Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[kstiemsma]

You can say Stored Power is annoying, and I'd arguably agree with you on that, but it's not something that's banworthy on it's own. There's a plethora of counterplay to Stored Power specifically, however we see cases of Pokemon being problematic when they have aspects in combination with it.

- Hatterene is only as good of a Stored Power user because it has Magic Bounce, an insane ability, typically with support from Grassy Terrain + Grassy Seed.

- Espathra is only as good of a Stored Power user as it is because it has Speed Boost, Calm Mind, Substitute and is an effective user of Tera Blast.

- Magearna is only as good of a Stored Power user as it is because it has an insane defensive typing, Shift Gear, Calm Mind, and Soul-Heart.

- Manaphy is only as good of a Stored Power user as it is because of it's acces to scald, Double Dance, a second very viable set with Tail Glow, which forces guessing games, all with a very potent defensive typing

- Cresselia is only as good of a Stored Power user as it is mainly because of Levitate, which is very beneficial in the current spikes heavy meta, but also insane defensive stats.

- Polteageist is only as good of a Stored Power user as it is because it has Shell Smash, usually in conjunction with Psychic Terrain as well


You can argue that you dislike the move Stored Power, so it should be removed, but the abusers of it all have various elements on top of Stored Power that makes them able to abuse it so effectively. I'd only really go so far as saying Magearna, Espathra and Manaphy are the truly broken pokemon, the others are definitely manageable and beatable with a lot of counterplay.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that stored power NEEDS to be banned, but we have already seen the idea that moves don't need to be banned on a majority of users to be banworthy or uncompetitive (this gen especially). The push to nerf Tera by removing Tera Blast is something that has been put forward by high level players and council members, and you can very reasonably make transitive reasoning from that to Stored Power as a move. It encourages cheese and matchup fishing to a higher extent than almost any other move.

Ausma had a great post explaining this reasoning on Tera Blast here. The overall viability of Stored Power within the meta is definitely lower than Tera Blast, but there was still one mon banned (primarily) due to each move (Espathra and Regieleki), and similar numbers of high level abusers (Kingambit, Dragonite, Iron Moth vs Manaphy, Hatterene, and Cresselia).

Side note- Power Trip would probably be a better move than Stored Power if it had the same distribution, it's only not talked about due to the fact that the only mon that has even a meme set that can use it is Corviknight.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

9) Sticky barb Clefable. Take heart doesn't clear sticky barb

i dunno, i've never been sold on sticky barb clef. it just feels too much like a meme set that no one's had the heart to call out for what it is because it happened to be useful against roaring moon. someone sell me on this set

 

[Heatranator]

1) Haze on something that can actually win the 1v1 (Milotic)

I honestly don't think that milotic can win the 1v1. All you need to do is get a scald burn and then stall out the milotic by switching between take heart and scald. Eventually, milotic will run out of recover pp, which remember is only 8 pp, and you can defeat it. Now, you do take significant damage from the exchange, but it most likely is the main answer on the team for manaphy. The only way I conceive you can lose is if you tera early, as you remove your water resistance. I've had multiple games where I've beaten milotic's, so it isn't an answer to manaphy.

 

[Fusion Flare]

To respond sincerely to this, the issue is that Overqwil, while decently matched into Ogerpon-W, is not a very effective Rain presence otherwise since it lacks STAB on Rain-boosted moves, is not very bulky without Intimidate (in which case it forgoes the Swift Swim you would theoretically be using under Rain), and struggles against other important mons Rain would be concerned with giving free turns to such as Kingambit.

While Overqwil would perform well against Ogerpon, it's using a valuable slot for suboptimal overall performance, so Ogerpon-W is negatively impacting the Rain team's viability whether that weakness is "left" or accounted for via Overqwil. If there existed a "Johto" version of Overqwil that retained the Water/Poison typing it probably would fare much better and perform the role in question effectively.

Adding on to this, I tried Overqwil myself back in the home meta days, and there are a few things holding it back, namely that you can’t really beat Great Tusk and Kingambit without Tera, and it really likes LO for the extra damage. Of course, it’s gotten better ban after ban, and definetly appreciates being able to feast on Rillaboom, but definetly not something i’d use often. If you want something to keep Ogerpon-W off your case, i’d recommend just using things like Tornadus-Therian to revenge kill or Amoonguss to hold it off.

 

[Roshino]

I honestly don't think that milotic can win the 1v1. All you need to do is get a scald burn and then stall out the milotic by switching between take heart and scald. Eventually, milotic will run out of recover pp, which remember is only 8 pp, and you can defeat it. Now, you do take significant damage from the exchange, but it most likely is the main answer on the team for manaphy. The only way I conceive you can lose is if you tera early, as you remove your water resistance. I've had multiple games where I've beaten milotic's, so it isn't an answer to manaphy.

