Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Kallum]

I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another.

High: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.

Someday when everyone is busy with Gen 10 Mega Bidoof suspect test; you, me and all the paldean homies will squad up and get Tera banned once and for all.

 

[Moyashi]

Raging Bolt is nowhere near broken, nor is Kingambit. They both have a health amount of outs both in the builder and in game while they also offer healthy and important anti offense tools which cuts down on cheese nonsense in the tier.

For that matter, Garg is not ban worthy either. It’s a strong top tier Pokémon at this point and yes, it’s annoying, but many strong picks are. Ting-Lu isn’t either and I don’t know how anyone could reach that idea. Both It and Gary are crucial defensive presences that help defensive structures function by checking a wide amount of threats while keeping up pressure themselves with their moves. Glowking also isn’t even close to broken what.

Lastly we never aim to “eradicate” styles ever. Boots spam teams aren’t even the best playstyle let alone very hard to handle.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another.

High: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.

based i love actual good takes like this keep it up bro

 

[Roshino]

Both It and Gary are crucial defensive presences (...)

I will now forever refer to Garganacl as Gary, much obliged

 

[Avira]

Raging Bolt is nowhere near broken, nor is Kingambit. They both have a health amount of outs both in the builder and in game while they also offer healthy and important anti offense tools which cuts down on cheese nonsense in the tier.

For that matter, Garg is not ban worthy either. It’s a strong top tier Pokémon at this point and yes, it’s annoying, but many strong picks are. Ting-Lu isn’t either and I don’t know how anyone could reach that idea. Both It and Gary are crucial defensive presences that help defensive structures function by checking a wide amount of threats while keeping up pressure themselves with their moves. Glowking also isn’t even close to broken what.

Lastly we never aim to “eradicate” styles ever. Boots spam teams aren’t even the best playstyle let alone very hard to handle.

Yeah, his take is insane. Boots spam teams struggle a lot against the current high offensive power of the tier. Considering this guy has been telling everybody to play offense, he is obviously not using the best tools offense has to offer, which would be why he is struggling against Boots spam teams and wanting to ban at least 9 mons...

 

[RS25802580]

NP Darkrai does not need two out of Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, and Ice Beam. NP, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, and Psyshock (trashes most Fairy-type Pokemon at +2 aside from Tinkaton) hits pretty much the entire tier. Just make sure you break Dragonite's Multiscale beforehand, and it should do well if you have enough chip on the enemy team.

Darkrai absolutely wants Sludge Bomb for Primarina, Clefable, Zamazenta (it’s your best option when combo’d with Tera Poison), and most Tera Fairy mons (Glowking, Ghold). Ice beam is obviously super useful to kill very common things like Gliscor, Lando, and Tusk if you aren’t able to get a Nasty Plot up. This is a very common situation since Darkrai is often too pressured to get off a boost. One of the reasons why NP Darkrai is so good is being able to snipe these mons at any time with Ice Beam. Beyond that, it’s your only move that OHKOs Bolt and Bulky Dnite (multiscale broken) at +2. These are both mons that you don’t want to leave lingering around due to their access to priority. Dropping this also makes you rely on Focus Miss to OHKO Tusk at +2, which is not optimal.

TLDR: There’s a reason why Smogon lists Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb as primary moves for NP Darkrai. Dark Pulse/Focus Blasts/Psyshock is a set that improves the stall matchup at the cost of being worse against balance and BO as described above.

 

[Magcargo]

Psyshock is a costly move on NP Darkrai since it already has to chose two out of Sludge Bomb, Focus Miss, and Ice Beam. Any meta changes that further increase Darkrai’s 4MSS will help.

It's pretty great set when paired with other special breakers like Ghold and Raging Bolt since it lures and breaks shared checks like Iron Moth, Ting-Lu and Clod. Psyshock is good for bliss, while Tera Fighting Focus Blast blows through steel clod and Ting-lu which is pretty chill to help the other breakers.

 

[RS25802580]

It's pretty great set when paired with other special breakers like Ghold and Raging Bolt since it lures and breaks shared checks like Iron Moth, Ting-Lu and Clod. Psyshock is good for bliss, while Tera Fighting Focus Blast blows through steel clod and Ting-lu which is pretty chill to help the other breakers.

