Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[escarlata]

Honestly, as a mid-1400s player, I'm really feeling the strain on defense when I try to play balance. You need tusk not to autolose to gambit, you need Wake or Ogerpon-W not to autolose to weather, you need something that can take a hit from +1 Valiant, Specs Pult, +2 Kommo, +2 Hamurott, and a million other random-ass setup pokemon that get setup. Stopgaps to these pokemon basically don't exist. For example, I tried using Gliscor against Kingambit: even in the perfect scenario, where Gambit doesn't Tera and Gliscor is at full, Earthquake is only a 3HKO on the bulky variant, which proceeds to sweep me with its priority. Oh, and it can Tera, making the things that can semi-consistently beat it just... not. Tusk becomes fucking setup from literally any Tera and Ival has to hard switch in to hopeful catch the swords dance to encore, which loses its BE, and also restricts it from using a choice item, which I would really fucking like to run. And don't even get me started on weather. Using a bulky resist isn't fucking enough, because of calcs like these:

Ya da de da de da. It is good day to be not dead. POW! you are dead! The balance is dead?

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola in Sun: 264-311 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 206-243 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tera Water Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Rain: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Battle bond variant, not even Specs)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Rain: 162-191 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Zapdos Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor in Rain: 276-326 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Yknow, funny shit like this. 16 Turns is more than enough for them to kill everything on your team twice.
And the final nail in the coffin is ursa-bm. Bro just calm minds once, clicks blood moon, and murders everything. The best i could come up with is sacking gliscor to toxic it and trying to play around its STABs with protect on a steel type and then switching to a flying type to hopefully minimize what it can do.
Lastly, I think Tera is really restricting what the tier can actually develop into. When you give ANYTHING free setup turns, most things become impossible to really deal with without using the dedicated unaware wall of their type, which obviously don't fit onto balance very well. An example is the other day when I got swept by dragon dance Crawdaunt who tera'd fairy, absorbed my draco meteor from dragapult, got up 2 dragon dances, and then won the game. The only real way to counter defensively is with Dozo, which is already being spammed everywhere. The best way to deal with such threats is to out-offense them, which is leading to the hazard stack and offense-infested meta. I really think that Tera and a meta that favors balance will never be conducive.

Since you mentioned Alomomola in your calcs, I’d like to bring up Mirror Coat Alomomola as a check to weather teams. Having Regenerator Scald already makes it kinda decent, and it’s not like it has any good move to run in the last slot either.

 

[tigers jaw]

not gonna speak about a-tales’ general viability, though i will say it’s not on the level of tusk/gambit/ghold etc. (i imagine this will be represented when the vr is more specific in placements).

the idea that a-tales is “splashable”, or is a good random pick for your average team, is a strange one to me. you don’t use a pokémon like a-tales, something that is tremendously poor bar one move, without specifically building a team around it. it is a massive, unnecessary investment if you aren’t going to do so.

the very nature of veil puts you on a timer to get the most value out of the 8 active turns you have, and because of this, you are forced to use partners that make the best use of said turns, with the minimal defensive utility/checks to common threats as possible. this means stacking offense to overwhelm the opposing team. you don’t really get much out of veil with passivity.

compare this to a non-veil team where you might have a sturdier backbone, or wincons/breakers that aren’t dependant on halved damage to make progress, more defensive pivots, and the like. it makes little sense in those scenarios to use a-tales when you could patch up holes in either your offensive or defensive matchups more effectively.

