Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Negative Charge]

Can we please get some kind of policy review discussion about specifically banning Terapagos-Stellar? It would be pretty comparable to the Ubers Mega Rayquaza ban, and while I know that Ubers and OU have different policies for banning things, the precedent does exist in some form. Terapagos-Stellar isn’t just Terapagos that gets to Tera, it literally gains 100 BST and its signature move literally changes type to become true neutral to everything; it’s an entirely different Pokémon. I don’t think Embody Aspect Ogerpon-Hearthflame is comparable, and even if it was, it was mainly Mold Breaker that broke it instead of Embody Aspect. Just banning a form doesn’t really feel like a complex ban to me, nor does it feel dramatically different from, say, “Zygarde 10% can’t run Power Construct”, where we banned literally the signature ability of one Pokémon, something we normally avoid doing, because it transformed it into another 700 BST Uber. I’m just kind of rambling at this point, but I just wanted to make a case in favor of a Stellar ban because I really want to keep base Terapagos, and I don’t think it makes sense to ban the whole Pokémon for the sins of one form.

Yeah the Power Construct and Mega Ray bans seems pretty much on point here. Just have a Terapagos clause.

 

[Red violet blue]

I am at 1724 when I start to write this, I don't even know what I'm doing here, but I give you my thoughts about the mons:

The most broken:

Really hard to ko, can reverse many games with cm spin + 2 offensive moves (for example: Earth Power and Ice Beam, or Tera starstorm with flamethrower or anything you want). It is way too strong with stellar tera, there is no defensive counterplay because nothing resists to it after tera, and it's hard to revenge kill it.

The other obvious broken mon:

:Deoxys-S: A very good suicide lead and screen seter in a ghold metagame, with access to psycho boost, e-speed, all hazards (except web), taunt, ice beam, t-bolt... I think it's too strong in this role.
There is also the offensive sets with nasty plot, or just with 4 offensive moves. It is easy to revenge kill with priority, but that's all. The mon is way too fast, with a perfect coverage, it is sure that Deoxys-S koes at least one mon, because of the insane power of psycho boost + boltbeam (we can also use stellar tera to make it even stronger)

The mons I have some doubts about (We can't be sure because the metagame is new) :

- I think it may be too strong with tera, but there are many ways to revenge kill it in this very offensive metagame. You must tera if you want coverage. Stellar tera gives it a very strong unresisted tera blast which boosts spattk and attk, but Serperior keeps all the defensive weakness of the grass typing. Serperior can also use classical sets without tera blast, but with a defensive tera. I think this mon should be watched closely (I mean it should be in the radar), because it is very strong and may become unpredictable.

- I'm not sure at all about this one, but it sweeps many games, and is completely unpredictable with tera:
Sd + Acrobatics + Cc + Flare Blitz/ Blaze Kick with Grassy Seed or Air Balloon
Or Sd + Fire move + Cc + Tera Blast/Thunder Punch tera elec/Knock Off tera dark/ protect tera fighting + life orb or leftovers.
The only mon who can win against all Blaziken is maxdef (only Adamant tera fighting life orb 2hkoes). It may not be enough.
However, needs two turns to be faster than everyone or it can be revenge killed. It can be hard to set up in this very offensive metagame. I think should also be watched closely, but not as much as .

This dd sweeper has less attack stat than many mons, but with dd, amazing bulk and great coverage, it's really hard to stop.
Earthquake + Dragon Dance + Heat Crash/Flare Blitz + Dragon Claw/ Scale Shot + Energy booster, or loaded dice, or life orb, or boots.
There is almost nothing who can win against this, perhaps defensive Great Tusk and Dondozo but that's all. With this great coverage, you can choose a defensive tera, or tera fire/dragon/ground/stellar.
However, it can be weakened by hazards and revenge killed by scarf or booster energy mon, or by , but it's hard because of the 100/121/93 bulk. I think this mon is the 3rd most broken, but I'm not sure.

This mon is completely unpredictable with tera, and deals clearly too much damage with supreme overlord. It still does the same as before, so I'm still pro-ban.

With gliscor, deoxys speed and def in the metagame, no new defogers, good as gold is way too strong. However, Terapagos can destroy ghold with the right set, and can spin, but this mon is broken. I think Deoxys-S will also be banned. Ghold also has a perfect coverage, great bulk, offensive stats and movepool.
I think players should keep an eye on ghold.

