Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )

[JackRG]

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Remember to do your part!!
Thanks a lot for the survey finch!

Done

Suprised to not see Ghold on the survey, feel like a lot of people have been complaining about it recently. Also Walking Wake? I haven't played the tier that much recently, has there been any developments with it?

Also why is Moon on the survey lmao, nothing has changed

 

[Avira]

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Done

Suprised to not see Ghold on the survey, feel like a lot of people have been complaining about it recently. Also Walking Wake? I haven't played the tier that much recently, has there been any developments with it?

Also why is Moon on the survey lmao, nothing has changed

Gholdengo will probably never be on a survey again. It has had 0 traction for a ban anywhere aside from a small portion of people on Smogon's forum and the Stallcord.

I know you believe Roaring Moon is hideously broken, as do I, but there's no need to include the "lmao" as that's getting you in trouble with infractions 'cause of the tone of your posts. Need to chill out a bit if you don't want to get banned.

 

[olamomalo]

Fun 6
I probably would have this even higher. This generation has been very fun to built the whole time. It’s very dynamic and interesting. Play can be a little volatile and there are matchups issues.

Competitive 4
Anytime regenerator pivot crap is good, I find things really stupid. It just devolves into hazard+knock “games” and breaker spam.

Gambit 4
Always been cheap.

Moon 5
Moon meta best meta. A sweeper + knock breaker in one would do wonders to suppress a lot of lame fat stuff and also bring in natural answer to cheesy DD Tera sweepers like dragonite and kyurem. I find this way more interesting than dragonite.

Ting Lu write-in
Idk why we’re still ok with a Pokémon that takes 10% net from iron moth. Way too good at getting hazards up and just too bulky. Zama would be next on chopping block after that; notice how all the Tera blasters are fairy or flying?? Hmmm

Rest idk. Nothing above 3
Dnite is worst of the bunch. DD kyu is goofy. Oger not a problem. Gliscor annoying and cheap on veil, but non issue. Wake on sun is lame for HO to deal with, but there are answers and sun is not that common. I mean, go after ursaluna is that’s why this is listed.

 

[Moyashi]

Survey time wooo

Metagame Enjoyment/Balance/etc: 6 (maybe like 6.5ish?)
I don't think the tier is in a terrible state let alone unplayable, far from it. It's leaps and bounds better than many past iterations of the tier. That being said, I think there is an oversaturation of high grade threats to prepare for, many of which packing high versatility which complicates matters. There are specific Pokemon I think are especially guilty of being tall asks in the builder to prepare for, or just exert so much pressure and are incredibly strong in game anyways, which for me does lead to frustration at times. Some specific Pokemon are especially standout in this regard.

4
I think it's time we seriously address this Pokemon. Dragonite may be seen as a "Superglue" for a huge amount of teams, but at the same time it continues to reinvent itself with a seemingly infinite pantheon of set possibilities, making preparing for it a nightmare at best. Right now it's the poster child for Tera Blast abuse, and its ability to mix and match movesets, Tera types and items gives it unpredictability that isn't matched by anything in the tier. and it's so regularly pulling off nonsense. What positives it does bring, to me are outweighed by the major strain it puts on the builder and the battle, and its ability to handpick what beats it on a whim isn't desirable for the tier going forwards.

3 (more of a 3.5 but can't pick that)
I've been growing less fond of this Pokemon as of late, as despite its relatively straight forward approach and comparatively lower versatility (next to monsters like Dragonite anyways), it manages to still win games that seem hopeless. It's not that it's hard to prepare for, it isn't. But even teams that are well prepared for this mon on preview have been shown to be capable of losing to it. And I question if that really is balanced or healthy in reality.4

3 (also more of a 3.5)
I'm pretty vocal about not liking this mon's impact on the builder, I don't think I ever will like it. It's just lower in the priority for me right now as other stuff I think are more problematic. The offensive shifts in the meta also don't do it many favors so it comes off less crazy.

4
This is another mon that just always puts in work and lately it has felt more wild despite not even changing too much, other than use of sets like AV and moves like Body Press for some specific targets. Prep for this isn't impossible or extremely awful, but it does ask a lot, and much like Gambit I find that even pretty prepared teams can have problems against it, and it has felt really strong lately.

2
I'm actually really confused why this is here, and I admit I could have missed someone fill me in on this? It is still frightening under Sun, but has something changed?

2
I think it's just not a problem atm. Strong but there's enough tools to handle it and I don't think it's too restricting to prepare for.


So I answered quickly and actually forget what I said for this but I think (and hope) I remembered to score it in range of "no don't touch this mon". I'm also really perplexed why this is on the survey. It was banned fairly and cleanly a while ago (the second time this gen), and I really don't see what if anything has changed to make it any less frustrating. And it doesn't bring anything of value to the tier, especially when there is already a long list of threats to prepare for as is.