 

[Bugboy]

There are 100% balance teams running around with ninetales-A plus one setup sweeper & gliscor. I thought it looked like a goofy build first time I saw it on ladder, but lost because I couldn’t kill gliscor under veil.

super anecdotal 1600ish gameplay rn, but I do think it’s a bit silly to act like ninetales-a is only seeing play in HO

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

and it’s not like it has any good move to run in the last slot either.

it's got a couple. protect synergizes really well with wish and helps in the bloodmoon matchup more than mirror coat for certain sets, whirlpool is a solid way to trap mons and then flip turn/switch into a check or counter without having to worry about the opponent switching, soak is a very underexplored way to fuck up some mons' matchups against garganacl, body slam is nice for spreading paralysis coupled with scald to spread burn, and you can also run light screen to boost everything's spdef for a bit. don't get me wrong, mirror coat is great, but let's not act like it's alomomomomomola's only option

 

[MrE]

it got on the radar around the same time other broken stupid fucking pokemon were on the tier, and very quickly after those were banned, people stopped spamming screens and no one cared anymore

screens is only as good as the gap of the best sweepers in the tier, ie. baxcalibur already had very little that stopped it from sweeping every team, so the nudge of AV is easy to justify

but when you ban the brokemons and suddenly you are down to good pokemon that also have way more checks, putting up screens is just not worth it on most teams, including most HO. Kingambit may be insane and I want it banned, but most of the counterplay is the same with or without screens, ie. Burn + Bulk Up Tusk (pre tera lol) + Encore. Taking more hits is cool and all, but not only does a Pokemon like Kingambit work better when most of the opposing team is already chipped, but also attacking it is not really the counterplay.

Baxcalibur only had two forms of counterplay. 1. Booster Valiant (one time check), 2. Revenge killing it. Veil removed that.

Now let's look at other Pokemon in the tier, currently. Ursaluna BloodMoon is a good candidate for screens, except the way fat deals with it anyways is to try and put it on a timer. Plus, most Ursa BM don't even run screens along with it, because it doesn't need screens. Only things like Ogrepon can revenge it, and Tera Poison (also good for Gliscor Toxic bc it doesn't really care about EQ funnily) makes those inconsistent.

Manaphy is probably the best screens abuser left, and even then, it's honestly not all that. It has strong 4MSS, and honestly it usually still loses with a lot of the same checks most setup Pokemon have right now.

Halving damage for that long for "free" would be great if it was actually free, but you're all vastly overestimating Ninetales' actual ability to be a Pokemon in of itself. It isn't one.

Proclaiming its Special Attack is real is just not statistically true, especially when almost no one is investing in it.

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 162-192 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 218-258 (68.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dragapult, a Dragon-Type with okay natural Special bulk, can lead against Alolan Ninetales and literally kill it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 163-193 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO

This is if you don't go Modest, which I see a lot of Dragapult doing a-la endgame SWSH.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 180-213 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only does Alolan-Ninetales not kill but also even if it clicks Veil, Infilitrator will kill it.

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I mean seriously it's only a very low chance to OHKO zero bulk Waterpon with a 4x STAB move. Of course you can get previous chip, but like you just are not using Alolan Ninetales as its own Pokemon.

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 256-304 (79.2 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 128-152 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 180-212 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 152-182 (52.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 102-122 (35.2 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 128-152 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 138-164 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 242-288 (75.3 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Walking Wake: 300-352 (88.4 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 220-264 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

I mean, literally quad weak Pokemon can setup on this Pokemon, or 1v1 because they just live.

In terms of bulk, if you are running Light Clay you are also not running HDB, and now it is simply not walling anything, even at +1.

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 157-186 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So, let's see. Alolan-Ninetales kinda sucks at killing anything, it kinda sucks at walling things. It kinda gets owned by Court Change which everyone is using, and the best thing it does is put up Veil, which has arguably no broken abusers.

Sounds like a splashable Highest Tier Pokemon to me!

By the way, I am not talking about this anymore. I will just ignore you.

'By the way, I am not talking about this anymore. I will just ignore you.'

This just shows your petulance and the fact that you know you're losing the argument. Be better.

As for the content of your post, honestly I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here, all I'm seeing is a bunch of 2hko's on the tiers mons from an uninvested support mon, that's pretty good if you ask me, what other support mon does this?