Honorable mention to , who is really strong and hard to ko, but its priority move has the same problems as sucker punch. I think this mon should be on the radar, but like I said, the metagame is just beginning.
Honorable mention to roaring moon who still does the same, but is clearly not the main problem right now.

Disappointing mons:
struggles in this very fast and offensive metagame, it is easily revenge killed, and struggles to ko many mons without life orb.
I didn't even ohko a with +2 spattk Dark Pulse (with boots).
This mon may become stronger in the future.
Same for , who is less strong because of all the dragons.
I think isn't a big problem right now, even with tera blast stellar contrary, because of the poor bulk, and because its speed isn't enough in this metagame.
Without Roost, Kyurem is clearly not as good as in gen8. Ghold and Kingambit are very strong against dd sets. However, in a veil HO, I used Kyurem and it destroyed many unprepared teams. It can be good with tera fire, but not as good as I expected.
Paradox can't win against Ghold and Kingambit without tera, it's very disappointing.

is useless, sorry, the king still doesn't get knock off, toxic, and defog back. is just better.

That's all! Enjoy the chaos!

 

[Axiemeister]

i do understand that a terapagos-stellar clause would be unprecedented tiering police in OU as every previous ban in OU was either an entire pokémon, or an item (hearthflame mask, mega stones) or ability (power construct) that effectively banned a pokémon with it. its only comparison is mega rayquaza and that wasn't in OU. but i can also see the pov that formes are different pokémon and therefore should be tiered on their own regardless of what policy measure ends up being needed. either way hm wow it's turtles all the way down huh

 

[Pokenar]

I literally made this account for the sole purpose of laughing at how broken Terapagos is. I am terrible at competitive Pokemon and I've been getting W after W just by leading with it, hitting CM, teraing, hitting Rock Polish, and dropping a starstorm over and over. I used to try to lead with Deoxys-S but found that just cutting to the chase and leading with Terapagos is the quickest way to win.

 

[Pando067]

i do understand that a terapagos-stellar clause would be unprecedented tiering police in OU as every previous ban in OU was either an entire pokémon, or an item (hearthflame mask, mega stones) or ability (power construct) that effectively banned a pokémon with it. its only comparison is mega rayquaza and that wasn't in OU. but i can also see the pov that formes are different pokémon and therefore should be tiered on their own regardless of what policy measure ends up being needed. either way hm wow it's turtles all the way down huh

We could just ban teraform zero (terapagos stellar's ability) and boom, it would technically not be able to tera because then it would breach the ban. easy peasy (this is partially a joke cuz that's prolly not how things work)

 

[Axiemeister]

ubers follows the same policy in *most* cases but id like to add that for mega rayquaza, that was an exclusive button only mega rayquaza gets instead of a universal button anyone can click. terapagos ofc gets a little more than gaining the stellar type when it teras but i think terapagos as a whole still should just be banned still

also i guess the move dragon ascent could have been banned - rayquaza doesn't need to use it, but does need to have it. the clause chosen simply saved that collateral, and it was a very understandable choice. terapagos-stellar really has nothing of the sort to separate it from terapagos-terastal, other than, as said, ban teraform zero, which kind of is a complex ban in a simple ban trenchcoat

hearthflame mask is not banned

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wait. it doesn't matter that nobody wants to use that item; how is ogerpon-hearthflame banned without banning its item, with a reasoning that doesn't open precedent to just banning terapagos-stellar? effectively you are banning only ogerpon from holding the hearthflame mask.

(let it be known i have no horse in the ban race, i just find tiering policy fascinating )

 

[Ghostly Nariisuu]

Darkrai lowkey gonna have to take a backseat for the time being until things settle down a bit, the speed creep of this DLC has been crazy so it outrunning stuff like Iron Boulder without booster speed could be valuable, but it's power is lacking without plot...
Also Terapagos being gone wouldn't do it any harm either, that thing doesn't sweep a whole team but it doesn't need to more than half the time.