 

[Magcargo]

Dragonite: 3
Kingambit: 1
Ogerpon-W: 3
Kyurem: 2
Walking Wake: 2
Gliscor: 3
Roaring Moon retest: 3

Write-ins: Tera Blast, Stored Power, Terapagos-Terastal Form (Stellar Form banned)

I only gave Dragonite / Ogerpon-W a 3 because, while I don't believe they should be banned, there are enough complaints from others that maybe a test or something is warranted.

#neverbangambit2025

I gave Roaring Moon a 3 because I am still on the fence on whether the post moon ban meta is better than pre-ban meta. I don't really like a lot of the new cheesers that rose up in its place, but I also hated moon so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Don't care about the outcome on it that much.

IDK why Wake is on the survey but it is kinda an annoying bottleneck on building. Still, sun is fishy and its manageable with good play so idc too much.

 

[Finchinator]

How much do you enjoy SV OU right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)? 8 -- I am having fun playing and building in the metagame regularly. I do not feel a pressing need to ban anything, but am openminded. It definitely takes a lot of reps and a decent amount of building attempts to increase your form, but I love the grind and I find it to be very rewarding. I think that everything has solutions, but sometimes you need to get creative or think outside the box to cover all that you wish to. I enjoy this dynamic, but I recognize it can be exhausting to some people.

How competitive do you find SV OU to be right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)? 8 -- I think that there is still room to improve over time, but this is close to the best it has been in 2025 and perhaps all generation. Most of my answer to last question is mirrored in this. Dragonite can be a pain and Kyurem offers nasty upside, but we can abuse their flaws and make the most of opportunity cost. Definitely think arguments can be made on Dragonite being lame, Kyurem being nasty, Wellspring being limiting, or Kingambit still being a pain to contain, but nothing stands out as clearly broken to me.

How do you feel about Dragonite? 3 -- The most conventionally broken Pokemon in the tier, but I do think we have seen some slight shifts in terms of the uptick in Rotom-W, sudden sightings of Mandibuzz, resurgance of Tera Dark Foul Play Pech, etc. in terms of counterplay to most sets (Tera Fairy Blast does ding a couple of these though, but I find that set a lot easier to trade with than Tera Flying at least). Another thing is I think that cornering Dragonite teams that rely on it to Tera (Blast) has become easier now that awareness has risen. Obviously there are still some absurd games and it is not something we can dismiss, but I do not think it is an immediate suspect or ban for me. 3 feels most fair.

How do you feel about Kingambit? 3 -- Feels like it is perpetually a 3. Can be a dumb Pokemon with crazy game-ending potential, but it is not really pressed for checks/counters, it is possible to trade Teras with, and I do not think it puts a strain on teambuilding like Wellspring or Kyurem at all. Would be ok with another suspect, but do not personally support it. Closer to 2 than I used to be.

How do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? 2 -- Meh, I was definitely a 3-4 earlier in the year and I still think Ogerpon-Wellspring is a top Pokemon. I just do not think it is broken. I find offense capable of stifling it in the short term or limiting it to only so much damage in the long term while other styles have gotten creative in checking it. We see more teams with 2-3 faster Pokemon than just 1 with the uptick in Tornadus-T and utility Cinderace, Pech is in a great spot while running Foul Play more often again to help combat even SD Ogerpon-Wellspring, and other Grass types are in a pretty good spot with Rillaboom peaking, Amoonguss creeping back into relevancy, and Sinistcha doing well enough for itself. I am pretty close to a 3 still and get why some people feel counterplay is too thin though.

How do you feel about Kyurem? 2 -- I feel like Kyurem can be argued to be broken when you consider the crazy disparity in sets, but I think that you can find out a lot of information quickly, stifle most sets with offense, and certainly fit enough counterplay to at least find a decent path when using other styles. My fear factor here is running into the worst set at the worst time snowballing out of control, especially when facing DD or Substitute sets, but I guess I have adapted or maybe the tier has as I see fewer of these games than ever. I keep a close eye on Kyurem on Veil or Screens since this is the most obnoxious thing ever honestly, but to me it feels similar to its level the last year+ and that has not been quite enough to be actionable.

How do you feel about Walking Wake? 2 -- I wanted it included if you wish to ask. I find Wake on Sun to be obnoxious for offense. Primarina is cool, GKing can help, Water Garganacl or blobs can do the trick on balance, etc., but it can be really problematic for offense and I think Sun/Wake should remain on our radar. Do not support a suspect now and may never get to that point, but I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice in completely shutting it down.

How do you feel about Gliscor? 1 -- Does not feel close to banworthy right now. Maybe this changes if the pace of the tier changes, but not there right now.

How do you feel about a re-test of Roaring Moon (1 being adamantly opposed and 5 being strongly in favor)? 1 -- I still think it was broken then and not much has changed. I absolutely see the argument that some people like the tier better than and feel like more emphasis on checks to Dragonite (or even Kyurem) woulds happen if Roaring Moon is reintroduced, but I think the combination of brute force breaking with Booster Energy Knock Off (or even Taunt variants on top of this) with the sweeping prospects is too much for the metagame right now. Maybe others feel differently, I dunno.

