People aren't terrified of getting rid of it. They just don't think it's banworthy at this moment. Consider that instead of attacking strawmen. I said this already. There are more pressing pokemon and Gambit has accessible widely splashable and useful counterplay. It's centralizing but far less problematic than oth
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
People aren't terrified of getting rid of it. They just don't think it's banworthy at this moment. Consider that instead of attacking strawmen. I said this already. There are more pressing pokemon and Gambit has accessible widely splashable and useful counterplay. It's centralizing but far less problematic than oth
i'm getting whiplash from the amount of people who are saying that one thing is broken then pivoting on a dime to saying another thing is broken. if we want to suspect Volc, then talk about Volc only.
Let's see what other massive metagame threats can pick and choose their counterplay based on their coverage move or set:
(Tera Flying/Fairy + Tera Blast or even normal moveset screws Tusk and Zama to an extent over, Tera Dark nukes stopgaps to the other Teras)
(Glowking just dies to a Tera Dark Knock Off, and you aren't switching in Blissey on a CC or like Dozo on a Specs Moonblast)
(Play Rough kills Dragons, Knock provides consistent utility against checks like Skarm)
(Tera Ground breaks through Tran and Glowking just as you mentioned)
(EQ and Taunt sets have wildly different counterplay, and you could just lose if you don't have counterplay to a set)
(Tera Fairy is a good defensive typing overall and helps vs. Gambit's Sucker Punch, while Tera Flying wins vs. Lando and Tusk)
The point is that Volc being able to pick and choose its checks is not a unique problem to it. Tera, the mechanic itself, lets many offensive threats choose their checks, and to suggest that Volc is the sole benefactor of this is just not true. It doesn't really do it any better than others as well; all of the things I just listed can be potentially game-ending if given a free turn thanks to Tera.
I also don’t understand this as a factor of bans. Finch mentions it a lot for problematic pokemon, but if it’s truly a factor then the meta would need like 6-10 bans to be fixed lol. This whole gen is defined by being able to cheese your way out of typically poor match ups. However, I do think Volc’s reliance on Tera Blast makes it more acute than other mons As it gets to choose counters to be super effective agains.
the thing about that is, well…
…yeah. not to mention the stuff that would need to go if all this went (lookin at you, dragapult). "we need like 6-10 bans to fix things" is not a ridiculous concept. we easily hit those numbers during pre-dlc and dlc1 and it wasn't even enough
I don't see why there are people who think Raging Bolt is broken. Ground-Type Pokemon are immune to Thunderclap, and Encore really ruins Raging Bolt's day. Dragon-Type attacks also having an immunity forces the Raging Bolt user to predict, and Thunderclap fails against faster priority. Sure, many of the tiers Ground-type Pokemon don't like taking a Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor, but you can avoid that interaction from happening with your plays. I find Raging Bolt to be a healthy addition to the meta.
The meta absolutely doesn't need 10 more bans to be a good meta as some people are suggesting.
The meta absolutely doesn't need 10 more bans to be a good meta as some people are suggesting.
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the thing about that is, well…
…yeah. not to mention the stuff that would need to go if all this went (lookin at you, dragapult). "we need like 6-10 bans to fix things" is not a ridiculous concept. we easily hit those numbers during pre-dlc and dlc1 and it wasn't even enough
I think Volc and Ogre are fair for this list, and Kyurem is also contentiously broken (imo) though not as easy to use which can limit it, but the rest I wouldn't put there right now. Gouging I think people have figured out by now (unless I missed something recently that changed), Roaring Moon I think could be broken down the road and Kingambit is possible too. But I wouldn't list Raging Bolt at all. It's nowhere close to broken honestly and a pretty nice part of the tier.
Yeah, I don't think ground types actually counter it. Clod seems like its a good answer, but its still 3hit ko'd. Only really offensive grounds can beat it, but even then they can't switch into the dragon moves. Lando-t has to go 252+ attack evs in order to ohko it with e-quake, you know, the mon with 145 attack? Raging bolt is really dumb, and I think its fair to put it on the list of brokens.