I dunno man, even if you account for Scald burns, Milotic's on-demand recovery gives it the edge.

0 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 43-51 (10.6 - 12.6%)
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Milotic: 29-34 (7.3 - 8.6%)

Milotics would respond with a similar Scald-Haze loop, and 8 recovery pp (that is what, 4 full health bars?) should be more than enough to win the battle of attrition, since Manaphy doesn't have readily available recovery, right?

I'm curious on how you dealt with that. I run Milotic myself, but I run slow flip turn into more advantageous matchups so I kinda skip this whole part, meaning it's all theory

edit: grammar
edit2: redacted my explanation because someone did it way better than me

 

[Heatranator]

I dunno man, even if you account for Scald burns, Milotic's on-demand recovery gives it the edge.

0 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 43-51 (10.6 - 12.6%)
0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Milotic: 29-34 (7.3 - 8.6%)

Milotics would respond with a similar Scald-Haze loop, and 8 recovery pp (that is what, 4 full health bars?) should be more than enough to win the battle of attrition, since Manaphy doesn't have readily available recovery, right?

I'm curious on how you dealt with that. I run Milotic myself, but I run slow flip turn into more advantageous matchups so I kinda skip this whole part, meaning it's all theory

The milotic's that I've seen have had the necessary moves of scald/recover/haze, and then mirror coat or dragon tail. With take heart + leftovers, your taking minimal damage, only 4-6% per turn. Mirror coat is annoying, but once they reveal it, you don't go for stored power. Dragon tail resets the matchup, so it is annoying. And remember, before they can get the haze off, they have to deal with a +1 scald, which while it still does not do much damage, this is combined with the burn, which does 1/16 of their health per turn.
+1 0 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Milotic: 43-51 (10.9 - 12.9%) -- possible 8HKO
If you don't get the burn, milotic absolutely wins the 1v1, but with burn, it's just a waiting game, a long waiting game. Maybe it's just because in the games my opponents were 1400's.

 

[YubelVT]

i dunno, i've never been sold on sticky barb clef. it just feels too much like a meme set that no one's had the heart to call out for what it is because it happened to be useful against roaring moon. someone sell me on this set

reverend uses it

good set 10/10

 

[Srn]

i dunno, i've never been sold on sticky barb clef. it just feels too much like a meme set that no one's had the heart to call out for what it is because it happened to be useful against roaring moon. someone sell me on this set

Hey yo Dr. (degree pending) Srn here to explain exactly why sticky barb is imo the best item for Magic Guard Clefable.

Sticky Barb works by passing from Clefable onto a target that uses a contact move against Clefable IF they have no item. There are many such examples of itemless pokemon that will pick up Sticky Barb from Clefable, such as Booster Energy Great Tusk, Unburden Sneasler, Physical/Mixed Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Focus Sash Ceruledge, and Sitrus Berry Azumarill. However, these cases are rather niche. It has broader applications with team support. So how it works is like this:

1) My Gliscor uses Knock Off against the opposing Corviknight
2) Corviknight now uses U-turn against Sticky Barb Clefable, passing the Sticky Barb from Clefable to Corviknight. Don't let Clefable's Sticky Barb get Knock'd Off before this!
3) Now Corviknight is holding a Sticky Barb and slowly dies, unless Gliscor eats a Knock Off at some point and then clicks Knock Off again vs Corviknight, which would pass the Sticky Barb to your Gliscor. Be careful not to do this!

Here is an example battle where this happened when I ran into a mirror matchup early on doing reqs. On turn 15, I make the mistake of clicking Knock Off, and the Barb gets passed to my Gliscor. You can see from that point on that the barb negates my poison heal recovery, making the Stealth Rock chip damage "permanent," and I eventually lose my Gliscor switching it in to the opposing Gliscor to prevent Eq/Toxic progress. That should have been the game-losing play for me, but my opponent uses their Tera poorly, allowing me to Tera Dragon my Dragapult and out-offense them in the long run, turn 111 being very key.

By coordinating Sticky Barb with Knock Off from your teammates, you can easily spread that barb to key targets and force important progress vs opposing fat teams. It's not an obvious tech to understand, but don't be so quick to call it "a meme set that no one's had the heart to call out" just because you haven't used it enough!

 

[Roshino]

Hey yo Dr. (degree pending) Srn here to explain exactly why sticky barb is imo the best item for Magic Guard Clefable.