Good point. I’m not meaning to imply that Psyshock is bad. I’m sure it’s great on the right teams as you’ve said. My point is that increased stall = more psyshock Darkrai and less sludge bomb/ice beam Rai = an easier time for balance and BO structures using things like Primarina, Zama, Tera Fairy Garg/Ghold, Clefable, and Bolt, among others.

Personally (and I recognize I’m just one person here) the balance teams I use against 1800s Rai users would much prefer facing the Psyshock set. So by all means keep using Psyshock folks :)

 

[Avira]

Darkrai absolutely wants Sludge Bomb for Primarina, Clefable, Zamazenta (it’s your best option when combo’d with Tera Poison), and most Tera Fairy mons (Glowking, Ghold). Ice beam is obviously super useful to kill very common things like Gliscor, Lando, and Tusk if you aren’t able to get a Nasty Plot up. This is a very common situation since Darkrai is often too pressured to get off a boost. One of the reasons why NP Darkrai is so good is being able to snipe these mons at any time. Beyond that, it’s your only move that OHKOs Bolt and Bulky Dnite (multiscale broken) at +2. These are both mons that you don’t want to leave lingering around due to their access to priority. Dropping this also makes you rely on Focus Miss to hit Tusk at +2, which is not optimal at all.

TLDR: There’s a reason why Smogon lists Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb as primary moves for NP Darkrai. Dark Pulse/Focus Blasts/Psyshock is a set that improves the stall matchup at the cost of being worse against balance and BO as described above.

Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Sludge Bomb, is walled by Kingambit, the #1 mon in the tier, so I'm really not keen on that set.

As for the calc against Primarina: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 230-271 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primarina is not eating that well at all, and it doesn't take much chip for it to lose outright.

I admit that Clefable does well against NP Psyshock, but Clefable is hardly tough to handle with the high offensive power of the tier, and you can deal with it with your teammates.

As for Zamazenta, Darkrai needs to Tera to beat it, and it's best to beat Zama with something else since Tera is an important resource unless you know that blowing your Tera on Darkrai means that you win.

There's nothing saying Dragonite will be at 100% the whole match since it is relied on to check many mons and can't always be kept out of the early game to stay healthy. If Multiscale is broken, Dark Pulse decimates Dragonite: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Raging Bolt may not be OHKOed by +2 Dark Pulse unless Darkrai has Life Orb, but games aren't played in a vacuum, and Raging Bolt won't always be at 100%.

That's not true that Darkrai would be relying on Focus Blast to hit Great Tusk.

+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 338-401 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

With any sort of chip, Great Tusk is done and dusted unless it Teras.

 

[RS25802580]

Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, and Sludge Bomb, is walled by Kingambit, the #1 mon in the tier, so I'm really not keen on that set.

As for the calc against Primarina: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 230-271 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primarina is not eating that well at all, and it doesn't take much chip for it to lose outright.

I admit that Clefable does well against NP Psyshock, but Clefable is hardly tough to handle with the high offensive power of the tier, and you can deal with it with your teammates.

As for Zamazenta, Darkrai needs to Tera to beat it, and it's best to beat Zama with something else since Tera is an important resource unless you know that blowing your Tera on Darkrai means that you win.

There's nothing saying Dragonite will be at 100% the whole match since it is relied on to check many mons and can't always be kept out of the early game to stay healthy. If Multiscale is broken, Dark Pulse decimates Dragonite: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Raging Bolt may not be OHKOed by +2 Dark Pulse unless Darkrai has Life Orb, but games aren't played in a vacuum, and Raging Bolt won't always be at 100%

That's not true that Darkrai would be relying on Focus Blast to hit Great Tusk.

+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 338-401 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

With any sort of chip, Great Tusk is done and dusted unless it Teras.

We could go back and forth exchanging calcs :) My point is not that one is better than the other, but that adding Psyshock improves some matchups at the expense of others. Not all of these matchups are occurring at +2 because just as certain checks aren’t gonna be at 100% at every match, a skilled opponent will try to minimize the opportunities for Darkrai to setup so you’re not gonna get an easy +2 every match. Which again, is why Ice Beam is such a good move on Darkrai when you’re able to slot it on. I agree with you that hitting Gambit is pretty important so I personally would not be dropping Focus Blast on Rai, though some do.

Overall though, I can totally see how Psyshock Rai is an effective set. Might have to try it out sometime!

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I hate tera, but may as well embrace it since Smogon community is sticking its head in the sand.

