Stole the team you posted a while back and yeah, Muk-A is insanely good (when Gliscor isn't on the other team of course). Half the time I don't even use it for Rai - its main benefit comes from its good match-up into Gking, letting you fish for a devastating Knock on its partner Tusk / Ting-Lu, both of which are easily crippled by poison & will get worn down fast by the poison damage. Another side benefit is that it is one of the best mons against various cheese sweepers like Latias since its immune to stored power while not being weak to fighting coverage. Add on good MUs against other threatening mons like Ghold, and I think it has some nice value, even with Gliscor being so annoying.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gouging Fire is banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I think what pushes Darkrai over the edge for me is the choice sets. The Boots 3 attacks + wisp/taunt/knock have the capacity to destabilise any team style (though not quite all at once) given the correct combination, but lack power to make up for how difficult it is to bring in. Nasty plot sets have devastating power, but the coverage still needs to be optimized in addition to guys like Zama/Valiant chasing it out and can it sometimes be hard to find turns setup in general. The Choice sets not only heighten Darkrai's already potent offenses, but have the capacity to blank whatever is supposed to sponge it and its cohort's hits thanks to Trick. I feel the more Darkrai gets used, the more devastating Trick will get as it muddies the waters on how you deal with it and if you give it an inch by respecting Trick, it will go a mile thanks its coverage and power(and the threat of Trick can make bluffing a choice item a pretty nasty strat). I feel its combination of power, speed and varied means of disruption are too much for the tier even if its typing and barely passable bulk supposedly keep it in check.
This is just not true. As someone who has built around darkrai on balance a lot, it's by far better into fatter structures then into offensive stuff. It's actually unreliable into Waterpon because of tera and its role for rkilling SD scor can be taken by other mons with ice coverage like Weavile, Deo-S, Meow, etc.. Darkrai's ok speed tier but poor Zama mu means that balance largely prefers mons like either Weavile for its priority as a dark type attacker, or Deo-S for its fantastic speed tier, role as a special knocker and Zama revenge killer. Darkrai's best set is NP, which is great into fat but only okay into offense. It's offense mu is okay but not notable, and its not the reason its as good as it is.
Also, good to see people continually fail to not fearmonger about mola in regards to any reference to waterpon reference.
This isn't really true either. Darkrai is capable of crippling Zama through use of knock off/willo/twave on different sets, with boots 3A+Utility a great way to accomplish this and these sets DO fit on slower teams rather well since it's still naturally fast and has good base power. Even into offense it's good at forcing tradewars so it never really ends up being deadweight.
Of course the biggest reason it has so many eyes on it is the power vs defensive teams but also its versatility.
This is how I've used Darkrai a lot recently (sorry, I sold out a bit). I love Tinkaton a lot, but Darkrais ability to be so fast to land Para's or burns depending on my comp is massive. The para's alone accomplish a lot, bring the enemy speed threats down to a manageable level along with forcing switches on its naturally high base power. It feels like it infinitely accomplishes more for the near same results I've tired to use Tink for lol............
The NP+3A and choice variants are naturally very strong of course, but Utility Rai isn't lacking in power nor speed. And it can afford to even invest in some bulk to live hits on burn sets to moderate success, just a disgusting pokemon. We might be afraid of Mola Wars but there's legitimate counterplay to mola sets and trapping in general. Much harder to play around Darkrai unless you already have guessed its set+have the healthy answer+don't guess wrong.
Yeah but the issue is if you slot twave/wisp/knock you have to give nasty plot up typically limiting its offensive power. It does have to pick and choose quite a bit and that can be limiting for it if you figure out if it's running that because oftentimes without np or specs it can miss out on kills that it otherwise would be able to get.
Choiced trick sets are annoying but you can play around them kinda like with other choice trick users. Remember toxic/flame orb/sticky barb clef? I can only imagine how funny it would be to switch a clefable into a choice trick set only for Darkrai to get one of those items and be put on a timer, so that can be a funny check into those sets. (Max HP max special defense calm Clef overall is actually a pretty decent check, as both magic guard and unaware help deal with different sets with some overlap between sets, although if you aren't unaware an NP boosted sludge bomb is a 2hko at least, with a chance to okho if you aren't max special defense.)
I do believe Darkrai can be a pain in the ass but as I said before I don't think it's banworthy personally. Honestly let's have a bit of fun here and think of some Darkrai checks/counters that are or could be viable to fit.