Sticky Barb works by passing from Clefable onto a target that uses a contact move against Clefable IF they have no item. There are many such examples of itemless pokemon that will pick up Sticky Barb from Clefable, such as Booster Energy Great Tusk, Unburden Sneasler, Physical/Mixed Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Focus Sash Ceruledge, and Sitrus Berry Azumarill. However, these cases are rather niche. It has broader applications with team support. So how it works is like this:

1) A Teammate knocks off a pokemon (For example, my Gliscor uses Knock Off against the opposing Corviknight)
2) The knock'd pokemon makes contact with Clefable, passing the barb on (Corviknight now uses U-turn against Sticky Barb Clefable)
3) Now the Knock'd pokemon is holding a barb and slowly dies, unless you make a contact move against corv without holding an item (If your Gliscor took a Knock Off, be careful not to use Knock Off against Corviknight as that would pass the Sticky Barb back to you)

Here is an example battle where this happened when I ran into a mirror matchup early on doing reqs. On turn 15, I make the mistake of clicking Knock Off, and the Barb gets passed to my Gliscor. You can see from that point on that the barb negates my poison heal recovery, making the Stealth Rock chip damage "permanent," and I eventually lose my Gliscor switching it in to the opposing Gliscor to prevent Eq/Toxic progress. That should have been the game-losing play for me, but my opponent uses their Tera poorly, allowing me to Tera Dragon my Dragapult and out-offense them in the long run, turn 111 being very key.

By coordinating Sticky Barb with Knock Off from your teammates, you can easily spread that barb to key targets and force important progress vs opposing fat teams. It's not an obvious tech to understand, but don't be so quick to call it "a meme set that no one's had the heart to call out" just because you haven't used it enough!

Well I'll fucking delete my post because this explanation is a thousand times better than mine

 

[sims796]

I'm slightly stoned, and having a few thoughts after a few recent games. I'd love some feedback and counterthoughts and what not. Mb for the long tirade.

I have not properly appreciated the magnitude of this gen's power creep till now. It does not simply bend towards offense. I knew this, but never noticed just how much. Yeah, we have Garg and Dozo, Corvid is holding up, but defense has benefitted so much, I understand the nerf to recovery moves.

I'm not even talking about Gliscor, or even mons like Bloodmoon, with absolute def and offense. But the set up sweepers are real. Hatterene was very good back when and is still adapting (Agility what), and mons like Cres can tear you up if you aren't prepared. I don't think Stored Power is anything to complain about, however. So many mons can run away with a game after a few boosts. I never even used to used Stored Power on CM Hatt much pre dlc, Psyshock (and Psychic I guess) suited me more due to the immediate power, and after 2 boosts everything else veers on overkill. I would rarely click anything but Draining Kiss to begin with! So S. Power isn't the issue. Maybe the fact that literally the only type immune to that move are weak to Moonblast is the problem.

And defense has only grown! We keep looking at the powerhouses like Bax and others, and I'm so glad that they are gone (and more need to go, as their offense was OU breaking, no matter how much fast pace you like your games) but now the tanks are even more free to arm themselves. Spikes are free to spike. Etc. This is good I think. Offense is still kinda crazy, and I like to see the countermeasures for all this defense as well. Plus new tech can arise. Spikes Barb Clef is fun, and Rillaboom has been getting the love it deserved. Grassy Terrain I feel is the best terrain, bar none. Gutting the power of the most popular Ground type move, free recovery (if you're utilizing grassy, please account for your opponent's recovery), enabling Grassy Seed shenanigans, Unburden tech...

I'm thinking of Sinistcha in particular. Mentioned the lil' teacup before, but it's ability to completely run away with games is frightening. This is the spiked tea that Bloodmoon has been drinking all this time - with Grassy Seed, it can simply force a checkmate. No issue with Tusk, and Poison Tera can even handle Headlong Rush if I don't see Booster: Atk.

And it's just the teacup. I don't even think it's the best at doing the whole "overloaded tank" playstyle, it just happens to be an effective playstyle. I get that it's annoying how game ending it can be, but I've learned how important it is to dedicate a way to end set up sweepers cold And so many ways to shut it down! You see Rilla and an unknown pick assume Grassy Seed bullshittery. It isn't always Unburden you have to look out for. Trick, hazing made Milotic shine, Whirlwind has been my answer to Booser Energy bs.

