Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[SittinGamer]

Not to say Gliscor counterplay is as simple as "Just Ice Beam lol", but there definitely are beamers who can fall into different squads that aren't bad, such as Milotic, Glowking, etc, and plenty more that can hit hard with only 2x water special attacks. It's not like it's a complete unviable type/move being brought to beat Gliscor. Tera is a thing, but we have Grassy Terrain up with a rather strong Wood Hammer on, what, 10% of teams?

 

[Cuddly]

I don't understand how can anyone not want to try Darkrai in OU. If it turns out to be broken it doesn't matter, at worst it will disappear quickly, but at least we will have concretely tested it. Yes he might be OP, but maybe not. We can't know in advance whether he will be OP or not in this meta, so it's worth seeing.
Just the fact that there is a huge debate out there with so many divergent opinions (many 1 and 5) is an argument that justifies checking a little.

Unlike the other 600 BST Ubers usually left in this tier (Shaymin-S, Deoxys, Marshadow...), Darkrai has been nerfed, but never tested in OU.

I personally think Darkrai would be fine, but I can see why people wouldn’t want it to drop. Back in Gen 5, Kyurem-Black was discussed to be fine for OU but was dropped with stuff like Lando-I and Torn-T (back when it was broken), causing a ton of chaos.


As a side note to not double post, I think the recent survey has shown that Smogon is filled with gambling addicts. That or they think forcing everyone to run Gliscor, Gholdengo, or Tera‘s Garganacl and keep them alive the entire game is perfectly fine.

 

[1234hjkl]

I hope terapagos will be allowed in OU.

Its based form looks so weak, how high could its stats possibly be on that form?

Look guys, pic related looks like a huge wimp, just how bad could it be?

Also my takes below.

My hot takes

1: Baxcalibur: It's too strong, getting Scale shot made it too strong.
Lando-I: This is not Darkrai, it got even better across the guns, no.
Oger-H: Too strong and that's even without Tera, no counters or checks unless you use Tran with the ability shield item and stuff like that is no better than AVest TTar against Naganadel.
Urshifu-SS: It's stab combo it's too good, stabs+Fairy Coverage and SD cleave through the whole tier and it has a very strong priority as well.
Zama-C: It's a better Zama, yes it's slower but it still faster than almost everything at OU and it's fatter if you hate Zama you will hate this even more.

Prolly not: Palafin: Too fast for something this strong, strong priority and it basically has everything it wants. Perhaps without Tera but even without it it might be too much.

Bloodmoon: Even without Tera it might be too much, it's very strong, has good bulk, not status dependant and has healing. It has too much going for it.

Sneasler: It's a better Hawlucha with cheering shenanigans included, nuff said.

Ok If Tera goes(3): Annihilape: Tera let's it gets away with too much, without it the mediocre defensive type makes it way more manageable.

R.Moon: It's typing is a very so-so and Tera made it too ridiculous, getting rid of his bad type while giving it a nuclear attack, it should not be able to pull a Uno card on Zama and Tusk on a drop of a hat.

Urshifu RS: It could be a little more manageable without Tera Water letting kill everything who isn't Donzo or WA Clodsire.

4: Volcarona: Match-Up Moth looks more manageable now, then again I could be wrong, still I would say unless it gets Scorching sand without Tera it would definitely not be broken.

Gliscor: Not broken, just reaaaaaaaaally annoying. I rather it not came back but I can see it here. Ban Dhengo, though.

5: Darkrai: It got smacked hard by the nerf-hammer, I think too many people are theorymoning too hard, same thing happened on Gen 7 when Greninja and M-Maw were unbanned or Gen 8 with Blaziken, yes they look very scary on paper but practice can be very different and from the practical side I am very unconvinced it's broken.

 

[MilkyWay]

I would like to see Bax drop and get another chance. People were clamoring for a ban cuz of the veil and scale shot buffs before that DLC even dropped. Plus screens HO is always spammed the first couple weeks of a new meta and like others have said Bax does have positive contributions. I don’t think it’ll last, but you never know.

