Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Eeveeto]

No, Tapus are like the worst thing that could happen to this Metagame. They would make Dondozo almost useless (Koko and Fini), not allowing it to sleep. As a result, literally 100% of Physical Attackers would become way harder to check.

Of course, Koko and Lele with Tera sound pretty broken by themselves and might be banned, but Fini would still enable all physical Attackers to get past bulky cores (especially since Fini also has Taunt, Nature Madness, CM + Draining Kiss or Whirlpool).

 

[PastaMechKaku]

Anyone got any replays of Wellspring vs HO/offensive structures? I gathered how it eats the glue that holds balance/stall together, though I'd like to know what it does versus teams that make it difficult to setup/ threaten it with faster mons.

 

[Bold School]

Ok guys to make this cancerous thread less cancerous, how will the meta change if Volcarona goes? Which Pokémon would benefit or not benefit?

I really don't buy the idea I have seen on here at times that suggests we cannot deal with Kyurem or other meta threats without Volc. It's just sort of a mindless solution to plug Volc on a team. But this doesn't mean we can't do without it.

Scizor could have similar Ice, Fairy, and Grass resistances as Volc for more offensive teams trying to check Kyurem and even Enamorus. You also resist Draco Meteor. The priority is good and would allow you to directly threaten Kyurem or Weavile in return. You'd have to build team structures around it a bit differently than Volc, but even Finch has said Scizor could be good in OU.

Other mons that could see space on offense or HO are Iron Moth and maybe H-Arcanine. You have worry more about the Ground weakness, but offensive teams just need the switch in more than anything. As long as you have them on teams with immunities and/or resistances to ground moves, it could work.

There are a lot of Fire mons in general that, while not technically OU, could be playable. For more defensive teams, Moltres is a really good option for Flame Body procs. Volcanion, Skeledirge, and Incineroar can work in OU on the right team structures. I don't know if Rotom-H can be good because the stats are lacking, but the resistances there are maybe pretty decent for a pivot.

The point is Volc's so called defensive utility isn't irreplaceable. You can find alternative solutions to make teams work. It isn't necessary for the tier at all and just puts more strain on the builder. Furthermore, the development of mons like Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon mean most teams that aren't purely offensive need to have multiple defensive backbones. Taking the most dangerous special setup sweeper out of the picture would really make building defensive cores a lot easier.

 

[crisiscloud]

I planned on not saying anything (because I don’t main Gen 9 OU and as such haven’t a thing to say) but I’ve read the entire thread and as the first metagame development thread I’ve followed in my years of playing, it’s been very captivating. Keep it up guys! ^_^ let’s hope there are changes for the meta in store soon :)

 

[BolTingBlazie]

No, Tapus are like the worst thing that could happen to this Metagame. They would make Dondozo almost useless (Koko and Fini), not allowing it to sleep. As a result, literally 100% of Physical Attackers would become way harder to check.

Of course, Koko and Lele with Tera sound pretty broken by themselves and might be banned, but Fini would still enable all physical Attackers to get past bulky cores (especially since Fini also has Taunt, Nature Madness, CM + Draining Kiss or Whirlpool).

Lele would be busted because tera fire and tera fighting lets it hit everything in the meta like an absolute nuke


Tapu Koko I doubt would be broken, but pretty obnoxious most likely since it would push some mons over the edge thanks to it making eterrain relevant

Fini would actually be cool since it has natural defog

Bulu is pretty ass

Also SV is done we aren’t getting any more pokemon, so thinking about what could have been isn’t doing any good really.

 

[Heatranator]

Bulu is pretty ass

Imagine if they gave this thing physical fairy stab and grassy glide. Rillaboom would be shaking in its boots.

 

[Venuesaur]

View attachment 624049
Imagine if they gave this thing physical fairy stab and grassy glide. Rillaboom would be shaking in its boots.

idk if he'd be better then rilla (bc of knock turn shenanigans) but he'd actually be competing with it in that case

 

[Ctann]

If Volcarona is truly op and people aren’t just upset they lose to it because they don’t want to prep for it, can you please share replays that shows how helpless it is making your teams.