Yeah that's it for now, sorry for the ramble. I forgot where I was going with all this, but I will say that while I understand everyone's dismay over the state of the meta, I feel it's just getting out of the larval stage, and if we look back at our progress, like look back right this moment, everyone should feel pretty good about themselves on it.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

I'm slightly stoned, and having a few thoughts after a few recent games. I'd love some feedback and counterthoughts and what not. Mb for the long tirade.

I have not properly appreciated the magnitude of this gen's power creep till now. It does not simply bend towards offense. I knew this, but never noticed just how much. Yeah, we have Garg and Dozo, Corvid is holding up, but defense has benefitted so much, I understand the nerf to recovery moves.

I'm not even talking about Gliscor, or even mons like Bloodmoon, with absolute def and offense. But the set up sweepers are real. Hatterene was very good back when and is still adapting (Agility what), and mons like Cres can tear you up if you aren't prepared. I don't think Stored Power is anything to complain about, however. So many mons can run away with a game after a few boosts. I never even used to used Stored Power on CM Hatt much pre dlc, Psyshock (and Psychic I guess) suited me more due to the immediate power, and after 2 boosts everything else veers on overkill. I would rarely click anything but Draining Kiss to begin with! So S. Power isn't the issue. Maybe the fact that literally the only type immune to that move are weak to Moonblast is the problem.

And defense has only grown! We keep looking at the powerhouses like Bax and others, and I'm so glad that they are gone (and more need to go, as their offense was OU breaking, no matter how much fast pace you like your games) but now the tanks are even more free to arm themselves. Spikes are free to spike. Etc. This is good I think. Offense is still kinda crazy, and I like to see the countermeasures for all this defense as well. Plus new tech can arise. Spikes Barb Clef is fun, and Rillaboom has been getting the love it deserved. Grassy Terrain I feel is the best terrain, bar none. Gutting the power of the most popular Ground type move, free recovery (if you're utilizing grassy, please account for your opponent's recovery), enabling Grassy Seed shenanigans, Unburden tech...

I'm thinking of Sinistcha in particular. Mentioned the lil' teacup before, but it's ability to completely run away with games is frightening. This is the spiked tea that Bloodmoon has been drinking all this time - with Grassy Seed, it can simply force a checkmate. No issue with Tusk, and Poison Tera can even handle Headlong Rush if I don't see Booster: Atk.

And it's just the teacup. I don't even think it's the best at doing the whole "overloaded tank" playstyle, it just happens to be an effective playstyle. I get that it's annoying how game ending it can be, but I've learned how important it is to dedicate a way to end set up sweepers cold And so many ways to shut it down! You see Rilla and an unknown pick assume Grassy Seed bullshittery. It isn't always Unburden you have to look out for. Trick, hazing made Milotic shine, Whirlwind has been my answer to Booser Energy bs.

Yeah that's it for now, sorry for the ramble. I forgot where I was going with all this, but I will say that while I understand everyone's dismay over the state of the meta, I feel it's just getting out of the larval stage, and if we look back at our progress, like look back right this moment, everyone should feel pretty good about themselves on it.

I think the problem with this gen is that Hazard is so much more accessible now.
Building a BO team is extremely hard. Sure you have options like Corvi and Tusk but even without the existence of Ghold, they still wouldn't be as good, cause Corv is pretty passive and Tusk gets worn down way too easily.
Spikes distribution has caused this to be a problem. Before, Ferrothorn has to be careful about setting Spikes because it's slow and the tier is packed with fire and fighting moves. Nowadays, mons like Gliscor and Samurott-H can set multiple layers without much issues. The removal options are much more limited too.

 

[sims796]

I think the problem with this gen is that Hazard is so much more accessible now.
Building a BO team is extremely hard. Sure you have options like Corvi and Tusk but even without the existence of Ghold, they still wouldn't be as good, cause Corv is pretty passive and Tusk gets worn down way too easily.
Spikes distribution has caused this to be a problem. Before, Ferrothorn has to be careful about setting Spikes because it's slow and the tier is packed with fire and fighting moves. Nowadays, mons like Gliscor and Samurott-H can set multiple layers without much issues. The removal options are much more limited too.

Thanks for pointing this out, because I was also having thoughts on Gholdscor and the future of the meta. As in, with those two gone I wanna see how it shapes. I for one welcome seeing less Icy Spinner so my grass can stay.

 

[awyp]

Why is Gliscor even being asked about?

Thought I'd bring this back out since it aged badly, but tbh it was directed at Ursaluna-Blood Moon and Ogerpons. The good thing about if Gliscor becomes Uber it definitely has viability there so it won't be a garbage mon without any usage.

 

[YNM]

I'd like to announce that I'm officially on the team "ban Iron Valiant that shit is stupidly broken" starting from today.