The only mons I find too OP to even drop are magearna and blood moon (and maybe firepon). I’d also prefer not to see esparthra or sneasler, but that’s more cuz they are cheesy/match up fishes than OP. Volc kinda falls into this latter category too, but deserves to come back after that qb.

Darkrai is more likely to be UUBL than Ubers, but if I’m proven wrong I’ll come here an apologize after all the shit I’ve talked about it.

Selfishly I’d like to see Paladin cuz I didn’t start playing the new gen til after its ban lol. Same applies to bundle and flutter mane, but even on paper they look way too broken so I’d rather not see them drop.

I remember last gen we tested zama C instead of zama cuz everyone thought it was worse since it couldn’t hold an item. I get that the metas are different, but Zama C at least deserves a chance now, especially cuz everyone thought zama was broken (it missed a QB by one vote), yet later on the general consensus became that’s its balanced.

 

[Cuddly]

I remember last gen we tested zama C instead of zama cuz everyone thought it was worse since it couldn’t hold an item. I get that the metas are different, but Zama C at least deserves a chance now, especially cuz everyone thought zama was broken (it missed a QB by one vote), yet later on the general consensus became that’s its balanced.

Well back then, Zamazenta didn’t learn Body Press, which reversed which form was better. Crowned actually used its massive Def stat for something other than soaking up hits. Without Body Press the Hero form likely would be better because of item restrictions Crown has.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I know, just using it as an example where it is half decent and I don't want it to ruin OU, k?

Nah, it's terrible in Ubers UU. I know that tier is irrelevant for this discussion, but Darkrai wouldn't even be broken in Ubers RU if it existed (as Ubers RU has Arceus-Fighting, Iron Valiant, Scizor, Zamazenta, Arceus-Bug, Iron Hands, Hoopa-Unbound). It's likely broken in OU but borderline unviable outside of it.

 

[TheTraininator]

Well back then, Zamazenta didn’t learn Body Press, which reversed which form was better. Crowned actually used its massive Def stat for something other than soaking up hits. Without Body Press the Hero form likely would be better because of item restrictions Crown has.

Yeah, this is something huge that people miss. That and the nerfs to both Zam forms hit base Zama harder too; base Zama used to be an insane Band user with the 10 extra attack AND +1 defense on EVERY switchin, whereas with the inability to hold Band and lack of Body Press, Crowned was significantly more passive. Now the addition of Body Press makes Crowned less passive, and it’s better at abusing it than base Zama due to better defensive stats & Steel typing leading to Toxic immunity, easier setup, and stronger Body Presses. Additionally, base Zama doesn’t run Choice Band nearly as often anymore because it just does less damage than it used to and can’t switch in and out as consistently with the ability nerf.

 

[pika pal]

Doesn't it get future sight + teleport + recovery move? Even if it's trash by Ubers standards, it still has ubers statlines and that combination seems hard to handle. Ubers handles it by having great ghost and dark types like Marshadow, Lunala, and Yveltal. We don't have that many good ones in OU right now.

I don't think the issue with Solgaleo is that it wasn't good in Ubers in and of itself (gen 7 had Primal Groudon and Gen 8 had Calyrex/Yveltal everywhere to contend with) so much as the fact that Necrozma-Duskmane did 90% of its jobs better even without Ultra Burst, which made Solgaleo redundant for most teams if Necrozma was in the meta. Even ignoring OU's lower power level, Ubers is a bad metric for Solgaleo dropping simply because it doesn't have the Hungry Prism taking its place.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Yeah, this is something huge that people miss. That and the nerfs to both Zam forms hit base Zama harder too; base Zama used to be an insane Band user with the 10 extra attack AND +1 defense on EVERY switchin, whereas with the inability to hold Band and lack of Body Press, Crowned was significantly more passive. Now the addition of Body Press makes Crowned less passive, and it’s better at abusing it than base Zama due to better defensive stats & Steel typing leading to Toxic immunity, easier setup, and stronger Body Presses. Additionally, base Zama doesn’t run Choice Band nearly as often anymore because it just does less damage than it used to and can’t switch in and out as consistently with the ability nerf.