I've heard people talking about hatterene a little bit. AV primarina probably does really well with some HP/special defense investment as it takes way less from sludge bomb than I thought when I did the calc for it even if it still gets hit with a 2hko sludge bomb with NP up
Wonder what Darkrai checks we can think up
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Darkrai is naturally strong without the boost from Nasty Plot. While it lacks the power to outright break through all balance cores, its ability to harass them doesn't go away. Knock Off Darkrai in particular is great at screwing with common switch ins like Garganacl and Ting-Lu on Balance (and rare Heatran) while TWave is equally obnoxious since it further restricts their methods for handling Darkrai's teammates. Zama is a common catch all soft check for various big threats like Darkrai and Wellspring, so Darkrai ruining it through status enables its teammates to go wild, a factor one shouldn't overlook.
Clef is not a switch to Darkrai, not traditionally anyways as Sludge Bomb threatens it too deeply to comfortably come in (and if it NPs on the switch as Clef comes into it, well...). It also hardly handles it well even with spdef investment as specs, LO and Expert Belt all pressure it heavily. Regarding Primarina, Sludge Bomb still chunks it even on AV sets with some spdef investment and also threatens debilitating poison on top of the hazards likely to be up.
The problem with Darkrai is that its natural strengths go beyond just its high speed and special attack. It's the immense versatility it has between item and move choice which lets it freely handpick what it beats which naturally presents a problem for balance and general bulky teams as it has a rather limited amount of splashable and consistent counterplay. At least Balance breakers like Kyurem and Wellspring have flaws with their individual sets (specs being hazard prone and slower, boots sets being a bit lacking in power to break down super sturdy balance teams with Glowking, while Wellspring is rather status prone along with hazards so even soft checks like Dragapult can slow it down, or physdef Clef with TWave). I've seen some comparisons to Gouging Fire during its suspect, but that doesn't really work as a comparison either. Given that Gouging was operating largely off the strength of Breaking Swipe sets that people at the time thought were able to BS most of its checks, but later discovered it was a slow build up mon that could be stopped. Darkrai has many sets and is much more versatile.
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Hate to be petty like this but i had an exchange with finch on the eve of dlc2 where darkrai was being discussed. My opinion was that itd be broken. his opinion was that itd be mid/ possibly fall to UU. we all have different opinions thats cool, and more importantly, neither of us had real evidence to back what we were saying because it was speculation at that point. what annoyed me was after that exchange, people started to dogpile saying i didnt know what im talking about etc. fast forward a few months, we kneecapped it with a sleep ban and its still strong enough to get a suspect.
I think what we can all learn from this is toban moves that can flinch wait until we've seen the longer term impact on a metagame before acting like the implications of a drop/ban are obvious
I think what we can all learn from this is to
I called Darkrai broken long before the survey to drop mons from Ubers even happened. People who were calling Darkrai mid comparing it to Gengar were obviously going to be wrong. Not only is Darkrai faster than Gengar and Naganadel but also has higher base Special Attack than both of them although it does have lower burst damage compared to Naganadel overall due to the higher Base Power of Naganadel's moves.
I called from the very beginning that the closest analog to Darkrai from a previous generation is Naganadel, and although Darkrai doesn't have Beast Boost, it is still a powerful breaker and destroyer of fat while not being useless vs. offense. The only reason Darkrai hasn't been banned already is 'cause of the higher speed tiers of SV OU with Zamazenta and Booster Energy mons.
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There's Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound, which is probably one of the better checks as even at +2 Dark Pulse doesn't 2HKO without Rocks or Spikes, but Hoopa-Unbound is hard to fit on teams. The tier would be better off with Darkrai gone given how constraining it is in the builder.
Assault Vest Iron Hands is a good check if Darkrai isn't packing Psyshock. And before you call Psyshock bad, neutral Psyshock with Expert Belt 2HKOes offensive Great Tusk 50% of the time, and at +2, it's the same roll for an OKHO, meaning you don't have to rely on Focus Blast. It's also Darkrai's best move against Iron Moth (a roll to OHKO), Clodsire, an Ogerpon-Wellspring that has Teraed, a Slowking-Galar that has Teraed, Venusaur in Sun, Keldeo, and Toxapex.
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Darkrai + sleep definitely made a real difference on the stall/fat matchup where theyre suddently taking spikes every turn. I felt it abused sleep in a different way to valiant or liligant but it was still pretty potent. Blows my mind on the decision to ban sleep though, breloom+amoongus been balanced for a decade, a dozen unproblematic sleep powder users. Darkrai shouldve been booted from the start
The sleep ban is definitely something I still feel very mixed on. Valiant, Darkrai and H-Lilligant were all extremely problematic with sleep, not going to complain about them.
But, I also think that the removal of Spore might of hurt the tier more than it helped. Which is a shame.
I am bad at this game, so I might be wrong. But that's how I'm feeling right now.
But, I also think that the removal of Spore might of hurt the tier more than it helped. Which is a shame.
I am bad at this game, so I might be wrong. But that's how I'm feeling right now.
Sleep ban was over a decade in the making. The previous rule required a mod and was a decrepit vestige of a bygone era that no longer fits what the site is trying to accomplish.
