Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[YNM]

So I guess that Darkrai will indeed likely end up getting unbanned, uh. I strongly believe that it has no place in the OU tier and that it will get banned regardless after a month or so, but as Finch said the community did show a significant amount of support for its unban/test, so it is fair to give it a chance I guess. Regarding the other mons:

• - As long as this mon has access to SD/DD + Scale Shot, Burn immunity and Tera, it's always gonna feel broken. It kinda reminds me of a KyuB-light, and that's saying a lot considering how busted that thing was/would be in OU.
• - I'll never get tired of saying this shit, but this thing should NEVER be allowed in OU as long as Gholdengo remains legal. Unless we get some really, really good Defoggers in the upcoming DLC, this mon is gonna end up getting banned once more. The Gliscor-centric meta we had a couple of months ago was one of the most toxic (pun intended) competitive scenes ever, but at the very least New Toy Syndrome + all of the other broken shit that are going to inevitably appear in the tier following DLC2 should be enough to keep Gliscor in check for a bit.
• - I believe that the main breaking factor for this mon is honestly just Tera, so if the latter gets banned Moon deserves to remain legal. Apart from that, I'm ok with giving it one more chance considering that we might have a couple answers to it, but I'm still not completely sold.
• - No.
• - I still think that Urshifu with SD is just way too broken for the tier, especially considering that you can't even scout its set with Protect.
• - It was a controversial ban back then, and now we definitely should consider retesting this mon in OU. While Tera does indeed make it a bit too strong, I don't think that it's gonna end up being too overwhelming with all the new mons/strategies we have available.
• - Even though I'm still against the presence of Zama-H in OU, I actually feel like this thing might actually be worse than it. With no access to any item, you can really only use the ID+Body Press set, so at the very least it is way more predictable than its naked variant. It can be chipped by Hazards more consistently, it has no recovery from Lefties (so running Substitute can actually hurt it), it can't surprise you with a Banded/Scarfed set and it also has more significant weaknesses than Zamazenta-Hero.

well, on the topic of unbanning ubers, I've got a pile more to suggest dropping:
: It just can't do anything to defensive pokemon, anything that is immune to toxic will just straight up beat it, especially with reduced roost pp. If it gets defog back it can be a good defogger, which we are in desperate need of
and : crippled by their 4x ghost and dark weakness in a metagame where ghosts and darks make up 2 of the three most used pokemon in the tier. DW has no way to boost its paltry base 77 speed, limiting its offensive presense, while Lunala has less power meaning its wallbreaking isn't that strong
:It's just great tusk, but worse hp and loses rapid spin to boost its speed. It could also enable some sun structures to become viable again, meaning the metagame has one more viable team structure, which is good. Inaccurate ground stab sucks.
: It's dondozo minus the unaware and the great defensive typing. Defensive sets will be a great defogger that can beat gholdengo force gholdengo to go spdef. Offensive sets might seem scary until you remember that it has 5 very common weaknesses and few good resistances, which, in conjunction with its lack of a pdef boosting move, leaves it vulnerable to those aforementioned darks and ghosts.
: 125 attack is not the best in this meta, and 125 speed, while still good, is apparently "slow" for fellow uber darkrai. Physical ghost STAB is a lot less valuable in the generation where everything can get physical ghost stab if they so desire with Tera Blast. In addition, its typing leaves it vulnerable to premier revenge killing option(s) valiant, which isn't even ko'd by band technician sneak, and Pult.
(NOT , just the regular form): 100 attack is just bad now, and with the rise of universal counterplay (i.e. encore) you have ways of checking setup sets that don't require having a typing advantage. Similar to kingambit. It's also kinda slow, needing 2 dragon dances to outrun BE valiant.
:thank you for the kind suggestion apoteosis, I did neglect solgaleo in my clearly very serious post. Solgaleo struggles with having a mediocre defensive type for a defensive pokemon and having bad offensive type for an offensive pokemon. It also doesn't have any setup, which means it does no job very well. Furthermore, its utility options are lacking so much, it doesn't even have stealth rock! I fully expect it to drop to UU if we can get it dropped.
: Gets completely folded by any defensive steels, including gholdengo, who is very good. Defensive sets have no reliable recovery, and the rocks resistance is less relevant now that the main hazard is spikes. You can't use him as a check to dragons because he is chunked so hard by all the dragon moves. For example, specs pult 2HKOs offensive sets with both draco and shadow ball, while spdef dialga can only ever switch into draco once, because it gets 2HKO'd.