 

[ego]

The status quo is to avoid banning moves except in special circumstances like listed above. And yet Shed Tail remained banned moving into DLC2 despite no longer fulfilling the requirements needed.

I don't agree with this point. You are really trying to make this argument that Shed Tail no longer meets the requirements needed to ban a move on the basis that only half its users are broken anymore, and I think this misses the mark. For one, if half of all Tera Blast users were broken because of their use of the move then it would have been banned on day 1. Second, I think you are much too dismissive of the Shed Tail users we never got to see. Sceptile does basically what Cyclizar does, force you to cover the sub-pass to multiple possible sweepers by outspeeding a good chunk of the meta. Yeah, Cyclizar is better because of Regenerator, but fundamentally what makes Shed Tail broken are the possibilities of Substitute and the potential for sweepers to make use of it.

The point isn't to open up discussion on whether or not Sceptile and Smeargle are broken with Shed Tail, you recognize that. The point is to illustrate that Shed Tail doesn't break Cyclizar and Orthworm because of unique traits that nothing else can compare to. If Shed Tail had, like, Substitute's distribution then tiering the move would be a constant game of whack-a-mole because basically any Pokemon with traits that allow them to function competitively would be able to leverage those traits, because Shed Tail itself is doing all of the work. Mind you, I would argue that the tiering policy as written is overly conservative on this point; if the OU council can recognize how dangerous a move can be based on its properties with two abusers then they should be able to recognize that it's the move that's the problem with only one abuser, but I will concede that this is a bit messy in the case of Shed Tail because there legitimately wasn't a consensus initially that Orthworm would be broken once Cyclizar got banned. It's true that nobody wants to deal with retesting Sceptile and Smeargle with Shed Tail now, but that's not because council hates it even while conceding it's not broken, it's because they think other things would be broken with it and the whole reason to have a council is to trust that their metagame knowledge allows them to be accurate in these judgment calls.

The reason for this is because the majority of the qualified playerbase [and frankly, the majority of the remainder] see it for what it is: an uncompetitive mess that enables already strong pokemon to have free switchins and block status. It's a rich get richer type of move, so it doesn't provide any real flavor to the meta either. It was a sensible decision to leave it banned despite the circumstances surrounding it changing drastically.

If you go back to the tiering decision here, you'll notice that this is not correct; Shed Tail was not banned for being uncompetitive. It was banned for being broken. It put too much of a strain on the metagame to require your entire team to be able to cover multiple Shed Tail recipients on any given turn in order to not instantly lose. You are correct that competitiveness is very subjective! And that's why it, to this point, has not been the basis of any new SV OU bans so far (excluding cross-generation bans, I guess).

Anyway, I'm not even opposed to the idea that Tera Blast is broken, I said this last time. But it got zero traction last time because leng loi was the only person that tried to argue that anything that isn't potentially problematic in its own right (Dragonite, Gambit, Kyurem, mainly) was made an issue because of Tera Blast. If anybody agreed with the premise that Tera Blast Rillaboom or anything else like it was a problem for the meta, they didn't say anything during the last discussion. Which is to say, it would really be appreciated if a top player actually wants to make a post this time to argue one way or another, would be kinda great.

 

[Avira]

On the survey, I'm not going to share all my responses, but I voted 6 for enjoyment, 6 for competitiveness, 5 for Kyurem (Fuck this mon so much), 1 for Roaring Moon (Don't ever want it coming back in a meta with Tera legal), and wrote-in Tera Blast.

 

[JackRG]

JackRG wake is the chief feels bad part of losing to sun, which is a prominent cteam choice in tournament play. Guessing that’s where it’s coming from.

Yeah that makes sense, sun in general has always felt really fishy to me

but there's no need to include the "lmao" as that's getting you in trouble with infractions 'cause of the tone of your posts. Need to chill out a bit if you don't want to get banned.

would removing lmao change the whole tone of the message? I guess I'll keep that in mind going foward

How do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? 2 -- Meh, I was definitely a 3-4 earlier in the year and I still think Ogerpon-Wellspring is a top Pokemon. I just do not think it is broken. I find offense capable of stifling it in the short term or limiting it to only so much damage in the long term while other styles have gotten creative in checking it. We see more teams with 2-3 faster Pokemon than just 1 with the uptick in Tornadus-T and utility Cinderace, Pech is in a great spot while running Foul Play more often again to help combat even SD Ogerpon-Wellspring, and other Grass types are in a pretty good spot with Rillaboom peaking, Amoonguss creeping back into relevancy, and Sinistcha doing well enough for itself. I am pretty close to a 3 still and get why some people feel counterplay is too thin though.

rilla isn't a wellspring switch when it takes like 70% from U-Turn, and takes 40% from whip (resist with 100hp/90def btw). Amoongus is ass, doesn't do anything besides kind of checking wellspring for a bit before getting overwhelmed by knock + hazards anyway. If its bulky SD foul play also doesn't kill after an SD. Sinistcha is good if its not knock but knock seems to only be getting more and more popular.

