
+1 252 SpA Tera Normal Kommo-o Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Emergency check, can paralyze it
You can hit Kingambit with Play Rough, which is pretty important for Cornerstone since it otherwise would be revenged easily.
Also Superpower/Low Kick is probably the best option on Cornerstone.
How's that Tera Water Salt Cure taste?
I think Encore is also worth considering as a 4th move option on some Ogerpon sets. It's arguably the best move in the game this gen (mons like Valiant, H-Samurott, and now Alolan Ninetales are proving this plenty as is) but I think Ogerpon can do a nice job abusing the move thanks to that base 110 Speed (especially on Hearthflame sets that opt to run Trailblaze) since you can exploit the living daylights out of mons thinking they're cute for trying to set up hazards, Veil, etc. in front of you.
That being said, Encore is such an incredible move that I think pretty much any OU-viable mon that gets it should at least attempt to use it. It's just an incredibly amazing move.
That being said, Encore is such an incredible move that I think pretty much any OU-viable mon that gets it should at least attempt to use it. It's just an incredibly amazing move.
That Power Whip or Wood Hammer prolly gonna hurt a bit tho
252 Atk Meadow Plate Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Like it's going to take 40-65% and demolish it.
Duraludon is not in DLC1. It currently cannot enter SV
I kind of just realized this but the two ice Alolan forms synergies really well
The two best sets are sash and assault vest
Sandslash-Alola @ Focus Sash
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head / Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
Sandslash-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Ice Spinner
- Earthquake
- Leech Life / Poison Jab / Rapid Spin/ Low Kick
you can also run support
Sandslash-Alola @ Focus Sash
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
The two best sets are sash and assault vest
Sandslash-Alola @ Focus Sash
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head / Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
Sandslash-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Ice Spinner
- Earthquake
- Leech Life / Poison Jab / Rapid Spin/ Low Kick
you can also run support
Sandslash-Alola @ Focus Sash
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
Fire ogerpon has 2 very sturdy pre-tera defensive answers, in phys def moltres (with brave bird/hurrucane) and phys def tauros-paldea-fire (with resttalk or wish support from mola). Those two are of course useful beyond checking fire ogerpon (moltres for val and enam and tauros for spreading wisp, checking physical attackers and demolishing screens). Also,any bulky mon with tera fire is able to check it (great tusk in particular, and of course dozo, who also, in pre tera form, doesn't mind fire ogerpon if the latter was already forced to terastallize to make progress). Fire ogerpon needs a lot of support to break past those checks,including carrying torkoal in the back for sun setting purposes. That leaves a nasty weakness to hazards for ogerpon's team,while limiting the number of times the fire mask mon can come in. And that's without mentioning its very good but not great speed tier, making it prone to revenge killing from naturally faster mons,scarfers,booster energy mons and of course priority
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Dont forget it has Knock Off, Substitute, and Brick Break Too, and under snow and Aurora Veil it has effectively 360 base defense. Uploading some matchups soon.
Bro, Knock Off, Stealth Rock and U-Turn are even better than most of those.
hey guys
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sandslash-Alola in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 153-180 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
none of those have individually made a mon worthy of tiering discussion. ceaseless edge, salt cure and dire claw have played crucial parts in getting their users on tiering surveys, rage fist landed its only viable user in ubers, and both shed tail and last respects are banned. these moves are carrying entire pokemon, and sometimes entire teams, by themselves
this is biased though because a lot of these are sig moves with insane abusers. knock off has wide distributiom of different powerlevels and so does uturn and sr. the only one id argue is better is shed tail but i think its more so uncompetitive than busted
distribution doesn't affect how good a move is. how many mons learn a move is not an intrinsic quality of the move itself. in a vacuum, each of the moves i listed is leagues better than knock off or stealth rock. and for the record, last respects is not just uncompetitive but anti-competitive—shed tail takes skill out of the game, but last respects straight-up hands the win to the worse player
it affects how many use cases we get to see of a move. knock off for example is an extremely good move because its consistent, has lots of uses in different archetypes and tiers, and even with low and high power it sees use. Would something like salt cure be easily abused if it didnt have the pretense of being used by garganacl with its defensive profile and rest of movepool?
i think the problem here is that we have different definitions of "good". you're defining good moves as "moves that have high distribution and versatility". i'm defining good moves as "moves that can, and often do, singlehandedly decide games even with heavily limited distribution". i think your definition is also valid, but i believe these game-deciding moves are better than the versatile ones
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I see what you are trying to say, and I have to say, this argument can basically be applied with Chi-Yu.
Fire CHI-YU has 2 very sturdy pre-tera defensive answers, in SPDEF TTAR (with EQ/STONE EDGE) and Sp def tauros-paldea-fire/water (with resttalk). Those two are of course useful beyond checking fire ogerpon (Ttar for Moth/Baxcalibur and tauros for spreading wisp, checking physical attackers and demolishing screens). Also,any (specially) bulky mon with tera fire is able to check it (Scream Tail/Amoongus in particular, and of course Clodsire. Fire CHI-YU needs a lot of support to break past those checks, including carrying torkoal in the back for sun setting purposes. That leaves a nasty weakness to hazards for CHI-YU's team,while limiting the number of times the fire mask mon can come in. And that's without mentioning its very good but not great speed tier, making it prone to revenge killing from naturally faster mons,scarfers,booster energy mons and of course priority
The issue is that it centralizes teambuilding too much. Tauros is an NU shitmon that no team would run otherwise, and Pdef Moltres is, like, the only semi-splashable answer to it at ALL. And it's not even a good answer, because it runs Knock Off half the time! Your best bet is to run Tera Fire on Dozo or Tusk, also run boots, have a good knock off absorber, and don't use them for walling anything else because they need to be healthy to check it, or else it will SD on the rest turns and just beat Dozo anyway or just hit Tusk hard with +3 STABs and straight up 3HKOing it. This is an insane level of commitment for the opposing team, while the only drawback for the Ogerpon user's team is using a rocks-weak mon that can't run boots or scarf.
I think they mean the best move that isn’t exclusive to one or two Pokemon
Furthermore, splitting hairs about what "the best move" is isn't metagame discussion. Saying that anything that can run Encore will probably benefit from running encore because it's amazing into several major threats & allows for numerous setup and pivoting opportunities is.
now this i can agree with. encore isn't "arguably the best move of the gen" as far as i'm concerned, that's hyping it up too much, but it's undeniably fantastic in a meta that has this much setup and this many hazards and virtually anything that can learn it will be able to make good use of it
speaking of, has anyone tried out encore clefable? i feel like it has potential but i can't decide what to slot encore in over
I give u the lack of many defensive counters. But there are so many mons with the same characteristics as fire ogerpon (lack of many sphashable answers) that if we went by that logic, with the right set, breloom,brute bonnet in sun, og ursaluna as well as bm ursaluna, mixed hoopa-u, walking wake,kingambit, i-val and so many more threats are basically,to a bigger or lesser extent unwallabe, especially without factoring in tera. Does it make them banworthy all of them? No,because for most of them there is offensive counterplay as well as the hazards factor. The same goes for fire ogerpon (who by no means is close to what chi yu was capable off right from the get-go).
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