Try using Stellar Tera Blast on your sweepers. It does away with a lot of the nonsense guessing games that tera promotes. Specs Stellar is a great example of a win condition that you can execute a gameplay for. It wipes everything that's not hard stall with a clean switch and a layer of hazards. Even on non-contrary pokemon, I think it is a great coverage option on any sweepers with more than ~130 attacking stats.

===================

On a more general note, my personal issue tiers are:

Extreme: (Tera). Tera be broke. Please just make a declaration on if this will be banned or not. That would make tiering everything else so much easier, one way or another. Tera is fun and skill-testing too, especially in building, but I think it just makes a bunch of stuff dumb.

High: These are all way too bulky and can flip matchups with tera and then get more free turns. I think mechanics that remove counterplay via revenge killing are not very fair when they can be executed with such low risk (compared to something like psychic terrain). If people would use Raging bolts sets that aren't just booster CM, such as specs or taunt, then I think this would be more obviously broken.

Mid: Garganacl prob be in high for how stupid and fishy it is. bargain bin gameplay. The others are just dumb fat stuff. specifically is a very ridiculous pile of stats. Zamazenta would be high, but it only is restictive to offense. pretty dumb that it 6-0s after an ID though. I think sash is dumb, but that's only an issue off lead.

Boots spam is probably the style that we should aim to eradicate. With the stats + defensive teras I think this is a very uninteractive matchup for most teams. Hard stall is OK to me. That's more a of a team-building check. also is just a goofy item, but maybe that's more indicative of Dragapult. and OGER just not that good...use speed control challenge; difficulty:impossible

Lastly, I am finding Screens (whether from Aurora Veil or plain ol double screens) to be very good. people seem to have forgotten that defog exists, so you just get free +2 defenses. very good for you all who are predisposed to have challenged vs offenses.

Tera is dumb but for different reasons than you are saying. The entire mechanic, while being skillful is a matchup fish by nature and creates unhealthy dynamics but a lot of the mons you list aren't even broken right now even if some of them have potential to be with tera. Like I think tera is broken and probably not good for the meta as a whole and probably contributes to a lot of the meta problems despite being fun and skillful in some ways, but the broken mons you list in the high section are just not broken.
Don't expect action on tera since it is nowhere near a priority at the current moment, and if it ever goes or gets action at all it probably won't be until this tier is an old gen if the meta is still in a messy state (Which I think it very well could be after the generation ends with how slow action has been and how much of a pain this tier is to balance. If this is the case, I get the feeling oldgen players will not be nice to this tier when the gen ends.)
Enough of that tera tangent.

God these other takes are awful, I can't lie.

I can't agree with most of these. Darkrai is potentially broken to me and Kyurem and Waterpon are busted and need to go. This person has never had their fat teams evicerated by Waterpon and also Kyurem before. Neither really have defensive checks at all so i'm tired of pretending they both do.

At least with darkrai while it can pick and choose its sets it can be held back by frailty and general 4mss that can occassionally limit it against certain threats. That is not a factor with Kyurem and Waterpon as they don't have any switchins at all really and make bulky teams really hard to run in this meta.

The fact this person sees garg and TING LU as broken is hilarious to me. Those mons are perfectly fine ngl. Crazy there are people who think garg is busted still

 

[sims796]

Personally (and I recognize I’m just one person here) the balance teams I use against 1800s Rai users would much prefer facing the Psyshock set. So by all means keep using Psyshock folks :)

I was willing to eat an infraction and tell you to shut up before I saw this part.

Listen to them. They are wise. Drop Ice Beam off your Darkrai. Psyshock is much better. Glowking hates it.


This message bought to you by the balance gang

 

[tommytt22]

A commentary i want to make on Gen 9 OU, a tier i have a love/ hate relationship with, is that i do consider most playstyles viable if youre willing to get creative in the teambuilder. Thats something i really like about this format. And one of the cooler things I've found, is that while hazards are more widely distributed than ever, and removal is the weakest its been in 3 generations, the powercreep is so nasty this gen you can really put the hurt on hazard stack teams with raw firepower since they give up so many turns setting up hazards. With all that being said, today i will share with you a rarely seen strategy, Sun + Webs

I'll start by saying is a disgrace to the OU tier. My set is highly unorthodox but in this replay you will observe it taking 85% from close combat. max defense roaring moon is a gross new technology we are yet to truly understand. Here is the team paste for anyone interested