If anyone disagrees with this, they must be either trolling or completely stupid, because there's no way I made any mistakes whatsoever in judging these pokemon's viability.

With all due respect my brother, you are fucking crazy.

 

[Cheryl.]

I am up for experimenting a Solgaleo drop but it’s a bit awkward/risky to include it on an unban survey and slate when we have literally no idea what it’s movepool would be, whether it’s buffed or nerfed. With something like Darkrai, we’ve had time with it for the past few months and know it’s shtick. Hopefully we can give a chance to Solgaleo down the line although I doubt it as the tier will probably be embroiled in another endless tiering spree trying to fix the meta (hopefully it works this time around!)

 

[Just A Shroom God]

With all due respect my brother, you are fucking crazy.

Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a forum. An OU forum. An OU forum with Darkrai discussion. Darkrai makes me crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once.

 

[DartTamarin519]

The Chi Yu comparison of course was a bit hyperbolic, and as I said before, Baxcalibur not being broken enough to be banned would be very nice to deal with Rillaboom (as well as keep Gliscor and RMoon in check) but that's not necessarily me saying it shouldn't be banned. But I do detest Rillaboom, because:

-I find it very difficult to switch into, between the fact that Wood Hammer hits Pokémon that resist it (most notably in my experience Torn-T and Talonflame) extremely hard, Glide (though relatively low on the list of what issues I have with it) has priority and 2hkos a huge list of Pokémon, and crucially the fact that it has Knock Off, which makes (especially for someone who primarily plays stall) Rillaboom extremely risky to pivot around because losing your Boots is a death sentence in this Spikes based meta.

-If you do manage a relatively safe switch into it there's a chance it will instead choose to simply U-Turn out and make you go through that Sophie's Choice again, putting you at risk for more huge chip, a KO, or lost boots again and again

-Contact abilities, especially Flame Body, are pretty good (maybe even best) counterplay but these tend to be on Pokémon that really don't want to lose their boots due to rocks weakness

-Not only does Grassy Terrain make Rillaboom's Grass moves ludicrously powerful, it also offsets damage you do to it, prolonging the frustration it brings

-This Grassy Terrain also opens the door to a huge list of frustrating Pokémon, sets, and strategies that are generally difficult or frustrating to deal with, such as Heatran with more passive recovery, Ursaluna with offset burn chip (not a huge issue vs many teams but definitely stall,) Stored Power sweeps most notably on Pokémon like Hatterene (who also can be frustrating without stored power due to magic bounce + psyshock) as well as Manaphy, most of these Pokémon also using Grassy Seed for an extra boost and to be more difficult to wear down.

-Grassy Seed on other Pokémon, not just stored power users, (mostly Pokémon that don't care much about their item) is very powerful and a boon to virtually every setup sweeper (people are running it on Ghold now!)

-Not a factor anymore but also was step one of the Cheeseler sweep (people are using Hawlucha for this now but I've yet to encounter this so no strong opinion there) and made Bloodmoon more difficult to deal with by increasing its passive healing

-Grassy Terrain disallows many Pokémon from running or using Earthquake and empowers Steel types such as Kingambit and Gholdengo on Rillaboom's side a great deal

-Overall, the huge power of both Rillaboom and its Grassy Terrain benefactor friends is very stifling to respond to both in the builder and in battle. As much as I hate Rillaboom, I hate what it enables even more, and I hate what it's historically enabled but can't anymore the very most. If it didn't have Knock Off it would be a lot better but being able to not only do all this but steal items away makes it my most hated piece of both this meta and Ubers UU.



What kind of stall team are you building that does not feature Dondozo and Alomomola? And why is it that when I use Pokémon that resist grass such as Torn-T that I get hit with a guaranteed 2HKO?

The stall player complaining about a stall breaker. Hmmm. To bad that Rillaboom's weakness don't really exist on stall. I'm assuming you are running corviknight? Which is probably just getting knocked and then uturned forever? Banded, adamant, terrain boosted, Rillaboom, wood-hammers are one of the strongest physical moves in Gen 9. Tied with Banded, adamant, reckless, high jump kicks from Mienshao. Just a fun fact!