If we're going to talk about her offensive presence, how about we invest a lil bit into special and see what happens when combined with your favourite move 'one of the most broken moves in the game' Nasty plot;

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Nasty Plot
- Blizzard/Freeze dry
- Moonblast/Draining kiss/Psyshock

This spread gives it 301 hp and 248 special, I'll be honest I'm just winging this to prove a point and the hp/special mix can be changed to ensure you don't get 2hko'd by certain targets and you ko certain targets, I just wanted hp investment to 301 to help with bulk as even if this mon does nothing else but get up veil it'll still have been of great help to your team. There's enough slow grounds/grasses/darks ect to come in on and set up in the tier so getting going shouldn't be a problem. Obviously if you're wanting to late game sweep with this you're probably going to want hazard removal support, but then, hasn't almost every broken set up sweep mon needed a bit of support? After 2 turns of set up you're at 301 558 472 defences and 496 348 offences, not bad. Here's what it does to the tier.

Loses to Ace
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 398-470 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 626-740 (197.4 - 233.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 542-638 (170.9 - 201.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 288-338 (90.8 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Loses to Gholdengo
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 544-648 (154.5 - 184%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 856-1012 (243.1 - 287.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 524-620 (120.7 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 824-972 (189.8 - 223.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 714-840 (164.5 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 374-444 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 373-439 (129 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 644-762 (222.8 - 263.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 338-402 (116.9 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Loses to Gambit but you still do this to it facilitating a teammate to finish him off
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 246-291 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 318-374 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 214-253 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Beats Waterpon if it hasn't tera'd, basically trades if it does AND doesn't have Freeze dry
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 652-772 (216.6 - 256.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow through Reflect: 85-101 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 446-528 (103.7 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 702-828 (163.2 - 192.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 744-876 (217.5 - 256.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 289-342 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 500-590 (146.1 - 172.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Loses to band Zamazenta's heavy slam unless you catch it on the switch with moonblast
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 380-450 (116.9 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow through Reflect: 314-370 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Wins vs iron defence Zama
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 588-692 (110.1 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 399-469 (74.7 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 542-638 (125.4 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clef probably isn't favourable as you'll get t-waved though Clef itself can't do shit to you
Lose to unaware Clod as you'll get poisoned and it can recover. Ninetales gets Psyshock but it doesn't do more than blizzard
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clodsire: 180-212 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dozo can't do shit to you other than stall snow and veil unless you tera ice and have freeze dry
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Dondozo: 224-266 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Dondozo: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-374 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 498-588 (138.7 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 380-450 (131.4 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Salt cure sucks and ruins your parade garg is broken please ban
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 211-249 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glimmora: 297-349 (96.7 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 416-492 (145.9 - 172.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 566-668 (198.5 - 234.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 164-193 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 243-286 (76.4 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 210-247 (66 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Loses to Iron Moth unless it's running Psyshock
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 1192-1408 (312 - 368.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 662-780 (225.9 - 266.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 572-674 (195.2 - 230%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 666-786 (169.8 - 200.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 492-578 (140.1 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 844-1000 (240.4 - 284.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 608-716 (189.4 - 223%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 446-528 (138.9 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowking-Galar: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
Does this against Glowking but loses if it's running Sludge bomb due to regenerator
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 724-856 (240.5 - 284.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 542-638 (181.2 - 213.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 312-368 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 166-196 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 542-642 (141.1 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bold = >50% chance of OHKO
Italic = <50% chance of OHKO

Sorry for the wall of calcs, how do you set it so it has a collapsable thing within the post that others use?

So out of everything above decent viability she wins (depending on set) against all but 8 (out of 37 mons) using arguably her worst set. For a defensive support mon that's pretty great imo. This is all before factoring (outside of where I've mentioned it) tera ice'ing or tera fairy'ing which will take some rolls into guarantee and might take some 2hko's into rolls/guarentee's but I'd have to check.

How on earth is this not at LEAST an A- mon considering everything else it can do?

 

[Bugboy]

'By the way, I am not talking about this anymore. I will just ignore you.'

This just shows your petulance and the fact that you know you're losing the argument. Be better.