Sun + Webs

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Energy Ball

Ninetales @ Eject Pack
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Memento
- Scorching Sands
- Will-O-Wisp

Great Tusk @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Knock Off
- Ice Spinner

Raging Bolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Weather Ball

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Court Change
- U-turn

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2148494328-jjzntahtbzedgxwb7scd10046dekp6opw

Theres a few things to unpack with this team. I'll start with , who i consider the better sun setter on a team like this. A lot of sun teams require sun up at all times to function but this one doesnt. for that reason heat rock would just be a momentum sink. eject pack overheat is extremely useful. Not only for calcs such as this:

252 SpA Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

but more importantly for situations like this:

252 SpA Overheat vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 107-126 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

where you can guarantee breaking the sub + getting a switch to something favourable, whereas can still run eject pack, theyll be boosting before you move and you wont break the sub. As this team has some really greedy wallbreakers such as life orb and Adamant CB , you dont need the extra turns of setup from heat rock. eject pack/ momento into one of these breakers and take a KO.

barely uses the sun on this team, Its mainly a bluff on a choice item to scare people into switching and get an extra DD. It busts a nut. Every. Single. Game. The dark steel combo is fearsome (not like we should be surprised) and it can cheese past anything sturdy with iron head (cheap ass move, gamefreak). 44 speed creeps and after 1 DD. This ties into why i choose over . has 100% accurate thunder wave, and there are games where that is the better choice over webs. Anytime i face that situation with i start sweating about stun spore missing.

Finally is there for a high powered pyro ball under sun and for a secondary priority option in a pinch. he has hazard control should i choose to not use webs in a game, but court change is a rare occurence. I havent tried this but you could try , who has overheat+vacuum wave or flareblitz+mach punch. obviously you have no hazard control AT ALL then but like i said at the start, you have the firepower to manage that, and you can bluff spin with tusk.

Thankyou for reading

 

[sims796]

A commentary i want to make on Gen 9 OU, a tier i have a love/ hate relationship with, is that i do consider most playstyles viable if youre willing to get creative in the teambuilder. Thats something i really like about this format. And one of the cooler things I've found, is that while hazards are more widely distributed than ever, and removal is the weakest its been in 3 generations, the powercreep is so nasty this gen you can really put the hurt on hazard stack teams with raw firepower since they give up so many turns setting up hazards. With all that being said, today i will share with you a rarely seen strategy, Sun + Webs

I'll start by saying is a disgrace to the OU tier. My set is highly unorthodox but in this replay you will observe it taking 85% from close combat. max defense roaring moon is a gross new technology we are yet to truly understand. Here is the team paste for anyone interested

Sun + Webs

Roaring Moon @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Energy Ball

Ninetales @ Eject Pack
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Memento
- Scorching Sands
- Will-O-Wisp

Great Tusk @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Headlong Rush
- Knock Off
- Ice Spinner

Raging Bolt @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Weather Ball

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Court Change
- U-turn

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2148494328-jjzntahtbzedgxwb7scd10046dekp6opw

Theres a few things to unpack with this team. I'll start with , who i consider the better sun setter on a team like this. A lot of sun teams require sun up at all times to function but this one doesnt. for that reason heat rock would just be a momentum sink. eject pack overheat is extremely useful. Not only for calcs such as this:

252 SpA Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

but more importantly for situations like this:

252 SpA Overheat vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 107-126 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

where you can guarantee breaking the sub + getting a switch to something favourable, whereas can still run eject pack, theyll be boosting before you move and you wont break the sub. As this team has some really greedy wallbreakers such as life orb and Adamant CB , you dont need the extra turns of setup from heat rock. eject pack/ momento into one of these breakers and take a KO.

barely uses the sun on this team, Its mainly a bluff on a choice item to scare people into switching and get an extra DD. It busts a nut. Every. Single. Game. The dark steel combo is fearsome (not like we should be surprised) and it can cheese past anything sturdy with iron head (cheap ass move, gamefreak). 44 speed creeps and after 1 DD. This ties into why i choose over . has 100% accurate thunder wave, and there are games where that is the better choice over webs. Anytime i face that situation with i start sweating about stun spore missing.

Finally is there for a high powered pyro ball under sun and for a secondary priority option in a pinch. he has hazard control should i choose to not use webs in a game, but court change is a rare occurence. I havent tried this but you could try , who has overheat+vacuum wave or flareblitz+mach punch. obviously you have no hazard control AT ALL then but like i said at the start, you have the firepower to manage that, and you can bluff spin with tusk.