 

[658Greninja]

The broken mons you mention have 1 broken set that allows it to Sweep or OHKO everything. You don't sweep with 97 Speed and awkward Steel/Psychic Stabs, 113 Sp Atk isn't that high either.

Idk man, base 113 SpA with a decent enough special coverage pool of Tbolt, Focus Blast, and Flamethrower is still quite good.

Zamazenta runs three sets, ID + BP, 4-Attacks Boots, and the occasional Choice Band. I say occasional cause being locked into fighting stab in a tier full of bulky resists is bad. Guess what, they are all physical.

But Solgaleo has the choice to run physical, special, and mixed. That’s the main difference you aren't getting.

Considering most of its “checks” are physical walls like Dozo, Zapdos, Molt, and Mola, 113 SpA is enough, and it could run LO if it wants because it has reliable recovery + SR resistance.

Look at these calcs for yourself

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 261-308 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 199-235 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 153-183 (39.8 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And it could run Tbolt for Molt + Corv

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 216-255 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 213-252 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

They switch in to Solgaleo and do what? Dozo doesn’t even 3HKO it, defensive Zapdos is outsped and can’t hurt this bulky ass lion. It’s forced to Roost because it has other things it is tasked to check.

I don’t know why you want Solgaleo in the tier so badly.

 

[Welcome to mars]

-- Unban

-- Unban

-- Unban

LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO THEY’RE HOME

-- Do not unban

abit disappointing (yeah im odd) but 100% logical in the grand scheme of things

well, on the topic of unbanning ubers, I've got a pile more to suggest dropping:
: It just can't do anything to defensive pokemon, anything that is immune to toxic will just straight up beat it, especially with reduced roost pp. If it gets defog back it can be a good defogger, which we are in desperate need of
and : crippled by their 4x ghost and dark weakness in a metagame where ghosts and darks make up 2 of the three most used pokemon in the tier. DW has no way to boost its paltry base 77 speed, limiting its offensive presense, while Lunala has less power meaning its wallbreaking isn't that strong
:It's just great tusk, but worse hp and loses rapid spin to boost its speed. It could also enable some sun structures to become viable again, meaning the metagame has one more viable team structure, which is good. Inaccurate ground stab sucks.
: It's dondozo minus the unaware and the great defensive typing. Defensive sets will be a great defogger that can beat gholdengo force gholdengo to go spdef. Offensive sets might seem scary until you remember that it has 5 very common weaknesses and few good resistances, which, in conjunction with its lack of a pdef boosting move, leaves it vulnerable to those aforementioned darks and ghosts.
: 125 attack is not the best in this meta, and 125 speed, while still good, is apparently "slow" for fellow uber darkrai. Physical ghost STAB is a lot less valuable in the generation where everything can get physical ghost stab if they so desire with Tera Blast. In addition, its typing leaves it vulnerable to premier revenge killing option(s) valiant, which isn't even ko'd by band technician sneak, and Pult.
(NOT , just the regular form): 100 attack is just bad now, and with the rise of universal counterplay (i.e. encore) you have ways of checking setup sets that don't require having a typing advantage. Similar to kingambit. It's also kinda slow, needing 2 dragon dances to outrun BE valiant.
:thank you for the kind suggestion apoteosis, I did neglect solgaleo in my clearly very serious post. Solgaleo struggles with having a mediocre defensive type for a defensive pokemon and having bad offensive type for an offensive pokemon. It also doesn't have any setup, which means it does no job very well. Furthermore, its utility options are lacking so much, it doesn't even have stealth rock! I fully expect it to drop to UU if we can get it dropped.
: Gets completely folded by any defensive steels, including gholdengo, who is very good. Defensive sets have no reliable recovery, and the rocks resistance is less relevant now that the main hazard is spikes. You can't use him as a check to dragons because he is chunked so hard by all the dragon moves. For example, specs pult 2HKOs offensive sets with both draco and shadow ball, while spdef dialga can only ever switch into draco once, because it gets 2HKO'd.

If anyone disagrees with this, they must be either trolling or completely stupid, because there's no way I made any mistakes whatsoever in judging these pokemon's viability.

you forgot that this clearly needs to be retested

 

[redninjapuffle]

Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a forum. An OU forum. An OU forum with Darkrai discussion. Darkrai makes me crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once.