Unless Game Freak randomly decides to include more in-depth customization to cart PvP (which they should tbh) you shouldn't except Sleep Clause to come back.
Unless Game Freak randomly decides to include more in-depth customization to cart PvP (which they should tbh) you shouldn't except Sleep Clause to come back.
My post wasn't an attempt to call out the OU council or anything. I get why the decision was made and I don't disagree with the logic behind it.
I just think it's a shame that we lost some very valuable tools because of the ban. Even if it was ultimately the right call.
Spore is weird to me where it feels like they realized sleep may in fact be a little crazy, but never adjusted the core mechanic enough and instead just gave spore to shitmons featuring Breloom and Amoonguss.
Do you have any examples of this? I am pretty much 0tol with this and have been deleting posts on here and blocking people on Twitter who act this way. Even if people disagree with me or say something that’s a bit silly, there’s never room to harass people.
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Finch, come on man, there are so many examples of opinions on this thread being dog-piled on, especially those against the status quo. It's one thing to disagree with people, but there are definitely users here who can't help but spam hahas with any content that doesn't align with their views.
You’re missing the point entirely. Disagreement with actual justification is perfectly fine. Dogpiling to unreasonable extents and insulting or harassment is not. Haha reacting is very obviously not malicious and if your skin isn’t thick enough for that, then idk what to say.
Comparing the two and likening them isn’t fair whatsoever. Sometimes people post wrong or silly opinions and end up with multiple responses correcting them — this is fine. Sometimes people post opinions that are fair and get genuine disagreements — this is fine as well.
I am talking about unjustified, rude, and uncalled for response patterns. There’s clearly a line between the two there.
I don’t have time to monitor this thread 24/7 — I work full time and have plenty of other things to attend to, but (and I have a ridiculous amount of proof of this) I have blocked so many people on Twitter and infracted bad offenders on here, so I always want examples to weed out the shitheads and make sure people learn the right lessons.
As an aside: various of your own posts border on falling into the category you’re supposedly calling me out for not policing, so I think there’s a good bit of irony here.
zamazenta has near 30% usage bro. you yourself deemed this centralizing 'mon an essential piece of the metagame yet simultaneously claim said 30% usage 'mon is not enough counter-play?
these outdated clefable-samurott-skarmory structures are not going to be suddenly viable, or even playable if we ban darkrai. kyurem, gouging fire kingambit, raging bolt, even roaring moon are bigger contributors as they have priority or ways to boost speed making revenge killing slim. similar to zamazenta you can find 10x more replays of these sweeping than darkrai.
boots raging, slowking-g, grasspon, alomomola, zapdos, moltres, boots gouging, tera-skeledirge, kyurem, cinderace, clefable (stop pairing it with basic shit), tera-gholdengo, corviknight,... none of these 'mons on updated balances are letting you nasty plot for free without going for a big hit, thunder wave slowing it down for your breaker, or pivot move → aforementioned zamazenta, dragapult, boots deoxys, even scarf val which bea is using to high ladder success. darkrai also suffers from longevity issues making priority options in kingambit, dragonite, and weavile solid later. it's the reason leftovers is seeing use but having that item prevents you from using darkrai most powerful aspect: bluffing sets. sure you can sweep some 2023 balances with np tera-poison lefties darkrai but so do 20 other 'mons in this tier with tera.
the stationary 'mons on newer balances aren't passive either like garganacl spamming broken salt cure and gliscor sweeping with tera + sd. and did you really mention blissey before ting-lu? like bruh. tinkaton isn't fringe and fits on more pro-active balance via pickpocket stealing boots. clodsire-gliscor cores are decent. most of the darkrai games this world cup are it coming in to check something, maybe click utility moves like trick-wisp-knock, then leaving. this is the type of game-flow i like in SV OU.
| 6 | Darkrai | 116 | 23.77% | 53.45% |
deleting the #6 'mon in usage with a chill win-rate surely won't have an impact on the metagame! just use serperior & sinistcha for gliscor instead. both are a toxic away from a bad spot while leaf storm or hex need to be used twice to force switch. darkrai gets poisoned too but ice beam does 100% min meaning it'll always kill / force tera as long as it doesn't die to tox-tect damage that turn. this is not a comparable dynamic at all, funny i have to explain this. every boots zama team had ice fang dlc1... we lying now? anyways, if lol ice fang was enough ice spinner tusk would've prevented its last ban. yes, weavile did get better yet remains locked to the exact playstyle going through this transitional building phase xavgb mentioned in the first place. random tera blast-ice was one of the major ban arguments, not counter-play. deoxys is the only strong mention here.
and please bro i don't want to hear the word kyurem come out of your mouth. as if you haven't been vocal on banning it and how it's still broken
finally the zap-king-lu arguments aren't silly LOOOOOOOL if you ban gliscor we're getting it for a 3rd time. we went through 2 of them already yet instead of analyzing and learning from those metagames you're in denial. i guarantee raging bolt which is walled by the "lu" part of zap-king-lu isn't stopping shit.
at least when raptor mentions darkrai, he talks about banning gliscor in the same sentence which i can respect. you however lack clear understanding of gliscor dynamics. i believe Finch's post in general highlights how terrible the ban arguments are when you aren't resorting to "dark pulse flinch, ice beam freeze, sludge bomb poison."