Thankyou for reading

I took personal issue with you saying "100% accurate paralysis", before I remembered Compound Eyes.

I really concur with that reasoning. The amount of games I won because the opponent's Stun Spore missing is truly despicable.

 

[Blue Sun]

Who would have thought a mon that forced a master rule change (sleep) in order to remain in the tier is now considered broken. Darkrai being OU was the community's materialization of its old wish to unban a "true" and traditional uber for the lolz. We had our fun but now its time to go.

 

[GummyRowlets]

Who would have thought a mon that forced a master rule change (sleep) in order to remain in the tier is now considered broken. Darkrai being OU was the community's materialization of its old wish to unban a "true" and traditional uber for the lolz. We had our fun but now its time to go.

w pfp

 

[viivian]

bit late to the party but might as well share my thoughts and ramblings on the most recent tiering survey since i'm too tired to go over each pokemon individually

like xavgb said, we should give it some time before opening any suspect tests or dropping pokemon from ubers. darkrai should be closely monitored in future tiering surveys, but at the risk of sounding like an outsider on twitter i believe it's also important to explore new options to curb the threat it poses. for instance, tinkaton has picked up in usage & viability considerably, largely because of her naturally good matchup against darkrai alongside her many other valuable traits (her typing, movepool, ability, etc.), and has become a legitimately good OU pokemon because of it. i think giving people time to innovate their own solutions to a rampant offensive threat can be valuable if the threat is not one that requires immediate tiering action. and it's for this reason i gave darkrai a 3 on the tiering survey, undeniably a dangerous pokemon but i'm willing to wait and see how things play out first. and to a lesser (or even greater) extent, i see ogerpon-W and kyurem the same way

as for the other pokemon featured on the survey, i genuinely could care less. in retrospect, maybe gouging fire could be suspect tested again later down the line but i do not believe kingambit, raging bolt, zamazenta, or any other pokemon i didn't already mention is deserving of tiering action in the near future. even if they may feel cheap to play against at times there is plenty of reliable counterplay that exists for all of them, and said counterplay has existed for quite some time now. i personally think it's time to move on from discussing these pokemon, that is until something new comes up

and of course, quickban zapdos and moltres. not because they're broken but because i simply despise them

 

[Moyashi]

has become a legitimately good OU pokemon because of it.

This is a stretch. Tinkaton is certainly VIABLE, and it's a decent pick on some structures but calling it legitimately good is pushing the reality of things a bit. It has some serious issues (lack of longevity, being stretched too thin for checking too many things at once leading to be overwhelmed, passive). It's also not exactly a particularly splashable pokemon.

I'm fine with the idea of waiting just a little longer to see if people innovate further and come up with checks, but it's also important to monitor how people feel towards the tier going forwards as while overall feelings are a bit better post Volc, they still could be better and there is still notable distaste for certain aspects of this tier which is why I believe there is only so much waiting that can be done before something has to break.

 

[viivian]

B- for a UU pokemon is pretty commendable in my book, and i've seen legitimate arguments from qualified players in favor of moving it higher. it's not a meta staple but it's a legitimate off-meta pick imo, tho in hindsight i understand that calling it good is a bit of a stretch

 

[GummyRowlets]

This is a stretch. Tinkaton is certainly VIABLE, and it's a decent pick on some structures but calling it legitimately good is pushing the reality of things a bit. It has some serious issues (lack of longevity, being stretched too thin for checking too many things at once leading to be overwhelmed, passive). It's also not exactly a particularly splashable pokemon.

I'm fine with the idea of waiting just a little longer to see if people innovate further and come up with checks, but it's also important to monitor how people feel towards the tier going forwards as while overall feelings are a bit better post Volc, they still could be better and there is still notable distaste for certain aspects of this tier which is why I believe there is only so much waiting that can be done before something has to break.

The longevity issue isn't an issue for where Tinkaton is best, offense. Offensive teams always want some support and Tinkaton gives that with twave, rocks, typing, and encore, and it also helps that offense teams are on the rise right now. Teams love all that Tinkaton can give into one role. It's like lando in a way where both check lots of things but won't be around for long. Meaning what they will provide will just be for short-term. It lack of longevity is an issue on bulkier teams though, so balance prob wouldn't use it. I would prob give it B+ at most just for it's ability to check Darkai actually reliably throughout a game and other offensive threats pretty decently.