The OU forums are finally breaking people’s minds
I don’t have much else to add other than to say i agree with most of finch’s statements besides Darkrai

 

[ausma]

please no. this thing is running rampant in uubers. the only thing that actually reliably beats it is dondozo because it turns out that ground tera blast is horrifyingly good coverage on fairy-types.

i feel like dropping zamazenta, although ultimately the right move, has set a bad precedent where everything that's bad in ubers is now subject to discussion about drops despite them being ridiculous by ou standards. worse, people also seem to be conflating "directly outclassed in ubers" with "bad in ubers". yes, zacian is never used in ubers because zacian-crowned is a direct upgrade. yes, no one uses solgaleo because dusk mane is better in every desirable way. that doesn't make them acceptable in ou and the fact that box legendaries are entering into the discussion this frequently is troubling

Although this post was in the context of Zacian (I questioned my sanity briefly) I think the sentiment of it applies quite heavily to this whole unbanning discussion where people are suggesting to bring things to OU simply because of one or two weaknesses, even if they’re reasonably large ones.

The fact that box legendaries are consistently entering the discussion here is a problem imo, and I think misses part of the reason that they should remain banned even in the hypothetical case that they wouldn’t be as broken as some other things we’ve banned. We will prioritize balance and competitiveness above all else, and many of these Pokemon (including Solgaleo imo) would upset balance by bringing further centralization to a tier already quite run by it.

Our voting list is finalized and we won’t be revisiting this topic at least for a while after our votes are in. Thanks to everybody for their suggestions and ideas, but also do consider where they’re coming from.

 

[Elec-ant1234]

I will say to those who have no idea why solgaleo was considered, and think of it's supporters as insane;
It was considered because it was the "weakest" uber that we could think of, and one that was considered as "close" to OU's power level.
ofc it would absolutely run rampant and suck to fight against so ofc it was denied immediately

 

[Ibaragi]

ok, my reading comprehension apparently sucks because I thought Finch was posting the results of the council's talks, and not just his individual opinion (hence why I wrote my response on the assumption that Gliscor, Zama-C and Darkrai were all comfirmed to be unbanned). In hindsight, I don't know how I could think they'd have talked it out and voted in such a short time-span, but oh well.

Will add to my previous post then an opinion on the others. Will also add what I gave them on the survey, although I didn't write it down so may misremember some numbers.

(2): While on his own he's just a really good mon and not really broken, the snow rework, the ease of access to Aurora Veil, the difficulty of removing it once it's up and his immunity to alternative forms of stopping him (Burn) make it way too easy to setup, and then he's unstoppable by anything not called Dondozo, and even that is breakable with Tera. I do believe it's closer than we believe to being ok, as it can't break past Zamazenta without dying first, requires some degree of support and is yet another set-up sweeper that can be stopped/challenged by Unaware mons. But we'd still need something new from DLC2 to properly keep it in check, making me believe he shouldn't return and maybe should only explore a suspect test to drop it later in the future if anything changes.

(4): he was imprisoned for crimes that weren't his own. We had options to keep it in check, but we couldn't run them because defensive play as a whole sucked too much. I personally voted Ban on his suspect, but did so on the conviction that he deserved to be retested in the future and unless DLC2 makes defensive play even more constrained or buffs him in anyway, I think he'll be OK. Maybe.

(2): Unburden speed-tier with terrain enabling abuse of Seed strategies not only was broken just recently, it might only get better past this point if the Tapus return. Effectively needing one turn to get +2 Atk, +2 Speed and +1 Def OR SpD while sporting such ridiculous base offensive stats is, well, ridiculous. The fact that the few mons that may have some way to stop and counter this can easily fall to Dire Claw's bs is salt on the wound. My hatred for this mon makes me want to give it a 1, and definitely shouldn't return, but I gave it a 2 to give further emphasis on how bad I think "1" mons are.

(1 Dark, 2 Water): Too much power for too little cost. Choice options are ridiculously pressing, and expecting them and reacting to them leaves you open to SD variants that will outright clean you up. Dark Strike is as bonkers as ever, Crit bonus damage has close to no way of being stopped or minimized and even goes through ID, which has become a popular and almost necessary move on many defensive mons to counter-setup setup-sweepers. Water is not much better and neither should return. But Dark is specially bad.

(5): I think this was my only 5. Still has plenty of opportunities to setup, and while you can answer it even at +1, the second layer of having to play "guess the Tera" may make it too much for the tier anyway. But that's a big maybe; definitely deserves a second chance and is the one mon that doesn't make me just say "keep them all banned".