Zama-C also resists priority like Extremespeed, Grassy Glide, Bullet Punch and Ice Shard. Quite a relevant advantage in current meta

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta in Grassy Terrain: 224-264 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Grassy Terrain: 94-111 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Pretty handy against being revenge killed

 

[Heatranator]

Yooo, they updated the models once again. I know this has nothing to do with competitive, it just looks really weird seeing hisuian sprites when stuff like the paldean starters have sprites as well.

 

[YubelVT]

View attachment 578389
Yooo, they updated the models once again. I know this has nothing to do with competitive, it just looks really weird seeing hisuian sprites when stuff like the paldean starters have sprites as well.

oh my god hoodra has crippling back pain. free her from this torment

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Theres one guy in the whole game who kills gliscor in one special hit and its greninja who is lol greninja and everyone else gets toxiced and then switch and then god forbid you send in any passive defensive mon because gliscor will come in and heal to full while your guy gets put on a timer with hazards + poison. Gliscor killed every style aside from gliscor balance/semistall and HO that never gave it a chance to breath. Very polar and unfun metagame. Maybe if they bring back fini + bring bax back + give weavile his axle back then it will be bearable but gliscor made the meta so lame.

I really don't understand how one could arrive at the conclusion that there are more team structures possible now than while Gliscor was in the tier. Gliscor single-handedly made Balance and Stall reall archetypes, and like you said, HO was much stronger then than it is now too. Banning Gliscor plummeted us into the mire of Grassy Terrain teams, and once the Sneasler problem was dealt with, now Ting-Lu Zapdos hazard stack is king, and you can use Rillacringe Offense teams with Stored Power and Heatran to great effect as well, and not much else. I completely agree that Gliscor's ban made several Pokémon more viable, making teams FEEL more diverse, but once you realize that now we're stuck into one and a half dominating playstyle things start to look a lot more one-note. During the Gliscor era you could even still make creative Pokémon choices such as Milotic, Weezing-G, Mandibuzz... now we have just as much spikes as the Gliscor era but with much more linear gameplay, and everyone just spams Thunder Wave and switch into contact abilities all day. Don't even bother running anything else because Waterpon and Gholdendouche will just smash you.

Any number of additions to the tier could make Gliscor significantly more palatable, a fast Ice Beamer in Darkrai, a powerful ice attacker like Bax, a water-type that can hit through protect in Rapid Strike, the already-confirmed Triple Axel Weavile (which we know we are getting,) the raw power of Roaring Moon, a Toxic-immune spinner like Excadrill... we can repeat "ban everything until Gliscor is broken" again but hopefully we don't have to ban the one Pokémon that makes balance and stall meta this time.

 

[tommytt22]

sidestepping from all the survey recaps, I think what I would like to see is a list of all the bans and specifically the reasons they were banned (for example, espathra was solely banned for tera, bloodmoon was a combination of tera, stats and movepool) I know we all make our own minds up about things but listing out the specific factors would be helpful for reference and that way people can just refer to that thread or list rather than getting into arguments about past bans. And for a situation like this where we face unbanning a number of pokemon, It would give a lot of clarity and keep people on track. Certainly for myself I was a lot more active in certain suspect tests than others so my memory can be hazy on why some pokemon warranted being banned in the first place.

Anyone who didn't play for the 2 weeks after gliscor got banned could be forgiven for wondering why sneasler was quickbanned. There's a lot of metagame context that gets lost in memory. This will also help simplify that unbanning process when/if any tera action happens

 

[tommytt22]

I really don't understand how one could arrive at the conclusion that there are more team structures possible now than while Gliscor was in the tier. Gliscor single-handedly made Balance and Stall reall archetypes, and like you said, HO was much stronger then than it is now too. Banning Gliscor plummeted us into the mire of Grassy Terrain teams, and once the Sneasler problem was dealt with, now Ting-Lu Zapdos hazard stack is king, and you can use Rillacringe Offense teams with Stored Power and Heatran to great effect as well, and not much else. I completely agree that Gliscor's ban made several Pokémon more viable, making teams FEEL more diverse, but once you realize that now we're stuck into one and a half dominating playstyle things start to look a lot more one-note. During the Gliscor era you could even still make creative Pokémon choices such as Milotic, Weezing-G, Mandibuzz... now we have just as much spikes as the Gliscor era but with much more linear gameplay, and everyone just spams Thunder Wave and switch into contact abilities all day. Don't even bother running anything else because Waterpon and Gholdendouche will just smash you.