As for the content of your post, honestly I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here, all I'm seeing is a bunch of 2hko's on the tiers mons from an uninvested support mon, that's pretty good if you ask me, what other support mon does this?

If we're going to talk about her offensive presence, how about we invest a lil bit into special and see what happens when combined with your favourite move 'one of the most broken moves in the game' Nasty plot;

Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Nasty Plot
- Blizzard/Freeze dry
- Moonblast/Draining kiss/Psyshock

This spread gives it 301 hp and 248 special, I'll be honest I'm just winging this to prove a point and the hp/special mix can be changed to ensure you don't get 2hko'd by certain targets and you ko certain targets, I just wanted hp investment to 301 to help with bulk as even if this mon does nothing else but get up veil it'll still have been of great help to your team. There's enough slow grounds/grasses/darks ect to come in on and set up in the tier so getting going shouldn't be a problem. Obviously if you're wanting to late game sweep with this you're probably going to want hazard removal support, but then, hasn't almost every broken set up sweep mon needed a bit of support? After 2 turns of set up you're at 301 558 472 defences and 496 348 offences, not bad. Here's what it does to the tier.

Loses to Ace
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 398-470 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 626-740 (197.4 - 233.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 542-638 (170.9 - 201.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 288-338 (90.8 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Loses to Gholdengo
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 544-648 (154.5 - 184%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 856-1012 (243.1 - 287.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 524-620 (120.7 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 824-972 (189.8 - 223.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 714-840 (164.5 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 374-444 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 373-439 (129 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 644-762 (222.8 - 263.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 338-402 (116.9 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Loses to Gambit but you still do this to it facilitating a teammate to finish him off
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 246-291 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 318-374 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 214-253 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales-Alola: 214-253 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Beats Waterpon if it hasn't tera'd, basically trades if it does AND doesn't have Freeze dry
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 652-772 (216.6 - 256.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow through Reflect: 85-101 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 446-528 (103.7 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 702-828 (163.2 - 192.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 744-876 (217.5 - 256.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 289-342 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 500-590 (146.1 - 172.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Loses to band Zamazenta's heavy slam unless you catch it on the switch with moonblast
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 380-450 (116.9 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow through Reflect: 314-370 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Wins vs iron defence Zama
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 588-692 (110.1 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 399-469 (74.7 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 542-638 (125.4 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clef probably isn't favourable as you'll get t-waved though Clef itself can't do shit to you
Lose to unaware Clod as you'll get poisoned and it can recover. Ninetales gets Psyshock but it doesn't do more than blizzard
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clodsire: 180-212 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dozo can't do shit to you other than stall snow and veil unless you tera ice and have freeze dry
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Dondozo: 224-266 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Dondozo: 153-180 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-374 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 498-588 (138.7 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 380-450 (131.4 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Salt cure sucks and ruins your parade garg is broken please ban
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Garganacl: 211-249 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glimmora: 297-349 (96.7 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 416-492 (145.9 - 172.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 566-668 (198.5 - 234.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 164-193 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 243-286 (76.4 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 210-247 (66 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Loses to Iron Moth unless it's running Psyshock
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 1192-1408 (312 - 368.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 662-780 (225.9 - 266.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 572-674 (195.2 - 230%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 666-786 (169.8 - 200.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 492-578 (140.1 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 844-1000 (240.4 - 284.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 608-716 (189.4 - 223%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 446-528 (138.9 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowking-Galar: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
Does this against Glowking but loses if it's running Sludge bomb due to regenerator
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 724-856 (240.5 - 284.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasler: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 542-638 (181.2 - 213.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 312-368 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 166-196 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 200 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 542-642 (141.1 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bold = >50% chance of OHKO
Italic = <50% chance of OHKO

Sorry for the wall of calcs, how do you set it so it has a collapsable thing within the post that others use?