The tier has HAD a solid 15+ total bans so far... I don't, I don't think that this exactly works for an OU context. But yk, I personally am vibing with the meta with the same ol duo of Clodsire + Dondozo just walling setup/offensive pokes so nothing feels that broken. Except Kyurem. Freeze-Dry is my worst nightmare. Kyurem aside, you don't understand the guilt pleasure of blanking and stalling offense like they're a minor inconvenience
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I never said that all Ground-type Pokemon counter Raging Bolt as I did indicate that many of them don't like taking its Dragon-type attacks. Clodsire might get 3HKOed, but it has reliable recovery and forces out Raging Bolt easily with the threat of a Toxic, which will mean its one-time Booster Energy boost is gone. Ting-Lu handily beats Raging Bolt. Just because only the strongest Ground-type attacks actually OHKO Raging Bolt doesn't mean it's too much for the tier given the prevalence of Spikes of how hard-hitting the tier is. Raging Bolt is not that hard to contain or limit to just 1 KO.
What I meant was 10 more bans. It's clear we do not need THAT many more bans for the meta to be in a good spot. Mons such as Raging Bolt and Iron Valiant are just not even remotely broken, and there are not that many Pokemon that we desperately need to ban right now. Getting in a ban or two will help significantly with the current issue of threat saturation.
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As somebody who has used clodsire in battles, trust me, it is not an answer to raging bolt. It has to stay in tip-top shape in order to deal with bolt, as if it even drops to 70% health, something that is not unreasonable for it to be at, it can be two hit ko'd by bolt. It has to constantly recover off the damage, and then its let something else in for free. Ting lu is the only 'consistent' answer to raging bolt, every other ground type is ruined by it. Tusk can ohko it, but its threatened by dragon pulse on the switch.
It is extremely hard to limit bolt to one ko since its counterplay is so predictable, sure, you can try status move shenanigans with it but that's a fine line to walk on. Ground types are forced to switch in and they have to trade themselves if they are not called tusk in order for another mon to revenge kill it. It is at worst, trading itself for a mon and a half, that's absouletely not healthy. At best, it will sweep the entire team because it got one predict right.
Iron Moth isn't good enough as speed control, but it could maybe be a good fire type attacker to have on the archetype. It's also good that it has Psychic coverage. I don't know if Tera Grass is what I would run. If you think it's your rain answer, my advice is don't think that. However, I do think it could be good if you just focus on what it already does well and what coverage to run.
Sceptile is probably bad and still isn't faster than rain Barraskewda. But in general, the problem with these Unburden mons is you typically need to set up with them. So you take a turn to set up terrain and another turn to SD. Probably at least a turn in between that to sac a mon or switch around and safely get it in. It just takes too long to get it going to be useful enough as a revenge killer. You can still potentially use an Unburden mon as a sweeper. But you probably need to think of it like that and not really as speed control.
The other issue is you can only proc them once. Rillaboom can come in and scare out something like Barry as often as you need. You don't have to worry about if your terrain turns have run out yet to proc Unburden or use a priority move. You don't need to care if an opposing mon like Tusk used Ice Spinner. You just come in and immediately threaten the priority regardless of the state of the field before. Speed tiers aside, there is just no way a one time Sceptile is going to continue to be advantageous against a skilled rain player who is Flip Turning all over the place with Barraskewda. You got one chance with Unburden mons.
One of the issues I have come to have with typical Psychic Terrain teams is they tend to be so HO that they lack immediate power. Also, everything needs too much time to get going. Yes, that's exactly what HO does by spamming setup sweepers. But as an HO archetype, Psychic Terrain is very mediocre compared to other forms of it like screens. A pure HO approach is probably not what the archetype needs.
The great thing about Iron Moth can come in right away with BE. No setup needed. I feel like this could potentially work. The Fire STAB is much appreciated.
Gee, it's almost as if Tera made what was once a completely broken characteristic seem common place. Nothing to see there. Gen 9 is perfectly balanced.