 

[RudeLiees]

I'd like to announce that I'm officially on the team "ban Iron Valiant that shit is stupidly broken" starting from today.

I think that is very good but not broken
He can run many set, like scarf, spec, booster or life orb in electric terrain spam.

He have really good offensive stats
His speed allow to valiant to outspeed after unburden and use psychock to ko

have a really good offensive double type, unresisted by most of mons.
The encore set is pretty strong.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It's not an obvious tech to understand, but don't be so quick to call it "a meme set that no one's had the heart to call out" just because you haven't used it enough!

oh, i don't actually consider it a meme set, it just feels like one, deep down, like how ribombee feels like an ru mon that snuck into the tier with a fake id. but i very much appreciate the explanation and will definitely be trying out the set at some point soon because you make a very compelling case for it!

 

[Will of Fire]

The fact that Hidden Power Ice is no longer a thing, and also not one of the most widespread coverage moves in the game? But Idk man maybe I'm tripping or somethin'

HP ice was teched to snipe gliscor and lando in previous generations plus counterplay was more prevalent. The utility sets best switch-ins were steels like kart, celesteela or ferrothorn which could force progress on gliscor while taking minimal chip in return. In gen 7, it also had to deal with skarm, which got spikes up for free, kyub, washtom and ashgren being everywhere, sub serp etc. while a lot of pokemon also carried knock off and toxic so that between your mega/z-move slot and pex/mag or w/e meant teams were inherently prepared.

I'd like to quote these 2 because of the similar topic, even with hp ice available the problem was solved more on paper than on practice. The utility set wasn't particularly an issue but you have to consider the support gliscor had behind, kartana ferrothorn and celesteela both could get trapped by magnezone that is a common partner for it and besides kartana to answer and keep it in check needs the grassiumz set and has to guess the turn correctly without wasting the z move, supposing you mentioned kartana with that set in mind. All considering hazards chip and these answers are not sufficient to check well the sd set for which you need of your own more specific answers. Mega latias with ice beam still is worn down by rocks chips and facade on the switch in while gliscor passively recovers with poison heal and has to be careful with pursuit support behind from weavile/ttar and if gliscor goes full SpD ice beam is a roll highly not on your favor. Mega alakazam with hp ice is not even killing from full(unless modest with a low roll on your favor) and needs prior chips and can't come in easily on it. All the other mons mentioned need to position well and have to take hazards in the process (kyub, washtom needs z or investment in SpA/connect pump multiple times, ash gren) and compared to a gliscor that can roost their longevity is very small.

I want to respond to a few of these statements, with the disclaimer that I am a much worse player in practice than on paper so feel free to take grains of salt with what I say based on that admission.

I find bringing up Tera in this post very interesting because it underlines one of the major changes that has affected Gliscor's position this Gen vs last: In previous generations, Gliscor was troubled by a 4x Weakness on its worse defensive stat to arguably the most common Hidden Power coverage, meaning a LOT of Pokemon carried a way to get around it that also benefited match-ups with the rest of the tier. With that removal, Ice and Water coverage is significantly more limited outside of Pokemon that bear them as STAB types without using Tera Blast, which then is a trade-off with the other uses of Tera you outline later in the post.

On the Hazard discussion, this doesn't really change the argument. Gliscor exacerbates the Hazard stack issue even more than these Pokemon do because it has a borderline perfect defensive Profile for that Meta (Immune to everything but Neutral SR and Poison Heal recovers SR's damage on top of other benefits like Status Immunity). Even if Gliscor had not been given Spikes I would still hazard a guess it would be highly controversial (if not high priority to Suspect as it is now) simply because Gliscor has so many easy ways to block Progress while making them itself in Toxic and Knock Off, the latter removing the boots so many teams rely on to not lose more-per-switch than Gliscor does, though Spikeless Gliscor is theorymon in this case. Ting-Lu and Samurott-H might be extremely effective as Spikes setters, but they are NOT in the same league as Gliscor is on that front, such that if you consider them "egregious" then I would be hard-pressed to know what criteria does not also include Gliscor.

The Tera example is particularly interesting to me because if anything I would be inclined to say Gliscor is MORE busted in a Tera-less Generation 9, since removing Tera will primarily hinder offensive styles which as is already struggle to break through Glis-Cores the majority of the time, and Gliscor itself seldom uses the mechanic because of the above-mentioned benefits of its base type. I don't even disagree with the notion that Tera is an unbalanced mechanic (I don't want to take a strong stance until we know the game's done with major shake-ups in DLC2), but arguing that Tera makes the offensive roster of the tier too powerful and varied (particularly citing set-up users) whilst also arguing Gliscor is the only Defensive presence holding them back

feels like an admission that Gliscor is simply broken-defense checking broken-offense, when that offense is a very long list of Pokemon due to Tera. If anything this is an argument in favor of a Ban vote for Gliscor because most Pro-Ban arguments find it suffocating against broken attackers, much less the "balanced" state one would argue them to be in with a Tera ban/restriction.