So out of everything above decent viability she wins (depending on set) against all but 8 (out of 37 mons) using arguably her worst set. For a defensive support mon that's pretty great imo. This is all before factoring (outside of where I've mentioned it) tera ice'ing or tera fairy'ing which will take some rolls into guarantee and might take some 2hko's into rolls/guarentee's but I'd have to check.

How on earth is this not at LEAST an A- mon considering everything else it can do?

God I really think calcs are like the least valuable way to prove a point, this entire post makes it clear how easily it can be manipulated by somebody to say some shit like alolatales isn’t viable. (Talking about ant’s calcs, yours shows exactly how everything changes when the bias is removed).

calcs are the best friend of forum posters without any meaningful real tier experience. The sorta poster that is clearly out of touch with OU but posting extremely aggressive takes based on what feels right to them. That sorta poster really plagues these forums.

 

[Darlington]

I have a serious to ask; out of all the new and old returns Mon in the dlc 1, which one has given you guys the most successful win. I have won a lot of games with all the Ogerpon forms and Gliscor. Those two mons have given me good wins whether it was out playing and forfeiting as well especially Gliscor has given me a lot of forfeit win which I take

 

[Bugboy]

A bit more on calcs, the community really should have caught on to this during Ursaluna’s introduction. You can post any number of insane calcs for that mon and compare them to mons as broken as firepon, but without context they mean very little.


252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 397-468 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Tera Fire Ogerpon-Hearthflame-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 370-436 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to

This also makes it very clear why things like community surveys and suspect tests are insanely valuable. It’s very difficult to objectively quantify why a Pokémon is broken.

 

[Jhang]

Having been a long time Abomasnower who swapped over to A-Tales begrudgingly for OU, A-Tales definitely has a bootleg Tyranitar thing going on where its bulkier than last gen by the virtue of the changes to snow. But it has some of the same problems as Tyranitar in that it's doesn't mesh too well with tera, and lower overall stats and downright limp spa places it firmly in 'well I guess it also does 'blank' instead of 'oh and it also gets screens up too!' Yes it can nasty plot, yes it can blizzard out as an offensive support, but that basically declares at best that isn't going to let you in passively. Even it's speed tier is kind of just good enough.

That said it's probably the best weather setter in the tier right now as a pokemon, especially with how easier it is now to get snow on a team and with bax ban, fewer ice types in your way with snow up. When I see the viability lists I sense either A-Tales is on the low end of high viability, or the high end of good viability. It feels less viable than most of the high viable types despite its strong utility value, but definitely more viable than a chunk of the good.

 

[ant4456]

Ninetales. Is not meant to kill things. Its support is good, but not splashable, That's it. It can do some things but you don't use them for that, that's not why you run Veil. You aren't running Veil for Ninetales, you aren't running Ninetales for Nasty Plot or some other shit. You are running it for one cheese HO teamstyle that isn't even that good, honestly.

That Nasty Plot set is bad. Your arguments are bad. I am only responding because I got literally 3 quotes, and all of them are garbage.

If you think a good argument is Nasty Plot Ninetales, you are

calcs are the best friend of forum posters without any meaningful real tier experience. The sorta poster that is clearly out of touch with OU but posting extremely aggressive takes based on what feels right to them. That sorta poster really plagues these forums.

like this person, you have no reason to make fun of others for how they analyze the tier. If you think Nasty Plot Ninetales calcs are actually good tiering discussion, you are not valid. This Pokemon will be B+ at best in like two months, goodbye.

 

[FayaWizard]

Wait are we seriously discussing nasty plot ninetales? Why are you using offensive ninetales that's just wasting veil and snow turns which can be used for better offensive mons

 

[escarlata]

it's got a couple. protect synergizes really well with wish and helps in the bloodmoon matchup more than mirror coat for certain sets, whirlpool is a solid way to trap mons and then flip turn/switch into a check or counter without having to worry about the opponent switching, soak is a very underexplored way to fuck up some mons' matchups against garganacl, body slam is nice for spreading paralysis coupled with scald to spread burn, and you can also run light screen to boost everything's spdef for a bit. don't get me wrong, mirror coat is great, but let's not act like it's alomomomomomola's only option