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE THE PUSSY BAN SIDE MORE 'MONS IF YOU LIKE THE TIER RIGHT NOW
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
Finch, there has been a user that has laugh reacted to like my last 10 posts - that's not a lack of thick skin, that's targeted harassment - there's a reason social media generally doesn't have a dislike option and that's because guess what, it creates a negative stimuli which can really trigger some users. It's not a case about me but rather, it off puts some users from posting their opinions because they're afraid of the reaction they will get and the subsequent negative emotions they will get afterwards.
You don't need to justify the content here - you're not a one person team and I never suggested any inadequacy in terms of your moderation so i'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
My posts have been critical of the meta yes, but i've never haha reacted or straight up been disrespectful to other users who haven't been disrespectful to me. You fine well know there is a difference between critiquing the metagame we play and holding those responsible accountable and launching personal attacks on members such as yourself which I haven't done.
Why do you think it sees so much usage? And do you think only having a single check that doesn’t strictly fit on stall is healthy enough? Think this shit through man. You’re proving my point in emphasizing this usage, not your own.
To be balanced, you need a variety of checks/counters that fit onto archetypes.
Ting Lu is hardly a good Darkrai measure. You switch into one Wisp or Nasty Plot turn and games go south so quickly. Darkrai is frequently paired with shit that abuses Ting Lu being weakened and Ting Lu does not even 1v1 Darkrai if it has to switch in on any move that is not Dark Pulse. It even loses 1v1 to the Grassy Darkrai shit regardless of that. This is a trap more than it is a check or counter.
What kind of fantasy world are you living in? Ice Fang was seldom used in DLC1 on Zamazenta. Go through every SCL game -- it was clicked/revealed 4 times all season and saw less than 5% play on high ladder. I spammed the fuck out of Zama and had 1 team with Ice Fang out of 50+ from this period. This some revisionist history nonsense that statistics and the actual tier disprove.
But forget the rest of the post: this is the crazy shit right here. Usage and win rate have so little to do with what's broken or not.
If you want to think of it like this, then should we just never ban shit that sees usage ever? Why draw the line here? Why did we ban shit earlier on when you liked the metagame then? Is there just a point where we stop improving things even if a ton of people think there's room for improvement??? If you're going to push for tiering based off of fear for the future, then you gotta codify somewhere when to draw the line and what we are afraid of the metagame becoming.
You are so critical of me for allgedly not thinking through the hypothetical ripples of any given ban before-the-fact despite this not being part of tiering, but you have not thought through at all the precedent your logic sets and how arbitrarily you apply it. If we did it like this all generation, we would just be playing OUBL at that point.
I can assure you most uses of the Haha button are just disagreements or laughter, not targeted harassment. It's not that deep. If people genuinely are harassing you, please report it -- we will be happy to investigate.
Perfect time and perfect mon for a suspect.
There was already a Kyurem suspect and restesting the same mon every 6 months isn't a good precedent to set.
The optics are bad and it's also just not the correct path when it comes to balancing a tier.
Darkrai is the best mon to suspect right now and it's pretty obvious.
There was already a Kyurem suspect and restesting the same mon every 6 months isn't a good precedent to set.
The optics are bad and it's also just not the correct path when it comes to balancing a tier.
Darkrai is the best mon to suspect right now and it's pretty obvious.
- Zama has already had a suspect, and is frankly at a point where it needs to Tera Steel or Fire to be borderline broken. It's just another cheese-wincon to balance out the other cheese-wincons. It can be annoying but so can a lot of mons rn.
- Ogerpon-W is one of those aforementioned cheesy mons with 4MSS, predictable, and doesn't have a set or a way to handle all its counters. It's strong but if you're losing to this consistently that's on you and/or your team, with all due respect.
- Kyurem has already had a suspect. Specs is really its only hardcore scary set and after SR, especially two entries, it's getting RK but most prio and anything faster. It folds to strong HO, even subpar HO like rain and sun, and it folds to bulky hazards team.
- Bolt is stupid bulky and Clap is dumb but we have enough answers to Spa mons in the tier and enough Dragons, Ground and Grass to handle it fairly well, doesn't seem to be OP atm.
- Gambit has already had a suspect and it's never going anywhere.