Unnecessarily condescending phrasing aside, this is falling into whataboutism. Sneasler very frequently comes up in this thread as a subject of controversy (and several thread posts here are FINALLY arguing from the crowd I was in that Dire Claw is trash cheese vs Gunk Shot's power on the Sweeper sets) and everyone knows it's heavily enabled by Grassy Terrain from Rillaboom who is cited very often as a powerful Meta presence itself. With all of THAT said, the accusation of hypocrisy or double-standard entailed by "funnier to spam Wood Hammer compared to Gliscor" is to make the assumption that people don't consider Rillaboom and Sneasler problematic enough to be acted on simply because survey respondents thought Gliscor was more significant to act on first. This isn't even incongruent because Sneasler struggles into Gliscor so if we assume all 3 Pokemon are unbalanced, removing Gliscor would highlight Sneasler's problems, whereas the argument here almost (unintentionally or otherwise) suggests Sneasler is OP enough to act on before Gliscor in a Metagame heavily favoring two of Sneasler's best checks in it and Gholdengo.

Also, what the heck is this supposed to suggest?

This is sounding like the "Big Stall" jokes people make about Finch and the council, but unironically, the seriously suggest Gliscor is up for tiering action over "more problematic threats and situations" because some prominent players and a Council member voiced their contention with the Pokemon and people agree with it? In a forum that considers public opinion, telling people your position and attempting to convince them to align with your vote is pretty typical interaction. Is this supposed to cast doubt on the Gliscor vote as a large sect of people "following the leader" on the ban vote, despite Gliscor placing MARKEDLY higher amongst the "Qualified" tiering Survey vs the General input (3.53 vs 3.99 is ~12% difference, which is very significant)? Encouraging posters to "use more critical thinking" is a very back-handed way to phrase it, especially when the suspect/action was pushed for more heavily by the players who already "git gud" so to speak over the "anyone can read and then vote" category.

I don't even get what your point is about "not relying solely on surveys" as if Finch and multiple Council Members haven't expressed several times that they think Gliscor to be unhealthy or at least worthy of investigating as such prior to the Suspect announcement. If they didn't go by what the surveys said, that wouldn't likely have led to something else being acted on before Gliscor. If anything the alignment between Council and Survey position shows exactly why the surveys are important: they verify that tiering action from the higher-ups is reflecting what the playerbase would want to happen.

To borrow methods of argument used in this post, I encourage you to consider that if your position represents such a significant departure from multiple Council Members, the Forum Goers AND the Qualified Survey base, that you may need stronger arguments than
- Deflecting to Tera-Broken with Gliscor holding it in check
- Citing other Spikes users as overbearing (correct or not) as if to say "why bother?" about Gliscor's overall weight
- Whataboutism with not suspecting other threats that have been acknowledged, even if not as problematic, first
- Accusing the playerbase of not thinking critically enough or prominent players of "campaigning" or manipulating public opinion when it does not align with your own position

Your contributor and WCoP Champion badges clearly indicate a player who knows their stuff, but the arguments presented in this specific post do not make a strong case for the point put forth. I don't blindly follow big user opinions, and simply put the opinion shared by Pro-Ban/Suspect "fashionable" users was more convincingly argued under a critical eye than the Anti-Ban ones so far.

I did not neglect that gliscor has a strong defensive profile and suspect testing it is a respectable decision, for me keeping it around in the broken checking broken environment that is a reality in gen 9 and not only for gliscor case, is the best course of action. And I did not say gliscor is not good at setting spikes up, if anything I said that other 2 mons do it well,not necessarily better than it. Samurott in particular I see it a lot more annoying in that regard because not only it's setting a layer up but also doing you significant damage, taunting gliscor or using hatterene to play a bit around the spikes from it is an option, on samurott you have to pray for a miss of ceaseless edge or be well positioned for a kill.

I'd argue that in a teraless environment gliscor would be easier to manage because you can plan against it knowing its actual type chart weakness that can't be randomly flipped.