Wish and Protect are kinda a given (hence the mention of last slot rather than last two), but Whirlpool has always felt rather underwhelming pre-DLC which only felt useful because Chilling Water didn't do enough alone.
With Scald though, it does have more freedom to run better moves in the last slot though, but for the most part I find myself clicking Wish/Protect/Scald no matter I had in the last slot anyway, but Light Screen / Mirror Coat are basicallly the next best choices for dealing with special attackers imo.
Didn't realise it got Flip Turn in the DLC though, definitely something to try on teams where I have something else to deal with Rain.

 

[TCTphantom]

If Ursaluna Blood Moon is the next suspect and the song isn’t CCR’s Bad Moon Rising I’m going to be so nettled.

Honestly wonder what the timeline will end up being if the next suspect ends up not going through with a ban. Gambit, Zama, and Wake survived their tests. Maybe we test whatever of Manaphy/Blood Moon we don’t test next? Let the meta settle more?

 

[pika pal]

Ninetales. Is not meant to kill things. Its support is good, but not splashable, That's it. It can do some things but you don't use them for that, that's not why you run Veil. You aren't running Veil for Ninetales, you aren't running Ninetales for Nasty Plot or some other shit. You are running it for one cheese HO teamstyle that isn't even that good, honestly.

This still doesn't address the massive contention with the contextless calcs or explain why Ninetales supporting one type of Mon/Team is enough to say it will struggle to make B+ (finished A- in the much-less offensively inclined Gen 8 Meta with the less-supportive Hail). Ninetales only supporting one team style as a knock against its viability also entails demonstrating that the team style isn't strong enough to make a splash. You yourself say "Ninetales is not meant to kill things" when several of the responses were questioning the Calcs of Ninetales not killing things and what they prove since they also argue that not being its role.

If anything the massive hazard influx makes Screens Bulk more valuable to Set-up Breakers or Win Conditions because it results in having less bulk to get the set-up turns with or a dependence on Boots/Leftovers that make the Boosting much more important to break through a Core.

The "goodbye" and refusal to respond isn't going to stop people from trying to argue with your points, nor is calling the quotes "terrible" while responding in a way that doesn't effectively refute them.

 

[Soiramio3000]

it is weird how rarely I see people using manaphy.

it is a pretty good pokemon, the current viability list has it on the highest viability.

so why do I rarely see it?
it is not like it can't function outside of rain teams.

also considering that weavile barely sees play even though it got knock off back, I doubt if it will ever manage to get in OU even if it gets triple axel back on the next dlc.

do you think that dipplin has any pottential of ever making it in the viability list even on the lowest rank?
(for everyone who does not know: eviolite actually works on this thing, it also recover and sticky hold).

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Ninetales. Is not meant to kill things. Its support is good, but not splashable, That's it. It can do some things but you don't use them for that, that's not why you run Veil. You aren't running Veil for Ninetales, you aren't running Ninetales for Nasty Plot or some other shit. You are running it for one cheese HO teamstyle that isn't even that good, honestly.

That Nasty Plot set is bad. Your arguments are bad. I am only responding because I got literally 3 quotes, and all of them are garbage.

If you think a good argument is Nasty Plot Ninetales, you are

like this person, you have no reason to make fun of others for how they analyze the tier. If you think Nasty Plot Ninetales calcs are actually good tiering discussion, you are not valid. This Pokemon will be B+ at best in like two months, goodbye.

my guy tried storming out of the room through a revolving door

Wish and Protect are kinda a given (hence the mention of last slot rather than last two), but Whirlpool has always felt rather underwhelming pre-DLC which only felt useful because Chilling Water didn't do enough alone.
With Scald though, it does have more freedom to run better moves in the last slot though, but for the most part I find myself clicking Wish/Protect/Scald no matter I had in the last slot anyway, but Light Screen / Mirror Coat are basicallly the next best choices for dealing with special attackers imo.
Didn't realise it got Flip Turn in the DLC though, definitely something to try on teams where I have something else to deal with Rain.