I’m very curious to understand how Volcarona is considered actually OP or people just don’t like the idea of a pokemon that can use Tera to get +2 in 3 stats and break past traditional checks.

breaking past traditional checks isn’t an unusual concept in this Tera gen. So I’m assuming the pro-banners don’t like that it can runaway with games. I.e. when volc beats a team, it often does it in a way that evokes rage > getting +6 on QDs

my theory is volcarona’s biggest haters dislike seeing it get to +6 or whatever, since it can actually do that with its SpD getting boosted when it wins a MU.

checking volc is lite-mode when you compare it to checking Kyurem, probably the actual best special attacker RN. I’d even argue checking darkrai is more challenging right now, due to its diversity, it’s very effective at opening up teams if the set has a MU advantage against you.

But… it’s very “obvious” when you lose to a Volcarona that rolls over your team at +3. It’s a lot less obvious when you lose to a Kyurem/darkrai that was able to force shuffles on your pivots/tanks till something is weakened/broke, and then a partner with shared checks breaks through. In those cases you probably blame yourself for a wrong switch in.

you can also get multi-benefits from checking volc. For example if you’re running a check like SpDef pivot Gliscor, you get added perks of the raging bolt MU and surviving an ice beam from glowking.

 

[Moyashi]

If Volcarona is truly op and people aren’t just upset they lose to it because they don’t want to prep for it, can you please share replays that shows how helpless it is making your teams.

I’m very curious to understand how Volcarona is considered actually OP or people just don’t like the idea of a pokemon that can use Tera to get +2 in 3 stats and break past traditional checks.

breaking past traditional checks isn’t an unusual concept in this Tera gen. So I’m assuming the pro-banners don’t like that it can runaway with games. I.e. when volc beats a team, it often does it in a way that evokes rage > getting +6 on QDs

my theory is volcarona’s biggest haters dislike seeing it get to +6 or whatever, since it can actually do that with its SpD getting boosted when it wins a MU.

my theory is volcarona’s biggest haters dislike seeing it get to +6 or whatever, since it can actually do that with its SpD getting boosted when it wins a MU.

checking volc is lite-mode when you compare it to checking Kyurem, probably the actual best special attacker RN. I’d even argue checking darkrai is more challenging right now, due to its diversity, it’s very effective at opening up teams if the set has a MU advantage against you.

you can also get multi-benefits from checking volc. For example if you’re running a check like SpDef pivot Gliscor, you get added perks of the raging bolt MU and surviving an ice beam from glowking.

All the respect to you as a player but this comes off as rather disingenous. People are prepping for it. It just strains gameplay and building too much, and with only considering the most common sets (using dragon/ground teras). It has plenty of viable options and it simply isn't reasonable to try and handle that much for one pokemon who is as volatile as Volcarona is.

As for Kyurem, I don't like its presence any more than Volcarona's but at least it is possible to minimize its pressure through hazards and the fact it's speed tier is more exploitable. I would love to see it gone down the road but that doesn't mean Volc is less of a problem.

Being honest I don't really care for this attitude of "you just mad cuz it +6 and swept". It's not really a constructive comment or attitude and doesn't contribute to the discussion.

 

[Ctann]

All the respect to you as a player but this comes off as rather disingenous. People are prepping for it. It just strains gameplay and building too much, and with only considering the most common sets (using dragon/ground teras). It has plenty of viable options and it simply isn't reasonable to try and handle that much for one pokemon who is as volatile as Volcarona is.

As for Kyurem, I don't like its presence any more than Volcarona's but at least it is possible to minimize its pressure through hazards and the fact it's speed tier is more exploitable. I would love to see it gone down the road but that doesn't mean Volc is less of a problem.

Being honest I don't really care for this attitude of "you just mad cuz it +6 and swept". It's not really a constructive comment or attitude and doesn't contribute to the discussion.

rage to the side, I was saying that Volcarona evokes stronger emotion when people lose to it. Understandable since letting a pokemon get +3 (in a bad MU) makes you feel less good than strategically shuffling around for 20 turns on the back foot against other breakers/sweepers and eventually losing to it.

waterpon, Kyurem, these actually put a lot of pressure on team building. Volcarona doesn’t even hold a candle to the pressure they put. Although as mentioned previously, they have their flaws and they add value in a “new paradigm” meta of so many super strong threats

let’s be a little more specific about why people hate volc, because it has a few different Tera options to win specific MUs based on the Tera/moveset. This isn’t a team builder problem, it’s complaining about the MUs. The heat will cool down a little, just like it did with gouging fire and walking wake.