Rillaboom and sneasler were mentioned by me not for whataboutism but because I believe that in a scale of priority to address for a ban, they can easily come before gliscor. You all can mention them here or elsewhere as much as you like, the problem in my eyes is that they were not considered first(rillaboom not even considered). Sneasler is broken with or without dire claw but saying that dire claw is trash is quite naive don't get offended, the amount of games you can cheat with it is off the chart. And sneasler not only beats gholdengo, it also can pass gliscor if it goes for the sub set with teraflying. Since not all the people vote with the idea of balancing the game they play but many are selfish, yes I can point at the hypocrisy of those that will vote for gliscor to go just because they want to have fun and don't like big stall gliscor. Same reason I don't see the surveys working properly, they can be manipulated by selfish players and can be completed without putting the right focus on them, bringing to incomplete results.

If the council or the rest of the qualified playerbase wanted gliscor to be chopped first then good , maybe a number of them really believes it should go for genuine reasons and can't wait to address all the other problems of the metagame. Still I'll repeat, being part of the majority doesn't always mean being right.

Don't be too harsh with yourself, I appreciate your honesty and the time you took to reply.

 

[gregdawiz]

What are the thoughts on ? To me, honestly, this thing seems like a huge fraud flavor-of-the-month type of deal. For sure usable in OU but not something I would consider good. Here is a retelling of a recent interaction I had against a Milo player:
- used Nasty Plot
Opponent switched in
- used Nasty Plot
used Mirror Coat, there was no effect
- used Shadow Ball, Most of 's health is gone
used Haze, stat changes were reverted
- used Shadow Ball
fainted!

Seems like a lot of work just to do no damage to , which Milotic is 'supposed' to be able to deal with. Honestly Mirror Coat as a set just seems to easy to deal with to ever truly be consistent in OU. (especially if tera-d grass) & will always substitute, will always set up, will do either, will click their one trick pony moves or switch, and will U-turn. Mirror coat seems super good if your opponent isn't expecting it or they're running 4 attacks Booster, but everyone knows what Milotic does at this point so I just do not see the hype anymore. You just have to play too perfectly in most circumstances.

 

[1LDK]

What are the thoughts on

You don't have to necessarily run mirror coat, other popular options are flip turn to create momentum for you, Ice beam to nail the dragons and even dragon tail if you're going full hazard stacking

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

What are the thoughts on ? To me, honestly, this thing seems like a huge fraud flavor-of-the-month type of deal. For sure usable in OU but not something I would consider good. Here is a retelling of a recent interaction I had against a Milo player:
- used Nasty Plot
Opponent switched in
- used Nasty Plot
used Mirror Coat, there was no effect
- used Shadow Ball, Most of 's health is gone
used Haze, stat changes were reverted
- used Shadow Ball
fainted!

that's just the milotic player losing 50/50s, what's the big deal? if they'd clicked haze on their first turn out instead of mirror coat, or mirror coat on their second turn instead of haze, the matchup would have gone much more positively for milotic. i think this speaks more to your skill and the opponent's lack thereof than to milotic's viability

 

[dragonbr]

Genuinely, why is Serene Grace alright, when King's Rock isn't? If anything, SG is a far superior version of KR, not taking up a much needed item slot while literally doubling the chances of success on whatever gamble you were taking.
This isn't saying ban SG, but rather unban KR since its legit a lesser SG

If King’s Rock was legal, then this would be a thing. Now we don’t want that… Right?

What are the thoughts on ? To me, honestly, this thing seems like a huge fraud flavor-of-the-month type of deal. For sure usable in OU but not something I would consider good. Here is a retelling of a recent interaction I had against a Milo player:
- used Nasty Plot
Opponent switched in
- used Nasty Plot
used Mirror Coat, there was no effect
- used Shadow Ball, Most of 's health is gone
used Haze, stat changes were reverted
- used Shadow Ball
fainted!

Seems like a lot of work just to do no damage to , which Milotic is 'supposed' to be able to deal with. Honestly Mirror Coat as a set just seems to easy to deal with to ever truly be consistent in OU. (especially if tera-d grass) & will always substitute, will always set up, will do either, will click their one trick pony moves or switch, and will U-turn. Mirror coat seems super good if your opponent isn't expecting it or they're running 4 attacks Booster, but everyone knows what Milotic does at this point so I just do not see the hype anymore. You just have to play too perfectly in most circumstances.

Rule 1 with Milotic:
If they have any stat boosts, You switch-in, and immediately Haze.