Also while I'm at it

Enjoyment: 6
Competitiveness: 3
Dragonite: 3
Kingambit: 4
Ogerpon-W: 5
Kyurem: 5
Walking Wake: 3 - I don't like mons that ignorantly get to click STAB moves for easy results, also agree its fishy as hell and can just 6-0 some teams
Gliscor: 2
Roaring Moon retest: 1

Write in: Ghold, Freeze Clause, Solgaleo Test, Lugia Test

 

[Finchinator]

rilla isn't a wellspring switch when it takes like 70% from U-Turn, and takes 40% from whip (resist with 100hp/90def btw). Amoongus is ass, doesn't do anything besides kind of checking wellspring for a bit before getting overwhelmed by knock + hazards anyway. If its bulky SD foul play also doesn't kill after an SD. Sinistcha is good if its not knock but knock seems to only be getting more and more popular.

In this paragraph alone, you mentioned: Knock, Power Whip, hazards (presumably Spikes), SD, and U-turn already. This is not to mention Ivy Cudgel, which is a staple on each set, and Play Rough, which is the most common coverage option due to the influx of Dragon types. Taunt, Trailblaze, Horn Leech, and Synthesis also see usage.

Obviously the opponent does not know what Ogeron-Wellspring is doing either, but the fact of the matter is that it cannot cover as much as many lead you on to believe. If Kyurem or Dragonite could run out all prospects in one, they would have been Ubers years ago. Wellspring is a top tier Pokemon without a doubt, but let's not pretend like it covers everything and there are not substantial trade-offs in play.

 

[JackRG]

In this paragraph alone, you mentioned: Knock, Power Whip, hazards (presumably Spikes), SD, and U-turn already.

I meant hazards is general, oger could be the spiker, but it could also knock the amoongus or pech or whatever to pressure them with spikes

This is not to mention Ivy Cudgel, which is a staple on each set, and Play Rough, which is the most common coverage option due to the influx of Dragon types. Taunt, Trailblaze, Horn Leech, and Synthesis also see usage.

Obviously the opponent does not know what Ogeron-Wellspring is doing either, but the fact of the matter is that it cannot cover as much as many lead you on to believe. If Kyurem or Dragonite could run out all prospects in one, they would have been Ubers years ago. Wellspring is a top tier Pokemon without a doubt, but let's not pretend like it covers everything and there are not substantial trade-offs in play.

Play rough is nice to have but tbh, I've stopped considering it entirely outside of some HO teams that need it to instantly annihilate whats in front of it (also even HO has begun to prefer taunt) people still use it but imo it will only become less and less common as people realize the dragons don't switch into oger well anyway, and knock is much better as the coverage move of choice, dnite is getting 2hko'd with rocks once you knock its boots, bolt only switches into cudgel once. It's nice for hydrapple but now that physdef is standard and lives 2 play rough anyway, knock off + hazards feels like the more consistent way to beat it anyway. All these other options also lessen the need for coverage, since theres a lot I'll go over them 1 by 1

Taunt - you don't need coverage when you can keep checks like pech low for later

Trailblaze/horn leech - just alternatives to pwhip, trailblaze negates revenge killers on balance like dragapult, horn leech is great for longevity and is downright heinous behind veil

Synthesis - usually on bulkier teams, oger is less on a timer to immediately break its checks when it can stick around, my recent rmt is a prime showcase of this

Imo all Woger needs to be an unwallable breaker is Ivy Cudgel and Knock, the rest really just help.

 

[Dragonair Bot]

Fun 9
I've been playing since gen IV as a hobbyist (shout out to the killer nacho for getting me into tge hobby) but this is the first time Ive taken it serious enough to play the whole generation and try to improve instead of playing around low ladder. This is the first time SV the meta has been consistently fun for me.

Competitive 7
I am unsure is it feels more competitive because I am better or because the meta is. I do feel now that when I lose it is much more because I misplay than because of matchup.

Dragonite 3 (or 4, I forget what I put)
Enough time has been given to the meta to develop and reveal this guy to be extremely versatile abd dangerous. With Tera blast being off tge table i think dragonite needs to be looked at.

Gambit 1
Only a problem because of threat saturation. Easy enough to prepare for

Wellspring 5
I think this already puts strain on the builder and more sets will continue to pop up in the future of the metagame than already exists. I think gambit only appears problematic because of hiw much Wellspring can wear down checks and nake progress. Taunt + encore+ trailblazer + sword dance +knock off + spikes + raw power = very difficult to play around, even when having a good guess if tge set.

Kyurem 5
This is the mon that still feels like a matchup fish to me. When I feel like i doht lose to misplays its usually this guy. (Ps i dont play HO and play more bulky styles so i realuze that colours my opinion). It feels like when you know fotm you can counter it but as soon as that starts switching and its a set that was popular last month it rolls me.

Walking Wake 1
I dont really play teans weak to wake so im not the most knowledgeable about it.