 

[Alternator]

Who would have thought a mon that forced a master rule change (sleep) in order to remain in the tier is now considered broken. Darkrai being OU was the community's materialization of its old wish to unban a "true" and traditional uber for the lolz. We had our fun but now its time to go.

Darkrai was completely fine in OU until Volcarona got banned, which means he was completely fine when first dropped, and still fine after the switch from Sleep Clause to Sleep Moves Clause.

 

[GummyRowlets]

Darkrai was completely fine in OU until Volcarona got banned, which means he was completely fine when first dropped, and still fine after the switch from Sleep Clause to Sleep Moves Clause.

Just interested but do you believe Darkai to balance? I'm confused by what you said since it seems like you did the first half but say the opposite in the second half.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This is a stretch. Tinkaton is certainly VIABLE, and it's a decent pick on some structures but calling it legitimately good is pushing the reality of things a bit. It has some serious issues (lack of longevity, being stretched too thin for checking too many things at once leading to be overwhelmed, passive). It's also not exactly a particularly splashable pokemon.

I'm fine with the idea of waiting just a little longer to see if people innovate further and come up with checks, but it's also important to monitor how people feel towards the tier going forwards as while overall feelings are a bit better post Volc, they still could be better and there is still notable distaste for certain aspects of this tier which is why I believe there is only so much waiting that can be done before something has to break.

nah man tinkaton's the best pokemon in the meta. not only does she have the best typing ever, her signature move has a big number attached to it! how could you possibly not run her? also, look at her abilities. own tempo makes her completely immune to confusion, the most broken status condition. mold breaker lets her ignore any ability except for most of the good ones, so she can click thunder wave on gholdengo and definitely do other things that i'll think of later. and of course there's her best ability, pickpocket, which lets her run a shitty consumable item and then steal a potentially useful item if she gets hit! who wouldn't want to be able to remove their foe's item? obviously tinkaton has no other ways to do that, so pickpocket is always the best and most optimal thing to run on her

in all seriousness, we should really be looking at things less as "tinkaton is actually good" and more as "this is how dumb darkrai is"

 

[GummyRowlets]

nah man tinkaton's the best pokemon in the meta. not only does she have the best typing ever, her signature move has a big number attached to it! how could you possibly not run her? also, look at her abilities. own tempo makes her completely immune to confusion, the most broken status condition. mold breaker lets her ignore any ability except for most of the good ones, so she can click thunder wave on gholdengo and definitely do other things that i'll think of later. and of course there's her best ability, pickpocket, which lets her run a shitty consumable item and then steal a potentially useful item if she gets hit! who wouldn't want to be able to remove their foe's item? obviously tinkaton has no other ways to do that, so pickpocket is always the best and most optimal thing to run on her

in all seriousness, we should really be looking at things less as "tinkaton is actually good" and more as "this is how dumb darkrai is"

Darkai is so balanced my man. I mean so many switch into it safely.
- I mean ting lue for one (+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Darkrai Focus Blast (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 403-475 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
- AV Prim destroys quite easily and lives any one hit (+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Poison Darkrai Sludge Bomb (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 427-504 (117.3 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO).
- Zama outspeeds and kos and def can't be easily chipped down (+2 252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb (90 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 179-211 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
- Clef has unaware so it switch in no matter what so it can't be two shot (+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Poison Darkrai Sludge Bomb (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 283-334 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
- Kingambit must destroy since it resists ice beam , dark pulse, and is immune to poison RIGHT?/?????? (252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Poison Darkrai Focus Blast (120 BP) vs. 80 HP / 12 SpD Kingambit: 730-859 (202.2 - 237.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
Yeah, no matter what you do, Darkai coverage is typically just too good for any decent switch-in. You just to pray it doesn't have the right coverage for your team. Anything that can check typically loses to coverage or needs to be in near perfect health to win like ting-lu. Just invalidates so much with its speed tier as well. I do think we should wait since most likely it being suspected won't result ina ban just yet. We need more time for it too cook, and let people start to realize Darkrai BS.

 

[Heatranator]

Bulletproof Ursulana w Tera Fairy blanks Darkrai

Firstly: +2 252 SpA Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Ursaluna: 428-504 (92.2 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Secondly: If anybody uses bulletproof ursaluna, I am coming to your house and putting you in a mental asylum.