Any number of additions to the tier could make Gliscor significantly more palatable, a fast Ice Beamer in Darkrai, a powerful ice attacker like Bax, a water-type that can hit through protect in Rapid Strike, the already-confirmed Triple Axel Weavile (which we know we are getting,) the raw power of Roaring Moon, a Toxic-immune spinner like Excadrill... we can repeat "ban everything until Gliscor is broken" again but hopefully we don't have to ban the one Pokémon that makes balance and stall meta this time.

I said this shit all through the gliscor suspect... as long as gholdenboy exists hazards will be rampant, it's the same as pre dlc1. But armed with this knowledge, gliscor will likely come back in dlc2 and maybe this time it won't be the one on the chopping block.

 

[Shinto7654]

“It beats things I don’t like” by itself is not a sufficient enough reason to unban something. This isn’t to say that there isn’t value into adding additional checks or counters to certain Pokémon, but you have to evaluate the impact of the Pokémon in question BEYOND what it beats. Who cares that Baxcalibur keeps Roaring Moon in check if it’s twice as bad as Roaring Moon ever was?

I mean, ian's only arguments ever are "this thing beat my team, so ban it because of that + I hate facing it", which is especially obvious when they go on tangents about how Stored Power is super banworthy because they got swept by it lol

 

[fart goblin]

1 Nope unless tera is nuked.

literally every single aspect of this absolute demon is overtuned to the nth degree to the point where it doesnt even give a shit about terastalizing even WITH what's basically gen 8 intrepid sword because mold breaker is the perfect ability it could have asked for. like the guy before said, it'd honestly become even better without tera in the tier since its "checks" lose their get-out-of-jail-free card to a swords dance boosted base 154 attack ivy cudgel/power whip. there is no form of ou where this thing is ever even remotely healthy

 

[658Greninja]

I really don't understand how one could arrive at the conclusion that there are more team structures possible now than while Gliscor was in the tier. Gliscor single-handedly made Balance and Stall reall archetypes, and like you said, HO was much stronger then than it is now too. Banning Gliscor plummeted us into the mire of Grassy Terrain teams, and once the Sneasler problem was dealt with, now Ting-Lu Zapdos hazard stack is king, and you can use Rillacringe Offense teams with Stored Power and Heatran to great effect as well, and not much else. I completely agree that Gliscor's ban made several Pokémon more viable, making teams FEEL more diverse, but once you realize that now we're stuck into one and a half dominating playstyle things start to look a lot more one-note. During the Gliscor era you could even still make creative Pokémon choices such as Milotic, Weezing-G, Mandibuzz... now we have just as much spikes as the Gliscor era but with much more linear gameplay, and everyone just spams Thunder Wave and switch into contact abilities all day. Don't even bother running anything else because Waterpon and Gholdendouche will just smash you.

Any number of additions to the tier could make Gliscor significantly more palatable, a fast Ice Beamer in Darkrai, a powerful ice attacker like Bax, a water-type that can hit through protect in Rapid Strike, the already-confirmed Triple Axel Weavile (which we know we are getting,) the raw power of Roaring Moon, a Toxic-immune spinner like Excadrill... we can repeat "ban everything until Gliscor is broken" again but hopefully we don't have to ban the one Pokémon that makes balance and stall meta this time.

Disagree.

I am a broken record, but nothing is comparable to how effortlessly Gliscor made progress and how difficult it is to deny it. Every common spike setter we have either lacks longevity or is frail, or both.