Gliscor 4
I think gluscor isn't broken but can be pretty uncompetitive in certain structures.

Moon 1
We don't need another mon that wears down checks to woger and gambit.

Ting Lu, malignant chain, garg write-in
I dont feel strongly myself about ting or garg but Ive heard pretty good arguments against them so wanted to lend ny support. I think malignant chain and garg aren't broken but can be uncompetitive.

Overall the meta isn't perfect to me, but does have some equilibrium to it. Personally I wanted Tera abd then Tera Blast gone, but with those staying I think the teur might be as close to balanced as it's going yo get, and it's fun for me so good enough for me personally.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Did not complete the survey yet but I'm just dropping a quick post in that I support a Roaring Moon retest and believe it's a better way forward than trying to ban more offense tools. I remember that sun offense team featuring that AV / Band Roaring Moon set, which brought a lot to the table in crushing iron moth HOs.

 

[Dhrabb]

Haven't posted here in ages but I've been lurking and felt like talking about the survey. It won't be very precise as I'm writing on my phone and don't have the best memory of my reasoning for scores, but I'll try to explain myself as best as I can

Enjoyment/Balance: Both 8. I enjoy the tier and I think it lets the better player win outside pokemon being pokemon or another factor which I wrote in.

Dragonite: iirc this is a 3 from me. I don't think it's completely broken, and I like the positives it brings to the tier over its negatives, but it can feel soooo dumb sometimes when you're playing/building offense. Main factor here is tera blast imo, but I'll get to that later. I saw a tour game where someone was down 3-6 by turn 7 and then won with Dnite later, that was funny. Guess what set that was.

Kingambit: I think this is a 2? I don't remember if I scored 2 or 1, but this mon is fine. Whenever I get swept by this I always think I got outplayed. It's fairly easy to check imo, it's the fact that there's threat saturation in the tier that makes it seem like you have to go out of your way to accommodate multiple checks to this. But when I'm building usually I can check it naturally with some slight adjustments which I think is fine for a top tier pokemon.

Ogerpon-Wellspring: If Dnite is a 3 then this had to be a 2, but I'm not sure if that's being completely honest. Maybe if I put Dnite as a 4 this would be a 3, but whatever. Best breaker in the tier by a mile, and top tier overall. But I think people think too much about its versatility and ignore that it can't do all of it at once. Most teams have found ways to deal with this mon by preventing it from getting free attacks off, which I think is good. It also brings multiple positives to the tier imo and has helped me build better as of late.

Kyurem: I don't think it's that broken in the traditional sense but I still gave it a 5. I don't like the dynamics it brings to the tier with its set variety, freeze cheese and subtect is just incredibly lame (not broken). May sound whiny, but whatever I don't like this mon in the tier I never use it either.

Gliscor: 1, this mon is perfectly fine. Very annoying to deal with on screens, but still not broken.

Roaring Moon/Walking Wake: I have to say I was very surprised and even laughed a bit seeing these two here. For Moon, it got banned with a pretty large majority, I'd like to know why it was included in the first place. That being said, I'm not entirely opposed to a retest if I hear some good reasoning, so I scored this a 3 I think. Wake however is a 1, I have no clue why this is here. Yeah it's unwallable on sun, but that's kind of always been the case. Balance and bulkier styles have little issue with this, and offense has multiple tools that limit it like Dnite, Prim, Oger, Valiant, Zama, Scarfrai, Dragapult, Samurott, Bolt and even nicher stuff like Volcanion, Latios etc. I don't think this'll ever be broken.

Write-in: Tera blast, similar to Kyurem (and a large part of Kyurem's kit in doing so) it's hard to argue it's broken outright but I hate the dynamic it brings to the tier. I just wish there was a suspect in one of the last few months to put the nail in the coffin for this topic in general. If it got banned, great it was broken and if not alright there you go no more discussion on this. Feels like an annoying hanging thread that imo plagues the tier.

 

[Kadiro]

Enjoyment: 8
Competitive: 6 (i wont give it more than that in a metagame with no open tera)

4
It would be manageable without tera blast, but with the ammount of teras that this thing can run it steals games way to often to consider it balanced.

3
Like i read above, gambit is a eternal 3. It has its roots way to deep into this tier for it to ever be banned. In my mind this is a GSC snorlax case: we all know its broken but we just deal with it. It has periods where it fells more broken than others but i think its here to stay.

3.5
Its becoming problematic again, its just way too good at making progress with knock off and uturn and its a burden to build with this in mind. Trailblaze bulky sets are also quite good and under veil is just nightmarish. Offense deals with her fine but i think the correct way to look at a metagame is thinking how a pokemon affects balance, and wogerpon is way to good at destroying it.

5
Speaking of destroying balance, this thing is super broken. Its literally impossible to prepare for this pokemon both in battle and in the builder. You either get sniped by the correct kyurem set for your team or it simply breaks it with freeze. I dont think this pokemon is healthy for the tier and it should be banned.