 

[Delta4]

Just wanted to post my quick thoughts on my guy Archaludon, the new hero of Rain teams. Running a full HP and SPDEF spread with Assault Vest makes this thing nigh impossible to kill on either side of the spectrum, because by switching in on a special attacker you get the defense boost from Stamina or even just by living a psychical attack you get the boost and then Archaludon can snowball like crazy. You might think that even with an AV and full SPDEF investment it would be weaker on the special side, but this thing has lived hits it has no business living and makes things like Darkrai and Enamorus look like UU or RU 'Mons. I've also found with the right positioning that it stops most Terapagos and can halt Walking Wake and Iron Bolt, which have become near staples of its opponent Sun. It's boosting power with Electro Shot is crazy, and any time you hit it you also boost its Body Press meaning not only does it take hits like a champ from either side of the spectrum but can also dish them out on either side like a champ. To be far, I'm not super high on the ladder in terms of ranking right now so things could be different.
Here is the paste if you want to use the team, feel free to edit:
https://pokepast.es/1851074e7a095657
Quick explanation of the team (I did throw it together quickly so some things might need changing)
> because of its better SPATK stat but mostly its access to Hurricane and U-turn which are huge
deletes HO under Rain with Liquidation if positioned correctly and Tera'd, though could be a consideration if you find out you are missing crucial KOs; Barraskewda's extra speed is really important though
Teleport on this thing is insane, and T-wave can help prevent auto-losing to certain threats because even though it is SPDEF invested it can live Iron Boulder at +2, allowing you to Para it and revenge kill with Keldeo or Barraskewda
is here to remove hazards, set up rocks, and also to counter Terapagos
honestly, I thought it would be super weak until I started using it and it actually gets the jump on lots of offensive threats with Scarf and can pick up KO's under Rain quite frequently. Receiving Flip Turn was also a huge buff for this 'Mon and makes it a LOT better.

 

[Ehmcee]

wait. it doesn't matter that nobody wants to use that item; how is ogerpon-hearthflame banned without banning its item, with a reasoning that doesn't open precedent to just banning terapagos-stellar? effectively you are banning only ogerpon from holding the hearthflame mask.

(let it be known i have no horse in the ban race, i just find tiering policy fascinating )

This is because The Ogerpon forms are Out of Battle Form Changes, meaning you can bring them in as is into Team Preview. In Battle forms are typically a lot harder to tier, because Smogon's ban format aims to have most if not all of it's bans in the teambuilder, and have the least restrictions possible once in the actual battle.

Now there's some popular in battle transformations that have been restricted before, the main one being Mega Evolution, the main approach to banning those are to still give the user the most freedom possible once in battle.

For megas, we had a situation where:

If held item -> In Battle Button -> Broken Pokemon

This was solved by removing the first step, their held item. However in practice this was essentially just a ban of the Pokemon itself, this ban was fairly simple because it had no effect the game once in battle.

Now we're stuck with a situation with Terapagos, where the following is true:

In Battle Button -> Broken Pokemon

There's no way to stop the "Broken Button" from existing, meaning you'd have to either Ban the Pokemon as a whole, or make a Clause, effectively restricting players options once in battle.

TLDR:
Ogerpon-Hearthflame can be brought in immediately, because it's an out of battle form change, while Terapagos-Stellar isn't as easily tierable because it's an In-Battle Form Change, with no applicable teambuilder restrictions.

 

[Axiemeister]

TLDR:
Ogerpon-Hearthflame can be brought in immediately, because it's an out of battle form change, while Terapagos-Stellar isn't as easily tierable because it's an In-Battle Form Change, with no applicable teambuilder restrictions.

oh thank you for the explanation! i legitimately assumed the hearthflame mask was banned, but this makes a lot of sense as a policy. yeah, i have nothing for terapagos now, it would have to be a clause.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i think that this is one of the few scenarios in which a complex ban is entirely warranted because the situation itself is complex. the base form is clearly not broken and adds a lot of value to the tier as a spinner. it's not some negligible thing that nobody would miss, it would be serious collateral damage in a wholesale ban of terapagos. a clause preventing terapagos from terastallizing wouldn't be unprecedented or overly arbitrary—the same thing was done for mega rayquaza. some might argue that it's slightly harder to justify because tera is a universal mechanic, as opposed to mega evolution, but i consider what terapagos is doing to be entirely different from regular terastallization—it's effectively mega evolution with some wacky extra boosts. it's a unique problem that requires a unique solution to provide the most balanced and inclusive metagame. a clause wouldn't be hard to explain to new people either—"you can't tera terapagos". if you can explain the full extent of a clause in four words, i'd consider it accessible enough to not be a barrier to new users or cartridge players

 

[hidin]

im sure no one would miss base terapagos as it is quite mediocre and while it can spin it doesnt even do that of a good job at doing so. complex bans in general should be avoided in tiering since it opens up and entertains a lot of silly possibilities when it comes to bans (esp in this case where we are banning just one pokemon from terastallizing), so just ban the pokemon man. its not rocket science

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

I made the right call playing with Terapagos first because I knew it was gonna be the first to go from the jump.