oh, i thought you were assuming wish/scald/flip turn. protect is, in my opinion, less important to the mon than being able to slow-pivot its base 165 wishes, which is why i thought that was the move you were leaving out

 

[Ihatestall]

it is weird how rarely I see people using manaphy.

it is a pretty good pokemon, the current viability list has it on the highest viability.

so why do I rarely see it?
it is not like it can't function outside of rain teams.

also considering that weavile barely sees play even though it got knock off back, I doubt if it will ever manage to get in OU even if it gets triple axel back on the next dlc.

do you think that dipplin has any pottential of ever making it in the viability list even on the lowest rank?
(for everyone who does not know: eviolite actually works on this thing, it also recover and sticky hold).

Manaphy has issues slotting into every style of play, and has severe 4mss, needing tail glow,rest/take heart, something for dragons, something for pex and dozo, and surf. Don’t get me wrong, against semi stall thing thing is a spawn of satan, but it’s just not flexible in its role. Usually it fits nicely into rain and screens.
Dipplin MIGHT be usable in ou, however, I haven’t used it much cuz a veil is still flying around everywhere and you don’t wanna die to a slight chill from atales.

 

[BijouMode]

Ninetales. Is not meant to kill things. Its support is good, but not splashable, That's it. It can do some things but you don't use them for that, that's not why you run Veil. You aren't running Veil for Ninetales, you aren't running Ninetales for Nasty Plot or some other shit. You are running it for one cheese HO teamstyle that isn't even that good, honestly.

That Nasty Plot set is bad. Your arguments are bad. I am only responding because I got literally 3 quotes, and all of them are garbage.

If you think a good argument is Nasty Plot Ninetales, you are

like this person, you have no reason to make fun of others for how they analyze the tier. If you think Nasty Plot Ninetales calcs are actually good tiering discussion, you are not valid. This Pokemon will be B+ at best in like two months, goodbye.

I would say that I do, actually, agree with the poster here as Ninetales is solely used for screens and hail support and it's just not that good of an offensive mon. Yes, it's nice to have a usable special attack and relatively powerful moves, but realistically, the only reason you would be using ATales is for Aurora Veil, and therefore you won't be investing in SpA and you definitely won't be using Nasty Plot.

However, what I don't agree with is that you are running ATales for "one cheese HO teamstyle that isn't even that good", It is the best enabler of hail and one of the best enablers of screens, being able to set them up in one turn and provide a defense boost for any Ice mons in the team and I think that its viability strongly relies on the offensive power of the metagame around it and, as we all know, this metagame is very very powerful. (In viability I'm guessing it will be A, maybe A+ at a stretch)

 

[ianlazerbeem]

it is weird how rarely I see people using manaphy.

it is a pretty good pokemon, the current viability list has it on the highest viability.

so why do I rarely see it?
it is not like it can't function outside of rain teams.

also considering that weavile barely sees play even though it got knock off back, I doubt if it will ever manage to get in OU even if it gets triple axel back on the next dlc.

do you think that dipplin has any pottential of ever making it in the viability list even on the lowest rank?
(for everyone who does not know: eviolite actually works on this thing, it also recover and sticky hold).

Manaphy outside of rain just is a really unremarkable setup sweeper. Take Heart sets basically require veil to function and Manaphy is slower than other great setup sweepers in the tier and nothing can be done about that. Why send out Manaphy to burn a Tera and get outsped when we have a million Swords Dancers who don't have that problem, or Pokémon like Valiant who are strong and fast right out the gate? It'll be UUBL by January. Maybe even just UU after Teal Mask.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

do you think that dipplin has any pottential of ever making it in the viability list even on the lowest rank?
(for everyone who does not know: eviolite actually works on this thing, it also recover and sticky hold).

i don't think anyone else does, but you know what, i believe in dipplin. someone will find a way to make it work, dammit

 

[Alternator]

it is weird how rarely I see people using manaphy.

it is a pretty good pokemon, the current viability list has it on the highest viability.

so why do I rarely see it?
it is not like it can't function outside of rain teams.

also considering that weavile barely sees play even though it got knock off back, I doubt if it will ever manage to get in OU even if it gets triple axel back on the next dlc.

do you think that dipplin has any pottential of ever making it in the viability list even on the lowest rank?
(for everyone who does not know: eviolite actually works on this thing, it also recover and sticky hold).