2
Broken on sun but thats it, i dont think that is problematic enough to consider wake ban worthy.

5
I may be alone on this but i think gliscor is extremely unhealthy for the tier and despite not being unmanageable at the moment it doesn't add anything possitive for the metagame. It walls and invalidates too many pokemon and strategies and its just too suffocating for the tier to deal with i think. I hate this mon and i really think that sv ou would be a much better and diverse metagame without gliscor.

1
I dont get this, it was a broken sweeper and nothing has change since it was banned. If we banned tera we could consider it but for the moment this thing must stay in ubers

 

[CooolTrainer]

Enjoyment: 7
Competitive: 7

I think part of gen 9 is that there are certain match ups that feel like you lost at preview. However, you need to balance that with not letting really slow balance overrun the meta. I disagree with people saying it already has, offense and HO have done really well in a lot of recent tournaments. I think Vert has been super creative with their builds.

3
I think I would vote DNB because of its ability as an anti-offense Mon with E-Speed, D-Tail, Roost, etc. It’s also very nice to throw on balance/BO teams to help deal with Oger. I think those positives outweigh its downsides. However, I totally understand why people view it as broken with Tera blast. Especially seeing how dominant it is in tournament. Tera flying and fairy are most popular right now, but whenever I lose to the Tera blast Ghost+low kick set, it doesn’t even feel like Pokemon lol.

3
Was torn between 3 and 4 but I find that while teambuilding it’s fairly easy to have a few half-checks against Gambit between Tusk, Zama, Lu, Molt, Valiant, and even more niche options like flame body Heatran.

4
It’s a pretty big strain on teambuilding. I find you basically need to have Dnite/Bolt on certain builds and hope to chip it for another Mon to take it on. The trail blaze sets are really scary because the chip->faster Mon strat stops working. It’s also frustrating if your Corv or Pech get crit and you’re SOL for stopping other physical attackers. I get why people would want to keep it in the tier though, Alo may become the number one Mon without it.

5
Really dislike this pokemon. I think its coverage, moveset options, and bulk make it an extreme strain in the teambuilder and is part of the reason certain archetypes will never thrive this gen. I see a lot of good sample teams and RMTs basically say that there’s nothing you can do against Kyurem and you have to hope you guess the set right. This seems uncompetitive to me. Not to mention the fact that freeze on such a powerful pokemon is a brutal mechanic that can eliminate you’re dedicated switch in.

2.5
Sort of broken when paired with Bolt and Venusaur, and it overwhelms your counterplay, since a Tera water on a SpD wall could be a death sentence against the other two. I don’t think that’s necessarily all on Wake though and moreso just a facet of protosynthesis, Tera, and sun.

1
I don’t see that many problematic Gliscor teams on the ladder right now (I’m typically around 1700). Maybe it’s the style I play, but I haven’t had many problems dealing with it. The toxic sets are more annoying to me than SD right now. SD often requires you to decide if you’re burning Tera or not which is a pretty big opportunity cost.

1
This had pretty limited counter-play, especially after the advent of Tera blast fairy, since that took away sticky barb clef. I trust better players than me if they want to retest it though.

 

[Avira]

Roaring Moon/Walking Wake: I have to say I was very surprised and even laughed a bit seeing these two here. For Moon, it got banned with a pretty large majority, I'd like to know why it was included in the first place.

Write-in: Tera blast, similar to Kyurem (and a large part of Kyurem's kit in doing so) it's hard to argue it's broken outright but I hate the dynamic it brings to the tier. I just wish there was a suspect in one of the last few months to put the nail in the coffin for this topic in general. If it got banned, great it was broken and if not alright there you go no more discussion on this. Feels like an annoying hanging thread that imo plagues the tier.

Roaring Moon was most likely included 'cause new OU Council member, fusien, wanted it to be. fusien has literally said in the OU room on Showdown that if you think Roaring Moon is broken you need to get good. It's likely not a coincidence that as soon as fusien joined the OU Council that there was discussion among the ranks of the OU Council for retesting Roaring Moon.

Yeah, I hate the dynamic Tera Blast brings to the tier, much like you do.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

enjoyment: 7
over the last 6 months we've started to get to a point where i'm actually feeling engaged playing this game again, but it's still a little too fishy with too high of a presence of broken nonsense for me to properly enjoy

competitive: 7
in terms of balance, this is probably the best spot the meta's ever been in, but we still have a long way to go before i can score svou higher than a 7

4
i'm still on the fence about dragonite and have been for a while, but i fully support a suspect of it. it definitely has a lot of elements i would consider problematic, especially in regard to its ever-expanding set diversity and the difficulty of actually guessing said set, but if you actually do guess the set right or carry a broad-spectrum check it's really really easy to play around. i don't know what i would vote in the actual suspect, but i put 4 because i very heavily support a suspect of the mon

5
fuck this mon

5
pretty much everything that can be said about waterpon has already gotten said. even that sentence is probably a repeat of something i've said a dozen times at this point. get rid of it