Instant Weather/Terrain delete is funny.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Just wanted to post my quick thoughts on my guy Archaludon, the new hero of Rain teams. Running a full HP and SPDEF spread with Assault Vest makes this thing nigh impossible to kill on either side of the spectrum, because by switching in on a special attacker you get the defense boost from Stamina or even just by living a psychical attack you get the boost and then Archaludon can snowball like crazy. You might think that even with an AV and full SPDEF investment it would be weaker on the special side, but this thing has lived hits it has no business living and makes things like Darkrai and Enamorus look like UU or RU 'Mons. I've also found with the right positioning that it stops most Terapagos and can halt Walking Wake and Iron Bolt, which have become near staples of its opponent Sun. It's boosting power with Electro Shot is crazy, and any time you hit it you also boost its Body Press meaning not only does it take hits like a champ from either side of the spectrum but can also dish them out on either side like a champ. To be far, I'm not super high on the ladder in terms of ranking right now so things could be different.
Here is the paste if you want to use the team, feel free to edit:
https://pokepast.es/1851074e7a095657
Quick explanation of the team (I did throw it together quickly so some things might need changing)
> because of its better SPATK stat but mostly its access to Hurricane and U-turn which are huge
deletes HO under Rain with Liquidation if positioned correctly and Tera'd, though could be a consideration if you find out you are missing crucial KOs; Barraskewda's extra speed is really important though
Teleport on this thing is insane, and T-wave can help prevent auto-losing to certain threats because even though it is SPDEF invested it can live Iron Boulder at +2, allowing you to Para it and revenge kill with Keldeo or Barraskewda
is here to remove hazards, set up rocks, and also to counter Terapagos
honestly, I thought it would be super weak until I started using it and it actually gets the jump on lots of offensive threats with Scarf and can pick up KO's under Rain quite frequently. Receiving Flip Turn was also a huge buff for this 'Mon and makes it a LOT better.

Honestly I think Archaludon might even be good outside of rain as well, as I've been having a decent amount of success using it as a scarfer on non-rain teams, surprisingly pretty good mon, its really just Hoodra but way better in most scenarios minus the lower special defense due to the fact it can run scarf viably as well as the fact it hits harder and can even Thunder Wave or set hazards. Sure it has lower special defense but overall Archaludon is literally hoodra's big bro that actually can hack it in OU

Like seriously I don't see archaludon being below UUBL, because that mon would obliterate uu

 

[`ShadowTwo]

im sure no one would miss base terapagos as it is quite mediocre and while it can spin it doesnt even do that of a good job at doing so. complex bans in general should be avoided in tiering since it opens up and entertains a lot of silly possibilities when it comes to bans (esp in this case where we are banning just one pokemon from terastallizing), so just ban the pokemon man. its not rocket science

No, this ban won't open up stupid new possibilities, just like banning Mega-Rayquaza didn't open the way to stupid bans. It is completely normal to prohibit Terapagos from using Tera if it leads to a completely new and OP form.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

This is stupid and we shouldn't even be having this discussion if the actual broken thing TERA was gone and not terapogos or anything else.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

im sure no one would miss base terapagos as it is quite mediocre and while it can spin it doesnt even do that of a good job at doing so. complex bans in general should be avoided in tiering since it opens up and entertains a lot of silly possibilities when it comes to bans (esp in this case where we are banning a pokemon from terastallizing); just ban the pokemon lol

aside from that fact that people might in fact miss it, "no one would miss it" is probably not the mentality we want to be going into this with. one could argue that no one would have missed cyclizar* and orthworm if we'd banned them both instead of shed tail, or that no one would miss dugtrio, diglett and trapinch if we banned them over arena trap. it's an argument that puts things in the line of fire that don't deserve to be there

*yes, cyclizar still had some viable usage as a spinner and fast utility mon, but it definitely fits the description of "quite mediocre" more then terapagos does in my mind, so a "no one would miss it" argument should either apply to both of them or neither of them

This is stupid and we shouldn't even be having this discussion if the actual broken thing TERA was gone and not terapogos or anything else.

if you support a ban on tera, you should support a clause on terapagos—it gives you a stronger foundation for your arguments when the suspect comes. "we claused tera off of terapagos because it was broken with tera and not broken without, and it worked out well, so why not extend that to the whole meta?" that's precedent, it's tough for even a tera supporter like myself to argue against. i am giving you ammunition against my own position right now, please at least take it

 

[Floatstonemafia]

No, this ban won't open up stupid new possibilities, just like banning Mega-Rayquaza didn't open the way to stupid bans. It is completely normal to prohibit Terapagos from using Tera if it leads to a completely new and OP form.