 

[Moyashi]

rage to the side, I was saying that Volcarona evokes stronger emotion when people lose to it. Understandable since letting a pokemon get +3 (in a bad MU) makes you feel less good than strategically shuffling around for 20 turns on the back foot against other breakers/sweepers and eventually losing to it.

waterpon, Kyurem, these actually put a lot of pressure on team building. Volcarona doesn’t even hold a candle to the pressure they put. Although as mentioned previously, they have their flaws and they add value in a “new paradigm” meta of so many super strong threats

let’s be a little more specific about why people hate volc, because it has a few different Tera options to win specific MUs based on the Tera/moveset. This isn’t a team builder problem, it’s complaining about the MUs. The heat will cool down a little, just like it did with gouging fire and walking wake.

It has nothing to do with "emotion". It's simply an unbalanced pokemon that has too much versatility and volatility to be a balanced presence in the tier. Waterpon and Kyurem place pressure on the builder, a lot, but Volcarona places pressure in a way that doesn't really have consistent counterplay. What may be good into one set can struggle or just lose to another. And Volc can potentially end games if it gets into that groove and sets up right, tera making this very easy in how it bypasses supposed counterplay.

It doesn't have "a few" types. I'm not sure why you'd think that. This mon's ability to adapt to counterplay and the way it is polarizing results in a match up focus to it that isn't desirable either. Gouging and Wake don't have the potential to end games so quickly and can be limited as well as accounted for. People managed to adapt to it. Volc just adapts to people trying to account for it. That's the problem.

 

[Heatranator]

rage to the side, I was saying that Volcarona evokes stronger emotion when people lose to it. Understandable since letting a pokemon get +3 (in a bad MU) makes you feel less good than strategically shuffling around for 20 turns on the back foot against other breakers/sweepers and eventually losing to it.

waterpon, Kyurem, these actually put a lot of pressure on team building. Volcarona doesn’t even hold a candle to the pressure they put. Although as mentioned previously, they have their flaws and they add value in a “new paradigm” meta of so many super strong threats

let’s be a little more specific about why people hate volc, because it has a few different Tera options to win specific MUs based on the Tera/moveset. This isn’t a team builder problem, it’s complaining about the MUs. The heat will cool down a little, just like it did with gouging fire and walking wake.

I don't get what you are trying in the first sentence, you will feel bad if you lose to any mon you feel is 'broken'. This does not affect how broken a mon is to any sort of serious degree, so I think that using this as an arguement is not really a good one. I would suggest dropping it since people are going to focus on that and we can truly focus on whether volc is broken or not. (I can see where this arguement would go and I don't like where it is headed, it will just end in rude comments on both sides and we should avoid that at all costs).
I would argue volc does put as much strain on the team builder as both waterpon and kyurem, if not more. This issue is that these tera options vastly change its counterplay and accounting for each one is not healthy. For example, specially defensive gliscor may look like a good answer, but then it tera'd water and obliterated that mon. This also deals with heatran very effectively and now your supposed 'counters' which cover the best sets are now gone.
Covering for all of tera ground, tera dragon, swarm+bug buzz and even tera water is not achievable in the teambuilder while also accounting for everything else. The best team combo I can think of that can deal with the most volc sets is dragonite+heatran, and even then its iffy. If something like tera rock volc came around, that would destroy the core, plus, being forced to run two mons on the same team not to instalose is not right. Thus, you have to concede resources and try to run one volc counter with a backup check as a safety net, and even then it could still win. If you winning against a mon is hoping they don't have the right tera type, that's just unhealthy. It is most certainly a team builder problem and removing volc would relieve a ton of resources that you need for other threats.

 

[Bold School]

waterpon, Kyurem, these actually put a lot of pressure on team building. Volcarona doesn’t even hold a candle to the pressure they put. Although as mentioned previously, they have their flaws and they add value in a “new paradigm” meta of so many super strong threats

This is apples to oranges. Waterpon and Kyurem are primarily wall breakers. Volcarona is a setup sweeper. Regardless of what you think of any of these mons in particular, the way they would allegedly break the game or not is entirely different. We have also seen that being hard to switch into isn't enough to get a ban, since mons like Kyurem and Gouging Fire have avoided bans.