FTR, the scores of the three I treated on my previous post were Gliscor (3), Zama-C (1), Darkrai (2).

 

[TR_Admin]

Idk man, base 113 SpA with a decent enough special coverage pool of Tbolt, Focus Blast, and Flamethrower is still quite good.

Zamazenta runs three sets, ID + BP, 4-Attacks Boots, and the occasional Choice Band. I say occasional cause being locked into fighting stab in a tier full of bulky resists is bad. Guess what, they are all physical.

But Solgaleo has the choice to run physical, special, and mixed. That’s the main difference you aren't getting.

Considering most of its “checks” are physical walls like Dozo, Zapdos, Molt, and Mola, 113 SpA is enough, and it could run LO if it wants because it has reliable recovery + SR resistance.

Look at these calcs for yourself

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 261-308 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 199-235 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 153-183 (39.8 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And it could run Tbolt for Molt + Corv

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 216-255 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 213-252 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

They switch in to Solgaleo and do what? Dozo doesn’t even 3HKO it, defensive Zapdos is outsped and can’t hurt this bulky ass lion. It’s forced to Roost because it has other things it is tasked to check.

I don’t know why you want Solgaleo in the tier so badly.

Fine, I'll admit it.
I am part of BigTrickRoom™ and with Trick Room + Teleport on fat , I'll safely pivot into and destroy eveything with:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Tera Rock Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 420-496 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ugh... now I have to use Deoxys-D instead.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Now that it's been announced what might be unbanned, can we please talking about unbanning Ubers box legendaries here? People can speculate about Darkrai all they want. Let's put the Solgaleo and other 680bst mons discussion to rest. Not everything is usable in OU like Zamazenta.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Now that it's been announced what might be unbanned, can we please talking about unbanning Ubers box legendaries here? People can speculate about Darkrai all they want. Let's put the Solgaleo and other 680bst mons discussion to rest. Not everything is usable in OU like Zamazenta.

normally i don't point out grammatical errors/typos because they rarely stop someone from getting their actual point across, but i feel like it's appropriate in this case to point out that you missed a really important "stop" in that first sentence and it undercuts your message entirely. so, clarification for everyone: we should not be talking about unbanning box legendaries right now

 

[apoteosis]

Although this post was in the context of Zacian (I questioned my sanity briefly) I think the sentiment of it applies quite heavily to this whole unbanning discussion where people are suggesting to bring things to OU simply because of one or two weaknesses, even if they’re reasonably large ones.

The fact that box legendaries are consistently entering the discussion here is a problem imo, and I think misses part of the reason that they should remain banned even in the hypothetical case that they wouldn’t be as broken as some other things we’ve banned. We will prioritize balance and competitiveness above all else, and many of these Pokemon (including Solgaleo imo) would upset balance by bringing further centralization to a tier already quite run by it.

Our voting list is finalized and we won’t be revisiting this topic at least for a while after our votes are in. Thanks to everybody for their suggestions and ideas, but also do consider where they’re coming from.

I take it you will vote against Zama-C?

Anyways, you can’t compare Zacian (which is by all accounts broken) with poor which was one of the worst Ubers throughout the past 3 gens (I remember using a funny z-splash set lol)

Myabe you’re all right and Solgaleo is too much for OU, but we won’t know until we try. Same logic as Darkrai

 

[Magcargo]

I take it you will vote against Zama-C?

Anyways, you can’t compare Zacian (which is by all accounts broken) with poor which was one of the worst Ubers throughout the past 3 gens (I remember using a funny z-splash set lol)

Myabe you’re all right and Solgaleo is too much for OU, but we won’t know until we try. Same logic as Darkrai

I could see Solgaleo looked at later, but the only reason it's one of the worst legendaries is that it's completely outclassed by the Dusk Maned variant.

 

[658Greninja]

Ok, enough with the mascot legend dropping discussion. Let’s move on to something actually relevant and doesn’t invite meaningless discussion, the Ubers people actually wanna test out.

(Don’t Retest)
If even Natdex, the tier with M-Scizor and M-Lop doesn’t want it, why should we? Ugly ass Godzilla wannabe.