Timid sceptile actually outspeeds adamant barra in rain. With both of there abilities not active, sceptile is exactly one point faster than barra (372 to barras 371). Thus, it can actually outspeed barra. If they are going timid barra, I think you should just give up because they outplayed you.
Sceptile probably still isn't good, but it is an option.
Correction: 240+ atk EVs
240+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 408-480 (100.2 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With rocks you only need 60+ atk EVs and its not to put it in range in practice.
60+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 360-426 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I’m actually interested in seeing if offensive Lando will catch on with the pace of SV OU slowing down.
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 408-482 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Huh, I guess calcs are weird. Oh well, guess I was wrong. Offensive lando-t could be cool, I did use nasty plot lando-t right before DLC1 occured.
Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Sludge Bomb
- Nasty Plot
I would probably swap out psychic for grass knot, but it could work out.
Oh, you meant Jolly Sceptile versus Adamant Barrascewda? I mean, that's a gamble. I don't like the idea of gambling the rain matchup on what nature they are running on Barry. Furthermore, Sceptile isn't necesarrily going to love Jolly itself since it only has 85 base attack. You might need Jolly anyways for stuff like Roaring Moon, though.
Maybe you could use slowking (not glowking) on the team. It can take a tera water barra liquidation, and has a chance to live two. Meanwhile, you can use expanding force to ko it back, meaning it isn't dead weight. You do let moon in somewhat, but scald is a bit if an issue for them.
A set like this could work.
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chilly Reception
- Expanding Force
- Future Sight
- Scald
0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 206-246 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 202-238 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring in Psychic Terrain: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire in Psychic Terrain: 178-211 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Psychic Terrain: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking in Rain: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
It has suprising amounts of damage, and helps a ton in the rain matchup. Plus, future sight support is always appreciated.
Hi! So I have commonly only used balance teams, but I've been wanting to experiment with boots spam team but realize many don't have the common breakers such as specs/ banded pokemon or any other way they increase damage. How do they fill up the role of breakers on a team if they cannot run choiced items? I thought every team needed a breaker to make progress against stall and make holes against balance structures.
They always run a Knock-Off user (usually Weavile or Meowscarada) that can remove opposing Heavy-Duty Boots, and force switches through their defensive/offensive mons to constantly chip the opponent down.
I'm sorry to say this as I have nothing against you as a person, but a lot of your posts just aren't correct. Clodsire is absolutely an answer to raging bolt, and it's not the only one in the tier either. If an opponent hasn't sent out their bolt yet then a good player should know to keep clodsire healthy. All you have to do is toxic it and scare it out, once booster is gone its over for bolt. Even water absorb clod can handle that job if played correctly. In general though I use iron treads who can take any non-weather ball raging bolt variant. I've lost to raging bolt sure but it was my own fault and it came down to 1v1, I've never been swept by raging bolt because at worst you sack 1 pokemon and bring in 1 of the 6 ground types in the tier (or excadrill) and beat it. Half of them don't even care if bolt tera fairies
I used clod for a while on a team, but I was forced to use lando-t because it actually dealt with it. The bolt player can easily stack on special threats and unless I'm using stall (which I was not in this case), clod is going to be the main answer to said special threats. Again, all it needs is a bit of chip and its not going to be answering it. Sure, toxic helps against bolt, but it isn't a concrete answer. Maybe we are facing different people, but everybody always seems to stay in on clod with bolt and it still destroys it because it is 3hit ko'd. I tried to make clod work, but it simply didn't. When I switched to lando-t, things got better, but it still had to be careful.
Treads is definetely a good answer to bolt, and I'd say one of the better ones. However, it is a mid tier mon that competes a lot with tusk. It is definetely an answer to bolt, and I didn't consider it. Plus, tera flying bolt sits on all those grounds, as now it gets a free dragon pulse off.
I believe the only 'true' answers to bolt are ting-lu, treads and maybe tusk. Even then, tera flying can screw them over.