And before someone says it, yes, Kyurem has the DD option. But the physical sweeper set on it is niche and not as good outside of the surprise factor.

 

[Ctann]

Please share replays of Volcarona overwhelming teams because of actual teambuild pressure. is the complaint because you need an entire 2 Pokémon’s to check it on the same team?

is it because your “SpDef gliscor just lost to a water Tera?”

im so confused here. A SpDef gliscor that loses to Tera water can literally be matched with any bulky dragon type, even raging bolt, a special attacker. And that volc can be punished for the high commitment play. Or .. they might not make it at all, because well, they get 2HKOd by the thunderbolt if they do.

is it because your Heatran and Dragonite lost to a tera rock volc? Really? That’s even easier to punish.

Bold School yeah they’re wall breakers or sweepers, that’s true. But they put more pressure on the team builder: that was the topic, not the role designation.

please share replays. High commits like running Tera blast and specific types to beat one team means losing consistency. I’d be curious to see a high performing volc team keep its head above the water. Or if the rest of the team carries with volc being used mostly defensively in most MUs

 

[658Greninja]

Happy 10,000th post.

In celebration. Here’s a teaser for what’s to come.

To prevent this from being a one-liner, I got a few discussion questions?

What have you been using to check Volcarona?

Any sets you find to be overlooked?

Who is your favorite mon to mess around with?

Do you plan to get reqs for this suspect? If so, with what? (You don’t have to answer the 2nd question)

Are you looking forward to WCOP?

 

[TPP]

Happy 10,000 posts

 

[Heatranator]

Happy 10,000 posts

Bro cockblocked DaddyBuzzwole

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Bro cockblocked DaddyBuzzwole

honestly i'd keep deleting my more useless/off-topic posts and sniping 10000 over and over but i'm not gonna get into a battle like that with someone who has the power to ban me

and just so this post isn't off-topic or useless, a mon i've been trying out recently on sun is slither wing. it hits insanely hard with band in the sun—not quite gouging flare blitz level, but higher than gouging outrage level—and first impression is a great revenge-killing tool. i am definitely not trying to fill a buzzwole-shaped void of any kind

 

[Ctann]

Happy 10,000th post.

In celebration. Here’s a teaser for what’s to come.

View attachment 624057

To prevent this from being a one-liner, I got a few discussion questions?

What have you been using to check Volcarona?

Any sets you find to be overlooked?

Who is your favorite mon to mess around with?

Do you plan to get reqs for this suspect? If so, with what? (You don’t have to answer the 2nd question)

Are you looking forward to WCOP?

1. I was gifted this team from heateanator, it was in regards to another discussion about the power/utility gap in OU. in this team the primary check can be your choice of garganacl or skeledirge depending on the rest of the team. Because fire type attacks are useless vs them, volc often has to reveal its coverage or Tera if it wants to proceed.

• Ground gets backup checked by dragonite and aqua jet
• Bug buzz substitute can’t even get past the first obstacle
• Water type gets covered by dragonite
• Dragon type struggles to make any progress past the initial checks
• Fairy type can’t make any progress
• Grass type can’t make any progress
• The rare electric type can actually crush this team, but so can any electric. I just accept the 10% WR against any strong volt switchers since I’m trying to not modify the team
• In a pinch, encore valiant can be sacrificed on a switch in, if necessary

2. I’m curious to see electric volcarona now, it’ll be useless vs dragons, but if it MU against teams like this, then maybe it can add spice to the Volc is OP discussion. Also curious of ghost/steel can be used viably. Tera flying hurricane in rain sounds like fun too.

3. This cycles all the time, it was primarina and whimsicott recently, probably meow next

4.no plans

5. don’t watch it, sometimes watch the replays.

 

[txlix]

What have you been using to check Volcarona?

 

[arnimacarni]

honestly i'd keep deleting my more useless/off-topic posts and sniping 10000 over and over but i'm not gonna get into a battle like that with someone who has the power to ban me

my man you did it

Any sets you find to be overlooked?

Who is your favorite mon to mess around with?