Rule 2 with Milotic:
In that Ghold matchup, 4 things can happen.
A. They are faster and they attacked on your Haze-> Next Turn click Recover. They will generally followup with another attack or nasty plot, position for scald burn, and once they get desperate then mirror coat.
B. They plotted and are Faster. Just Scald. Then Mirror Coat if they plotted on your Scald. If they attacked on your Scald, Recover. Repeat till burn kills it.
C. They are slower. And they plotted. Haze. You get fast haze off, so you can fast recover if they MIR. In this situation, once you learn their attack turn, use mirror coat, negative priority .
D. They attacked and are slower. Recover. And then follow C.

Its not really about playing perfect, it’s more just about playing good. Its similar to stall, but it just fits better on balance teams. Ur just playing Scald Pex at home !

^^^

Idk man if they clicked haze first turn I think i'd just keep clicking Nasty plot until they stopped clicking haze. Then if they tried to spam haze forever I'd just cheekily throw out a Shadow Ball on a few of them. That kinda requires them to perfectly read where I'm going to randomly throw out shadow ball to win the interaction. I think that's a lot to have to do for a supposed Gholdengo 'answer'

Ghold loses eventually, just recover if they get 2 sbs off, and if they get cheeky and stop NPing, keep in mind, you are much bulkier then you think, its not even a guaranteed 4HKO from an invested Ghold…
“252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Milotic: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 38.5% chance to 4HKO”
That means if you want, you can just let then get +4, then haze, and cleanly live a +0 SB and recover off the rest…

Unless they have covert cloak they lose to Scald burn chip, and if they are don’t have lefties, then they aren’t really a long term problem anyway. This is something that only really milotic can do tho, ghold excells as a defensive mon as well, and I wont be surprised if a flame orb Milotic or smth shows up specifically to beat stallbreaker Ghold (while also being a moth check) on stall builds.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Idk man if they clicked haze first turn I think i'd just keep clicking Nasty plot until they stopped clicking haze. Then if they tried to spam haze forever I'd just cheekily throw out a Shadow Ball on a few of them. That kinda requires them to perfectly read where I'm going to randomly throw out shadow ball to win the interaction. I think that's a lot to have to do for a supposed Gholdengo 'answer'

ok, but what are you gonna do if it chooses to mirror coat on the second turn of that interaction instead of hazing and your ghold gets smacked in its shiny expensive face by its own +4 shadow ball? what happens if you set up to +6, confidently click shadow ball thinking there's no way it can survive, then learn the hard way that the standard milotic set has a 62.5% chance to live that from full? what if the milotic user decided "hmm, i think i'll run something different today" and went for 224 spdef instead of the standard 140, which makes milotic always survive a +6 ghold shadow ball? what if it starts clicking scald while you're spamming nasty plots, forces you to go on the offense early or risk getting outdamaged/burnchipped, and mirror coats the incoming shadow ball? all milotic needs to do is win a single mirror coat 50/50 once your ghold has some boosts on it

for that matter, what are you gonna do if it's carrying dragon tail instead of haze and your gholdengo has suddenly been replaced by an iron moth that would much rather be anywhere else because it just burned its booster energy early?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

ok, but what are you gonna do if it chooses to mirror coat on the second turn of that interaction instead of hazing and your ghold gets smacked in its shiny expensive face by its own +4 shadow ball? what happens if you set up to +6, confidently click shadow ball thinking there's no way it can survive, then learn the hard way that the standard milotic set has a 62.5% chance to live that from full? what if the milotic user decided "hmm, i think i'll run something different today" and went for 224 spdef instead of the standard 140, which makes milotic always survive a +6 ghold shadow ball? what if it starts clicking scald while you're spamming nasty plots, forces you to go on the offense early or risk getting outdamaged/burnchipped, and mirror coats the incoming shadow ball? all milotic needs to do is win a single mirror coat 50/50 once your ghold has some boosts on it

for that matter, what are you gonna do if it's carrying dragon tail instead of haze and your gholdengo has suddenly been replaced by an iron moth that would much rather be anywhere else because it just burned its booster energy early?

That's the thing, this hypothetical doesn't factor in Milotic just, pressing scald

 

[Finchinator]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.

Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.

Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Sneasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).

Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.

I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.

 

[SDK03]

To me, may be the most broken Pokemon right now.

I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s necessarily the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.

Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.

Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Senasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).

Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.

I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.

Yeah, Sneasler is basically just brainless sweeper cheese incarnate atm. Unburden with a statline like that, 2 120 BP STAB moves and Dire Claw make it annoying as shit even without factoring Tera in, and Tera just introduces stupid mindgames to its sets. Even before Rillaboom’s comeback we had Air Balloon sets everywhere and more terrain abuse with Psyspam (And both variations still work), so it’s not like Sneasler’s power comes exclusively from Rillaboom.