I tend not to run any variant of the the slow twins on this archetype because you are already worrying about common Psychic weaknesses. It's maybe possible to build more of a balance Psyspam team instead of the normal HO kind. You could maybe use that over outright obsessing over speed control. I don't know what other matchups you would need regular Slowking for, though, and if enough of those are helpful where it is worth running it. I tend to run Hatt if I'm running any bulky psychic type on Psyspam because hazards. The U-turn weakness also concerns me a little.
My adaptations have been mostly to push Psychic Terrain teams more towards a hybrid with offense since I feel like this solves some issues with the archetype. The closest I have come to making a defensive core was to begin my experiment with Psychic Seed Gouging Fire. More testing is needed. Is Slowking/Gouging Fire a good combo? I don't know. You could maybe add a Grass type to form a Fire/Water/Grass core, but you might not want the extra U-turn weakness.
I don't know. My first instinct is to not run it. But one would need to scrutinize Slowking and other possible defensive options more to be sure.
This isn't really an answer, but one thing I feel should be mentioned is that you don't necesarrily need to run full boots spam. Depending on how your team is built, you could make a hybrid style where some mons can afford to run more offensive items like BE or Choice Band. As long as enough of them run HBD or are hazard resistant where you can pivot them in and out while you jockey for positioning.
I missed u guys
Also volcarona = bad, maybe tera fairy is ok or when kingambit not on every team
Also volcarona = bad, maybe tera fairy is ok or when kingambit not on every team
Uh, so thoughts on breaking swipe gliscor? I used it in a natdex stall team, and here it should also be good. You lower the opponents attack while attacking, meaning you aren't as passive as sometimes gliscor can be. It can even live two tusk ice spinners if its at full health and tusk gets anything other than the highest roll.
Turn 1: Tusk uses ice spinner, that deals 74% to gliscor and you breaking swipe, lowering its attack. You recover 12% health at the end of the turn. Gliscor is now at 38% hp.
Turn 2: You protect, tusk does no damage, you heal a further 12%. Gliscor is now at 50% hp.
Turn 3: They ice spinner, -1 tusk ice spinner can do a max of 50% damage, so it has to get a high roll in order to ko gliscor.
Everything else it can kinda sit on. With knock to get rid of lefties, it could be really disruptive. Against something like gouging, you are constantly reducing its attack, meaning it can't attack you without dealing a lot less damage.
I could see a set like this work
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water/Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Breaking Swipe
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance/Earthquake/Spikes
Only really stuff like gambit or weavile could beat it 1v1. It sounds like a really disgusting set. I could even see sd on it to make it a really great sweeper that prevents sweepers on its own. Kinda like a counter-sweeper. Other moves are more standard.
Turn 1: Tusk uses ice spinner, that deals 74% to gliscor and you breaking swipe, lowering its attack. You recover 12% health at the end of the turn. Gliscor is now at 38% hp.
Turn 2: You protect, tusk does no damage, you heal a further 12%. Gliscor is now at 50% hp.
Turn 3: They ice spinner, -1 tusk ice spinner can do a max of 50% damage, so it has to get a high roll in order to ko gliscor.
Everything else it can kinda sit on. With knock to get rid of lefties, it could be really disruptive. Against something like gouging, you are constantly reducing its attack, meaning it can't attack you without dealing a lot less damage.
I could see a set like this work
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water/Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Breaking Swipe
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance/Earthquake/Spikes
Only really stuff like gambit or weavile could beat it 1v1. It sounds like a really disgusting set. I could even see sd on it to make it a really great sweeper that prevents sweepers on its own. Kinda like a counter-sweeper. Other moves are more standard.
Eh, I think Facade/Eq far outclasses on SD sets, as you need every bit of power you can get. Meanwhile, on more defensive sets you'd rather run Toxic, for reliable damage against a lot of mons (Tusk included). You're right that you can beat Gouging with it, but I don't think it's really worth dropping Toxic for it.
We are discussing two potential suspect candidates internally
Alright, Great Tusk and Slowking Galar will finally be banned. Too long have they been scourges on the OU metagame.