We’re complaining about Spikes now, but at least Tusk could 1v1 the top spike setters minus Wogre. Plus since they all lack longevity, you could outlast them throughout a game and remove the hazards afterwards. In Gliscor’s meta, it doesn’t matter what you do, its getting hazards up. Tusk gets Toxic, Cinderace doesn’t do shit, and Corv was laid off of defog duties cause of Ghold. Nothing could safely switch into Gliscor except Clef and other Gliscors. It doesn’t matter if you have a HDB Weavile or a hypothetical Bax, Gliscor is gonna outlast them throughout a battle, and it’s not staying in on the obvious ice type. There were only two successful team styles during Gliscor meta, HO, and Boots Spam. At least in the Zapdos/Glowking/Ting-Lu meta, you could mix up your options because Tusk/Cinder is more reliable as a hazard remover without Gliscor.

G-Weez, Milo, and Mandi are perfectly viable in a Gliscor-less meta. We don’t need Gliscor to restore balance in the tier, we need to get Gholdengo the fuck out.

Until we have Gen 8’s hazard removal options, Ghold is gonna keep the tier into a chokehold. Not just to make removing hazards easier, but also for flexible teambuilding options.

Look at Amoonguss. It checks half the tier by itself. Right off the bat, Zamazenta, Valiant, Wogre, Tusk, Samu, Rilla, even Dnite.

Look at Corv who could serve as both a slow pivot, a physical wall, and a splashable defogger.

Even though they’re still good, they have one major problem, Ghold completely walls them.

Some more unique teambuilding options like Mandi who is a Ghost resist that can Defog. G-Weez who could switch between Neutralizing Gas and Levitate.

Banning Ghold would be more benefical to the meta than keeping Gliscor. Cause some Gliscor teams didn’t even bother running Ghold cause it is that good at keeping hazards up. This was literally the best Spike setter in SV OU and the best Spike setter of all time.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I mean, ian's only arguments ever are "this thing beat my team, so ban it because of that + I hate facing it", which is especially obvious when they go on tangents about how Stored Power is super banworthy because they got swept by it lol

Don't pretend you people are any different complaining about Kingambit every 5 minutes

Me making a salty post about stored power that was slightly less rational than my usual posts does not make it any less of a cheese strategy or any more enjoyable to face against

 

[UnusualBoy]

The way some of you want Darkrai running around in OU when the DLC will also bring more mess to the tier.

And let me not get into the people who want Giratina, Lugia or Solgaleo cuz boy…

 

[fart goblin]

oh right, unban survey. heres my two cents from the perspective of a complete nobody whos fallen off the tier after dlc1:

1 - NO
"What if Kyurem-Black had access to Earthquake, a 120 base power Dragon-type move that isn't Outrage and was also immune to burns for some reason?" - the deranged ramblings of a psychopath
something something definition of insanity
okay, realistically speaking this probably will get more answers to it in dlc2 but i do not respect this mon on a personal level so no thanks
cocaine bear's fucked up cousin, black tar heroin bear. Why Does This Get Vacuum Wave
(see above)

2- I Mean, Sure, If You Want To
you know what? fuck it. test this. i doubt itll be remotely balanced but theres theoretically more answers to it now and the early pre-home metagame was messy and not prepared for this at all. thats not to say this meta is either and it probably still isnt but i mean couldnt hurt to try for like, a day. also, what? why isn't this in uubers? who is spamming this shit in ubers
still think this things stat spread is horrifying and a testament to the genius level balancing at game freak but real talk what the fuck was that discussion about this being the same as rillaboom earlier? yeah they both have 120 bp recoil moves and a stab 60-70-ish priority move but they are not even remotely the same in practice lol what are you talking about
WAITER! WAITER! MORE HEATRANS PLEASE

3 - youtu.be/ussCHoQttyQ
:urshifubutblue: these are kind of in the same boat for me personally. they're really not that busted compared to what else has gotten banned throughout the generation, but swords dance just propels them to absurd levels of power that i'm not all too certain they'll be all too fine in the long run. honestly id slightly prefer if single strike was given a chance this time around since it was instantly banned due to IoA trauma
same as regular zama except way bulkier, steel type, and it cant run an item. cool, i guess? i dont know, man. one time i was playing uubers and this fucking thing lived a rain-boosted hydro pump from my palkia-o at ~80% and that interaction haunts me to this day

4 - I'm Already Tired Of Writing This Post
I put in 4 and not 5 because the Acrobatics set is still and always will be bullshit. Definitely deserves a second chance because I have a gut feeling power creep is going to fuck this thing over somehow.