In regards to Volc in particular, I always liked the idea of Volc in rain a lot. I know rain isn't too valuable at the moment, but that unexpected Hurricane is always a pleasant surprise. I also tend to run Tera Grass Giga Drain a lot.

And for a mon that I'm enjoying a lot I'd say Pecharunt? like I know its not that great but it is super fun to use, going full physdef and just withstanding like +1 HRush from Tusk is insane. Malignant Chain is also an unhinged move.

 

[Magcargo]

1. I was gifted this team from heateanator, it was in regards to another discussion about the power/utility gap in OU. in this team the primary check can be your choice of garganacl or skeledirge depending on the rest of the team. Because fire type attacks are useless vs them, volc often has to reveal its coverage or Tera if it wants to proceed.

• Ground gets backup checked by dragonite and aqua jet
• Bug buzz substitute can’t even get past the first obstacle
• Water type gets covered by dragonite
• Dragon type struggles to make any progress past the initial checks
• Fairy type can’t make any progress
• Grass type can’t make any progress
• The rare electric type can actually crush this team, but so can any electric. I just accept the 10% WR against any strong volt switchers since I’m trying to not modify the team
• In a pinch, encore valiant can be sacrificed on a switch in, if necessary

2. I’m curious to see electric volcarona now, it’ll be useless vs dragons, but if it MU against teams like this, then maybe it can add spice to the Volc is OP discussion. Also curious of ghost/steel can be used viably.

3. This cycles all the time, it was primarina and whimsicott recently, probably meow next

4.no plans

5. don’t watch it, sometimes watch the replays.

Aye, as a fellow Meow enjoyer, share with me any tech / cool sets you try out with the mon. The only builds I really enjoy it on are those Ting-Lu / Gking / Corv OR Skarm builds where it is a strong progress maker with Knock Off, U-turn, and Protean Triple Axel vs Gliscor. That being said, it feels a lot harder to deviate from this set compared to earlier metagames, where it was easier to get other sets like Black Glasses Overgrow to work. The main alternative set I've liked is Choice Scarf.

 

[Heatranator]

Aye, as a fellow Meow enjoyer, share with me any tech / cool sets you try out with the mon. The only builds I really enjoy it on are those Ting-Lu / Gking / Corv OR Skarm builds where it is a strong progress maker with Knock Off, U-turn, and Protean Triple Axel vs Gliscor. That being said, it feels a lot harder to deviate from this set compared to earlier metagames, where it was easier to get other sets like Black Glasses Overgrow felt better. The main alternative set I've liked is Choice Scarf.

One set I am interested in is toxic spikes meow. Of course, it does share competition with glimmora in that department, but the speed stat and knock off means that it can really disrupt a team. Tera dark knock off destroys the most common toxic spikes absorbers in clodsire and glowking, clodsire is 2hit ko'd by it while glowking is annihilated. It can also use triple axel to make sure flying types don't get to come in for free.
Meowscarada @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Toxic Spikes
Chose overgrow over protean because it means that knock is always stab, though protean is fair. I have lots of innovative sets that I'll share at some point, but I'm too tired rn.

 

[Anchor9]

Who thinks Loaded Dice Battle Bond Greninja is a good idea? I’m asking it because I’ve seen a lot of Water Shurikan Loaded Dice stuff in STABmons, so how would that work with Greninja, having a 60-75 BP priority move seems like an easy way to activate Battle Bond and annihilate HO based teams.

 

[FayaWizard]

Who thinks Loaded Dice Battle Bond Greninja is a good idea? I’m asking it because I’ve seen a lot of Water Shurikan Loaded Dice stuff in STABmons, so how would that work with Greninja, having a 60-75 BP priority move seems like an easy way to activate Battle Bond and annihilate HO based teams.

The problem is Greninja really is not that strong without Life Orb/Choice Specs, with a mediocre 103 special attack you're really going to struggle to pick up KOs even with your coverage. If you try to revenge kill threats instead for the boosts, 60-75 bp coming off of base 103 spattack against monsters like Roaring Moon or Volcarona really doesn't cut it nowadays. It's a shame, but Greninja just doesn't have the power to truly compete in OU. You also get beat by 2 of the 3 most common priority mons (Grassy Glide and Thunderclap), and Kingambit can easily tank a hit even at +1 and kill back.