3
i'm still mad about what happened a year ago. i don't think i'll ever stop being mad about it. but as for the mon itself, i think kyurem is actually not that big of a problem right now, all things considered. definitely something to revisit in the future, but as for now i'd prefer we focus on waterpon, dnite, and of course kingambit if we ever actually get our shit together and put it back on the chopping block

1
i really don't think this guy is a problem at all. annoying, sure. braindead, yes. nightmarishly hard to wall, absolutely. basically a hard stop to either offense or fat depending on set, 100%. but a problem? i don't think so. i don't really like the "unga bunga me click one move and you die" dynamic, in fact i fucking hate it, but i don't think walking wake is good enough or splashable enough for me to consider an issue right now. it's almost exactly as consistent as sun is, and sun hasn't been consistent for a while

1
gotta say it's pretty funny finding this guy on here again. i honestly don't get it. it was a moderate problem a while ago but i think people have comfortably adapted to its presence here. the obvious big major weakness of gliscor is the simple fact that kyurem continues to exist, but there's a bunch of other littler problems for gliscor that compound to make it honestly not even worth putting on the survey in my opinion. it's another one of those mons that's just really annoying

a number too low to express in any existing notation
if the first tiering action in six months is undoing our last tiering action, which was itself a repeat of a previous tiering action that was undone, i will personally take control of the tier and ban it again my own fucking self

write-ins: gholdengo and [this post was last edited by a moderator 5 seconds ago]

 

[Fusien]

fusien has literally said in the OU room on Showdown that if you think Roaring Moon is broken you need to get good.

Ok clarifying that this is an exaggeration lmao, I'm open with my thoughts on that moon shouldn't have been banned but that's because of factors intrinsic to how moon works as a mon and its role on teams it used to be on (ill write a post later when I have time). There are obviously good players that don't want moon to be unbanned, its not a l2p situation.

I did advocate for moon to be included on the survey, and that's because, in addition to potential benefits to the meta I'll describe later, I've noticed that beyond just myself, rmoon has been brought up in conversations regarding the meta's state (i.e in comparison with SPL era, dealing with oger, etc.); it is also the most realistic unban mon imo, and enough time has surpassed where its fine for people to survey whether they prefer the meta with its absence or not.

On a different personal note, I am curious on if the qualified vs more general base results on this will contrast. I've often heard more pro-moon rhetoric from tour players than from the general base. This is of course analogous (it is still divisive among the former group), and since rmoon was not surveyed in 2025 until now, we do not have results to compare the opinion. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see on whether this difference of opinion exists, or if there is an overall trend that is observed in both.

 

[Dreadfury]

Sharing some of my votes although they might be a little different now than I voted a ~day ago:

Enjoyment: 9. Late-stage OU is always fun IMO. We're kinda at that point where all sorts of weird-ass shit is viable and I tend to be all for those sorts of metagames. I like metagames where half of UU is genuinely great in OU. I liked that state of SwSh and I like it here.

Competitiveness: I can't remember what I put for this. Probably like a 7? There's some cheese but I feel like it's never the sort of "the better player lost" sorts of cheese I've grown to expect. A LOT of matchup fishing going on overall, though, which could very easily bump this down in my eyes on a different day.

DNite: 3. I think it's problematic but I also think it serves an important purpose in this tier beyond just being super threatening with like 20 different DD sets.

Kingambit: 1. I'm never not gonna vote for a 1 for this by this point. You're pretty much passively preparing to not get swept by this and its defensive utility actively makes the tier better. I think it should always be on surveys, but I don't think this mon is problematic in the slightest anymore.

Wellspring: 3-4 leaning 3. It's definitely not the oppressive threat it was a couple months ago. It's still really unhealthy IMO, but it's much more manageable at the moment.

Kyurem: 3. I don't like this mon, I don't like what it does for this tier, and every time I blink a new completely different set starts doing stuff. Still has a unique enough defensive profile and Ice STAB is really useful in a tier like SV OU, but this mon is frustrating.

Walking Wake: 1. Finch's explanation about this mon makes a lot of sense and I do think this mon is extremely brainless into offense (you're clicking Steam and something's dropping like a sack of potatoes) but this thing's only as consistent as Sun is, and weather's inherently kinda all over the place this gen. This isn't anywhere near the caliber of, say, Archaludon on Rain and that's the closest thing I can compare this with.

Gliscor: 2, but I'd put this anywhere higher on a different day. I don't care much for SD sets right now, but those tried-and-true fat sets are madness-inducing to play against when the thing's vomiting out layers so regularly. It's shockingly consistent.

Roaring Moon: I said a 3 on the survey because I kinda liked that metagame more for a while, but I honestly feel like this is a solid 1. This tier does not have consistent Moon answers, and I'd take ten Dragonites over one of this mon any day of the week.