5 - Come On They're Just Little Guys
just ice beam it bro. what do you mean "facilitates an unhealthy playstyle with how easily it can set hazards and keep them on the field when paired with gholdengo" just 0 SpA Slowking-Galar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 360-424 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO bro its okay i swear
PLEASE GOD FREE THIS THING SO THE PEOPLE BEGGING FOR IT CAN STOP BRINGING IT UP EVERY OTHER DAY

What Else Should Be Freed?
regular kyurem and genesect if it ends up losing a ton of moves :)

Other Thoughts
gholdengo needs to gholden GO
side tangent: if tapu koko ends up coming back, do you think it'll make iron valiant busted? i mean, being able to run a choice set (or god forbid, life orb) while also getting the speed boost from terrain is a big deal. i dunno. could be nothing serious in the end, but it's worth thinking about.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

“It beats things I don’t like” by itself is not a sufficient enough reason to unban something. This isn’t to say that there isn’t value into adding additional checks or counters to certain Pokémon, but you have to evaluate the impact of the Pokémon in question BEYOND what it beats. Who cares that Baxcalibur keeps Roaring Moon in check if it’s twice as bad as Roaring Moon ever was?

I've received a couple condescending replies to my post about Baxcalibur so I want to clarify my language and also expand on my thoughts about how a few certain users are choosing to conduct themselves in the discussion around DLC drops. I did not intend for my comment to be read as "Baxcalibur should not have been banned the first time, hopefully it is not unfairly banned again this time." I think (and two of the greatest OU players, blunder and CTC, also put this thought forward recently,) that the Baxcalibur quickban week 1 did not allow for enough time to see if Veil would stick around as a playstyle before a Pokémon that's been part of the game since launch was nuked. A two week suspect would have put the matter to bed as it did for Walking Wake, in the same way it did for the many threats that have been banned via suspect. I want to also be very clear that Baxcalibur likely is still not an appropriate Pokémon for OU as it currently stands, and it's very possible that will continue to be the case next week. But we have no way of knowing what the climate of DLC2 will be like, other than educated guesses and revealed information that seems to show the climate will be very different. I want to clarify that "it's a shame it got banned" was intended to convey "I wish the positive aspects this Pokémon brought were still part of the meta and it's a shame that the negative aspects were too overwhelming."

I also think it's worth bringing up a few users have chosen to shame people and demean their intelligence for believing that certain previously tested Pokémon might not be a problem in a new metagame, and seem to believe that not even wanting to test a Pokémon makes them more rational than those who want to see more tests. Not only are there users acting like giving a Pokémon a high score on this survey means "I am confident this Pokémon would be ok in the tier" rather than "I am unsure and would like to see it in action," but please understand we literally Do Not Know what is dropping and what's changing, and overall I believe it is better to approach this with an open mind rather than a closed one. Every banned Pokémon brought SOMETHING to the tier, and there is no guarantee that a Pokémon that WAS broken will continue to be. And even if it is I believe it's better to say "we tried and now we know for sure." However "you are crazy for wanting to try this" seems to be a very popular sentiment here, as if it's not going to take a week or two at the very most to deal with the really messy stuff.

 

[KamenOH]