(Test)
Even if it ends up being broken, I think its at least worth it to give Darkrai a 2nd chance after the nerf to its signature move and a whole gen of heavy power creep. Darkrai might have a 4MSS, wanting Focus Miss for Gambit + Ting-Lu, Sludge Bomb for Fairies, Psychic for Tusk + Zama, G-Knot for Tusk and Ting-Lu. Plus Nasty Plot and/or Hypnosis. I also agree with Vert or whoever advocated to drop it that Darkrai could provide some nice utility to the tier. With Wisp/T-Wave and Knock, it could also be a fast status spreader like Pult except that can really blast through shit with 135 SpA moves. I am interested in how this thing develops in the meta if it turns out balanced.

(Test/Don’t Retest)
If we get an assortment of new defoggers or spinners that can threaten it and also be good, I think it would be worth testing. If not,
NO.

(Don’t Retest)
A broken mon who’s only counter is Dozo who hates Knock Off and outspeeds the entire tier after a DD. Nope.

(Don’t Retest)
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Lash Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 374-442 (98.9 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 438-516 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Don’t Retest)
Imagine being broken in Gen 8 OU only to get fucking SD to invalidate all Clef/Pex cores. Keep it the hell away from the tier. As for Rapid-Strike,

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss on a critical hit: 186-219 (43 - 50.6%) -- approx. 96.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(Test)
More Knock Off in the tier, Tran being around basically means its Tera Ground or bust. Has a notable 4MSS. Glowking sometimes runs T-Wave or Toxic now. Dirge stonks are back up. Wogre incentivizes Wisp or Bug Buzz/Tera Grass. Molt can start running Brave Bird to completely counter it. I think it would serve as a solid defensive glue that could also double as an offensive threat. If it ends up being balanced. Yeah its the Matchup Moth, but its been that way since Gen 5. I think with more additions in the tier, it could be dealt with.

(On the Fence)
It could be argued that it is worse than regular Zama. A worse speed tier meaning it can’t run Adamant, and the inability to run Boots or Lefties to help with its longevity. On the other hand, its physically bulkier than Tusk, specially bulkier than Glowking with the sweet Fighting/Steel typing. Plus its longevity could be supported with G-Terrain support from Rillaboom or wish support from Mola/Clef. It could also be argued that it could push alot of cool lower tier picks into retirement like Weavile because of how bulky it is, and I’ve already gone on a tangent on that earlier.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

If everyone is going absolutely crazy over unbanning stuff, why don't we just unban as power construct is banned in OU anyway? If we are seriously thinking to ban all this, just send it down. Not saying any of this is reasonable, but...

Emotional Advice

You love Ubers? Go play Ubers UU. Or... just sulk here and make posts about dropping mons which have no business in OU.

It is the start of a meta and things will be unbalanced naturally. No need to hide it! If, say, several of these mons are dropped and we need to suspect them, more and more unhealthy stuff will be safe from the banhammer for a little while.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Although this post was in the context of Zacian (I questioned my sanity briefly) I think the sentiment of it applies quite heavily to this whole unbanning discussion where people are suggesting to bring things to OU simply because of one or two weaknesses, even if they’re reasonably large ones.

The fact that box legendaries are consistently entering the discussion here is a problem imo, and I think misses part of the reason that they should remain banned even in the hypothetical case that they wouldn’t be as broken as some other things we’ve banned. We will prioritize balance and competitiveness above all else, and many of these Pokemon (including Solgaleo imo) would upset balance by bringing further centralization to a tier already quite run by it.

Our voting list is finalized and we won’t be revisiting this topic at least for a while after our votes are in. Thanks to everybody for their suggestions and ideas, but also do consider where they’re coming from.

Yeah I feel like testing the weaker boxarts like Lugia and Solgaleo should happen once the meta gets sorted out and is in a balanced place, because now is not the time to test anything not named Zamazenta-C when we are in this chaotic and unstable of a meta that has balance issues already.

If everyone is going absolutely crazy over unbanning stuff, why don't we just unban as power break is banned in OU anyway? If we are seriously thinking to ban all this, just send it down. Not saying any of this is reasonable, but...

NO ABSOLUTELY NOT DDANCE GLARE WAS SO DUMB WHEN IT WAS LEGAL LAST GEN

 

[VTMagno]

If everyone is going absolutely crazy over unbanning stuff, why don't we just unban as power break is banned in OU anyway? If we are seriously thinking to ban all this, just send it down. Not saying any of this is reasonable, but...