Write-ins: Only write-in I had was asking what in God's name Wake was doing on here, but Finch explained that after I already submitted it. If I filled this out later on I'd have mentioned a Terapagos clause (yes, I watched the Pinkacross video, but I'm honestly a big proponent of a Terapagos sans Tera as is) had I filled this out tonight instead of the night the survey dropped.

 

[1LDK]

fun 7
balanced 7
dnite 2
kingambit 1
oger-w 1
kyurem 3
walking wake lol
gliscor lol

roaring moon adamantly against and this is where I'll stop for something, I have said this before but not as publically. IMO, the reason why you can't have roaring moon in sv ou is because every roaring moon check loses hardcore vs gliscor, and every gliscor check loses to roaring moon. The only 2 who can reliably check both at the same time are corviknight and skarmory, but both of them are trash and easy bait. Both are physical attackers with knock and ice weakness. But the combination of Moon's power and Gliscor's defensive tools make answering both tricky, which stretches teams thin. You can't have both on the tier, is either one or the other, and for the looks of it everyone is voting for Gliscor to stay. If you want roaring moon in the tier? ban gliscor, if you want gliscor in the tier? keep roaring moon locked. The community has made its choice regarding this matter, and I for once agree with the general notion.


anything else? gholdengo
are you good at the game? no lol

 

[Tenebricite]

Regardless of its prevalence in the current metagame trends of SV OU, I firmly believe that Kyurem must be banned. The sub freeze dry sets will continue to be a menace to balance and limit team building creativity. Its probability to freeze its checks after successive freeze dries represents an objectively uncompetitive element in SV OU. Kyurem is completely ridiculous and I can only see SV OU being a more enjoyable and competitive metagame without it.

I urge you to rate Kyurem a 5 on the survey, suspect, and ban this aberration to the competitive spirit of our game.

 

[Dhrabb]

Write-ins: Only write-in I had was asking what in God's name Wake was doing on here, but Finch explained that after I already submitted it. If I filled this out later on I'd have mentioned a Terapagos clause (yes, I watched the Pinkacross video, but I'm honestly a big proponent of a Terapagos sans Tera as is) had I filled this out tonight instead of the night the survey dropped.

I kind of forgot about Terapagos too, which I got reminded of from the Pinkacross video. I definitely support unbanning it and would've included it in my write-in if I didn't have the memory of a goldfish

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I kind of forgot about Terapagos too, which I got reminded of from the Pinkacross video. I definitely support unbanning it and would've included it in my write-in if I didn't have the memory of a goldfish

same here. can you kind folks on survey duty please retroactively write this in on my survey as well

 

[658Greninja]

How much do you enjoy SV OU rn?: 5
How competitive do you find SV OU rn?: 4

I think the metagame is in a more balanced state, but laddering in SV OU is a series of Mickey Mouse ahh games where matchups determine games. I believe there are two culprits.

4
Dnite is the embodiment of my problems with SV OU. Numerous different sets, and a new one pops up every month. Lefties Tera Fairy Dnite remain the most egregious set. Multiscale not only makes it very doable for Dnite to get 2-3 boosts, but also makes scouting difficult for Offense and BO. Dumb MU fish. If banning Tblast was still on the table, I’d go for that cause witthout it, Dnite becomes 30% more honest.

1
I’ve recently voiced my feelings for Kingambit, but in short, Gambit is a healthy presence in the meta with ample counterplay (will go into that if prompted) due to many structures having natural responses to Gambit like Zama or Lando. Zama in particular pushed more Ghost or Fairy variants, leaving Tera Fire and Dark seeing less usage. Its also important to mention that Gambit’s setup opportunities are not really vast. It can find ways in on choice-locked Shadow Balls or Gking, but most other mons in the format have ways of crippling or severally damaging Gambit.

4
Most brainless mon in the tier. It legit only needs Ivy and Knock to break things. The best Wellspring counterplay is to use your own Wellspring. Broken STAB move with 100 BP and makes no contact, has perfect coverage, and can double as a support because why the fuck not? Its a problem for both Balance and even offense, because Wellspring scares off every rocker/spike setter in the tier. Wellspring is difficult to punish and with some running Synthesis, you can’t use the “just wear it down with hazards” argument.

2
Freeze is dumb as shit, but other than that, idt Kyurem is really an issue. I’ve seen more Scarf and AV sets, the former gets surprise kills on Pult, Wellspring, etc while the latter trades with almost every special attacker at full, but nothing that makes Kyurem broken. Unlike Wogre, you can use the hazard argument, because rocks are hella punishing for it without Roost in its arsenal anymore. Its defensive typing is also ass, so it doesn’t get free switch ins like Wellspring or Demonite.

1

my reaction to that information

1
SD Tera Blast Fairy tech from August is funny, but nothing crazy to start advocating for a ban. Unlike Wellspring, SD Gliscor is weak as shit without a boost and even with a boost it can still fail to pick up kills. Rillaboom returning to the forefeont also makes non-speed invested Gliscors tougher to use, thus Gliscor is more prone to big nuke dmg. Not to mention that G-Weez is still popular on the Balances its good vs.