I have taken to calling this Garchomp Syndrome: a mon can do a bunch of things well, but it faces competition in every role it can fill, so the viability ranking is much higher than the usage ranking.

Dipplin seems the kind of mon that might find a very specific "I can wall X, Y, and Z" niche to fill and see periodic use, but have absolutely zero value outside that exact use. These mons rarely stay useful for too long, because unless that list of wallable mons is large, it tends to be a sign that you're using it to counter a broken threat.

 

[redninjapuffle]

it is weird how rarely I see people using manaphy.

it is a pretty good pokemon, the current viability list has it on the highest viability.

so why do I rarely see it?
it is not like it can't function outside of rain teams.

While the thing CAN function, a lot of mons can do its setup sweeper role better, due to either: Better Bulk or Better Speed.
The problem with Manaphy is that it has 4MSS, it wants surf for stab, either tail glow/take heart to sweep, and then ice beam, energy ball, psychic, and/or dazzling gleam for coverage. Factor that in with its 100 stats across the board, which while fine, means it get outclassed by a lot of mons in a lot of categories. There's only so much Manaphy can do, and most of the time you can find a mon who does it better.

While on rain it can function pretty well, as hydration with rain makes it immune to status while buffing its stab water attacks. Manaphy will likely stay as a rain staple because it gets outclassed by other setup sweepers outside of rain.

 

[pika pal]

The big issue I think for Dipplin is that while it has impressive bulk with Eviolite, its typing isn't that great for resistances (4 Resistances vs 6 weaknesses, of which I think the latter are more common than the former on average) and it doesn't have very much it can do while sponging hits. It lacks a move like Toxic or Garg's Salt Cure to punish things sitting in front of it, only has Growth for boosting into a Snowball situation, and lcks the coverage even then to work if it accrues a lot of boosts.

Maybe if it gets some new moves in DLC2 I could se it working, but right now it looks like a D/Low-C tier option of "I wall this specific array of threats to your team if you need it that badly"

 

[TheTraininator]

The big issue I think for Dipplin is that while it has impressive bulk with Eviolite, its typing isn't that great for resistances (4 Resistances vs 6 weaknesses, of which I think the latter are more common than the former on average) and it doesn't have very much it can do while sponging hits. It lacks a move like Toxic or Garg's Salt Cure to punish things sitting in front of it, only has Growth for boosting into a Snowball situation, and lcks the coverage even then to work if it accrues a lot of boosts.

While I think most of what you said is true, this bolded point I think isn’t accurate because it actually does have one tool to do this: Dragon Tail. It prevents anything from setting up in front of it and helps accrue constant hazard damage on the enemy’s team. As a result, Dipplin has a solid niche on hazard stack teams, but tends to be far too passive anywhere else like you suggested.

 

[BijouMode]

it is weird how rarely I see people using manaphy.

it is a pretty good pokemon, the current viability list has it on the highest viability.

so why do I rarely see it?
it is not like it can't function outside of rain teams.

also considering that weavile barely sees play even though it got knock off back, I doubt if it will ever manage to get in OU even if it gets triple axel back on the next dlc.

do you think that dipplin has any pottential of ever making it in the viability list even on the lowest rank?
(for everyone who does not know: eviolite actually works on this thing, it also recover and sticky hold).

Dipplin @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Energy Ball/Syrup Bomb
- Recover
- Body Slam

This is the only Dripplin set I can think of rn, it just phazes and can spread paralysis. You can change the EVs if there's something specific you want to check.