Emotional Advice

You love Ubers? Go play Ubers UU. Or... just sulk here and make posts about dropping mons which have no business in OU.

It is the start of a meta and things will be unbalanced naturally. No need to hide it! If, say, several of these mons are dropped and we need to suspect them, more and more unhealthy stuff will be safe from the banhammer for a little while.

Reminder that we only have a grand total of 3 Thousand Arrows resists in OU and one of them is fucking Ribombee

 

[Eeveeto]

If everyone is going absolutely crazy over unbanning stuff, why don't we just unban as power break is banned in OU anyway? If we are seriously thinking to ban all this, just send it down. Not saying any of this is reasonable, but...

Emotional Advice

You love Ubers? Go play Ubers UU. Or... just sulk here and make posts about dropping mons which have no business in OU.

It is the start of a meta and things will be unbalanced naturally. No need to hide it! If, say, several of these mons are dropped and we need to suspect them, more and more unhealthy stuff will be safe from the banhammer for a little while.

Last Gen it was healthy and for me unfairly banned. This Gen it's likely losing Toxic, while Rest has 8 PPs, so I can see it in OU... only with Tera banned. Tera completely changes the defensive/offensive interactions with this Mon and makes almost all checks and counters unreliable. There is always Dondozo, but that didn't save Baxcalibur, Sneasler and Roaring Moon. Plus, Dondozo while will stop Zygarde, will lose lots of PPs in the process, making it unable to stop something like Kingambit later.
We Tera defenders should realize and make peace with the fact that keeping Tera legal means that some Mons will have to be banned and stay this way for the meta to be healthy.

 

[NotDaProGamer]

Last Gen it was healthy and for me unfairly banned. This Gen it's likely losing Toxic, while Rest has 8 PPs, so I can see it in OU... only with Tera banned. Tera completely changes the defensive/offensive interactions with this Mon and makes almost all checks and counters unreliable. There is always Dondozo, but that didn't save Baxcalibur, Sneasler and Roaring Moon. Plus, Dondozo while will stop Zygarde, will lose lots of PPs in the process, making it unable to stop something like Kingambit later.
We Tera defenders should realize and make peace with the fact that keeping Tera legal means that some Mons will have to be banned and stay this way for the meta to be healthy.

Let's be honest, tera is one of the root problems with this whole meta. You can build a team that smashes your opponents but then they pull out a tera once your counter you didn't think you needed is dead and oh no there goes your team. MU-dependent mons don't really exist except in the broadest senses, like 'can't beat stall' or 'dead weight against HO'. There are never really solid 'checks' and 'counters' in this gen.

Edit to avoid double posting: Just noticed it I put power break lol! *Power Construct is the ability that is banned.

 

[Soiramio3000]

I didn't know that there was a survey.

I have got one question about the unbanns:
are going to happen immediately after the dlc drops or shortly afterwards?

I am asking because it is pretty much guaranteed that some of the new and returning pokemon will be too much for the metagame, so unbanning pokemon on day one sounds as if we are throwing oil to the fire.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

and now we're talking about zygarde. which might not even come back. fantastic. listen, i get that we exhausted all productive and relevant discussion about dlc1 a while ago, but this is just utterly ridiculous at this point. is there some kind of secret "post the most wack take you can think of" contest going on? will i win something if i say something about, i dunno, calyrex-ice?

 

[Elec-ant1234]

and now we're talking about zygarde. which might not even come back. fantastic. listen, i get that we exhausted all productive and relevant discussion about dlc1 a while ago, but this is just utterly ridiculous at this point. is there some kind of secret "post the most wack take you can think of" contest going on? will i win something if i say something about, i dunno, calyrex-ice?

do not assume the takes of the one reflect the takes of the many
i also don't really consider it a "discussion" if it's one guy going "what if" and it's 4 other people saying "fuck no"

wait am i going to lose 50 smogon points on this-

 

[RudeLiees]

and now we're talking about zygarde. which might not even come back. fantastic. listen, i get that we exhausted all productive and relevant discussion about dlc1 a while ago, but this is just utterly ridiculous at this point. is there some kind of secret "post the most wack take you can think of" contest going on? will i win something if i say something about, i dunno, calyrex-ice?

TBH, the only drop I really want is Gliscor, I’ll explain later, and IF zygarde retouch the tier, this will be a very very unhealthy tier..,