Let me be real

"What does XYZ bring to the tier" is about the stupidest point one can make that isn't relevant to solely one specific mon. It implies that we keep things OU not because they aren't determined to be broken, but rather because of an overarching design in what we want the metagame to look like. As far as I'm aware, we don't tier based on vibes, but if that's changed since we banned Naganadel, do let me know.
Usage, the value itself not important whether it be 3.5% or 4.6% or something else entirely, determines if something rises or drops, and unless it's a fucking monster in one tier and utter shit in the tier above it, we don't change what tier it is unless its usage warrants us to. When it is that unique case, we vote on if it should be banned, and if it's voted out, we don't make it the tier above just because, but stick it on the banlist, like reasonable people, by considering whether or not it's real uncompetitive, be its ability to OHKO fucking Blissey with a special attack, or its ability to 6-0 a team weak to it, or the move in question making the opponent's attacks never hit, ever. Yeah I'm a little salty about Kyurem's ban.
At no point did we, or should we, ask what the thing in question brings to the tier. It's a question that implies that the thing isn't broken, but rather just undesirable to some vocal people, because its never asked as a first question. It's always a last resort, asked so that whatever the answer may be, the asker can say that, "the things it brings are covered by mons in the meta already," to paraphrase. Such an answer implies that not only can we have one single way to do those things, but also that the mon being asked about is assumed broken from the get go. This isn't to imply that we should think of literally everything as Not-Broken from the start, because believe me some things are just too much even for Ubers, much less here, but rather that we shouldn't jump the gun and keep things banned because they were banned once before.
Who gives a shit what Blaziken brought to Gen 8 OU, when it wasn't even good enough to end the generation in OU? It ended in UUBL I had to check.
Point is, actually argue on whether or not something is broken, rather than waffle on about how, "oh it doesnt matter what volcarona brings since its defensive utility is covered by other things, wheh."

P.S. how the fuck do i change my name dynamax isnt even a thing anymore

Edit: thanks kosecant

 

[TheTraininator]

snip

This is a fair statement and I just want to clarify that if my particular statement came across as saying anyone who thinks Bax should be unbanned is crazy, then I apologize for it wasn’t my intention, (though I don’t mean to suggest that you’re trying to insinuate that about me either). I think it’s good to evaluate a Pokémon’s impact on a metagame in depth, both in terms of what it restricts/pressures and what it enables/strengthens. I just PERSONALLY think that Baxcalibur is one of the most unhealthy things on the whole list for how ridiculously consistent and broken it is when enabled by Veil + Snow, and I don’t think that aspect of it will change no matter what the metagame throws at us.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Joke Survey response:
5s on everything, unban everything, including ubers and let the tier suffer to figure it out.

Real response: I'd say don't unban anything until after the inevitable post-DLC2 tera test. Don't allow anything that could possibly inhibit the tera test.
You have the power to free or re-suspect any and all of these whatnots at a later date.
Don't waste valuable time unbanning anything. Leave it all up there until after the Tera Suspect.

That's all I got. Not going to waste more time conversing or explaining my thoughts, nor do I want to read the other 50 pages of content I've ignored over the past like... two weeks?

Yeah, take care be well happy holidays!

 

[Srn]

I am going to state the perhaps controversial opinion that this meta has actually improved with every ban we have done!

Don't get me wrong, zap/ting/glow meta is awful too. But for all the reasons that have been stated in every suspect thread up until this point, pokemon like Roaring Moon, Gliscor, and Sneasler made this meta worse, and it is better now without them. For every defense of how "Roaring moon had healthy adaptations" and "Gliscor wasn't that bad!" that I hear, I can come up with twice as much counterplay to zap/ting/glow cores and manaphy/waterpon/rillaboom/zamazenta/etc. Not to say that all of these mons should remain in the tier, but they are not as bad as everything we've banned!

The reason we've ended up at zap/ting/glow meta twice is because the timing of DLC drops prevent is from developing further each time. I will GLADLY vote to ban every stupid mon in the survey, reach the same zap/ting/glow meta again (and I'm sure we'll have even more balanced tools to break this core), and I will GLADLY vote to ban more mons to improve the zap/ting/glow meta further. From a teambuilding perspective, I feel much more freedom now than I did a month ago, and I wish that progress could've continued.

Just keep in mind that pokemon like Bax absolutely deserved to be booted from this tier within a week. 4.64/5 on survey and unanimous ban votes from council mean to me that this pokemon did NOT deserve any more time in OU than it got. Don't be so tilted over zap/ting/glow cores that you would drop this stupid monster. Bax is just one example, don't forget how much support there was to quickban mons like sneasler, how many voters wanted to get rid of Roaring Moon and Ursaluna-BloodMoon. I firmly believe the path forward to a better meta lies with MORE bans, not less, and no unbans.