That isn't even true. It didnt open the door to stupid stuff but absolutely rewrote precedent and lead to multiple changes to how ubers tiering functioned. Mray ban opened up a huge can of worms. It lead to the creation of AG and enabled ubers actually banning stuff which was a precedent then actually used.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

If we were to remove Tera, it seems like there wouldn't be a solid reason to keep this confusing clause in place. Considering no tera means that pogos stays the 0.1% less broken 650 bst version lmfao

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

This is stupid and we shouldn't even be having this discussion if the actual broken thing TERA was gone and not terapogos or anything else.

Terapagos is the ONLY one who gets a complete forme change when it teras. It is the exception to the rule, banning Stellar form specifically is completely fair.

When Hearthflame was too much, we banned it specifically and not Wellspring or Cornerstone.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Why would a clause on terapogos mean anything if i wanted tera to get banned its just a silly complex clause for a 700 bst mon being allowed into the tier for no reason whatsoever besides tera if there was no tera there would be no stellar form pogos

because a clause on terapagos is an immediate possibility and a suspect on tera is not. that'll a guarantee, but it will happen further in the future. if you focus on the now, you'll be able to use that clause to make a stronger case for clausing out tera as a whole in the suspect

If we were to remove Tera, it seems like there wouldn't be a solid reason to keep this confusing clause in place. Considering no tera means that pogos stays the 0.1% less broken 650 bst version lmfao

if a clause as simple as "you can't tera terapagos" is confusing to you, why would the clause of "you can't tera anything" not also be confusing?

 

[Codename C.A.T]

obligatory ban terapagod

Has anyone been using Raging Bolt aside from me? Haven't found it in any of the ladder games I've played but it has been really good. Switches into stuff like Rilla, got strong priority, most Grounds would really rather not switch into a Specs Draco, and you can run stuff like Tera Blast Fairy if you really need it.
Aside from my favorite giraffe, here's some brokens:

Wow I couldn't have guessed. Can run basically as much bulk as it wants to since you hit like 380 with no investment in speed. NP is horrifying, LO 4a is horrifying, just ban this guy. Lead sets aren't even good honestly.
IRON BUNDLE AND BAXCALIBUR IN A TRENCHCOAT
As expected, stupid with Tera. Lower priority than Deo-S and a certain turtle but still pretty broken. You get literally one free turn with this guy in gterrain and ok ggwp next game.
The man himself, the lowest priority broken because we have shit like Roaring Moon around to half check it but it's still like around that RMoon-Serp range in terms of brokenness. Just good enough bulk to live basically any prio that isn't Tera Grass Grassy Glide, commits several felonies against any Fairy that thinks they can switch in, it's just like...Darkrai, man.
You know why. You were here for the suspect. I don't have to explain.
It's prob worth looking into Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder, and a CERTAIN turtle soon, but for now, as long as Terapagod gets banned, I think we could have a playable meta.

 

[taziathegreat]

Not saying terapagos isn’t broken. But I’m surprised i haven’t seen people run the actual counters or checks to it. Like I’m not seeing any ting Lu or blissey, not really seeing any of the fast fighting types that out speed +1 and OHKO.

 

[bungeegum_420]

Wasn't Zacian Crowned banned in gen-8 before Zacian as a whole? It was an in-battle form, unless the only thing banned initially was the Rusted Sword
if it's the former, i think it's enough precedent for banning stellarpagos, if mega ray wasn't enough

 

[Ehmcee]

I think limiting Tera to certain users is an extremely efficient measure, while currently going somewhat against Tiering policy, I think it can solve certain issues with how Tera currently affects the metagame.

A tera clause stating "the following pokemon cannot tera" is nowhere close to being in the territory of ridiculous complex bans, is simple to understand and is a way to target the direct measure that makes certain pokemon broken (which wouldn't be otherwise).

They called me crazy months ago... but who's laughing now...